Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[ocnblu]

Well, believe me, I am certainly not going to laugh in anyone's face if all of my complaining turns out to be justified. I will cry like a baby, because if the G8 does not succeed, I have a real fear for Pontiac's future. There are so many good things about the car, so many improvements over the Monaro (6 cylinder availability, sedan bodystyle, DOT compliant structure without band-aids, lower starting price), I just cannot get over the styling, which I feel does not justify the brand.

[Camino LS6]

Gotta love the Fiero.

Anyways, I have to give credit to Balthy. I'm unsure why certain members are trying to imply they were rebadges. They obviously were not. I may have said that styling was similar enough that, if photoshopped, a non car enthusiast would be unable to notice, but never anything more. So if there was any confusion about that, I'm sorry.

Back to the G8, whether you like the styling or not, be glad Pontiac is getting a world class sedan that is able to put a BMW to shame. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it's not ugly by any means, not yet another FWD vehicle, not a rebadge of anything sold here, and not lacking in many ways. For a vehicle this great to wear a Pontiac badge... It's not a disgrace, not a shame, not anything like that. It's the exact opposite. What's in the past, is in the past. As is, the G8 will be a fine counterpart to the Solstice, which can't be said for any other current Pontiac. Myself, I'm a fan of many Pontiacs of all time periods. However I realize that it is a better vehicle, all around, than most of them, regardless of styling. Call it unoriginal, bland, a rebadge, a faux Pontiac.... and I'll call it the best damn unoriginal, bland, rebadge, faux Pontiac I've ever seen.

Quite possibly your best post ever,BV

[Oracle of Delphi]

I just cannot get over the styling, which I feel does not justify the brand.

And that is what is going to kill this car, that and the facts of limited supply and high gas prices. People will be put off by it's looks, just as many on this forum are. Dealers will mark this car up, just as they did the GTO. Gasoline is expected to be over 4 bucks a gallon by summer, God knows where the price will be in Jan 08, if it's a cold winter and heating oil is in short supply when this car debuts. And BV, How do you classify World Class? A number of 05 and 06 GTOs have had pistons missing from their engines, from brand new cars no less. Yet Holden shipped them anyway, did they push them onto the ships to get them here just to meet their quotas set by GM? I know of four cases of this in just the Mid Atlantic area alone.

I'm afraid ocnblu, your fears about Pontiac being killed off will become true, what's odd about that is, it will be Lutz the car guy, that killed it off.

I'm getting my popcorn out, because the G8 show is about to start. I'm going to sit back and watch it all play out, it should be great fun to watch at least for me, It's a win/win situation for me. If Lutz is right, Pontiac will live to see another day, if Lutz is wrong, he will be forced to retire or be dismissed altogether and Holden will be lucky if it's allowed to set direction for itself let alone all of GM. I can't wait for the fun to begin. Come on Jan 08!

Edited April 14, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[balthazar]

>>"be glad Pontiac is getting a world class sedan that is able to put a BMW to shame. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it's not ugly by any means, not yet another FWD vehicle, not a rebadge of anything sold here, and not lacking in many ways."<<

Egg-zack-tea-leave what was said by many about another recent Holden/Pontiac.... can't... recall... the... model name....

I want to say it again- I hope I am wrong on the G8 and it is Charger-hot or moreso, but as a lifetime Pontiac enthusiast, I was hoping for more still. Is that wrong?

[Northstar]

>>"be glad Pontiac is getting a world class sedan that is able to put a BMW to shame. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it's not ugly by any means, not yet another FWD vehicle, not a rebadge of anything sold here, and not lacking in many ways."<<

Egg-zack-tea-leave what was said by many about another recent Holden/Pontiac.... can't... recall... the... model name....

I want to say it again- I hope I am wrong on the G8 and it is Charger-hot or moreso, but as a lifetime Pontiac enthusiast, I was hoping for more still. Is that wrong?

The GTO did not sell bad for it's price and market. The market for a RWD V8 coupe is not very big.

As for the G8, I have no problem if someone would like it to look a bit more aggressive or different; what I have a problem with is people who say it's ugly and/or bland. It's not; it's stylish and has good lines throughout.

[hyperv6]

With all this what is a Pontiac and whats not can you imagine how pissed the Oakland fans are!

By my Standards if it has a Pontiac emblem it is a Pontiac. Yes I will even accept the Aztec just not the Vibe.

I do love the old Pontiacs engines but I do not miss the broken ring lands on the cast pistons and the leaking rear main seals.

Rule of thumb if it has cast pistons keep the timing down as you will break 1-2 pistons. This is how My buddy and myself learned how to rebuild engines. We got to the point we could pull a 428 tri power out of a 65 GTO in 30 min. Not bad for 16 year olds.

We did one run it with the two bad pistons and a 3:08 gear on street tires and still pulled a 14:01.

Also for the Fiero V6. It was a Chevy based 2.8 but had a Pontiac only intake, stainless exhaust manifolds and closed loop computer. But because of the 2.8 Chevy base I only included the 4 cylinder as the last Pontiac.

[97regalGS]

The G8 is coming on a boat from Australia. Not on a train from Brampton. Therefore it can't supply Charger-like numbers.

It is coming in such limited numbers, even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. The only thing that can save Pontiac is a commitment from GM to define the brand, agree on the right product mix and deliver the product.

Given that all their trucks/vans/crossovers are going to GMC, it is clear that Pontiac is going to have to live/die on their cars. A limited quantity Solstice and limited quantity G8, combined with limited quantity G6 convert and coupe are not going to make up for the loss of the GP and Bonneville, and the G6 sedan can be purchased at Chevy and Saturn.

So, unless NG G8 moves to Oshawa to replace RWD Impala AND alpha is approved and arrives in short order, I'd say Pontiac is on life support.

And given GM NA's crappy 1Q performance they are in poor financial shape. The zeta delay, is not soley about cafe. GM needs to re-evaluate where to spend their limited cash. Tough to invest in too many places until the dike is plugged and so far that is not happening, it is still leaking.

Moving Pontiac to a RWD only BMW-esque type brand is a brilliant idea - on paper. But with no global small RWD platform in place right now to offer the variants necessary and with GM in poor financial shape, and with NA sales continuing to slide it is pretty damn difficult to envision GM having the balls to press on. If the market conditions were different and CAFE, global warming, global dimming, $4 gas weren't all going on and the 900's were selling like hotcakes and the lambas were selling well, then there would be some decent profit to invest elsewhere. but, alas that is not the case

Buick survives because it has China. Pontiac is USA only.

[FloydHendershot]

I honestly think they were ready to shut Pontiac down until someone stepped in.

The Solstice and the helping hand from Holden will be the only thing keeping them from pulling the plug.

[Northstar]

The G8 is coming on a boat from Australia. Not on a train from Brampton. Therefore it can't supply Charger-like numbers.

It is coming in such limited numbers, even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. The only thing that can save Pontiac is a commitment from GM to define the brand, agree on the right product mix and deliver the product.

Given that all their trucks/vans/crossovers are going to GMC, it is clear that Pontiac is going to have to live/die on their cars. A limited quantity Solstice and limited quantity G8, combined with limited quantity G6 convert and coupe are not going to make up for the loss of the GP and Bonneville, and the G6 sedan can be purchased at Chevy and Saturn.

We don't know how many G8's they're bringing over. I think we've heard anywhere from 40-80k. If 80k, this would probably be more retail sales than GP + Bonneville. Remember, the GP is well over 50% to fleet, so it's quite possible that it does no more than 40-50k/year to retail customers. If the G8 sells 50k/year, I bet it's more profitable than the GP is currently.

[hyperv6]

i bet in 97, pontiac alone likely sold at least 400,000 front drive cars (GP, snfr, bonne, grand am). As worthy as I feel them to try a RWD based push, know that Pontiac needs at least one bread and butter segment front drive car with pontiac attributes to produce adequate volume to justify keeping the doors open....even if it is teamed with GMC and Buick. IOW, a FWD G6 replacement, call it what you like, in the end, it probably most critical to pontiac's success.

Pontiac is not in the same boat as they were in 1997. Today they are part Buick, Pontiac and GMC and do not need to sell car is a high volume in each brand as all three brands now equal on division.

Today they not competing with Chevy and need to focus on what Chevy does not sell.

They are more like Acura or a Lexus dealer now. Lower volume higher quality cars that are not the same as the entry level cars.

I am not going to say to have one FWD is wrong but it should not be the main focus car. It should be the entry level car for the dealer at best.

Teamed with GMC and Buick the idea is profit per car not profit per volume sold as it takes with a small FWD car. If BPG sells 400,000 cars a year and makes a profit on them it would be better than selling 400,000 small FWD cars with little or no profit. Leve the low profit high volume cars to Chevy as that is what they do best as a value leader.

BPG is for the owner who wants to seperate himself from the entry level crowd as say I can do better. The guy who was a quality car but can't spring for the 60K STS.

Lexus may be bases on the entry levels divisions cvars but they offer what the entry level does not offer.

Edited April 15, 2007 by hyperv6

[ocnblu]

For Pontiac, I say go all RWD or don't go at all. Keeping a FWD car in the lineup only dilutes the message. I'd like to see a four-seater coupe and sedan starting at $18/19k on Kappa II by 2010... but a full hardtop Solstice like the orange concept would be great to see, as well, starting at $18k.

[balthazar]

>>"...even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. "<<

I struggle to think of a historical instance, from any time or any country, where a seriously in-trouble marque was 'saved' by a single model. This is frequently thrown out with wild abandonment to unilaterally dismiss upcoming offerings, esp in GM's case. 'The Malibu won't save GM, the G8 won't save Pontiac, the Enclave won't save Buick'... who at the corporate level ever thought one model would ?? WHy does this cliche' criticism continue to thrive?

>>"Pontiac is not in the same boat as they were in 1997. Today they are part Buick, Pontiac and GMC and do not need to sell car is a high volume in each brand as all three brands now equal one division."<<

Of course: correct.

[Oracle of Delphi]

>>"...even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. "<<

I struggle to think of a historical instance, from any time or any country, where a seriously in-trouble marque was 'saved' by a single model. This is frequently thrown out with wild abandonment to unilaterally dismiss upcoming offerings, esp in GM's case. 'The Malibu won't save GM, the G8 won't save Pontiac, the Enclave won't save Buick'... who at the corporate level ever thought one model would ?? WHy does this cliche' criticism continue to thrive?

>>"Pontiac is not in the same boat as they were in 1997. Today they are part Buick, Pontiac and GMC and do not need to sell car is a high volume in each brand as all three brands now equal one division."<<

Of course: correct.

Don't worry Balth, they will kill off Pontiac with all RWD cars, then we can say we told you so!

[ocnblu]

I think you're right, Custom-S. Just look at how poorly BMW is doing, with all RWD. I think we should write in and demand the next 3-Series be FWD.

[z28luvr01]

[ocnblu]

You're one of them there funny boys, ain'tcha?

[BigPontiac]

Yeah, because bmw sells mostly a subcompact car that goes for 40 grand. they a sprinkling of dealers nation wide.

since pontiac probably has 10 times the dealers to prop up and clientele that won't pay 40k for a subcompact, i'd say your awd plan is flawed.

I call BS. The BMW 3 Series is classified as a compact by the EPA. I paid $36,500 for mine new in 2005. The 3.0 liter inline 6 has 235hp coupled to a 6 speed manual transmission which works just fine in a car that weighs 3285lbs. Real world fuel economy is 23 city, 28 highway (at 75mph)...delivered in a fun to drive RWD configuration with 50.1/49.9 weight distribution. Published 0-60 acceleration is 5.9 seconds. Please learn what you're talking about before you start slamming BMW and RWD.

An all RWD Pontiac lineup would compete with Certified Preowned BMWs quite well if they were RWD, had distinctive styling and engineered as a driver's car. Leaving Pontiac as the RWD performance brand leaves the "sporty" mass market to Chevy and Saturn to be covered with predominately FWD. Make a profit first, then add volume.

Edited April 16, 2007 by BigPontiac

[97regalGS]

We don't know how many G8's they're bringing over. I think we've heard anywhere from 40-80k. If 80k, this would probably be more retail sales than GP + Bonneville. Remember, the GP is well over 50% to fleet, so it's quite possible that it does no more than 40-50k/year to retail customers. If the G8 sells 50k/year, I bet it's more profitable than the GP is currently.

80k? that sounds a lot higher than that i would expect. also sounds higher than will be needed for the demand.

G8 doesn't have the 'in your face' styling of the 300 or name of the Charger to woo buyers.

[Northstar]

50k/year is 4k/month. That's what the CTS does that costs much more. I think it would be easily done.

[97regalGS]

They are more like Acura or a Lexus dealer now. Lower volume higher quality cars that are not the same as the entry level cars.

I get the analogy, but, um no. I don't for two seconds think the market would consider Pontiac a higher quality manufacturer. and in the same sentence as Acura and Lexus, not a chance.

there isn't one car in their line-up that even comes close. we'll wait for the G8 to arrive to see if things have any hope of improving.

(by the way, I get your point about what they could be given the dealer alignment)

[97regalGS]

>>"...even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. "<<

I struggle to think of a historical instance, from any time or any country, where a seriously in-trouble marque was 'saved' by a single model. This is frequently thrown out with wild abandonment to unilaterally dismiss upcoming offerings, esp in GM's case. 'The Malibu won't save GM, the G8 won't save Pontiac, the Enclave won't save Buick'... who at the corporate level ever thought one model would ?? WHy does this cliche' criticism continue to thrive?

>>"Pontiac is not in the same boat as they were in 1997. Today they are part Buick, Pontiac and GMC and do not need to sell car is a high volume in each brand as all three brands now equal one division."<<

Of course: correct.

as usual, you head of on some tangent and rant about something.

regardless, as far as I know, there are NO other products coming down the pipe for Pontiac. hence, the G8 would have to do it by itself. ie alone.

[FloydHendershot]

80k? that sounds a lot higher than that i would expect. also sounds higher than will be needed for the demand.

G8 doesn't have the 'in your face' styling of the 300 or name of the Charger to woo buyers.

Neither do Lexus or Honda for the most part. Some rather an unassuming car, that is if they can get past the fact it's a Pontiac.

The GTO did well in California(unverified) so it may potentially become a hit.

Remember all the chances they gave Olds? This is all too familiar and they sure won't throw many more floats for Pontiac.

[balthazar]

That's just it- it's not expected nor intended to do anything but sell well, improve showroom traffic & marque image. There's no "saving" involved.

Just pointing ("ranting") that out.

[Cory Wolfe]

And that is what is going to kill this car, that and the facts of limited supply and high gas prices. People will be put off by it's looks, just as many on this forum are. Dealers will mark this car up, just as they did the GTO. Gasoline is expected to be over 4 bucks a gallon by summer, God knows where the price will be in Jan 08, if it's a cold winter and heating oil is in short supply when this car debuts. And BV, How do you classify World Class? A number of 05 and 06 GTOs have had pistons missing from their engines, from brand new cars no less. Yet Holden shipped them anyway, did they push them onto the ships to get them here just to meet their quotas set by GM? I know of four cases of this in just the Mid Atlantic area alone.

I'm afraid ocnblu, your fears about Pontiac being killed off will become true, what's odd about that is, it will be Lutz the car guy, that killed it off.

I'm getting my popcorn out, because the G8 show is about to start. I'm going to sit back and watch it all play out, it should be great fun to watch at least for me, It's a win/win situation for me. If Lutz is right, Pontiac will live to see another day, if Lutz is wrong, he will be forced to retire or be dismissed altogether and Holden will be lucky if it's allowed to set direction for itself let alone all of GM. I can't wait for the fun to begin. Come on Jan 08!

Wow... You are such a freaking pessimist.

First off, there are more people on this forum who approve of the design than those who oppose it. So you are in quite the minority with your statements. Second, while the dealers may mark it up, it will not be at the levels that they did for the GTO. It's doesn't have a prestigious name and to alot of dealers who know &#036;h&#33; about the cars they sell, it'll just be another Pontiac sedan. Three, do you always believe what is expected? Are you a Consumer Reports reader? Seriously, I highly doubt gas will over $4, and even if it is, it won't stop real enthusiasts from one, especially with a relatively fuel efficient V6 that will most likely be the majority of G8s imported. Fourth, it is world class, don't fool yourself. It's been compared to much more expensive MBs and BMWs in Austrailia and even eliminating cost, it's won comparisons. Compared to FWD w-body poser of yours, it's universally better. As far as missing pistons... That's means nothing compared to the reliability of many Pontiacs since the 70's. I'd call those more of freak assembly accidents, than anything. I would also think the media, in this day and age, would pick up something like that and exploit it to the point of no return. Hasn't happened.

Getting to yourself, get over your personal vendetta with Holden and appearantly Lutz, too. It's diluting your thoughts. Lutz = Best thing to happen to GM in ages. Holden = One of the only companies within GM building World Class cars at a time where very few GM brands in the US are. Finally, it's as if you're looking forward to the G8 failing. What the hell kind of Pontiac fan are you?

As for the G8, I have no problem if someone would like it to look a bit more aggressive or different; what I have a problem with is people who say it's ugly and/or bland. It's not; it's stylish and has good lines throughout.

Agreed. Edited April 16, 2007 by blackviper8891

[ocnblu]

Reg, no one is saying Pontiac should match BMW in price... where in the world do you get that idea? Some of us are just looking for something genuinely exciting to drive. For enthusiasts, RWD has a feel that is unmatched by even the best FWD chassis. This is a chance for Pontiac to really mean something, to stand apart. If the styling and hardware are there, coupled with affordable prices, there is no reason to believe Pontiac couldn't renew itself in a big way.

[Camino LS6]

BV and Blu: Absolutely!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Wow... You are such a freaking pessimist.

First off, there are more people on this forum who approve of the design than those who oppose it. So you are in quite the minority with your statements. Second, while the dealers may mark it up, it will not be at the levels that they did for the GTO. It's doesn't have a prestigious name and to alot of dealers who know &#036;h&#33; about the cars they sell, it'll just be another Pontiac sedan. Three, do you always believe what is expected? Are you a Consumer Reports reader? Seriously, I highly doubt gas will over $4, and even if it is, it won't stop real enthusiasts from one, especially with a relatively fuel efficient V6 that will most likely be the majority of G8s imported. Fourth, it is world class, don't fool yourself. It's been compared to much more expensive MBs and BMWs in Austrailia and even eliminating cost, it's won comparisons. Compared to FWD w-body poser of yours, it's universally better. As far as missing pistons... That's means nothing compared to the reliability of many Pontiacs since the 70's. I'd call those more of freak assembly accidents, than anything. I would also think the media, in this day and age, would pick up something like that and exploit it to the point of no return. Hasn't happened.

Getting to yourself, get over your personal vendetta with Holden and appearantly Lutz, too. It's diluting your thoughts. Lutz = Best thing to happen to GM in ages. Holden = One of the only companies within GM building World Class cars at a time where very few GM brands in the US are. Finally, it's as if you're looking forward to the G8 failing. What the hell kind of Pontiac fan are you?

Agreed.

First off BV, you are such freaking woman.

Do you think GM cares squat what an Auto Enthusiast thinks? With them being what 1% or 2% of total units sold? This forum is not indicative of the general public so you can't use this forum as a measure of how a car will do. All GM cares about is selling units. You highly doubt gas will be 4 bucks a gallon? You base this on what? Your education in????? Please don't make me laugh! As far as this car being compared to a BMW, you're right it is, but the BMW it was being compared to, was a last generation BMW, if I wanted that, I would go to a used car dealer and get the real thing. As far as reliability goes, you should have asked me about that Grand Am POS lawn ornament of yours before you bought it, dude, your model year was still using the old Fisher body plant to build the bodies and then ship those bodies 5 miles up the road to have the rest of the car assembled in another plant. Talk about quality issues. Everyone I know in GM would not buy a car from that old Lansing plant.

I have no personal vendetta with Holden, only personal experience, there's a difference just so you know. Their IP's (dashboard for you) suck big time in both materials and quality, just ask the Chinese they will tell you that, oh wait they already did and now Holden wants the Chinese IP too for their cars.

Now getting to you, get back in school! That's the best advice I can give you!

Edited April 16, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Cory Wolfe]

First off BV, you are such freaking woman.

Do you think GM cares squat what an Auto Enthusiast thinks? Whth them being what 1% or 2% of total units sold? This forum is not indicative of the general public so you can't use this forum as a measure of how a car will do. All GM cares about is selling units. You highly doubt gas will be 4 bucks a gallon? You base this on what? Your education in????? Please don't make me laugh! As far as this car being compared to a BMW, you're right it is, but the BMW it was being compared to, was a last generation BMW, if I wanted that, I would go to a used car dealer and get the real thing. As far as reliability goes, you should have asked me about that Grand Am POS lawn ornament of yours before you bought it, dude, your model year was still using the old Fisher body plant to build the bodies and then ship those bodies 5 miles up the road to have the rest of the car assembled in another plant. Talk about quality issues. Everyone I know in GM would not buy a car from that old Lansing plant.

I have no personal vendetta with Holden, only personal experience, there's a difference just so you know. Their IP's (dashboard for you) suck big time in both materials and quality, just ask the Chinese they will tell you that, oh wait they already did and now Holden wants the Chinese IP too for their cars.

Now getting to you, get back in school! That's the best advice I can give you!

Woman?

On the topic of this forum, hey, you brought it up, not me. I simply responded to your earlier comment "People will be put off by it's looks, just as many on this forum are." Now you say "This forum is not indicative of the general public so you can't use this forum as a measure of how a car will do." You're contradicting yourself. It's a classic case of using something in your favor, but when disputed, you deny it altogether. Meanwhile, this next comment of yours is just funny. A last generation BMW, eh? So a current generation 5 series is actually a last generation BMW? Odd. Tell Wheels magazine about that from down under. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of the current 5 series, that lost to a Commodore Calais, actually being a last generation BMW, secretly. I'm sure many other publications will, as well.

I didn't buy the Grand Am for reliability... I bought it so I could have a car, namely a Pomtiac, and it was only $1000. I wanted to get a Fiero, but that was as likely to happen as me suddenly turning straight at the time. The only real problem I had with the Grand Am was it's Quad4. Everything else was relatively good for being a $1000 car with 118k miles except the engine. Quad4s are utter junk.

I'm sorry, but where do you think personal vendettas evolve from? Person experience. It's okay to be in denial. Eventually, though, you're going to have to come to terms with yourself. However, the sooner you get over it, the sooner you'll stop making a fool out of yourself. That's my advice to you.

Finally, as far as my schooling... How is that relevant? At all?

Edited April 16, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Oracle of Delphi]

Woman?

On the topic of this forum, hey, you brought it up, not me. I simply responded to your earlier comment "People will be put off by it's looks, just as many on this forum are." Now you say "This forum is not indicative of the general public so you can't use this forum as a measure of how a car will do." You're contradicting yourself. It's a classic case of using something in your favor, but when disputed, you deny it altogether. Meanwhile, this next comment of yours is just funny. A last generation BMW, eh? So a current generation 5 series is actually a last generation BMW? Odd. Tell Wheels magazine about that from down under. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of the current 5 series, that lost to a Commodore Calais, actually being a last generation BMW, secretly. I'm sure many other publications will, as well.

I didn't buy the Grand Am for reliability... I bought it so I could have a car, namely a Pomtiac, and it was only $1000. I wanted to get a Fiero, but that was as likely to happen as me suddenly turning straight at the time. The only real problem I had with the Grand Am was it's Quad4. Everything else was relatively good for being a $1000 car with 118k miles except the engine. Quad4s are utter junk.

I'm sorry, but where do you think personal vendettas evolve from? Person experience. It's okay to be in denial. Eventually, though, you're going to have to come to terms with yourself. However, the sooner you get over it, the sooner you'll stop making a fool out of yourself. That's my advice to you.

Finally, as far as my schooling... How is that relevant? At all?

Meh, You're just a little girl, Not going to argue with a teenager!

[enzl]

Reg, no one is saying Pontiac should match BMW in price... where in the world do you get that idea? Some of us are just looking for something genuinely exciting to drive. For enthusiasts, RWD has a feel that is unmatched by even the best FWD chassis. This is a chance for Pontiac to really mean something, to stand apart. If the styling and hardware are there, coupled with affordable prices, there is no reason to believe Pontiac couldn't renew itself in a big way.

Agreed.

Salad days are over for this brand...they need a new, unique direction in the GM hierarchy or they are doomed.

Something for everyone (i.e. 400k+ sales) wasn't working. They are the next likely victim of a brand purge, as they have little to zero international potential and no truly unique product at this point in time.

[Cory Wolfe]

Meh, You're just a little girl, Not going to argue with a teenager!

You're an odd one, for sure.

[hyperv6]

Reg, no one is saying Pontiac should match BMW in price... where in the world do you get that idea? Some of us are just looking for something genuinely exciting to drive. For enthusiasts, RWD has a feel that is unmatched by even the best FWD chassis. This is a chance for Pontiac to really mean something, to stand apart. If the styling and hardware are there, coupled with affordable prices, there is no reason to believe Pontiac couldn't renew itself in a big way.

Never a more true statment!

It is time to leave the past in the past and join the new century with new competitive products and not some warmed over Chevy base product.

Since Holden has a world quality product and is not like anything GM offers in the states, they would be good place to start a new look for Pontiac.

Like the styling or not it's as good as many and better than many out there now. If you don't think it is exciting enough there are many other cars less exciting and selling very well. The general public as a whole do not want or care for the much extroverted Pontiacs of the 70's and 80's.

GM has realized time has moved on and wants Pontiac to move on too.

If there are those who don't think Pontiac can be taken seriously as a competitor of cars in the low end Luxury Performance group you had better not under estimate them. The same people starting this change are the same people over seeing Caddy and Saturns make over into cars the press and public are now taking seriously.

I think the change at GM came when they woke up and found they were no longer fighting with Ford and Chrysler. When Caddy was aimed and given cars to compete with BMW and Benz they are now being taken seriously. Saturn is now getting great Opel products and are now seen as real competior to Toyota. Given some quality product that we have not even seen yet and make it competitive with someone morte than Ford or Chrysler Pontiac can grow and be taken as a real world competitor.

As we have seen with Caddy and Saturn this is not going to happen over night. It will happen model by model with each being a step foward to respectibility.

Respect has to be earned with good product and time. Toyota and Benz did not just find their way to where they are one morning.

One thing for sure while the G6 and GP are not bad cars they are not the cars to earn this respect, Pontiac needs better. I being an owner of a new GP can say it is a good car but not a great car. Pontiac needs great cars.

I also agree the FWD cars are the best they have been but still do not have that firm solid feeling of a REW. It is just had to give good feeling with wheels that steer and turn. Your asking it to do more then they can provide.

If FWD was that good then we would have seen it on the Vette by now?

Don't under estimate the G8 as it is only the first step. Next will be a GXP G8 and more cars we will be very please with. If the G8 is a car that will sell well in Austrailia, Europe and China it should do well here. We need to quit thinking just as GM NA but we should think GM Global as that is where we finally heading.

It will be cool again in the near future to own a Pontiac.

[Camino LS6]

I think its cool right now, I love my GTO!

[BigPontiac]

well, I'll double check it but i swore the last gen 3 series was still a subcompact. maybe they crossed the line now to be in the same company as a corolla now.

Well, start double checking because you're wrong. The 3 Series has been classified as a compact by the EPA since 1999. Look it up.

people will not pay 37k (40k) adjusted for a pontiac labelled compact. and also keep in mind 30% or more of BMW's sales now are AWD anyways. Folks will not pay 40k for pontiacs, much less compact ones. You really must want Pontiac to shut down because no one will spend 40k on any Pontiac if there is a like BMW for the same price. So, Pontiac has to sell larger cars with better value...ones that incorporate all the requisite sportiness. Since Pontiac will go under trying to sell 40k compacts, this only underscores why they need that one 'volume car' to be their bread and butter, LIKE THE 3 SERIES is to BMW. No way pontiac can upscale the brand to go from a 20k signature car to a 40k signature car. i suppose they could if they badge it as a Phaeton.

I don't recall saying Pontiacs would be priced the same as BMWs. Pontiac needs to sell differentiated cars, not necessarily larger cars. And $40,000 - $36,500 = $3,500 (roughly half the amount Pontiac likely had to spend on per vehicle incentives to dispose of Azteks...)

How many 3 series drivers buy the high hp 6 speed manual RWD only 3 series? there are probably more of the low output chick BMW's that are sold with automatics, or ones that have AWD to pork up the curb weight to 3600+ pounds for a compact 40k BMW. At least you get a lot of poundage for the dollar (in addition to an economy car dashboard design....why they abondoned the previous gen awesome design and went cheap with it is a wonder in a 40k car).

Abondoned? Ever consider a spell checker? So, you who WHINE about Pontiac NEEDING to offer AWD on all RWD models because "people" demand it are now saying the BMW with AWD is "porky"?? Waffle much? You BOUGHT an Aztek...the posterchild for WHY Pontiac is viewed as a damaged brand! You're not exactly in a position to criticize any other car on the road.

2007 3 series Curb weight: 3400–3800 lb, not really what most consider nimble anymore.

Nice job trying to malign the 3 Series by quoting the curb weight of the AWD wagon with the automatic trans at 3814lbs. Of course the 328i 2WD sedan with 6speed manual also weighs 3340lbs. But I'm sure if you had used the real numbers without trying to "spin" them you wouldn't have listed them.

another thing, BMW was sucking until they built the X5 and X3 to please the SUV crowds. Those two models define BMW as much as their sedans do these days...like it or not.....big ass mommy wagons are what feeds the profits at BMW these days

if we get a compact pontiac going for 40k I guess that G8 should come in at 5 series prices......60K not even buickman can sell those out the door prices on a buick.....

don't get me wrong, i like the new 335i a buttload, but it does not represent the level of value pontiac customers expect. and pontiac needs to sell in some volume to be stay alive as an entity. pontiac may be able to reach 85-90% of the ultimate BMW performance, but it has to be in the form of an accessible product offering to many Americans. Very few folks have the means to get a BMW. Pontiac has never represented being that inaccessible to America.

look at how all the euro marques are bringing in their C30's, 1 series, A3's etc. because they even know they can't make it selling their own pricy entry level models. they have to try to bring in cheaper models to keep their doors open too.

In the combined P-B-GMC dealership channel, GMC can sell the trucks and SUV. This leaves Pontiac to concentrate on cars. I see new Pontiacs competing against CPO BMWs from a price point perspective. My previous BMW, a CPO 2000 323i sedan with 5 speed manual cost me $20,000 at BMW of Manhattan. It was 3 years old (purchased in 2003), with 35K miles on it, had a year left of the factory warranty and the 100K extended as part of the CPO program. And a "chick BMW" is still more engaging to drive than a "grampa" Ford 500.

[hyperv6]

you're kind of dissing FWD yet the car in your driveway which you bought to keep the dealer in business was a FWD volume produced model.

again, another example, we all dream of hyperf. RWD cars, yada yada, and look what it is people actually write checks for and put in their garage.

I am a GM/Pontiac buyer and fan. I needed a $30K 4 door sedan. What other choice did I have.

Add in the fact I drive a 2 wheel drive GMC pick up with a ZQ8 handling package daily and this was the wifes car. If I had been buying the car for myself it would have had a 2 door GTO.

I only bought the best 4 door Pontiac had available [RWD was not an option in 04 in a Pontiac sedan]and besides the car stickered at near 33K and I bought it for 23K new.

Must not be much profit in the FWD supercharged Comp GP if they mark em down that much. Yes it has every option including the 3 SPO options and five spoke GTP wheels.

This is another case of offer what the people want and they come knocking and willing to spend more. If the G8 was out I would have been glad to spend more to get it but when I was buying all that was avail was CTS [wife hated it I like it, the Chrysler and Dodge [i would never buy from Chrysler], A crown Vic [Ya like I want an old car] and I do not buy 4N.

Anyway my truck is up for replacment soon and I will replace it with either a new RWD truck or Car I have never owned a FWD car for myself. I have been looking at a 06 GTO or waiting for the 09 Camaro.

People only put into their garage what they can afford or is available and there really are not many options with a RWD..... yet.

GM lost money on my sales becase it was thew same old story we will discount the Yadda Yadda FWD cars because they are not selling like they should. They lost my extra money I was willing to spend on the car they did not offer what I want.

I know the truth about RWD vs FWD, In the 80's they needed smaller lighter car fast and what other way to do it cheap. Then add a marketing blitz on winter driving and presto a new generation that has no clue to RWD.

FWD is like Windows on my computer. It is user friendly but not really the best system. FWD is just point and shoot for the unskilled cell phone talking driver, not better traction or feel.

Out of 3 cars in my Garage 2 are Pontiacs and one a GMC truck. Only one is FWD and not by choice I had no option at Pontiac.

If you think Pontiac is floating you had better look at sales and profit per unit sold. it's not good.

Right Wheel Drive RWD is the way to go.

Edited April 18, 2007 by hyperv6

[zetaman]

I am a GM/Pontiac buyer and fan. I needed a $30K 4 door sedan. What other choice did I have.

Add in the fact I drive a 2 wheel drive GMC pick up with a ZQ8 handling package daily and this wias the wifes car. If I had been buying the car for myself it would have had a 2 door GTO.

I only bought the best 4 door Pontiac had available [RWD was not an option in 04 in a Pontiac sedan]and besides the car stickered at near 33K and I bought it for 23K new.

Must not be much profit in the FWD supercharged Comp GP if they mark em down that much. Yes it has every option including the 3 SPO options and five spoke GTP wheels.

This is another case of offer what the people want and they come knocking and willing to spend more. If the G8 was out I would have been glad to spend more to get it but when I was buying all that was avail was CTS [wife hated it I like it, the Chrysler and Dodge [i would never buy from Chrysler], A crown Vic [Ya like I want an old car], I do not buy 4N.

Anyway my truck is up for replacment soon and I will replace it with either a new RWD truck or Car I have never owned a FWD car for myself. I have been looking at a 06 GTO or waiting for the 09 Camaro.

People only put into their garage what they can afford or is available and there really are not many options with a RWD..... yet.

GM lost money on my sales becase it was thew same old story we will discount the Yadda Yadda FWD cars because they are not selling like they should. They lost my extra money I was willing to spend on the car they did not offer what I want.

I know the truth about RWD vs FWD, In the 80's they needed smaller lighter car fast and what other way to do it cheap. Then add a marketing blitz on winter driving and presto a new generation that has no clue to RWD.

FWD is like Windows on my computer. It is user friendly but not really the best system. FWD is just point and shoot for the unskilled cell phone talking driver, not better traction or feel.

Out of 3 cars in my Garage 2 are Pontiacs and one a truck. Only one is FWD and not by choice I had not option at Pontiac.

If you think Pontiac is floating you had better look at sales and profit per unit sold. it's not good.

Right Wheel Drive RWD is the way to go.

^^ Great post!

[Northstar]

kiss your snow state sales good bye

AWD and GM's 1000 other brands will take care of snow state sales.

[Camino LS6]

Hmm, I live in a snow state and always buy RWD cars and 4wd trucks.

What the hell do I need with FWD?

[Drew Dowdell]

I live in a snow state and lived with RWD only for 3 years prior to purchasing the Avalanche..... and the snow wasn't my reason for purchasing it.

Spend the extra $450 for good snow tires.

[Drew Dowdell]

THE DEALER WON'T APPRECIATE YOU CUTTING INTO HIS ABILITY TO SELL A CAR

A Pontiac dealer is also a Buick dealer and a GMC dealer.

[nferr]

I live in a snow state and lived with RWD only for 3 years prior to purchasing the Avalanche..... and the snow wasn't my reason for purchasing it.

Spend the extra $450 for good snow tires.

The vast majority of buyers will not buy RWD in the snow belt. Of course there are exceptions but if you're a volume, mass market seller, RWD is a problem up here. Here in Connecticut almost everyone who has decent income has an SUV in the garage and AWD sedans are getting very popular. I don't profess to know the exact percentages but looking out at the parking lot at work and around where I live it's 90% FWD or AWD.

[Robert Hall]

We get plenty of snow here, but I wouldn't drive FWD. 4WD SUV (which is in 2WD RWD most of the time) for the daily driver, RWD cars for fun works for me..

Edited April 17, 2007 by moltar

[Cory Wolfe]

Reg: Mentally Unstable.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Reg: Mentally Unstable.

Odd you say that BV!

[97regalGS]

The vast majority of buyers will not buy RWD in the snow belt. Of course there are exceptions but if you're a volume, mass market seller, RWD is a problem up here. Here in Connecticut almost everyone who has decent income has an SUV in the garage and AWD sedans are getting very popular. I don't profess to know the exact percentages but looking out at the parking lot at work and around where I live it's 90% FWD or AWD.

that is absolutely true.

in fact, there was an article this morning talking about the fact that BMW and Mercedes were closing their dealerships and moving out of Canada and the northern states cause it was going to cost too much money to convert all their cars to FWD for that market.

and don't try to convince us that 90% of BMW and Mercedes cars sold in the 'northern climes' are AWD, cause that is a croc.

[Northstar]

If Pontiacs don't sell in the northern states, so be it. Pontiacs aren't selling well anywhere currently, so I don't see how it's any worse to "abandon" snow states. Give the dealers Saturn, it seems to becoming what Pontiac was (a FWD line).

[hyperv6]

that is absolutely true.

in fact, there was an article this morning talking about the fact that BMW and Mercedes were closing their dealerships and moving out of Canada and the northern states cause it was going to cost too much money to convert all their cars to FWD for that market.

and don't try to convince us that 90% of BMW and Mercedes cars sold in the 'northern climes' are AWD, cause that is a croc.

Well I am born and raised in the Snow belt of Lake Erie We get more snow here than most parts of the country.

I have driven RWD for years with All season tires with nary a problem for near 30 years. The only car I ever had much problem with was a Big Block 1972 GMC Sprint SP with an open rear. All I had to do is add some weight in the rear and it was fine.

As for AWD cars here other than Subaru they are not a common sight here. for RWD cars and trucks they are everywhere.

Mecedes and BMW must not be affraid to stay in the Cleveland Akron and Canton area as they have a very strong network and even have sold a few SLR Mclarens along the way. [DId not see that one in the snow]. Heck the Benz dealer in Akron is all new as is the BMW dealer and both well laid out new style dealers not old buildings. Most of all there cars here are RWD as AWD is rare for them.

The only cars I see stuck in the snow or median are 4X4 people who flat lost it under braking as they stop no better than RWD or FWD and don't have enough sense to understand that.

I get the feeling the problem lies with the dumbing down of the American driver. Let's face it people drove for 80's years in poor weather in RWD vehicles and did so on some of the poorest bias tires and with no elctronic controls. Just about everyone got where they were going and never complained. Todays driver are as unskill since the automobile was created. Even wagon drivers attained better control skills than many of todays drivers.

Today you have cars and tires that do most of the work and driving skill has declined because of it. I fear stability control will rob future generations of the skill of correcting a slide. This is a skill that could save theirs or some one else life. I have Stability control on my one car. It is a benifit on FWD to get it to turn under acceleration. But it is not fool proof and one can over power Stablility control then the car will spin anyway. If it does would todays driver be able to save it? I do not believe so!

I have no problem with GM selling FWD cars as they do have their place for the unskilled and non performance driver. But when you sell Pontiac you need to sell it to be different than Chevy. You need to sell Pontiac to it's strength as a performance car. Pontiac needs to be different to make it in the future and no longer has to make cars to cover the entire scope of buyers.

I think Chevy and Saturn will cover the FWD market well for GM, do we really need three divisions selling the same car? Isn't that part of the problem that got us to this point in the first place?

As for RWD in the snow, If you can drive one in the snow learn car control as it is not that hard. In truth it can be quite fun and make you a much better driver even in a FWD.

How long till the day of the self guided car on the electronic highway comes? We already have a car that tries to park it's self if you have all day. If you can't park it then get out of it you should not be driving.

Do not under estimate the snow states we have delt with this for years and we are not affraid of a little white stuff.

Edited April 17, 2007 by hyperv6

[BigPontiac]

OK, so you agree then that 3800 pounds for a compact/almost a subcompact car is porky. Even 3340 for the chick version is still porky, considering the accord, altima, mazda6 all weigh less. yeah, the BMW handles good, but you can never proclaim it to be a light car, especially considering its not even a v8 under the hood.

The 3 Series is a compact...not "almost a subcompact." EPA classifications are pretty black and white, even if you don't like the answer. 3340lbs is on par with the other cars that compete with the 3 Series: Saab 9-3, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4, Lexus IS250 and Mercedes Benz C-Class (edmunds.com). All 2WD sedans. The true irony here is that the 3 Series is one of the few RWD sedans which offers optional AWD...a configuration which you deem mandatory for all future GM RWD models...and now you're complaining that it's too heavy!

It's so obvious with your post you are still missing the point on why many people other than yourself buy cars.

Actually, I find it difficult to follow any point you are trying to make as you drift between your needs and your perception of the needs of every other driver in North America when you voice your opinions. People buy cars for a variety of reasons -- basic transportation, as an investment, to race on weekends, to haul their families or to have fun while traveling from point A to point B. The list is much longer I'm sure and depends on factors such as life stage, income level, geographic location and lifestyle activities.

First off, you compare a 500 with the xxxx, ok, cough, BASE BMW. ok, you're lame for making that comparison because you are insinuating that someone buying a family car with size is making that comparison. no buyer makes that comparison, so its stupid to even try to mention them in the same sentence.

I was making a comparison of the BMW to the Ford to get your attention. You saw fit to gloss over trying to see why I bought a BMW, so I saw fit to extend you the same courtesy. You appear to feel your needs and purchasing decisions should apply to me as well. They do not.

turns out this is exactly what most folks end up doing, you buy cars for other attributes that are just as important, or more so. I needed the room and space my 500 gives me. The price i got it for new was better than a useless civic, even with leather and heated seats and sunroof and all. Its got 5 star safety which is important with a kid. command elevated seating...no more sitting in a bathtub. the trunk is huge. tons of room to get kid in and out of car seat. i don't think BMW puts trunks on their cars. It's a good thing you got that CPO on your bimmer because buying a used bimmer can bankrupt you with fixes generally is what I have heard. So while i agree the BMW is dynamically a good car (except the time i test drove the 3 series and CTS back to back, I preferred the CTS thank you....more exciting) not everyone is always looking for a tiny heavy car with vinyl seats standard and no trunk....and only be hopeful to be able to afford it used.

Same thing with the Aztek....folks rip it, but judge the entire experience based on the looks of the car and don't ever sit and think that there are other reasons people buy cars and those reasons are what keep dealers and carmakers in business. So while folks can take all the pot shots they want at my ugly aztek, i just laugh because I paid about 12 grand less than a Pilot.....for basically less than a new G5 I have room for 5, flexible seating, can haul retaining wall blocks and plywood, tons of room for the car seat and kid, get good mpg and the vehicle has cost me virtually nothing in repairs or wear items in close to 65,000 miles. You put gas in it and go. it gets good mpg. Two other coworkers who own one agree. We all got more, for less, and are happy as punch. Sounds like a way to build a car brand to me.

And my aztek payment probably cost less each month than the insurance bill on your bimmer. you must be single or DINK's. if you ever have to transport more than yourself, your bluetooth phone, and your mocha you quickly find out how limiting the 3 series is as a practical transportation device you can justify making payments on for more than one person. Again, underscoring that most folks buy cars mainly for reasons more than drive wheels, 'sublime handling', and image. Price / value, safety, room and comfort, features, winter traction, function....all generally still rule the roost these days. Cars like 3 series are still niche markets and Pontiac cannot survive entirely on niches.

Please, enough with the sweeping generalities of "most folks" and "people." Without a verifiable factual reference, its all your opinion. My CPO BMW had no issues, you heard wrong. Hence, I bought another one and I don't make monthly payments.

So what you've stated above is that you want a vehicle that provides basic transportation with lots of room to haul your family, styling is minimally important and that price is your top priority. None of your requirements have made reference to styling or the overall driving experience of the car. As Pontiac is trying to return to their performance roots, they are likely not the brand in the GM family that will fulfill your needs. Your needs would be better served by Chevrolet. You also appear to fit the profile of a Toyota buyer as well. The transportation appliance is not consistent with GM's performance role for Pontiac.

this all just reinforces that even though Pontiac could go all RWD and all that stuff, they would simply be too exclusionary. I can get giving all the trucks and xovers to GMC....Pontiac needs at least one model that can sell in the 100k range and a RWD compact is not that model.

as far as spell check, i don't really care. if it bothers you, don't read the post. simple as that. I'm not gonna spend my nights doing spell check.

it's funny how RWD champions seem to forget that its SUV's and their successor, crossovers, that basically put RWD sedans under and killed performance sedans in the market, on the sales charts and basically keep all the luxury marques afloat in terms of dollars. Cayenne? XC90? Q7? I doubt BMW would ever give up the cash flow of the X3 and X5........

RWD drive vehicles are intended for buyers who value performance...that does not appear to be you based on your above stated buying preferences. GM offers a variety of other brands with vehicles intended for a mass market, family oriented audience.

Discussing the volume of units sold without taking into account the profit/loss per unit is a meaningless discussion. Retail vs. Fleet sales will also have a huge impact on the discussion.

Edited April 17, 2007 by BigPontiac

[BigPontiac]

The vast majority of buyers will not buy RWD in the snow belt. Of course there are exceptions but if you're a volume, mass market seller, RWD is a problem up here. Here in Connecticut almost everyone who has decent income has an SUV in the garage and AWD sedans are getting very popular. I don't profess to know the exact percentages but looking out at the parking lot at work and around where I live it's 90% FWD or AWD.

There are also a fair amount of Mazda 3s, Mini Coopers and Subaru WRXs running around on black steel wheels and winter tires too. Not to mention the CTS's, GTOs, Mustangs and 2WD Silverados, Sierras, and F150s.

Edited April 17, 2007 by BigPontiac

[Camino LS6]

I think it all comes down to this: There is no need whatsoever for every GM brand to offer FWD/AWD - especially Pontiac. Would you buy a FWD Hummer?

If Pontiac truly moves to an all performance lineup, a FWD Pontiac would be as absurd as that Hummer.