Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[ocnblu]

It is time to make Pontiac back into a brand that finally, after at least 3 decades, fulfills its promise of driving excitement. Driving excitement = RWD... simple as that. FWD = appliance... simple as that, especially on midsize and larger cars.

Let Volkswagen make their GTI... let Mini make their Cooper... Chevy has the sweet Cobalt SS... those cars are compatible and correct with FWD. Pontiac needs RWD... it is plain as day.

Edited April 20, 2007 by ocnblu

[CaddyXLR-V]

Lets say Pontiac goes all RWD, and their volume is less than half of what they do now. Are those people that currently buy Pontiacs now, going to be so depressed that they never buy a new car again? Just because they can't get their Pontiac in FWD so they can drive in the snow? Probably not. They will still buy cars, just not Pontiacs. Most likely Chevy or Saturn, since they are currently at a similar price point, especially if the new Chevy and Saturns are drastically improved, as they appear to be. So the G5 and G6 buyers abandon Pontiac, and now buy Astras and Auras, why is that so bad? Then where will Pontiacs new buyers come from? My guess is Dodge, Nissan, probably some from Honda, maybe even some from BMW that don't care for the extra luxuries like IDrive, and just want a fun to drive RWD car, not to mention existing Pontiac/Chevy buyers that want more performance that isn't currently offered without spending an additional $10k for that BMW they can't afford. Basically, the less cars Pontiac sells that are similar to Chevy and Saturn, the more buyers there are available for actual Chevy and Saturns. GM can't make a Saturn for everyone, a Chevy for everyone, a Cadillac for everyone, a Pontiac for everyone etc. because then we have 80 watered down cars that excel at nothing and are mediocre at everything because they all try to be everything to everyone. Oh wait, that's what we have now. GM needs to use it's brands as an advantage so they can be more focused than the competition, instead of as a disadvantage as they currently are now.

Edited April 18, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[hyperv6]

It is time to make Pontiac back into a brand that finally, after at least 3 decades, fulfills its promise of driving excitement. Driving excitement = RWD... simple as that. FWD = appliance... simple as that, especially on midsize and larger cars.

Let Volkswagen make their GTI... let Mini make their Cooper... those cars are compatible and correct with FWD. Pontiac needs RWD... it is plain as day.

Well said! Pontiac needs to be about Performance and Image. That is what sells in this classs.

Pontiac need to be more than a car payment or just transportation. It should be a car for the enthusiast and become a car you want to be seen in.

As for the Aztec, yes it is a good vehicle for transporation and and a low payment but it does little for one's image or soul.

Drive up to a big meeting in a Aztec and tell the world your cheap sorry frugul or underpaid and lack self awareness but likes to carry a lot of cargo. Also if I become homeless I can live in it with the tent option. [just kidding!]

Drive up in a 440 HP G8 GXP and they will see a person who enjoys the drive and has the means to afford it at a good price.

Today the a large part of the public under 60 years old is very image driven. They have to wear a certin kind of Jeans, wear a specific brand shoe and eat at that one popular resturant. These are not the people who drive Impala's or Camry's so what better thqan to let Pontiac serve this group vs Chevy who plays to the transportation and price crowd.

[hyperv6]

Just since this has been fun let see who really know about driving in the snow.

I will start here.

I have driven in 27 winters In the Great lakes Snow Belt Approx Average 120 plus inches of snow a winter. Only one year on Bias Snow tires 26 year on All Season radials.

All were in RWD cars or 2 wheel drive trucks.

Times stuck one. My own fault for driving too fast and sticking it nose first in the ditch under braking. A FWD would have ended up in the same place.

Lets see what you have under your belt?

[Camino LS6]

Driven in every snowstorm since'79

Plowed every snowstorm since '85

None of it in a FWD

Pre-'85 RWD car

Post- '85 4X4 plow truck

On occasion I have driven a FWD in the snow, drove ok but ground clearance sucked.

EDIT: Anyone remember the Blizzard of '83? I drove from Philadelphia to Saratoga Springs,NY through the height of it.

And I did it in a 1965 Oldsmobile F-85

[Robert Hall]

9 years in Great Lakes snow winters (Cleveland/Akron area, Ann Arbor, Mi, Chicago)

6 of those years with '80s RWD cars with snow tires, 3 with an '80s 4x4 SUV

10 years in Colorado Front Range winters, all with 4x4 SUVs.

Never had the need for FWD.

[balthazar]

23 years of NJ/NY winters (usually mild, but have been in terrific snow & ice storms), never shied from driving in any weather, never used snow tires, FWD or 4WD, never got stuck.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well I am born and raised in the Snow belt of Lake Erie We get more snow here than most parts of the country.

I have driven RWD for years with All season tires with nary a problem for near 30 years. The only car I ever had much problem with was a Big Block 1972 GMC Sprint SP with an open rear. All I had to do is add some weight in the rear and it was fine.

As for AWD cars here other than Subaru they are not a common sight here. for RWD cars and trucks they are everywhere.

Mecedes and BMW must not be affraid to stay in the Cleveland Akron and Canton area as they have a very strong network and even have sold a few SLR Mclarens along the way. [DId not see that one in the snow]. Heck the Benz dealer in Akron is all new as is the BMW dealer and both well laid out new style dealers not old buildings. Most of all there cars here are RWD as AWD is rare for them.

The only cars I see stuck in the snow or median are 4X4 people who flat lost it under braking as they stop no better than RWD or FWD and don't have enough sense to understand that.

I get the feeling the problem lies with the dumbing down of the American driver. Let's face it people drove for 80's years in poor weather in RWD vehicles and did so on some of the poorest bias tires and with no elctronic controls. Just about everyone got where they were going and never complained. Todays driver are as unskill since the automobile was created. Even wagon drivers attained better control skills than many of todays drivers.

Today you have cars and tires that do most of the work and driving skill has declined because of it. I fear stability control will rob future generations of the skill of correcting a slide. This is a skill that could save theirs or some one else life. I have Stability control on my one car. It is a benifit on FWD to get it to turn under acceleration. But it is not fool proof and one can over power Stablility control then the car will spin anyway. If it does would todays driver be able to save it? I do not believe so!

I have no problem with GM selling FWD cars as they do have their place for the unskilled and non performance driver. But when you sell Pontiac you need to sell it to be different than Chevy. You need to sell Pontiac to it's strength as a performance car. Pontiac needs to be different to make it in the future and no longer has to make cars to cover the entire scope of buyers.

I think Chevy and Saturn will cover the FWD market well for GM, do we really need three divisions selling the same car? Isn't that part of the problem that got us to this point in the first place?

As for RWD in the snow, If you can drive one in the snow learn car control as it is not that hard. In truth it can be quite fun and make you a much better driver even in a FWD.

How long till the day of the self guided car on the electronic highway comes? We already have a car that tries to park it's self if you have all day. If you can't park it then get out of it you should not be driving.

Do not under estimate the snow states we have delt with this for years and we are not affraid of a little white stuff.

The 3 Series is a compact...not "almost a subcompact." EPA classifications are pretty black and white, even if you don't like the answer. 3340lbs is on par with the other cars that compete with the 3 Series: Saab 9-3, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4, Lexus IS250 and Mercedes Benz C-Class (edmunds.com). All 2WD sedans. The true irony here is that the 3 Series is one of the few RWD sedans which offers optional AWD...a configuration which you deem mandatory for all future GM RWD models...and now you're complaining that it's too heavy!

Actually, I find it difficult to follow any point you are trying to make as you drift between your needs and your perception of the needs of every other driver in North America when you voice your opinions. People buy cars for a variety of reasons -- basic transportation, as an investment, to race on weekends, to haul their families or to have fun while traveling from point A to point B. The list is much longer I'm sure and depends on factors such as life stage, income level, geographic location and lifestyle activities.

I was making a comparison of the BMW to the Ford to get your attention. You saw fit to gloss over trying to see why I bought a BMW, so I saw fit to extend you the same courtesy. You appear to feel your needs and purchasing decisions should apply to me as well. They do not.

Please, enough with the sweeping generalities of "most folks" and "people." Without a verifiable factual reference, its all your opinion. My CPO BMW had no issues, you heard wrong. Hence, I bought another one and I don't make monthly payments.

So what you've stated above is that you want a vehicle that provides basic transportation with lots of room to haul your family, styling is minimally important and that price is your top priority. None of your requirements have made reference to styling or the overall driving experience of the car. As Pontiac is trying to return to their performance roots, they are likely not the brand in the GM family that will fulfill your needs. Your needs would be better served by Chevrolet. You also appear to fit the profile of a Toyota buyer as well. The transportation appliance is not consistent with GM's performance role for Pontiac.

RWD drive vehicles are intended for buyers who value performance...that does not appear to be you based on your above stated buying preferences. GM offers a variety of other brands with vehicles intended for a mass market, family oriented audience.

Discussing the volume of units sold without taking into account the profit/loss per unit is a meaningless discussion. Retail vs. Fleet sales will also have a huge impact on the discussion.

I think it all comes down to this: There is no need whatsoever for every GM brand to offer FWD/AWD - especially Pontiac. Would you buy a FWD Hummer?

If Pontiac truly moves to an all performance lineup, a FWD Pontiac would be as absurd as that Hummer.

Reg is a tool, therefore he thinks like a tool. Don't blame him for his absurd comments, he's just a tool. :wink:

[Camino LS6]

Now play nice,boys.

[Drew Dowdell]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: Edited April 18, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Camino LS6]

You just don't get the concept that Pontiac doesn't need to sell 100k of anything to be profitable , do you?

Pontiac is a flavor, not the ice cream.

[Camino LS6]

That's why they also sell Buicks and GMCs.

Why is that so hard to grasp?

They are like a Chevy dealer only they use three brands to move the same volume, giving us a more focused product for each brand.

That's a better way to do business in 2007 if you ask me.

[hyperv6]

The truth is GM really only needs 2-3 divisions and Pontiac, Buick and GMC are not any of the three.

To Give them a chance to make it they are now being operated like Hummer and service the specialty crowd.

The days of selling 100K of any Pontiac are long over and not even expected.

It is easier to turn BPG into s nich dealer vs killing it as they still have great name equity, dealers they have to still take care of etc.

The new way of operation with 4-5 models each is going to give one dealer enough volume to make it with cars that will make more per unit if the public is offered something more than a warmed over Chevy.

Pontiac has left the days of no running water, no electricity, childhoods of walking back and forth without boots in a snowstorm and selling at high volume.

It is time to let Pontiac and Buick do what they do best and make more money on one car vs less on 3 others.

It is he who make more money wins not who sells the most cars. The bottom line is profit not volume.

[Oracle of Delphi]

They are like a Chevy dealer only they use three brands to move the same volume

Isn't that sad!

Edited April 18, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Isn't that sad!

No, not really.

[z28luvr01]

Isn't that sad!

I don't think so. What's sadder is the fact that the Torrent, G5, Montana/SV6, Aztek, Terraza, and Rainier are or were at one time Buicks or Pontiacs. Under the B-P-G umbrella, vehicles like these will not need to exist anymore. GM effectively eliminated two underperforming full-line brands by combining Buick, Pontiac, and GMC. These three combined will only need to perform like ONE full-line brand, and each brand in the channel can be given a tightly focused mission that plays to its hertage.

[Casket Demon]

I'm really starting to like the GTO now. When it first hit the scene I was "Meh" about it, but now......I have a real hankering 2 get one.

[FAPTurbo]

I slowly grew to love the GTO, even though it is not sold in my country. At first, I just regarded it as a 'Cavalier' on 'roids, like so many other people, but having driven other Holdens, I began to appreciate the Monaro/GTO.

As for the FWD/RWD argument, I do believe Pontiac should have one FWD vehicle.

It IS possible to make a sporty, fun to drive, and great FWD vehicle. Just ask Prelude owners. Pontiac needs it's own 'Prelude' that will have distinctive design, and be offered at an affordable price-point, along with an efficient, sporty engine to get us kids into the dealership.

[Northstar]

basically we all seem to want Buick to sell about 75,000 cars a year now, Pontiac about 75,000 cars a year and whatever GMC sells? Hmm, nice idea. Get those sales down and starve them just enough to make it that much easier to kill them all off with one stroke of the pen. i.e. another saab type brand is what you want pontiac to be. 3 models, no volume, no ability to draw mainstream purchasers in the showroom.

won't fly love it when mitsubishi outsells pontiac under your plan.

Nice for the dealer who at one time had combined BPG sales of 500,000 + GMC.

It sure would be nice to pad and enable that new RWD utopia of 150,000 P/B's a year (with no guarantees of profit at all...the market changes fast and GM has no history of fast model changes and updates) with at least one mainstream vehicle that would pull in another 100k in sales. Lest ye forget, many folks who have had Pontiac or Buick or GMC and vice versa have had more than one of these brands already for a really long time. it's not like BPG under one roof is a new thing pulled out of Lutz's ass yesterday. Many of dealers near my hometown when I was a kid 35+ years ago were already Buick and Pontiac and GMC.

It's not like we get rid of the RWD cars its just you have to have some other diverse offerings so as not to be exclusionary.

basically you want BPG dealers to sell 80% GMC trucks and the other 20% is B/P scraps. chinese lacrosses.

I'd be giddy if the G8 can sell 100k a year, but it can't if its imported and lacks an AWD option.

I bet the dealer would be happy to sell 80% GMC trucks and 20% B/P scraps.

Before we come to any great conclusions here, let's examine what BPG dealers had prior to the 07 model year vs. what they will likely be having:

2006 MY:

Solstice, GTO, Grand Prix, G6, Torrent, SV6, G5

Rendezvous, Rainier, Terraza, Lucerne, LaCrosse

Sierra, Yukon/XL, Envoy/XL, Canyon, Savana

Future: I crossed out what's gone and bolded what's new:

Solstice GTO, Grand Prix, G6, Torrent, SV6, G5 G8 (replaces GP), Alpha Car (replaces G6 and G5), Solstice Targa

Rendezvous, Rainier, Terraza Enclave, RWD/AWD Lucerne, LaCrosse

Sierra, Yukon/XL, Envoy/XL, Canyon, Savana, Acadia, Theta X-Over (replaces Torrent), possible X-over between Acadia and Theta X-over

So basically, the dealers are getting a GMC Torrent (which should sell better), the Acadia instead of the Envoy, The Enclave instead of Rendezvous, Rainier, and Terraza, a RWD/AWD Lucerne instead of a FWD Lucerne, G8 instead of GP, and everything they're losing didn't sell well anyways (no minivans but the Acadia and Enclave are way better, no G5 but who cares, and you think they're going to complain? The vehicles that are getting changed don't sell that well anyways with the exception of the G6, and it will have the "I want a new car like the 3-Series/G35/CTS/C-Classbut can't afford one of them" crowd all to itself.

There is also no reason the 2nd Gen G8 won't have AWD, or the Alpha car.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I agree with you reg, Lutz will kill Pontiac off with this lunatic strategy of his. It would be better to kill Pontiac off now, than let it linger on and die a slow painful death.

As I said, I can't wait for that first foreign ship to unload it's cargo of G8's in 2008 so we can watch GM marketshare hit rock-bottom. Like Oldsmobile customers of yor, GM will hand Pontiac customers to the Japanese and Germans.

Good plan Bob Putz!

[Camino LS6]

[Robert Hall]

... change the fact that none of you have any clue about where the car market as a whole and buyers are and where the money is, as opposed to yourselves.

Ok, and you know everything thing about the car market? What are your qualifications? Buying an Aztek doesn't count..

[Northstar]

the alpha is a nice idea but it coming here anytime in 4 years or even at all is a pipe dream.

Well, you should be happy in that case, that means the FWD G6 sticks around for longer.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I slowly grew to love the GTO, even though it is not sold in my country. At first, I just regarded it as a 'Cavalier' on 'roids, like so many other people, but having driven other Holdens, I began to appreciate the Monaro/GTO.

As for the FWD/RWD argument, I do believe Pontiac should have one FWD vehicle.

It IS possible to make a sporty, fun to drive, and great FWD vehicle. Just ask Prelude owners. Pontiac needs it's own 'Prelude' that will have distinctive design, and be offered at an affordable price-point, along with an efficient, sporty engine to get us kids into the dealership.

Whos to say prelude owners don't apsire to own S2000s and Supras but can't afford them?

Saturn WILL have that fun to drive compact, it's called the Astra.

Edited April 19, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[BigPontiac]

To succeed today, you have to set priorities, decide what you stand for. You can't do all things for all people. -- Lee Iacocca

link

[Northstar]

i aspire for a lots of cars and can't afford those either. that shouldn't keep them from building a car i can afford and want to buy.

its amazing how nothing has changed over time. RWD handles better, but FWD has more efficient packaging, is weather friendly, and is cheaper to make. No no duh which config. the more mainstream cars get.

the supra was so popular they don't sell it here and honda moves SO many of those S2000's. Note honda has to stockpile their showrooms with mainstream cars to stay in business. Oh, we should keep our doors open to sell cars just so the guys who have money and time to burn doing 'track racing' have something to drive. yeah. there's a reason the camaro and caprice and rwd cutlass and regals, etc. were killed before.

Reg, Honda has to have mainstream cars, Honda is the only brand (besides Acura) they sell. GM has Chevy, Saturn, and Buick to sell you if you want your mainstream car. I don't see why you won't be able to find something from one of them. You want a FWD midsize sedan? How about a Malibu if you want something rather plain? An Aura if you want something a bit sporty? A LaCrosse if you want something more luxurious? If you want a small mainstream car, you can get an Aveo, Cobalt, HHR, or Astra. How many choices does Toyota offer you? They offer you the Camry, Avalon, or ES350. None of them are sporty though, so Pontiac wouldn't compete with them anyways. Then they have the Corolla, Matrix, or Scions if you want something smaller. Honda gives you the Accord, and for something smaller the Civic or Fit. If GM was Pontiac and nothing else as Honda is Honda, as Nissan is Nissan and nothing else, and as Toyota has only Toyota and Scion for mainstream buyers, then yes, they would need cars that appeal to mainstream buyers. However, Pontiac can fill a niche and still make money buy not producing mainstream vehicles.

You're saying that every buyer wants something mainstream, but there are many people on here that have demonstrated that not everyone wants something that's mainstream. Some people like to have something a little different, and don't treat their cars as appliances.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Reg, Honda has to have mainstream cars, Honda is the only brand (besides Acura) they sell. GM has Chevy, Saturn, and Buick to sell you if you want your mainstream car. I don't see why you won't be able to find something from one of them. You want a FWD midsize sedan? How about a Malibu if you want something rather plain? An Aura if you want something a bit sporty? A LaCrosse if you want something more luxurious? If you want a small mainstream car, you can get an Aveo, Cobalt, HHR, or Astra. How many choices does Toyota offer you? They offer you the Camry, Avalon, or ES350. None of them are sporty though, so Pontiac wouldn't compete with them anyways. Then they have the Corolla, Matrix, or Scions if you want something smaller. Honda gives you the Accord, and for something smaller the Civic or Fit. If GM was Pontiac and nothing else as Honda is Honda, as Nissan is Nissan and nothing else, and as Toyota has only Toyota and Scion for mainstream buyers, then yes, they would need cars that appeal to mainstream buyers. However, Pontiac can fill a niche and still make money buy not producing mainstream vehicles.

You're saying that every buyer wants something mainstream, but there are many people on here that have demonstrated that not everyone wants something that's mainstream. Some people like to have something a little different, and don't treat their cars as appliances.

Reg, you can have anything you want, just as long as it's not a Pontiac!

[Cory Wolfe]

Reg, Honda has to have mainstream cars, Honda is the only brand (besides Acura) they sell. GM has Chevy, Saturn, and Buick to sell you if you want your mainstream car. I don't see why you won't be able to find something from one of them. You want a FWD midsize sedan? How about a Malibu if you want something rather plain? An Aura if you want something a bit sporty? A LaCrosse if you want something more luxurious? If you want a small mainstream car, you can get an Aveo, Cobalt, HHR, or Astra. How many choices does Toyota offer you? They offer you the Camry, Avalon, or ES350. None of them are sporty though, so Pontiac wouldn't compete with them anyways. Then they have the Corolla, Matrix, or Scions if you want something smaller. Honda gives you the Accord, and for something smaller the Civic or Fit. If GM was Pontiac and nothing else as Honda is Honda, as Nissan is Nissan and nothing else, and as Toyota has only Toyota and Scion for mainstream buyers, then yes, they would need cars that appeal to mainstream buyers. However, Pontiac can fill a niche and still make money buy not producing mainstream vehicles.

You're saying that every buyer wants something mainstream, but there are many people on here that have demonstrated that not everyone wants something that's mainstream. Some people like to have something a little different, and don't treat their cars as appliances.

Pontiac is no longer a mainstream brand. It is a niche brand. It's not supposed to appeal to everyone. If you only like bland, boring, FWD appliances, you're not going to like Pontiac. It doesn't matter if Pontiac sells 50k vehicles or 500k vehicles. GM making money off the brand is what matters. Sales numbers are moot. A brand like Pontiac doesn't need a FWD appliance just like Hummer doesn't need one. It doesn't go together.

Now, some advice... Get over it and stop fooling yourself.

[turbo200]

reg's saying he already doesn't like theoretical cars that he hasn't ever even experienced. that's called qualified...

NOT

reg's made his point clear. he wants pontiac to remain FWD. now whenever he argues that FWD should remain at Pontiac, just politely disagree with him and skip over his post. that way the problem will go away and three pages of solid points won't have to be made to please one person. reg doesn't need convincing, he is arleady convinced he is right. the facts he gives us like 40% of G8 sales are missing already because it lacks AWD are totally true and real facts.

[Camino LS6]

If nothing else, this thread has been an exercise in fleshing ot the rationale behind Pontiac's new direction. For that reason alone the thread retains value - so I won't lock it as useless.

[hyperv6]

GM, Ford and Chrysler were the last compnies to try to make all their brands try to be all things to everyone.

All three were the ones that have gotten into trouble because in being all to every one it weakened their product. Think of GM as not a Multi Tool but as each brand as Box of dedicated Snap On tools and each have a specific job.

Now look at Mercury as a Multi Tool. Mercury is just doing the same job as Ford and trying to be all to everyone. If Ford had made Mercury more of a Lexus. Also if Ford had dedicated Lincoln to fight Benz and BMW like Caddy VS living off of cheap sales to fleet and old people with the Town Car There would be no need for a Wat Forward program.

I am sorry there is change you don't like and just as in life things change where we all have to grow up get a job and die. In each fase you try to get to good and take the best but the bad also comes along.

GM only needs Three brands at best. Chevy Saturn and Caddy. All the others are not a have to have brand and if they copy the others they only steal sales from them and benifit GM little. The only way to save these brands is to dedicate them to a specific job and make them do that job well. If not Buck and Pontiac would die a sad death. I much would rather see them give an attempt to save them with good product than a buch af half A$$ cars like they have today. Just let GM show us the product in the next few years and I think you will be suprised of the change and and comback Pontiac will make.

Just look at Caddy and when they were tring to be something for all. We had Cavalier Caddies and other messes on the road. Now look today at Caddy tring to serve the high end and getting the respect for doing so. They don't sell in great volumes as they have but they are making more money per car and have benifited greatly with the changes.

I am glad to see GM as a quality box of tools vs trying to wee them tune up a car brand with a multi tool. We have enough stripped bolts over the last 30 years.

[FAPTurbo]

Look, when I advocate a FWD machine for Pontiac, I don't want envision a Grand-Am or G6 or G5. I envision a small vehicle along the lines of, say, a Mazda3, something that is of higher calibre than a Chevrolet.

I've met drivers who love their Mazda3's for their looks, great performance, great handling and overall satisfaction. THAT is the audience a small, FWD Pontiac should take aim at, because those people had never even considered a Chevrolet Cobalt, save one dude who only went to the dealer to see just how much they'd mark down the price.

I will once again reiterate that Pontiac only needs ONE FWD car, that is more expensive than a Cobalt, but cheaper than the upcoming RWD offerings. It has to be able to be tossed around, it has to have a very "Pontiac" interior, and it has to have looks to boot, and it most certainly cannot look like a rebadge. It has to be a bit of a competitor against Cobalt SS, but exude a different personality, perhaps one with a bit of a 'Euro' flair.

[hyperv6]

Look, when I advocate a FWD machine for Pontiac, I don't want envision a Grand-Am or G6 or G5. I envision a small vehicle along the lines of, say, a Mazda3, something that is of higher calibre than a Chevrolet.

I've met drivers who love their Mazda3's for their looks, great performance, great handling and overall satisfaction. THAT is the audience a small, FWD Pontiac should take aim at, because those people had never even considered a Chevrolet Cobalt, save one dude who only went to the dealer to see just how much they'd mark down the price.

I will once again reiterate that Pontiac only needs ONE FWD car, that is more expensive than a Cobalt, but cheaper than the upcoming RWD offerings. It has to be able to be tossed around, it has to have a very "Pontiac" interior, and it has to have looks to boot, and it most certainly cannot look like a rebadge. It has to be a bit of a competitor against Cobalt SS, but exude a different personality, perhaps one with a bit of a 'Euro' flair.

I agree with having a FWD like the Mazda at GM but that's what Saturn is targeting with their new products. Keep in mind we have not seen the Red Line Aura and other new models like the Astra yet. A quality pemieum FWD with Euro flair is Saturns new mission.

If this car was done as a Pontiac it would be a warmed over Cobalt or what ever they have at that time. I think the G5 is a nice car but not really much different from the Chevy to capture that many sales. Since Saturn already has the Opel version I would not expect Pontiac to get one of theirs.

Either way sales are so small on G5 that it does not earn enough funding to make it a car of its own.

Now if you could rebody a Saab as a Pontiac with a Saab engine we might be onto something.

I love the G5 over the Cobalt but Chevy sells more so Chevy get priority and Pontiac will get the leftovers every time.

If Pontiac is to live it needs to be different RWD of even a FWD. Give someone a reason to buy other than a redone nose and wheels.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I will once again reiterate that Pontiac only needs ONE FWD car, that is more expensive than a Cobalt, but cheaper than the upcoming RWD offerings. It has to be able to be tossed around, it has to have a very "Pontiac" interior, and it has to have looks to boot, and it most certainly cannot look like a rebadge. It has to be a bit of a competitor against Cobalt SS, but exude a different personality, perhaps one with a bit of a 'Euro' flair.

You just described the Saturn Astra, except for the Pontiac interior.

Actually I've had 4 Pontiacs with Pontiac interiors... they're crap. The GTO interior is 1000 times better.

[turbo200]

Look, when I advocate a FWD machine for Pontiac, I don't want envision a Grand-Am or G6 or G5. I envision a small vehicle along the lines of, say, a Mazda3, something that is of higher calibre than a Chevrolet.

I've met drivers who love their Mazda3's for their looks, great performance, great handling and overall satisfaction. THAT is the audience a small, FWD Pontiac should take aim at, because those people had never even considered a Chevrolet Cobalt, save one dude who only went to the dealer to see just how much they'd mark down the price.

I will once again reiterate that Pontiac only needs ONE FWD car, that is more expensive than a Cobalt, but cheaper than the upcoming RWD offerings. It has to be able to be tossed around, it has to have a very "Pontiac" interior, and it has to have looks to boot, and it most certainly cannot look like a rebadge. It has to be a bit of a competitor against Cobalt SS, but exude a different personality, perhaps one with a bit of a 'Euro' flair.

I'm an advocate for a small FWD [or RWD], possibly based on Gamma, or the NG Astra. My RSX is a perfect car for the new Pontiac, where Pontiac would like to be at. Just envisioning that kind of car at Pontiac right now is so unbeleiveable far-fetched and hopeful. But they can do it, if they get thier act together. Will that take 20 years? or will it never happen?

I can only keep dreaming. However, FWD does work in my car, incredibly well. But it's a Honda. Not a GM. GM hasn't made a FWD that is satisfying to me. But that's not my issue with FWD, that's an issue I have with GM. Because FWD can be fun. Witness the Accord, Mazda3 and 6. Probably Saabs, though I've never actually driven one. The reason I believe Pontiac should be RWD is because they are the "Driving Excitement" division, and no other platform in existance signifies driving excitment to me like RWD does. Besides, GM has Saturn, Chevrolet, Buick, even Saab in its arsenal to handle for mainstream FWD sedans. Making Pontiac into a RWD on the cheap with high sophistication, wild and gorgeous styling, and great interiors, sounds like a huge recipe for succcess to me, especially in the Sun Belt. But I've never advocated against AWD.

Reg, you will have plenty of FWD to choose from. As it is, the G6 barely sells 200k/year. Pontiac barely sells 400k/year. Do you know that in the mid-90's they used to sell more than a million/year? Buick now sells less in America than Oldsmobile did when it died.

When I see dramatic shifts, slides away from a once acceptable brand, I see the need for dire changes.

[turbo200]

To add to this, I finally got to experience a G6 first hand. The engine was okay. I didn't have much time to drive it. I spent about 10 minutes driving it. I drove it hard enough to cement my impression, but the owner said something like that grows on you. It felt huge to drive. Yes, going from my car is a huge jump, but I'm used to driving lots of different cars, I used to sell cars. I know what the Accord drives like like the back of my hand. I can say the steering is what killed most of the experience for me. That is what aided the "big car feel". But even the suspension felt heavy-handed and didn't corner like I hoped it would. There was defiitely no driving excitement in that car. The Accord V6 is ten thousand times better driver, in terms of feedback, entertainment, and even refinement. The Accord that was released in 2002.

[Drew Dowdell]

fold the brand if your only gonna carry niche models.

Mini?

Porsche?

Hummer?

Edited April 20, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Cory Wolfe]

and that's my point. take away that G6 (which by the way 200k of anything today is a phenomenal success) and pontiac is down to 100k and at that point the brand folds and dealers go under.

Can you read?

Sales numbers don't mean a damn thing. Profits do. The sooner your realize that, the sooner you'll stop making a fool out of yourself. Say it with me: Profits not sales. If sales dictated everything, there wouldn't be a such thing as a niche brand. There is and they survive. Not to mention that Pontiac will also have security of being sold along two other other niche brands in a single sales channel. If you think Pontiac will bold, you're a dumbass, and that goes for anyone.

Edited April 20, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Oracle of Delphi]

Mini?

Porsche?

Hummer?

Pontiac is none of those brands and no one, say it with me :no one will pay the prices Pontiac needs to survive as a niche brand", except a few Gearheads! Kiss Pontiac good-bye, I have!

Edited April 20, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[BigPontiac]

and that's my point. take away that G6 (which by the way 200k of anything today is a phenomenal success) and pontiac is down to 100k and at that point the brand folds and dealers go under.

As 100K of those likely go to rental car companies, today's typical Pontiac buyer is Avis. Kia and Hyundai will be happy to fill the rental car niche in Pontiac's absence. Pontiac needs to get back into the retail car business -- targeting buyers who value performance and are willing to pay a premium to get it. RWD differentiates Pontiac from Chevy and Saturn, provides an entry level RWD performance brand to slot under Cadillac which can share platforms with Holden and Cadillac (outside NA). FWD needs to be cleansed from the Pontiac gene pool. If they can swing offering AWD as an option, great. If they can't, it shouldn't hold up offering an all RWD line-up to get an incremental sales volume of 25% from AWD. Sell desirable cars to a focused audience at a profit.

i want to try the aura, i like the aura, maybe that's close. but the thing is for me, the aura's interior is not sporty enough and the exterior is even still a bit conservative. this is where i think a G6 needs to be. the current G6 just needs way better execution.

You seem to be describing that you want a 2008 Chevy Malibu. GM makes the car you want, just not as a Pontiac. Edited April 20, 2007 by BigPontiac

[regfootball]

Mini?

Porsche?

Hummer?

the Mini is reported as the "BMW Mini"...mini is a model.

Porsche has like what, 200 dealers to support? Small dealers with small buildings and not a lot of real estate to support. average model is what, 75 grand? pontiac will never manage even half that anytime soon.

Hummer if not already, should be tacked on to cadillac dealers. i've already seen one newly built Hummer dealer go out of business. I've already seen Saab dealers moving to cadillac locations.

i don't want a malibu. its not sporty enough. what don't you get about that concept. if the aura is not sporty enough, neither is the malibu. The current G6 is in the right direction, just not executed well enough yet.

there is no creed in the bible that says good performance cars can't be FWD. all i am saying is pontiac should be diverse enough to cover this group too, one car even. i'll pay for awd if you offer it, but its not there. other Gm brands can only go part way to being sporty.

pontiac custom s has it entirely right. Pontiac will never be able to bring niche transaction prices that would allow the profit levels to sustain the brand at your neccessary low volumes. it simply aintgonnahappendotcom. this is the fundamental point of dissension. your niche is far too narrowly defined and way too exclusionary.

I'm not sure how many dealers have the pontiac label but i saw somewhere that there is over 3000 Buick dealers. At 100,000 buick cars and 3000 buick dealers that's what, 33.3 buicks sold per dealer per year. If there truly is 3000 pontiac dealers....hell, even if you say they weeded them out to 2000 dealers and sold 100,000 pontiacs, that's 50 cars per year. That is still not any sort of sustainable level for the brand, even if its bundled with Buick and Pontiac. Not for a dealer with acres of parking lot, a huge ass building, and tons invested in service equipment for a brand that used to sell many times more. GMC can only prop up the dealers in the case it is bundled with B/P. that whole transition will still take years to complete.

hey, someone show me the business plan on a spread sheet that proves how pontiac makes money selling cars at those low volumes. if you can show me this profit as you envision it on a spread sheet, i am gung ho all over it on top it UAW be damned send those chinese pontiacs and buicks it's awesome fer sure. I'll buy into your 100,000 car pontiac plan when someone shows me the hard evidence (numbers, not your generalization). Send me a spread sheet with Mark LaNeve's signature that says 'we can do this'. Send me a buick plan that even buickman says 'this will work'.

thanks everyone. it's been fun, your rwd only kool aid truck just pulled up to the door so its time to go..........

hey balthazar, great post. I'm in agreement.

Edited April 21, 2007 by regfootball

[balthazar]

There cannot be anything near 3000 Buick or Pontiac dealers-- sounds way too high. But as the bulk of Buick & Pontiac stores are in the same building, and since B-P-G has been a combined sales entity for X years, the sales numbers do not need to be X per brand, but 1/3rdX.

>>"mini is a model."<<

Agreed- always paired with BMW, no?

I also have to agree in general with Reg here- I think a NG G6 with FWD is worthwhile to develop, meanwhile the RWD Pontiac portfolio is fleshed out & established... then down the road perhaps it could be dumped. But as the first or immediate action- Pontiac's image will not be bolstered by the discontinuation of the FWD G6. Look at Cadillac- they've kept the Deville/DTS all along while completely revamping the rest of the lines, to their profit, sales and image benefit. At this point the DTS --like the G6: the volume leader-- could arguably be the sole detriment to a thoroughly competitive lineup- it's discontinuation or conversion to RWD is now on the front burner, developmentally.

Bring on the G8, another GTO-esque coupe, continue development of the Solstice... establish street cred then RWD the G6 or discontinue it. But frankly I think there's room for it as a better, NG version, even FWD.

[Camino LS6]

Obviously there will be overlap, the G5 and G6 will hang around for a while. But moving agressively toward an all RWD Pontiac is really the right thing to do. As the last of the FWD fade out, AWD could be phased in as an option.

But, it would be worse than pointless to keep a Pontiac brand that is all FWD save a model or two.

I'd rather see the brand fold.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'd rather see the brand fold.

Something tells me you will get to see your wish come true.

[ocnblu]

What a horrible thing to say. You'd better be wrong-o.

[Camino LS6]

Something tells me you will get to see your wish come true.

I think you know that isn't my wish.

[BigPontiac]

well, get Bob Lutz and Mark LaNeve to send me the viable business plan and spreadsheet with Pontiac existing at 100,000 units or some other niche volume. I'll let Bob and Mark tell me if its possible to make profit on 100,000 niche cars cause I don't see you guys running the numbers on that.

Did you intend this to be as ridiculous as it sounds? Lutz and LaNeve sharing confidential GM business plans for the privilege of your approval? You're beginning to sound a lot like Buickman...

considering B/P/O probably came close to 1.5 million units back in 95, its sick to think you all would accept Buick Pontiac as say 200,000 units today when you know chevy and saturn don't likely pedal much more volume now then they did then.

It'd be great to see the source of your volume numbers. For comparison, the information I have from The Standard Catalog of Pontiac 1926-1995 shows SALES:

1958: 235,872

1959: 386,879

1960: 409,932

1961: 380,134

1962: 541,627

1963: 617,536

1964: 693,716

1965: 827,571

1966: 834,843

1967: 836,937

1968: 893,745

1969: 782,513

1970: 540,191

1971: 710,352

1972: 756,521

1973: 807,418

1974: 497,372

1975: 503,857

1976: 753,093

1977: 808,467

1978: 896,980

They certainly weren't always selling that type of volume when they established their dealer network. Number of Pontiac dealers in 1958 was 3,716 vs. 3,242 in 1978. Stats only go up to 1978.

Edited April 21, 2007 by BigPontiac

[regfootball]

SOURCE: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN CARS published by the auto editors of CONSUMER GUIDE publications international, LTD.

copyright 1996

production numbers (vans not included)

1995 buick- 574455

skylark - 53860

century - 113699

regal - 100169

lesabre - 171783

park avenue - 62994

roadmaster - 30508 (note how the fwd park avenue and lesabre outsold the rwd roadmaster)

riviera - 41442

1995 olds - 454957

achieva - 57263 combined

ciera - 135346 combined

cutlass supreme - 113232 combined

88 - 75841

98 - 25444

aurora - 47831

1995 pontiac - 663980

sunfire - 66655

firebird - 60550

grand am - 287988

grand prix - 160711

bonneville - 88076 (92 bonneville sold 124511 units)

1995 total MY produced by the three GM 'tier two' brands

1,693,392

sorry i was wrong. i my guess was UNDER actual by like 200,000 units.

my whole feeling is that no matter how hard they try, Pontiac has never been perceived a niche brand, and therefore would fail in both volume and profit if they tried to be because the public's perception of them is too hard to change (quickly). it would be like taking corn flakes and moving all the boxes off the cereal aisle and over to the organic foods section, even if you changed the design of the box and made them taste better. look at how not the organic doritos sell. their transaction prices would not be what they would need and their margins would not be able to be held because production costs could be too great for the focused hardware and they could not fall back on volume. it has to still have some appeal to mainstream, somewhere between niche and mainstream, even if it is part of BPG for some dealers, and therefore does need to retain some mainstream traits to be viable from a business standpoint. there is no hard evidence that proves or suggests Pontiac or Buick alone or together can exist with too narrow of a focus and being to exclusionary in their product offerings. the people's perception and history of the brands are too strong to allow people to shift their thinking that much. Saturn possibly can because it is the youngest brand and people's perception about the brand is less about the car and more about the experience. Saturn is trying to define a perception of their cars and even so far, its success in doing that is lukewarm. So to think Pontiac can go that way, in less than ten years even, would be iffy at best. Pontiac to remain, in the mid range business plan, has to still offer enough that still may attract the mainstream in a sporty performance oriented way, to exist, and to enable them to provide the more tightly focused stuff they want to as a good percentage of their offerings. No matter which path they chose, they have to work the numbers for a profit or they die, their chances of profit are greater with more volume because it makes up for ebb and flow of business and popularity of models and market swings and trends towards styling or features. Plus, more volume can mean more market share to freeze out competitors and also reasonably priced models bring 'brand entry' and accessibility to the brand. You want to entice people to enter your brand and move up later. Grand Am was a great brand entry car, it was just lackluster to some. had the grand am made people happy like accords do (in the simple sense of the buyer not regretting their purchase) it may be a totally different pontiac today. Making BMW exclusive is wise because it allows them to keep their prices up, but BMW is not a large outfit in the US. Making Pontiac exclusive likely won't work, even if its bundled with BPG. B and G depend on P to pull their own weight too. The BPG group is too large and cannot be pared down to BMW type levels. GM's business operations and dealer network cannot be pared down pr consolidated that quickly. Olds was bundled with other GM brands and look what it did for them. Many BPO dealers have already been paired with GMC for a long time already.

Otherwise, Lutz/LaNeve better show me that spreadsheet. i'm not saying to limit performance. i am saying it needs to be performance packaged in a fairly accepted way.

If I were throwing numbers around, it would be nice if Buick + Pontiac could sell 500,000 cars a year between the two brands for the next few years. That might be the sweet spot between supply and demand, selling and dumping, between niche and not niche. If they had to adjust that number to also include for the Enclave, that's fine, because buyers buy SUV's in lieu of sedans these days. Many LeSabre or Park customers may buy Enclaves now.

Edited April 21, 2007 by regfootball

[turbo200]

hold the phone. the only one claiming a ~22k RWD sedan, coupe, and convertible can't sell is you!

I believe 200k could be easily achievable as long as the car has the right style quality and performance. The clincher is that today's technology can easily handle the harshest of winters. Stability, ABS, all season tires all standard, have you already experienced today's tech in a RWD car, reg? Then let those who have speak up.

[turbo200]

let me also add that I am not opposed to a FWD G6 sharing the limelight with a RWD mid-compact sedan under the G8. Lexus has cars that overlap that are FWD and RWD, why can't Pontiac? The tooling and platform is readily available, so an EP II G6 is okay. I am just opposed to it being the star player of the mainstream Pontiac car. Have a RWD G4 compact sedan about the size of 1-series, a 3-series sized sedan, a G6 about the size it currently is occupying the position the Gran Prix currently occupies, and the G8.