Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[balthazar]

That may be your defintion of 'real' Pontiacs... again: not what others of us are advocating, sorry. You are primarily focusing on under-the-skin specs above, which has been unilaterally praised here. The disagreement is over the exterior design.

The 'fence' between the 2 camps here seemingly is the fact that this is a stop-gap car. Some are embracing it because there is no other prompt offering coming. Others are not-so-fast-to-love because they hold Pontiac to a higher ideal reflective of where Pontiac has been, regardless if another vehicle is coming in the near future or not.

[Camino LS6]

Hmm...

There are only three post-Firebird Pontiacs worth owning: Solstice,GTO and G8. The rest don't deserve a place on the lot.

Could GTO and G8 exterior styling be better? Sure, but they are attractive, high quality, perfomance-oriented cars that deliver near BMW levels of refinement at a huge discount.

To me that is a fine recipe for any Pontiac.

Other than Solstice, nothing else Pontiac has had since the end of Firebird deserved its Arrowhead. They are forgetable cars with NO Pontiac DNA save some watered-down cues and undeserved badges.

What we are seeing is the incremental improvement of the breed, the move to new definition of what Pontiac means- and I love it!

I'd like to see a G8 (Grand Prix) built and designed here, with more completely Pontiac exterior details and historic cues. But I'd rather get a high quality Holden re-badge than nothing, which is the only other choice if we want anything in the showroom right now.

Kudos to GM for making it happen with the excellent GTO! And, for continuing to make it happen with the new G8.

Without these two cars and the Solstice, Pontiac has no reason to exist. So, we should rejoice that we have them.

[RJB]

I drove a GTO not too long ago. I was at a Pontiac-GMC dealership and a guy drove in with his and we started talking. He said for me to go take his car for a spin. I was like thats ok, I don't know you, and you don't know me and he insisted. So I took it out. It was an 06 with the 6sp and it had the factory bodykit on it. I was one who thought that the styling was a little polarizing, but after driving it I was like holy sh!t!! this car is awesome!!

Do they still have 2006s on the lots, because I would like to get one?

[Camino LS6]

I drove a GTO not too long ago. I was at a Pontiac-GMC dealership and a guy drove in with his and we started talking. He said for me to go take his car for a spin. I was like thats ok, I don't know you, and you don't know me and he insisted. So I took it out. It was an 06 with the 6sp and it had the factory bodykit on it. I was one who thought that the styling was a little polarizing, but after driving it I was like holy sh!t!! this car is awesome!!

Do they still have 2006s on the lots, because I would like to get one?

Hurry and you might find one.

[z28luvr01]

Time for a shameless plug

[SuperSport623]

It's not a Pontiac it's a Holden!

Well lets look at pontiacs stable right now...

this just left, thank god but:

Its not a pontiac! its a saturn/chevy/buick ripoff! is this the Excitment Minivan?!?!

What have we here? oh, a TOYOTA rebadge? with an EXCITING top of the line GT withunder 200 hp?!

so what makes these more pontiac then a holden? anyone?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hurry and you might find one.

No need to hurry, there are plenty of 06's sitting on dealer lots! Just go to Pontiac's website and see for yourself.

Here is a list from my area alone! There will still be plenty of these Red-Headed Step-children around when the 08 model year rolls in, two years after the fact, not to worry!

http://www.pontiac.com/vehiclelocator/loca...p;x=61&y=13

Edited April 10, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[big blue]

Hmm...

There are only three post-Firebird Pontiacs worth owning: Solstice,GTO and G8. The rest don't deserve a place on the lot.

Quoted for truth.

The last "real" Pontiac to me was the F-bodies and since their disappearance there hasn't be a true Pontiac until the Solstice. The GTO was an excellent car, the styling was derivative as heck but the car could definitely out perform anything Pontiac has shoved out within the last 20 years. Like it or not, even if it was from Holden, the car was a better performing Pontiac than Pontiac's own cars.

Now the G8 is arriving and it can't come soon enough. I'm one of those types who like subtle sportiness in my sedan. I'm not out there trying to find the next Enzo of 4 doors so the G8 suits me fine. The Grand Prix just isn't my cup of tea and the interior is pretty much hard plastic and cheapness everywhere. Plus the styling doesn't help either, I actually think the previous gen GP had better styling than the current one. The new one is just weird and awkward looking. I will say the GXP version does look ok.

I really hope the G8 gives Pontiac a nice spark, and then starts lighting up the sales charts...that'd be nice.

Edited April 10, 2007 by big blue

[RJB]

No need to hurry, there are plenty of 06's sitting on dealer lots! Just go to Pontiac's website and see for yourself.

Here is a list from my area alone! There will still be plenty of these Red-Headed Step-children around when the 08 model year rolls in, two years after the fact, not to worry!

http://www.pontiac.com/vehiclelocator/loca...p;x=61&y=13

I wonder how much they will knock off the msrp on a new one? I went to autotrader and found some new ones on the lot in my area, but when I went to dealership site they were completly different cars from what they listed.

[Camino LS6]

I did a quick search locally and they are out there, but you may have to travel for the color you want.

Locally, there is a 2k rebate or 0% financing.

[RBB]

'68 Camaro:

'68 Firebird:

'71 GTO:

'71 Chevelle:

'76 Grand Prix:

'76 Monte Carlo:

Pontiacs have been rebadges of other products for years. The GTO and teh G8, at least, look like nothing else in GM's North American stable (Cavalier look-alike insults aside). I'd think that's a good thing.

Yes the styling is conservative - some might say bland. IMO, there's a market for that. To me, conservative, if done well, can convey a sophisticated upscale image. Despite what I'm driving currently, I prefer understated styling to wildly overstyled designs.

The G8 isn't perfect. But, I think it's pretty darn good, and a great step toward what Pontiac should have been all along.

-RBB

Edited April 10, 2007 by RBB

[Camino LS6]

I agree,RBB.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The G8 isn't perfect. But, I think it's pretty darn good, and a great step toward what Pontiac should have been all along.

-RBB

Well the G8 nor the GTO, will ever see one red cent out of my pocket. If I wanted a last generation BMW, I would have bought one.

[Camino LS6]

Well the G8 nor the GTO, will ever see one red cent out of my pocket. If I wanted a last generation BMW, I would have bought one.

And you would have paid more for less.

[Cory Wolfe]

Well the G8 nor the GTO, will ever see one red cent out of my pocket. If I wanted a last generation BMW, I would have bought one.

I see... So, you wouldn't choose the better car, then? Okay. Edited April 10, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Oracle of Delphi]

I see... So, you wouldn't choose the better car, then? Okay.

It's not a better car, it's a boring car. You should have studied your B words more, when you were in school.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Okay, so you do like the Grand Prix, but not the GTO?

Please explain why, I'm trying to understand.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Okay, so you do like the Grand Prix, but not the GTO?

Please explain why, I'm trying to understand.

It's a real Pontiac not a pretender to the throne. Holden cars are boring and styled to Australian taste. Plus I know the Holden people up close and personal, they don't like being controled by GM. Which makes me all the happier when I am there! They will never get one penny from me to support their operations. In fact, I would buy BMW before I ever buy a Holden. There is not much love there, between them and I, it's a long sorted personal story and will never be resolved. Let's just say if GM was to ever spin them off, I would not shed one tear.

[Cory Wolfe]

It's not a better car, it's a boring car. You should have studied your B words more, when you were in school.

Heh... Well... You have a few screws lose. Atleast more than myself.

[enzl]

Well the G8 nor the GTO, will ever see one red cent out of my pocket. If I wanted a last generation BMW, I would have bought one.

As opposed to the circa 90's tech in the car you did buy?

I only see good things coming with the GTO's lesson learned and the G8's modern chassis finally reaching Pontiac dealerships...Since you've recently purchased a Pontiac, I'm sure you're aware of the morgue most Pontiac dealers have resembled lately.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Heh... Well... You have a few screws lose. Atleast more than myself.

No BV, I read your blog, you're way more screwed up than I am!

[Cory Wolfe]

No BV, I read your blog, you're way more screwed up than I am!

Haha... Touche.

[Camino LS6]

It's a real Pontiac not a pretender to the throne. Holden cars are boring and styled to Australian taste. Plus I know the Holden people up close and personal, they don't like being controled by GM. Which makes me all the happier when I am there! They will never get one penny from me to support their operations. In fact, I would buy BMW before I ever buy a Holden. There is not much love there, between them and I, it's a long sorted personal story and will never be resolved. Let's just say if GM was to ever spin them off, I would not shed one tear.

OK, so there is a personal element is this - that explains alot.

But in comparing the two cars in question, I come to the opposite conclusion. Not one red cent from me for a car anything like a GP. I see the GP and the other current Pontiacs as the real traitors to what a Pontiac should be. No offense intended but they all make me think "YUCK!"

[Oracle of Delphi]

Haha... Touche.

That's OK, we can be screwed up together.

[Northstar]

No need to hurry, there are plenty of 06's sitting on dealer lots! Just go to Pontiac's website and see for yourself.

Here is a list from my area alone! There will still be plenty of these Red-Headed Step-children around when the 08 model year rolls in, two years after the fact, not to worry!

http://www.pontiac.com/vehiclelocator/loca...p;x=61&y=13

You should do your homework before making a fool of yourself. 702 GTOs were sold last month, and 2352 remain on lots. That equates to less than a 3 1/2 month supply. They'll be gone by the end of summer except for a few. If you want to be able to pick your color or transmission and wheel options, you better act now.

Without these two cars and the Solstice, Pontiac has no reason to exist. So, we should rejoice that we have them.

Exactly. There have been 3 cars that fit the definition of a Pontiac designed past the turn of the century, and those 3 are Solstice, GTO, and G8 (Firebird was not designed before the turn of the century).

That may be your defintion of 'real' Pontiacs... again: not what others of us are advocating, sorry. You are primarily focusing on under-the-skin specs above, which has been unilaterally praised here. The disagreement is over the exterior design.

The 'fence' between the 2 camps here seemingly is the fact that this is a stop-gap car. Some are embracing it because there is no other prompt offering coming. Others are not-so-fast-to-love because they hold Pontiac to a higher ideal reflective of where Pontiac has been, regardless if another vehicle is coming in the near future or not.

What I'm saying is that the "Holdens" are closer to fulfilling any definition of a modern-day Pontiac than the modern day "Pontiacs" do. People can argue that they don't like the styling, but they can't argue that the rest is what a Pontiac is supposed to be and that's a whole lot closer to a Pontiac than "real Pontiacs."

I didn't hear this huge outcry of "that's not a Pontiac!" when GM was feeding us FWD, underpowered cars that handle like crap. Now GM delivers the goods and people bitch more about them than when they were just Chevy's with different styling.

Well the G8 nor the GTO, will ever see one red cent out of my pocket. If I wanted a last generation BMW, I would have bought one.

And you would have paid more for less.

I see... So, you wouldn't choose the better car, then? Okay.

It's not a better car, it's a boring car. You should have studied your B words more, when you were in school.

If you call better performance, 1000x better interior, 1000x better handling, and overall a car that's much more fun to own "boring" compared to what you bought, then there is seriously something wrong. There is no denying that there is no aspect of the GTO that is worse than the GP, except for the trunk. Even the back seats are more comfortable.

Okay, so you do like the Grand Prix, but not the GTO?

Please explain why, I'm trying to understand.

It's a real Pontiac not a pretender to the throne. Holden cars are boring and styled to Australian taste. Plus I know the Holden people up close and personal, they don't like being controled by GM. Which makes me all the happier when I am there! They will never get one penny from me to support their operations. In fact, I would buy BMW before I ever buy a Holden. There is not much love there, between them and I, it's a long sorted personal story and will never be resolved. Let's just say if GM was to ever spin them off, I would not shed one tear.

Your car is a rebagded Chevy with wider front tires and different styling. Yep, a real modern day Pontiac (which, BTW, aren't the description of "real" Pontiacs). If that's what Pontiac is to you, then fine, but the GP doesn't fit the description of a Pontiac, except tthat it has a V8, but the power is delivered through the wrong wheels.

So you have a personal vendetta against Holden because some people they probably insulted you saying how much better Holdens are than Pontiacs, when in fact they were correct?

[Oracle of Delphi]

So you have a personal vendetta against Holden because some people they probably insulted you saying how much better Holdens are than Pontiacs, when in fact they were correct?

Personal vendetta? Your assuming again, you do that alot, didn't your mother teach you never to assume? As far as a real Pontiac goes, what would you know about that? You're what, 20 years old? You were not even alive to experience that time and those cars up close and personal, you came along when? 1987 or so? Long after that era was over. Yes, I have a real Pontiac sitting in my garage it's a 1969 Pontiac Custom-S RWD. You Sir, have a pretender sitting in yours, that is not a GTO, no matter how many badges Lutz sticks on it. Enjoy your Holden, I have the real deal.

[Camino LS6]

Personal vendetta? Your assuming again, you do that alot, didn't your mother teach you never to assume? As far as a real Pontiac goes, what would you know about that? You're what, 20 years old? You were not even alive to experience that time and those cars up close and personal, you came along when? 1987 or so? Long after that era was over. Yes, I have a real Pontiac sitting in my garage it's a 1969 Pontiac Custom-S RWD. You Sir, have a pretender sitting in yours, that is not a GTO, no matter how many badges Lutz sticks on it. Enjoy your Holden, I have the real deal.

Didn't you say yourself that it was personal between you and Holden?

Oh, and I do remember the "real " Pontiacs, they were built bfore FWD corrupted the brand.

[big blue]

It's a real Pontiac not a pretender to the throne. Holden cars are boring and styled to Australian taste. Plus I know the Holden people up close and personal, they don't like being controled by GM. Which makes me all the happier when I am there! They will never get one penny from me to support their operations. In fact, I would buy BMW before I ever buy a Holden. There is not much love there, between them and I, it's a long sorted personal story and will never be resolved. Let's just say if GM was to ever spin them off, I would not shed one tear.

So basically, if the Commodore was made by a different company other than Holden, they would be good cars to you?

[FAPTurbo]

Why would Holden employees be upset about being controlled by GM?

I doubt Holden would be able to survive without GM, and Australia would already be overrun with Toyota's, and Mitsu's.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Didn't you say yourself that it was personal between you and Holden?

Oh, and I do remember the "real " Pontiacs, they were built bfore FWD corrupted the brand.

I know you do, my issue is with Pontiac more so than Holden. Pontiac should have pulled their own ass out of the fire and not relied on foreign aid to do so. End of story!

[Northstar]

There is not much love there, between them and I, it's a long sorted personal story and will never be resolved. Let's just say if GM was to ever spin them off, I would not shed one tear.

Personal vendetta? Your assuming again, you do that alot, didn't your mother teach you never to assume?

Do I need to have my reading comprehension skills checked?

As far as a real Pontiac goes, what would you know about that? You're what, 20 years old? You were not even alive to experience that time and those cars up close and personal, you came along when? 1987 or so? Long after that era was over. Yes, I have a real Pontiac sitting in my garage it's a 1969 Pontiac Custom-S RWD. You Sir, have a pretender sitting in yours, that is not a GTO, no matter how many badges Lutz sticks on it. Enjoy your Holden, I have the real deal.

Pontiac = performance, performance =/= FWD. Most current Pontiacs are FWD. I don't think it matters when I was born to understand the simple equation.

My car is very much a modern-day interpretation of your car. Both V8, both RWD, 2-door coupes...

I will enjoy my Holden, because it's better than anything Pontiac has made, and more of a Pontiac than anything Pontiac has made recently.

[Camino LS6]

I know you do, my issue is with Pontiac more so than Holden. Pontiac should have pulled their own ass out of the fire and not relied on foreign aid to do so. End of story!

On that point, we can agree.

Too bad the fools running GM at the time couldn't figure that out. Holden has shown GMNA what it should be doing itself, and that is way more important than simply importing a few Holden-built cars. The problem is that GMNA moves too slowly, and Pontiac would wither and die by the time they got 'round to it. So I'm glad that Holden was there to keep the fires of performance burning in the meantime.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac is still suffering the effects of bad decisions made in the '80s.

[Oracle of Delphi]

On that point, we can agree.

Too bad the fools running GM at the time couldn't figure that out. Holden has shown GMNA what it should be doing itself, and that is way more important than simply importing a few Holden-built cars. The problem is that GMNA moves too slowly, and Pontiac would wither and die by the time they got 'round to it. So I'm glad that Holden was there to keep the fires of performance burning in the meantime.

Well when it comes to "fools running GM", thats why I report up through Opel and not GMNA!

[balthazar]

Pontiacs have been rebadges of other products for years. {1968, 1971, 1976}"

You need to go look up the automotive definition of "rebadge", because those examples you posted are nothing of the sort.

[Camino LS6]

You need to go look up the automotive definition of "rebadge", because those examples you posted are nothing of the sort.

Have to agree with Balthazar here. The pairs you posted are platform mates, but their differences run much deeper than a badge job.

[ocnblu]

The A-bodies RBB posted only share windshields, and perhaps decklids. The A-specials probably only share windshields. The F-bodies are most alike, they probably share the entire greenhouse, doors and decklids. None of them are rebadges.

I love and appreciate Holden's contribution to the return of RWD at GMNA. Brilliant engineers, imo. But Pontiac is a brand that has historically held AMERICAN STYLE in high esteem. These Australian cars just don't look the part... and looks matter.

[Camino LS6]

The A-bodies RBB posted only share windshields, and perhaps decklids. The A-specials probably only share windshields. The F-bodies are most alike, they probably share the entire greenhouse, doors and decklids. None of them are rebadges.

I love and appreciate Holden's contribution to the return of RWD at GMNA. Brilliant engineers, imo. But Pontiac is a brand that has historically held AMERICAN STYLE in high esteem. These Australian cars just don't look the part... and looks matter.

I see your point,Ocn, but the alternative is having nothing at all beyond Solstice. Pontiac is product-starved and can't wait for a GMNA Zeta.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I was a long-time subscriber, and still buy off the newstands from time-to-time, of both Pontiac Enthusiast and High Performance Pontiac magazines. Many of the readers of both magazines have abandoned Pontiac for their new vehicle purchases; many think Pontiac died after 1979, when the last Pontiac Motor Division engine (nee V8) was manufactured. I don't see many in the Pontiac hobby buying and customizing '90s/'90s Sunbirds, LeMans, TranSports, and Bonnevilles. The '80s and '90s Pontiacs you see at the car shows are Firebirds/Formulas/Trans Ams, Fieros, '97-'03 Grand Prix's, and '99+ Grand Ams (go to tha All-Pontiac show at Englishtown in May for proof).

Pontiac needs new models that will bring those that left, like MYSELF, back into the dealerships. While I like the Solstice, I LOVE the SKY even more (hence why many of my pennies went to Saturn and not Pontiac). While the G6 is nice (I helped find my parents the one they wanted), the trunk was narrower than the AURA and I felt the seats were uncomfortable (side bolsters), not to mention the old GM radio (no iPod input jack) - so again, my money went to Saturn. It's funny that at the NYIAS, Buick is placed BEHIND Saturn, and Pontiac is to the right of Saturn (when visiting the Pontiac stand, I still heard many looking at the Solstice say that they liked the SKY better).

Saturn is filling the void left by Oldsmobile (I know, this is debatable) and is offering those that used to buy Pontiac something they may like to keep them within GM. While the G8 isn't a '77/'78 Special Edition (aka Bandit) Trans Am, a '64 GTO or even a '69 Grand Prix, it is definitely a Pontiac in my eye and has caught my attention. Which is the point, as I lease my cars and replace them every 30-36 months. Do you think GM cares more about what demographic market I'm in, or in the group that hasn't bought a new Pontiac since "new" meant pre-1979? I will tell you this - when my AURA lease is up in 2009, I will give Pontiac another chance by considering the G8... I can't say that the current GP, not even in GXP form, could get me to do that last November!

[CaddyXLR-V]

Personal vendetta? Your assuming again, you do that alot, didn't your mother teach you never to assume? As far as a real Pontiac goes, what would you know about that? You're what, 20 years old? You were not even alive to experience that time and those cars up close and personal, you came along when? 1987 or so? Long after that era was over. Yes, I have a real Pontiac sitting in my garage it's a 1969 Pontiac Custom-S RWD. You Sir, have a pretender sitting in yours, that is not a GTO, no matter how many badges Lutz sticks on it. Enjoy your Holden, I have the real deal.

I'm 22, and I have seen many Pontiacs that were built before I was born. In fact, the 66-67 GTO/Tempest/Le Mans remains one of my favorite cars, and someday I plan on owning one. My brother even owned a 67 GTO, Tempest, and Le Mans . My dad probably has about 8 cars built before 1973 currently. So what does age have to do with anything?

Or are you just mad because Holden makes better Pontiacs than Pontiac itself?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm 22

Yes, I know it shows.

and I have seen many Pontiacs that were built before I was born. In fact, the 66-67 GTO/Tempest/Le Mans remains one of my favorite cars, and someday I plan on owning one. My brother even owned a 67 GTO, Tempest, and Le Mans .

Yes, but you weren't there, you didn't experience the time or the moment, or even the feeling of those days.

My dad probably has about 8 cars built before 1973 currently.

Good for him!

So what does age have to do with anything?

Read my answer to "I have seen many Pontiacs that were built before I was born"

Or are you just mad because Holden makes better Pontiacs than Pontiac itself?

Why would I be mad, Holden is Holden and can only build a Holden. No matter what badges they put on it, it is still a Holden and can never really be a Pontiac!

Have a good day!

Edited April 11, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Robert Hall]

Yes, but you weren't there, you didn't experience the time or the moment, or even the feeling of those days.

So? Pontiac needs to build cars that will appeal to buyers that were born in the '70s and later, not the old folks that were buying cars back then..

Why would I be mad, Holden is Holden and can only build a Holden. No matter what badges they put on it, it is still a Holden and can never really be a Pontiac!

Whatever... most Pontiacs built the last 2 decades have been slightly modified Chevys/Oldses/Buicks..so I don't see the difference, esp. since Holdens aren't sold in the US. Edited April 11, 2007 by moltar

[balthazar]

Is a Pontiac a slightly-modified Chevy or is a Chevy a slightly-modified Pontiac? Are Olds' modified Buicks or modified Pontiacs? Or {gasp} modified Chevys, too? GM has not developed cars in a manner that would lend validity to "modified Chevy" in decades.

[Robert Hall]

Is a Pontiac a slightly-modified Chevy or is a Chevy a slightly-modified Pontiac? Are Olds' modified Buicks or modified Pontiacs? Or {gasp} modified Chevys, too? GM has not developed cars in a manner that would lend validity to "modified Chevy" in decades.

What about the Sunfire? G5? Montana? Torrent? Those were arguably Chevy rebadges...the Solstice (and late GTO) were the first really unique Pontiac (though it now has a Saturn sibling) since the Fiero..the rest of their models have been largely variations on their platform mates from other GM brands with different plastic and different sheetmetal..

Edited April 12, 2007 by moltar

[hyperv6]

If you go by the way some define a Pontiac the last one was.......

Nothing past 1972

1979 10th ann TA with the 400

The last 301 in the 80's

The last 1988 Fiero with the Tech 4 engine....note just for fun it was the last Pontiac engined Pontiacr, It was the last Pontiac Michigan built Pontiac and last Pontiac only Platform.

There still building them today.

It all seem a litttle petty to claim anything but the last that they are still building them today.

My reply when I get comment about My Fiero not being a Pontiac is You have a nice Chevelle there to the GTO owner. What other than the V6 on my car is not Pontiac? All in all most Pontiac people at shows are very good to my club but you get a old timer who is stuck in the 60's and just can't accept anything other than his narrow veiw.

My feeling is there have been many good Pontiacs in a time there were many bad cars in the 80's and 90's so I am glad to accept them as Pontiac's badge engineered or not.

The G8 is more Pontiac than any other car sold in this country and I don't expect to see Holden coming anytime soon.

It is just time for people to quite reliving the past and accept change. Many car shows are ruined by folks who hate the post 1970 cars. Not every one can afford an old car like the youth of today and if you want them in the hobby the old cranks need to accept them or the hobby of collector car and drive in's on saturday night will fade away.

As hard as it is to accept today really is the good old day so enjoy it before it is gone and you regrette it.

I can see a day when the low volume GTO may be the Hemi Cuda of the decade when Hybrid cars become the norm.

Remeber they had to give away Superbirds in 71 to get them off the lots.

Edited April 14, 2007 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

Most Pontiac enthusiasts define the 'last real Pontiac' by the engine ('79 and the 400). But Pontiac lost a huge amount of respect and enthusiasm when the Pontiac engine program died, and tho that was not the only factor, it was an important one.

There has been a ton of change in the past few decades, but it has not always been for the better - so I harbor no ill will to those who recognize and appreciate greatness. And that's what the '60s were for Pontiac; it's not merely sappy nostalgia. We can accept the change of the '90s/'00s or we can aspire for better- it's everyman's choice.

I know I lost a lot of love for Pontiac come the '80s and '90s. They became much more pedestrian & less special to me. I grew up on late '70s and '80s Pontiacs but all 7 I've owned to date have been from the '60s. It's certainly not nostolgia for me- my Pontiacs have all been older than me. It's a recognition of a great run of road machines. I consider myself 'a Pontiac man', and tho those from the '90s thru today that I've experienced have been fine transportation, they've failed to stir the soul. I would LOVE for Pontiac to enact a renaissance ala Cadillac's or Saturn's, to capture even half of the fire that drove the division in the '60s... not looking for blatant design cues (tho there are numerous ones to pay homage to and such would be nice)... I want the fire to return.

hyper- I like and accept the criteria regarding your Fiero- those are meaningful stats in my book that I was unaware of. I have new respect for the Fiero now.

[Chicagoland]

1979 was the last 400ci [6.6L] "Pontiac" engine, the 301 ci motor lasted through 1981.

Argue all day, but since 1926, [yes Pontiac existed before 1964] Pontiac has been a division of GM, not a 'special car company'. It started out as an Oakland model. Before Bunkie Knudsen, the brand was called "old ladies car". [1926-57, 30+ years as a non performance brand! ] It has shared the Chevy body since it was an Oakland car, too.

The old so called 'real' Ponchos still share numerous parts with other GM divisions. That 1964 GTO still has many "64 Chevelle" parts under it. In fact, some in the old car hobby now are saying "GM A body" for the classic mid-sizers, instead of thinking of them as separate cars. Some are putting "GM Corporate" V8's in old ones.

It was all the marketing in the 60's that made car fans back then think of GM's makes as 'special car companies'.

[balthazar]

>>"1979 was the last 400ci [6.6L] "Pontiac" engine, the 301 ci motor lasted through 1981."<<

400 is not a "Pontiac" motor, it is a Pontiac motor.

>>"Argue all day, but since 1926, [yes Pontiac existed before 1964] Pontiac has been a division of GM, not a 'special car company'. It started out as an Oakland model.

...It has shared the Chevy body since it was an Oakland car, too."<<

I won't argue, but I will tell you the facts: Pontiac was NEVER an Oakland model. The division was PAIRED WITH Oakland, which was another (founding) division of General Motors. They shared nothing but the same factory for 1 year.

>>"The old so called 'real' Ponchos still share numerous parts with other GM divisions."<<

Yeah, major identifying components like radiators and generators and carbs and... glass and.... light bulbs.

In reality, a very strict minority percentage-wise. General Motors could've mandated a much greater degree of part cross-sharing even in the '50s, but the reality of the era was that GM was primarily a financial overseer and each division had it's own budget and empowered general manager and each often went against the scant corporate rule list to get what they wanted to accomplish done.

I have been restoring my '59 Buick for 11 years now... believe me- I at times I wish a greater degree of part-sharing went on then. Tons of Chevy stuff including full sheetmetal panels- almost nothing for B-59s. Why? Because there's zero "Chevy" parts under it.

>>"That 1964 GTO still has many "64 Chevelle" parts under it."<<

How do you know what parts are Chevelle and what parts are GTO??

Take a look at the period's volume lines- the full-size series. There are very very few interchangable components there- I estimate less than 7% for '64.

>>"It was all the marketing in the 60's that made car fans back then think of GM's makes as 'special car companies'."<<

Bull&#036;h&#33;. These were not belly-button badge-jobs cars that were identified by marketing campaigns, but divisional-combative efforts from segregated camps that incorporated division-specific engineering... cars produced have become some of the most iconic and sought-after and valuable this country has ever seen.

Edited April 14, 2007 by balthazar

[Camino LS6]

I can tell this, even in '77 when my two current projects were built there was a huge amount of variation among the A bodies. Even cars built on the same platform and by the same division have many unique parts. You discover this when you take one apart and go hunting for parts to restore it with.

[Cory Wolfe]

If you go by the way some define a Pontiac the last one was.......

Nothing past 1972

1979 10th ann TA with the 400

The last 301 in the 80's

The last 1988 Fiero with the Tech 4 engine....note just for fun it was the last Pontiac engined Pontiacr, It was the last Pontiac Michigan built Pontiac and last Pontiac only Platform.

There still building them today.

It all seem a litttle petty to claim anything but the last that they are still building them today.

My reply when I get comment about My Fiero not being a Pontiac is You have a nice Chevelle there to the GTO owner. What other than the V6 on my car is not Pontiac? All in all most Pontiac people at shows are very good to my club but you get a old timer who is stuck in the 60's and just can't accept anything other than his narrow veiw.

My feeling is there have been many good Pontiacs in a time there were many bad cars in the 80's and 90's so I am glad to accept them as Pontiac's badge engineered or not.

The G8 is more Pontiac than any other car sold in this country and I don't expect to see Holden coming anytime soon.

It is just time for people to quite reliving the past and accept change. Many car shows are ruined by folks who hate the post 1970 cars. Not every one can afford an old car like the youth of today and if you want them in the hobby the old cranks need to accept them or the hobby of collector car and drive in's on saturday night will fade away.

As hard as it is to accept today really is the good old day so enjoy it before it is gone and you regrette it.

I can see a day when the low volume GTO may be the Hemi Cuda of the decade when Hybrid cars become the norm.

Remeber they had to give away Superbirds in 71 to get them off the lots.

Gotta love the Fiero.

Anyways, I have to give credit to Balthy. I'm unsure why certain members are trying to imply they were rebadges. They obviously were not. I may have said that styling was similar enough that, if photoshopped, a non car enthusiast would be unable to notice, but never anything more. So if there was any confusion about that, I'm sorry.

Back to the G8, whether you like the styling or not, be glad Pontiac is getting a world class sedan that is able to put a BMW to shame. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it's not ugly by any means, not yet another FWD vehicle, not a rebadge of anything sold here, and not lacking in many ways. For a vehicle this great to wear a Pontiac badge... It's not a disgrace, not a shame, not anything like that. It's the exact opposite. What's in the past, is in the past. As is, the G8 will be a fine counterpart to the Solstice, which can't be said for any other current Pontiac. Myself, I'm a fan of many Pontiacs of all time periods. However I realize that it is a better vehicle, all around, than most of them, regardless of styling. Call it unoriginal, bland, a rebadge, a faux Pontiac.... and I'll call it the best damn unoriginal, bland, rebadge, faux Pontiac I've ever seen.