Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[Cory Wolfe]

No one is saying it has to have the prices that generally come with a niche brand. Obviously, Pontiac doesn't have the brand recognition for that. However, to say Pontiac would fail as a niche brand is just senseless. It's going to be a niche brand whether or not it has "mainstream" vehicles sold under it. What do you think BPG is? It's three niche brands being sold in a single sales channel. GMC will handle upscale trucks, Buick will handle luxury vehicles, and Pontiac will handle performance vehicles. Is FWD necessary to survive? Not at all. I will say that, in order for a predominately RWD lineup to succeed, it alteast needs AWD as an option. Regardless of one's personal bias towards drive wheels, RWD does sell. Look at BMW, Chrysler's LX cars, Ford's Mustang. Pontiac can offer a mainstream vehicle, but why FWD when GM has two other brands that will suit that need better? There is no reason RWD can't sell as a mainstream vehicle.

Edited April 21, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Cory Wolfe]

BMW/Merc/Infiniti sell 30-40% of their lines as AWD nowadays.

Of BMW cars sold in 2006, only 20% were AWD.

[Cory Wolfe]

most of those cars would be 3 series, which is their bread and butter car. I don't think many 5 series sell with AWD yet. Just about every M35 I see here is 'M35x'. the take rate for the G35x is over 30 or 35%. All of the new IS lexus I see here are AWD. There are plenty of folks here if no Xi BMW was offered would go and buy Audi. BMW is stealing back all the lost A4 and A6 sales from the last ten years because they added the AWD to compete that way. The percentages may be skewed to over 50% or more in some part of the country. Audis around here are about 90% or more. simply put, its prevalent because customers across various parts of the US want / need / demand it, and even though its not needed in say, Florida, from a sales standpoint, its needed elsewhere. making it accessible to everyone and not excluding anyone and not screwing dealers over by giving them something they cannot sell.

Don't have the figures for the entire year, but Jan-Nov 2006 BMW sales are as follows.

BMW cars: 192k total, 38k AWD

3-Series: 107k total, 24k AWD

5-Series: 49k total, 14k AWD

7-Series: 16k total, 0k AWD

6-Series: 8k total, 0k AWD

Z4: 11k total, 0k AWD

As far as Audi, other than the R8 and TT, all their vehicles are based on FWD platforms and only offers AWD on most of them.

Edited April 21, 2007 by blackviper8891

[hyperv6]

You can toss out all the numbers you like but Pontiac as it is is failing.

Untill you provide thme with better and different cars then Chevy of Saturn they will fail.

I you thing the G6 is a great car and would save Pontiac alone you had better think again as the bollm is already off that flower.

The days of just revamping a Chevy base platform are over.

People will pay more for a better car if you would provide it the reason they won't now is the cars they provide now are not worth the extra money.

Few people will pay a $10k premium for a car they can go to a Chevy dealer and buy for much less. Other than Cladding and a red dash there has been little to draw non Pontiac fans in.

People complain about the GTO but the G6 styling is the pits. The coupe is ok but the sedan is to narrow and has too much of a Neon look.

I believe Cadillac has already proven that if you make a better car people will buy and pay more for the vehicle. Cadillac also makes more per car and sells less than they did in the darker days.

If Pontiac tries to stay a high volume dealer they will fail as it is already a crowded maket. GM is already covering it well with two divisions and does not need a third to drain sales from the other two.

I think it is plain to see GM is going to chang Pontiac and Buick and they also realize they have to change them. The last time I shopped I shopped Chevy and Pontiac and the reason I bought the Pontiac was they were willing to discount the car more then Chevy. Also there Supercharged engine was the Series III 3800 SC.

If Pontiac dealers have to live on discounted upgraded Chevy platforms they will die even faster. FWD or RWD Pontiac needs to have better cars to live. I would have gladly paid 10K more for a better Pontiac it they offered it. I think many others would too if they could just get the cars that are not offered.

G5 Is nothing but a Cobalt

G6 Is nothing but a older Malibu/Aura that both will offer Sport editions soon for thsoe who don't think they are sporty enough. The two door helps make it different but coupe sales are in the tank in general. The car was over priced for what it is.

The GP dies, It did it's job but it's best days are over and time to catch up with the rest of the industy.

Pontiac has no place selling Mini vans and or cross overs. they are not Excitment. This is GMC's job at this dealer.

The Vibe is nothing but a Toyota and not well accepted by most GM buyers and forggoten by Toyota buyers. The red headed step child.

The G8 is the first step of Pontiac being different and offering a better car. It is a pattern of what we should see more of.

The Solstice also is a good pattern of being different and I only pray that we see no more Kappa's in the US market as it is ok to share with Saturn but never let it also become a Chevy. Only two Kappas for NA market please.

Get Pontiac to be more than a badge engineered line with better use of Holdens and other cars not offered in NA by other divisions. It would get then a better image, better cars and differnt cars.

Even the other Zeta's will be different wheel bases and trim so what they will share here is not just a rebadge and that is key.

Please no rebadge of the Camaro as a Bird please! Pontiac has to do better with a proper longer coupe.

[regfootball]

3-Series: 107k total, 24k AWD

5-Series: 49k total, 14k AWD

see, those are good numbers, about 25% of the two models it is on, considering the x versions are relatively new. That percentage will continue to grow. Its an example of responding to the market.

'someone in the know' confirmed to me that their are about 2800 buick dealers, 100 of those still stand alone. but did not have an idea what the numbers were for pontiac. you could understand why those 2800 dealers would be concerned about profit and volume both. 100,000 buicks for 2800 dealers doens't pay the bills.

I've already said the current G6 was lucklaster. The problem is execution. The Aura is a better executed offering but is still not a sporty enough version. There is no reason why something like the G6 in a new version someday couldn't have top drawer styling powertrains and interiors, and still be different than the other GM cars and something people seek out. You are just judging the car and GM's ability to do that based on GM's typical half ass effort. You might as well just admit GM has no capability of putting out anything besides a half ass car then. I don't see why its such a sin for a G8 to share the showroom with a really well executed perfomance based epsilon for example. Your Torana clone would be a nice offering, sure, but a-where is it, and b-the pricing will not be able to be kept in line like a epsilon car would be. So the torana rebadge if sold here would have to be sold in addition to the G8 and epsilon car. I just don't think they can make the numbers work with just the torana and G8 and a coupe G8 variant. There's not enough other special models in the pipeline I don't think that holden is developing RWD only to fill the lineup with for pontiac. I am not aware of anything besides G8 and the possible Torana and Monaro coupe that GM could sell here as a Pontiac. If its not in the pipeline now, its not anything that can help in the next 3-5 years. Do they even have a go on the Torana?

Even the other Zeta's will be different wheel bases and trim so what they will share here is not just a rebadge and that is key.

becuase that daewoo LX4, holden caprice, and chinese park avenue all look so different already. if there were a quarter million of those 3 roaming the streets here no one would be able to tell the difference between the three. even the fusion/milan's look more different than those three badge jobbed zetas.

Edited April 21, 2007 by regfootball

[CaddyXLR-V]

'someone in the know' confirmed to me that their are about 2800 buick dealers, 100 of those still stand alone. but did not have an idea what the numbers were for pontiac. you could understand why those 2800 dealers would be concerned about profit and volume both. 100,000 buicks for 2800 dealers doens't pay the bills.

Well they're not stand alone, so they don't have to worry about only selling 100,000 cars. There's still 500,000 GMCs and 200,000 Pontiacs.

Also, why not just offer every Pontiac, with the exception to the Solstice, with RWD and AWD? AWD is easier to do on a RWD platform than it is to do on a FWD platform anyway.

[hyperv6]

see, those are good numbers, about 25% of the two models it is on, considering the x versions are relatively new. That percentage will continue to grow. Its an example of responding to the market.

'someone in the know' confirmed to me that their are about 2800 buick dealers, 100 of those still stand alone. but did not have an idea what the numbers were for pontiac. you could understand why those 2800 dealers would be concerned about profit and volume both. 100,000 buicks for 2800 dealers doens't pay the bills.

I've already said the current G6 was lucklaster. The problem is execution. The Aura is a better executed offering but is still not a sporty enough version. There is no reason why something like the G6 in a new version someday couldn't have top drawer styling powertrains and interiors, and still be different than the other GM cars and something people seek out. You are just judging the car and GM's ability to do that based on GM's typical half ass effort. You might as well just admit GM has no capability of putting out anything besides a half ass car then. I don't see why its such a sin for a G8 to share the showroom with a really well executed perfomance based epsilon for example. Your Torana clone would be a nice offering, sure, but a-where is it, and b-the pricing will not be able to be kept in line like a epsilon car would be. So the torana rebadge if sold here would have to be sold in addition to the G8 and epsilon car. I just don't think they can make the numbers work with just the torana and G8 and a coupe G8 variant. There's not enough other special models in the pipeline I don't think that holden is developing RWD only to fill the lineup with for pontiac. I am not aware of anything besides G8 and the possible Torana and Monaro coupe that GM could sell here as a Pontiac. If its not in the pipeline now, its not anything that can help in the next 3-5 years. Do they even have a go on the Torana?

becuase that daewoo LX4, holden caprice, and chinese park avenue all look so different already. if there were a quarter million of those 3 roaming the streets here no one would be able to tell the difference between the three. even the fusion/milan's look more different than those three badge jobbed zetas.

Gee the LX4, Holden and Park Ave are sold in 3 different markets so what over lap do you see in any one country with these models?

In this country if things hold as planned the G8, Impala with different sheet metal, the Camaro with differnet sheet metal and wheel base Or a possible Manaro coupe with a different wheel base are all Zetas and will share nothing but Mechanical bits in NA. If they want to bring the Holden in as a Buick more power to them as it shares little with the G8 in sheet metal.

The Aura is not sporty as they have not offered a Spory version yet. Wait till a Red Line edition comes before you dis this car.

For the money it would take to fix the G6 they may as well start over and if they do make it different from the Chevy and Saturn. Sahre it with only Caddy or another overseas GM nameplate like Saab.

As for models GM is not going to rebuild Pontiac in a year or two. Keep in mind Cadillac is still rebuilding with each new model. It takes a lot of money and time to rebuild a car line.

As for the dealers it is either combine or die time as GM has no need for that many dealers and the weakest will die a painful death if they don't act. Could the lack of product at Buick be part of the goal to kell off the weak dealers?

[Cory Wolfe]

As for the dealers it is either combine or die time as GM has no need for that many dealers and the weakest will die a painful death if they don't act. Could the lack of product at Buick be part of the goal to kell off the weak dealers?

Agreed. GM has more dealers than it needs in the first place. Within a 30 mile radius of Brookville, there are 7 dealers that sell Pontiac and 5 dealers that sell Buicks. This is rural PA. Isn't that a bit excessive?

[turbo200]

Don't have the figures for the entire year, but Jan-Nov 2006 BMW sales are as follows.

BMW cars: 192k total, 38k AWD

3-Series: 107k total, 24k AWD

5-Series: 49k total, 14k AWD

7-Series: 16k total, 0k AWD

6-Series: 8k total, 0k AWD

Z4: 11k total, 0k AWD

As far as Audi, other than the R8 and TT, all their vehicles are based on FWD platforms and only offers AWD on most of them.

thanks for the stats

let's keep in mind the base 3-series has a starting price of $32,000, and goes up all the way to the low $50's, in non M- regular form.

That is a lot more money than we are hoping our potential RWD Pontiac mid sedan to be priced at, yet they can manage around 80k RWD sales a year, starting at 10k more than our theoretical RWD Pontiac sedan would cost.

I would love to see a breakdown by city, but it goes without saying, urban cities and especially cities in CA, are the biggest markets for the 3-series, even as it grows in popularity and gets embraced everywhere else.

The 3-series is the new Camry. [in some ways]

California is BMW's strongest market, and one of GM's weakest market, if not the weakest, in terms of share. On my daily drives, through Los Angeles, through Malibu, through Hollywood, and through the San Fernando Valley [okay I don't drive each one of these daily, but pretty consistently since they're all next to each other], about 80% of the autos on the road are imports, SERIOUSLY!!!! Of the 25% domestic, about 10% are GM, purely GMT900 trucks, SUVs, and Cadillacs in general. ~10% are Ford product F-series Fusion Focus etc. Charger and 300 are very strong here, they are bold statements and image conscious people who like those statements buy em like no tomorrow, Ram is strong.

In other words the code is cracked. Honda and Toyota have gained all of thier sales share thanks to cars in CA and other big cities. Sure, the Nissan small truck was popular here two decades ago, thanks to the large immigrant population, but now F-150 has supplanted that by a large margin. Trucks are not the issue, the Imports have gained at the cost of domestics in big cities where population has expanded and where cars that are smaller on the outside and not short on comfort on the inside, like the new Civic, have gained in popularity!

So cars are the magic formula. Let's take a basic look at the sedan formula at GM for the past two decades, shall we: (a) floaty, (b) marshmallowy © tall dash (d) floaty (e) big bench seats (f) big steering wheels (g) floaty (h) seats softer than a sofa (i) huge (j) floaty (k) "dial back the feedback Jean, I ken feel too much commotion goin on down ther" (l) floaty (m) unrefined (n) floaty (o) big turning radii (p) difficult to manage in tight spots (q) floaty.

A big portion of the roads in LA are twisty roads, like 50%. They are also the most scenic, beautiful routes, closest to Italy in thier aspect in some places, that I have ever seen in my life. They are also very important to avoid traffic on the freeways. And these twisty roads are seriously small and winding roads. And a lot of people live on them. They are what lead to the quintessential American dream home in the hills. GM has lost so much share because Honda solved the family sedan solution back in the 1980's with the Accord. Nissan was also huge then. BMW always made its mark thanks to solid suspensions but also that European elegant cache. I could go on forever. GM has never figured out how to make a suspension worthy of holding its own. Even my recent test in a G6 and CTS left me wanting a lot more.

These have still been record sales years for GM. So it's not the number of units that's the problem, but all the share that has gone to the imports. You can thank places like SoCal for that.

That is the code that must be cracked. Gain sales in LA and you will gain share.

How does this relate to Pontiac? Maybe a cool G6 that can hold its own on the twisties with BMW, has real presence and a commodious interior with quality, and you'll have a hit here. Then, with its nice style, and athletic proportions, it will gain attention the country over and everyone will want a Pontiac again.

Edited April 21, 2007 by turbo200

[regfootball]

Gee the LX4, Holden and Park Ave are sold in 3 different markets so what over lap do you see in any one country with these models?

In this country if things hold as planned the G8, Impala with different sheet metal, the Camaro with differnet sheet metal and wheel base Or a possible Manaro coupe with a different wheel base are all Zetas and will share nothing but Mechanical bits in NA. If they want to bring the Holden in as a Buick more power to them as it shares little with the G8 in sheet metal.

The Aura is not sporty as they have not offered a Spory version yet. Wait till a Red Line edition comes before you dis this car.

For the money it would take to fix the G6 they may as well start over and if they do make it different from the Chevy and Saturn. Sahre it with only Caddy or another overseas GM nameplate like Saab.

As for models GM is not going to rebuild Pontiac in a year or two. Keep in mind Cadillac is still rebuilding with each new model. It takes a lot of money and time to rebuild a car line.

As for the dealers it is either combine or die time as GM has no need for that many dealers and the weakest will die a painful death if they don't act. Could the lack of product at Buick be part of the goal to kell off the weak dealers?

BTW, just drove an Aura XR. Nice engine and tranny, but otherwise not impressed.

[regfootball]

thanks for the stats

let's keep in mind the base 3-series has a starting price of $32,000, and goes up all the way to the low $50's, in non M- regular form.

That is a lot more money than we are hoping our potential RWD Pontiac mid sedan to be priced at, yet they can manage around 80k RWD sales a year, starting at 10k more than our theoretical RWD Pontiac sedan would cost.

I would love to see a breakdown by city, but it goes without saying, urban cities and especially cities in CA, are the biggest markets for the 3-series, even as it grows in popularity and gets embraced everywhere else.

The 3-series is the new Camry. [in some ways]

California is BMW's strongest market, and one of GM's weakest market, if not the weakest, in terms of share. On my daily drives, through Los Angeles, through Malibu, through Hollywood, and through the San Fernando Valley [okay I don't drive each one of these daily, but pretty consistently since they're all next to each other], about 80% of the autos on the road are imports, SERIOUSLY!!!! Of the 25% domestic, about 10% are GM, purely GMT900 trucks, SUVs, and Cadillacs in general. ~10% are Ford product F-series Fusion Focus etc. Charger and 300 are very strong here, they are bold statements and image conscious people who like those statements buy em like no tomorrow, Ram is strong.

In other words the code is cracked. Honda and Toyota have gained all of thier sales share thanks to cars in CA and other big cities. Sure, the Nissan small truck was popular here two decades ago, thanks to the large immigrant population, but now F-150 has supplanted that by a large margin. Trucks are not the issue, the Imports have gained at the cost of domestics in big cities where population has expanded and where cars that are smaller on the outside and not short on comfort on the inside, like the new Civic, have gained in popularity!

So cars are the magic formula. Let's take a basic look at the sedan formula at GM for the past two decades, shall we: (a) floaty, (b) marshmallowy © tall dash (d) floaty (e) big bench seats (f) big steering wheels (g) floaty (h) seats softer than a sofa (i) huge (j) floaty (k) "dial back the feedback Jean, I ken feel too much commotion goin on down ther" (l) floaty (m) unrefined (n) floaty (o) big turning radii (p) difficult to manage in tight spots (q) floaty.

A big portion of the roads in LA are twisty roads, like 50%. They are also the most scenic, beautiful routes, closest to Italy in thier aspect in some places, that I have ever seen in my life. They are also very important to avoid traffic on the freeways. And these twisty roads are seriously small and winding roads. And a lot of people live on them. They are what lead to the quintessential American dream home in the hills. GM has lost so much share because Honda solved the family sedan solution back in the 1980's with the Accord. Nissan was also huge then. BMW always made its mark thanks to solid suspensions but also that European elegant cache. I could go on forever. GM has never figured out how to make a suspension worthy of holding its own. Even my recent test in a G6 and CTS left me wanting a lot more.

These have still been record sales years for GM. So it's not the number of units that's the problem, but all the share that has gone to the imports. You can thank places like SoCal for that.

That is the code that must be cracked. Gain sales in LA and you will gain share.

How does this relate to Pontiac? Maybe a cool G6 that can hold its own on the twisties with BMW, has real presence and a commodious interior with quality, and you'll have a hit here. Then, with its nice style, and athletic proportions, it will gain attention the country over and everyone will want a Pontiac again.

if you buy into the theory that as California goes, so goes the world. maybe. I was also just at the caddy dealer. they didn't have a manual CTS i could beat on today but i was chatting with the sales guy. he said they are really looking forward to the 08 CTS, because of the new design and because 'it finally has all wheel drive'. He said all the STS they stock are AWD because they can't sell the RWD only ones. He said the CTS sells alright because of the low price point but that people that don't know the car is RWD are surprised to hear that becuase it looks like a FWD car. FWIW, the sales guy used to own a 3 series. He said the SRX's are what they sell the most of and that they had moved 3 just this weekend.

[Oracle of Delphi]

if you buy into the theory that as California goes, so goes the world. maybe. I was also just at the caddy dealer. they didn't have a manual CTS i could beat on today but i was chatting with the sales guy. he said they are really looking forward to the 08 CTS, because of the new design and because 'it finally has all wheel drive'. He said all the STS they stock are AWD because they can't sell the RWD only ones. He said the CTS sells alright because of the low price point but that people that don't know the car is RWD are surprised to hear that becuase it looks like a FWD car. FWIW, the sales guy used to own a 3 series. He said the SRX's are what they sell the most of and that they had moved 3 just this weekend.

I'm leaning to either a Cadillac CTS with AWD or a BMW 530xi. I'm leaning more to the 530xi, than to the Caddy at this point.

[ocnblu]

Well, be prepared to get to know your service advisor very well, if you decide on the BMW. :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, be prepared to get to know your service advisor very well, if you decide on the BMW. :AH-HA_wink:

I don't mind that, it's better than getting to know my Holden service advisor, Umm I mean my Pontiac service advisor! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited April 22, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[BigPontiac]

Well, be prepared to get to know your service advisor very well, if you decide on the BMW. :AH-HA_wink:

The two BMWs I've had have been very good...however when there are issues, the dealer just replaces the parts and makes BMW eat it. BMW and their service surveys are a HUGE thing to the dealers. Lots of coaching to attempt to get their "5" rating.

I've become much more familiar with my GMC Service Advisor now that I've cleared 5yrs/60K on my Sierra. I've seemingly replaced every seal and "vent" in the front axle/diff. I can't wait until the 6-speed auto arrives in the new Sierra! Although, the door closed "weird" on 2007 Sierra X-Cab I looked at this morning at the dealer while I got my oil changed (like the striker wasn't totally aligned). I'm not sure if it was that particular truck or what...also, it was an SLT but had black door handles...so maybe the dealer messed with it. The interior of the cab seemed smaller in back than my current truck too, so I need to return with a tape measure to verify...

[balthazar]

>>"These have still been record sales years for GM. So it's not the number of units that's the problem, but all the share that has gone to the imports."<<

'Marketshare' is a media buzzword that paints a slanted picture. It's grossly over-emphasized.

What was the 3-series marketshare in it's segment in 2000 and what was it in 2006? We never hear 'marketshare' there or in many places WRT foreign models or brands, only with domestic ones. Why- is it a meaningful marker or a down-n-dirty way to try and prove a point? Let's either use it unilaterally or drop the statistic entirely, because the manner in which it's used now is meaningless and arbitrary and agenda-driven. And since the media cannot be bothered to hold most of the foreign makes/models up to this light, let's drop it.

BMWs in Jersey follow each other in groups of 3 or 4- they are as common as toyotas here. Central Jersey HAS to be one of the biggest concentrations in the country. Isn't their U.S. headquarters still here? They still fail to impress upon inspection, tho I have not hammered on one yet. However, a BMW remains the #1 most uncomforatble vehicle I've ever sat in. Was like plywood boxes with cheap vinyl covering stapled on. And I read saliva-dripping descriptions, many of them here, loaded with cliche terms to describe these cars and I approach a parked one expecting an enlightenment, an experience, a glimpse of nirvana thru the window.... but there's.... nothing but more of the same. Then it occurs to me: Loyalist-Vision.

Must be the very same affliction that leads those so stricken to believe that every single consumer wants a BMW and everything else is junk in comparison. C'mon, admit it, there's a handful of BMWs you lust for, how could you not? After all, southern Californias just LUV them.

Must be something wrong with me.... and everyone I know.

[BigPontiac]

BMWs in Jersey follow each other in groups of 3 or 4- they are as common as toyotas here. Central Jersey HAS to be one of the biggest concentrations in the country. Isn't their U.S. headquarters still here? They still fail to impress upon inspection, tho I have not hammered on one yet. However, a BMW remains the #1 most uncomforatble vehicle I've ever sat in. Was like plywood boxes with cheap vinyl covering stapled on. And I read saliva-dripping descriptions, many of them here, loaded with cliche terms to describe these cars and I approach a parked one expecting an enlightenment, an experience, a glimpse of nirvana thru the window.... but there's.... nothing but more of the same. Then it occurs to me: Loyalist-Vision.

Must be the very same affliction that leads those so stricken to believe that every single consumer wants a BMW and everything else is junk in comparison. C'mon, admit it, there's a handful of BMWs you lust for, how could you not? After all, southern Californias just LUV them.

Must be something wrong with me.... and everyone I know.

I believe BMW NA is headquartered in Westwood, NJ. Also, I think they own the BMW of Manhattan and Westchester BMW stores. Open Road BMW seemed to be the dealer in central Jersey with Otto's picking up the Philly area. I bought my car in Newport, RI...but for a few weeks I had assembled the inventory for PA/NJ/NY/CT/RI/MA looking for my particular car.

The general assumption people make with BMW is that it's a luxury car, which to me is where the disconnect happens. They're quick, satisfying to drive and handle well, but the interior has that whole German minimalist thing going on. You're expected to adapt to their way of thinking...cupholders, etc are not priorities at BMW. I actually like the interior in my 2005 better than my dad's 2007 (new bodystyle). Up until recently, they've been one of the only manufacturers to offer cars with RWD and manual transmissions. Ironic that's resulted in them becoming the leading "anti-Camry" alternative...and that over popularity is exactly why many of us feel Pontiac has an opportunity with a RWD line-up.

[Northstar]

I don't mind that, it's better than getting to know my Holden service advisor, Umm I mean my Pontiac service advisor! :AH-HA_wink:

Funny, I've never had to see my Pontiac service adviser. The GTO is without a doubt the most reliable car we've ever had, and it without a doubt gets driven harder than any other car.

[regfootball]

I believe BMW NA is headquartered in Westwood, NJ. Also, I think they own the BMW of Manhattan and Westchester BMW stores. Open Road BMW seemed to be the dealer in central Jersey with Otto's picking up the Philly area. I bought my car in Newport, RI...but for a few weeks I had assembled the inventory for PA/NJ/NY/CT/RI/MA looking for my particular car.

The general assumption people make with BMW is that it's a luxury car, which to me is where the disconnect happens. They're quick, satisfying to drive and handle well, but the interior has that whole German minimalist thing going on. You're expected to adapt to their way of thinking...cupholders, etc are not priorities at BMW. I actually like the interior in my 2005 better than my dad's 2007 (new bodystyle). Up until recently, they've been one of the only manufacturers to offer cars with RWD and manual transmissions. Ironic that's resulted in them becoming the leading "anti-Camry" alternative...and that over popularity is exactly why many of us feel Pontiac has an opportunity with a RWD line-up.

BMW went from having possibly the best driver appointed interior ever in the last 3 series to the pure garbage it has in the latest 3 series. so much for progress. minimalist is being to kind. 'Cheap' would be a more useful description. I can't imagine in good consceince dropping 40k on a car with an interior like that. The new 5 series interior I just flat out find bizarre. again, BMW may be a great drive, but the interior amenities it seems to me they have taken a major step backwards, and probably intentionally, so as not to be taken to much as a poseur wagon. in pictures it looks like the new C Class tanks it in interiors. As much as I hate Toyota, i feel the IS is a damn nice car. I do like the IS styling and its interior is well done if very cramped. Nissan sort of mailed it in with its G35 reskin but the basic car was pretty sound so it should still do well. The whole Audi aesthetic is tired and has been done to death, inside and out. Talk about a company that is mailing it in. Look at that steaming carl they call Q7. The A4 is deathly dull. V40 interior is econocar. CTS has a great opportunity here. In pictures the new CTS looks very promising, inside and out. I am sure they will raise the price accordingly.

Edited April 22, 2007 by regfootball

[Oracle of Delphi]

BMW went from having possibly the best driver appointed interior ever in the last 3 series to the pure garbage it has in the latest 3 series. so much for progress. minimalist is being to kind. 'Cheap' would be a more useful description. I can't imagine in good consceince dropping 40k on a car with an interior like that. The new 5 series interior I just flat out find bizarre. again, BMW may be a great drive, but the interior amenities it seems to me they have taken a major step backwards, and probably intentionally, so as not to be taken to much as a poseur wagon. in pictures it looks like the new C Class tanks it in interiors. As much as I hate Toyota, i feel the IS is a damn nice car. I do like the IS styling and its interior is well done if very cramped. Nissan sort of mailed it in with its G35 reskin but the basic car was pretty sound so it should still do well. The whole Audi aesthetic is tired and has been done to death, inside and out. Talk about a company that is mailing it in. Look at that steaming carl they call Q7. The A4 is deathly dull. V40 interior is econocar. CTS has a great opportunity here. In pictures the new CTS looks very promising, inside and out. I am sure they will raise the price accordingly.

Well for me, my Grand Prix GXP most likely will be the last Pontiac I buy, and if I don't like the CTS when I see an actual production version, it may be the last GM vehicle I buy period. Hello BMW!

[turbo200]

>>"These have still been record sales years for GM. So it's not the number of units that's the problem, but all the share that has gone to the imports."<<

'Marketshare' is a media buzzword that paints a slanted picture. It's grossly over-emphasized.

What was the 3-series marketshare in it's segment in 2000 and what was it in 2006? We never hear 'marketshare' there or in many places WRT foreign models or brands, only with domestic ones. Why- is it a meaningful marker or a down-n-dirty way to try and prove a point? Let's either use it unilaterally or drop the statistic entirely, because the manner in which it's used now is meaningless and arbitrary and agenda-driven. And since the media cannot be bothered to hold most of the foreign makes/models up to this light, let's drop it.

BMWs in Jersey follow each other in groups of 3 or 4- they are as common as toyotas here. Central Jersey HAS to be one of the biggest concentrations in the country. Isn't their U.S. headquarters still here? They still fail to impress upon inspection, tho I have not hammered on one yet. However, a BMW remains the #1 most uncomforatble vehicle I've ever sat in. Was like plywood boxes with cheap vinyl covering stapled on. And I read saliva-dripping descriptions, many of them here, loaded with cliche terms to describe these cars and I approach a parked one expecting an enlightenment, an experience, a glimpse of nirvana thru the window.... but there's.... nothing but more of the same. Then it occurs to me: Loyalist-Vision.

Must be the very same affliction that leads those so stricken to believe that every single consumer wants a BMW and everything else is junk in comparison. C'mon, admit it, there's a handful of BMWs you lust for, how could you not? After all, southern Californias just LUV them.

Must be something wrong with me.... and everyone I know.

I've seen market share applied to the imports, pretty much all the time, but it's always a positive. When you start out with nothing, you have no where to go but up. GM and the domestics' story has been that of a market share slide. The media has been talking about it for decades, but GM was arrogant and relied on their loyal consumers. Now the loyal consumers are switching over in droves and there is no end in sight. Oh ya, is that the picture the media paints that you don't like? It's the truth, it does hurt; but the media has been talking about it for years, and telling GM what the problem was with the product. GM hasn't gotten smart about it until very very recently.

As for the BMW, of course I lust after one. Haven't you ever read a post of mine? I love their simplistic nature.

[ocnblu]

Yes, there were things wrong with the GTO and GM's presentation of it to the market, but if Camino says it's the finest GM car he's ever owned, I have to defer to that. My issue has only ever been with styling anyway. It's not like I could have afforded one, so the price didn't affect me (although with all the discounts, I could have maybe, but insurance would have been high, no doubt.) Edited April 22, 2007 by ocnblu

[hyperv6]

Yes, there were things wrong with the GTO and GM's presentation of it to the market, but if Camino says it's the finest GM car he's ever owned, I have to defer to that. My issue has only ever been with styling anyway. It's not like I could have afforded one, so the price didn't affect me (although with all the discounts, I could have maybe, but insurance would have been high, no doubt.)

I still feel styling and price would have not been a big issue with the general public if the Mustang has not arrived when it did.

Also dealer mark up did stop me from buying as I will not pay over sticker and I have no issue with styling.

Last week I looked at a 06 Six speed and it is at the price I would have paid two years ago but with it out of production, I hate to buy an old car. I am now willing to wait for a new Pontiac or Camaro.

Like it or not this car was more Pontiac than anything they have built or I have owned in year. I thill think the inteiror was onw of the best quality ever done. If my GP had one like this It may be a car that ewas still viable.

Edited April 22, 2007 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I guess I need to chime in here again.

When I was in the market for a new car in 2004, only two were candidates. A 3series BMW and the GTO. Having driven 3 series as well as 4 different 5 series often (including two examples of the amazing M5), I had come to appreciate BMW in a large way. However, just one test drive in a GTO told me all I needed to know. The GTO offered build quality,interior, and handling that equaled the 3, and outpowered even the M3 at about a 20k discount.

It was a no-brainer decision for me.

Like Northie, I've had no reason to get to know my Pontiac service department.

The car feels as solid and balanced today as the day I got it.

My feeling is that BMW has made some missteps since then and this is Pontiac's best chance to make inroads into that market.

Bang for the buck is King, and Pontiac is the ideal weapon for GM to use to gain credibility in the RWD market.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My feeling is that BMW has made some missteps since then and this is Pontiac's best chance to make inroads into that market.

And what are these missteps? I don't think you will be able to convince many people in the real world of that!

Bang for the buck is King, and Pontiac is the ideal weapon for GM to use to gain credibility in the RWD market.

That's like saying people will buy store brand peanutbutter instead of Skippy or Jiff! It just isn't going to happen it's all about the name brand recognition, and Pontiac is considered storebrand. I know if i have the choice between Skippy(BMW) or storebrand(G8), which one I'll buy!

[Flybrian]

And what are these missteps? I don't think you will be able to convince many people in the real world of that!

iDrive.

Styling.

The fact that there is a BMW everywhere. As someone said previously, 3er is the Camry of 'hip' markets, and that has all sorts of negatives along with positives.

[Oracle of Delphi]

iDrive.

Styling.

The fact that there is a BMW everywhere. As someone said previously, 3er is the Camry of 'hip' markets, and that has all sorts of negatives along with positives.

Well when I replace the GXP in 2 years it won't be a 3er it will be a 5er (530xi to be exact). I will look at the 2009 CTS-V 1st, but I'm being pulled towards BMW. The G8 doesn't do it for me, why would I want a clone of a last generation BMW, after all that was Mike Simcoe's benchmark as I recall.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[regfootball]

Well for me, my Grand Prix GXP most likely will be the last Pontiac I buy, and if I don't like the CTS when I see an actual production version, it may be the last GM vehicle I buy period. Hello BMW!

I like the GXP grand prix but felt it really needed the 6 speed automatic. actually, the powertrain in the aura is awesome, but overall, after driving the aura, i would definitely say I would prefer the Grand Prix to have the Aura's powertrain available. I like the way the grand prix drives but have always disliked the 4 speed autos and the pushrod 3800.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I like the GXP grand prix but felt it really needed the 6 speed automatic. actually, the powertrain in the aura is awesome, but overall, after driving the aura, i would definitely say I would prefer the Grand Prix to have the Aura's powertrain available. I like the way the grand prix drives but have always disliked the 4 speed autos and the pushrod 3800.

I don't have the 3800.

[balthazar]

>>"And what are these missteps? I don't think you will be able to convince many people in the real world of that!"<<

Many of the people you are referring to are not in the real world, but in BMW World.

turbo200 : >>"As for the BMW, of course I lust after one. Haven't you ever read a post of mine? "<<

Yes; but your mouthful-of-drool makes it hard to read your posts seriously.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well when I replace the GXP in 2 years it won't be a 3er it will be a 5er (530xi to be exact). I will look at the 2009 CTS-V 1st, but I'm being pulled towards BMW. The G8 doesn't do it for me, why would I want a clone of a last generation BMW, after all that was Mike Simcoe's benchmark as I recall.

To save yourself $30k compared to a new M5?

[CaddyXLR-V]

The insurance for the GTO is actually very low compared to similar cars. It's cheaper than the much less powerful 3 series, G35, 350Z, and is barely higher than my 98 Grand Prix GTP. It's equal to a 3.6L CTS with the sport suspension. Being 22, I wouldn't have bought a GTO if the insurance was high.

Also, not everyone can afford a BMW 5 series. The V8 G8 will have over 100 more hp and still be $20,000 cheaper than the BMW. If you want the BMW but can't afford it, logic tells me you will buy the most similar car that you can afford. That's the G8. I like BMWs, but they seem too underpowered for me. The only one I have a real interest in is the 335i, the M3, and the M5. I was on my way to go look at a 330i when I got a call from the person I bought the GTO from. It took me 3 months to find the GTO how I wanted it. I looked at at least 10 different dealerships, and none of them could hold on to the 05-06 manual GTOs for more than a couple of days.

And still, every other GTO I drive by, the driver waves to me, I guess they love their car as much as I love mine. Someone even picked up their camera, and took a picture of my car when I was pulling into a parking lot.

[Camino LS6]

Outperform and underprice BMW, and you have a winning combination.

As long as the marketing is done right.

You don't even have to take their business to make it work, plenty of folks aspire to BMW but can't (or don't want to) spend the money for one.

It's obvious.

[ocnblu]

I am reminded of an old truism:

What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

On the BMW, the pricks are on the inside. :AH-HA_wink:

When I worked for my previous employer, one of our lines was BMW, and I have to tell you in all honesty, BMW customers were some of the most insufferable, pompous a-holes I've ever dealt with.

And I know there were a huge amount of repairs done after the vehicles were out of warranty that the dealership ate just to keep the a-holes happy. Not sure how much of that was passed along to BMW.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I am reminded of an old truism:

What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

On the BMW, the pricks are on the inside. :AH-HA_wink:

Well ocnblu I defer to your expert opinion on the above topic! :AH-HA_wink:

When I worked for my previous employer, one of our lines was BMW, and I have to tell you in all honesty, BMW customers were some of the most insufferable, pompous a-holes I've ever dealt with.[/b]

Are you trying to say I will feel right at home ocnblu?

[ocnblu]

No no no, Custom-S. You misunderstand. I am trying to sway you away from becoming a BMW customer. I am not saying you're any of those things. Is it working? :AH-HA_wink:

Seriously, yes, there are some true enthusiasts left out there who aspire to and buy a BMW for the driving experience. But when it becomes an "image" thing, where the buyer has no intention of driving the car the way the manufacturer intended, then it changes. The "image" of the BMW driver has morphed from enthusiast to a-hole, by and large, and I hope BMW doesn't lose sight of their stated mission to please these poseurs. They've become tainted.

I do know that, like most European cars, they require the customer to "trade" something to get that nice driving feel, hence my "familiar service advisor" comments. I am not an expert, I worked in the bodyshop, not the service department (although I dealt with service advisors over there fairly often when we had to coordinate repairs between the departments). I did have to deal with it first hand as a customer with each of my 4 VW's, though.

[turbo200]

Outperform and underprice BMW, and you have a winning combination.

As long as the marketing is done right.

You don't even have to take their business to make it work, plenty of folks aspire to BMW but can't (or don't want to) spend the money for one.

It's obvious.

you have to get this one right more than the others. The car has to be a redefinition for the brand in terms of image. Pontiac right now stands for something very unattractive. To get as far away from that as possible, the look of the car in and out has to represent something as different for Pontiac as the Trax and Beat are different for Chevy. These cars have to redefine Pontiac like Buick is seeking to be redefined with the Riviera. Not in terms of the sporty nature of that concept, but in terms of a break from the past with new ideas about design.

Next is the quality look and feel of the interior. Next is the suspension feel and performance nature. Make it a real fun to drive car, something that doesn't feel heavy, something that is tossable. Next is the marketing, and pricing/equipment goes into that. Mazda offers some fantastic colors/equipment on every car model in thier lineup; Pontiac is a damn shame and looks like their living in another century next to Mazda. Marketing and product imaging is definitely a huge downfall at GM. Even the CTS has been so mismanaged. The wheels that are still geriatric, the sober colors, the lack of exterior refinements to make it look a little sportier. I just can't say enough for how much a little detail like aggressive side sills add to the image of a strong performing car. Look at the Mazda 3.

[regfootball]

I don't have the 3800.

yes, i know. i was just merely saying i wouldn't want the grand prix with a 3800. if i could have had the GXP with a 6 speed tranny, or just a plain grand prix with the 3.6HF and 6 speed, then I would have considered getting one. The 3800 and 4 speed in the grand prix were of no interest to me and ruined the car.

[regfootball]

The insurance for the GTO is actually very low compared to similar cars. It's cheaper than the much less powerful 3 series, G35, 350Z, and is barely higher than my 98 Grand Prix GTP. It's equal to a 3.6L CTS with the sport suspension. Being 22, I wouldn't have bought a GTO if the insurance was high.

Also, not everyone can afford a BMW 5 series. The V8 G8 will have over 100 more hp and still be $20,000 cheaper than the BMW. If you want the BMW but can't afford it, logic tells me you will buy the most similar car that you can afford. That's the G8. I like BMWs, but they seem too underpowered for me. The only one I have a real interest in is the 335i, the M3, and the M5. I was on my way to go look at a 330i when I got a call from the person I bought the GTO from. It took me 3 months to find the GTO how I wanted it. I looked at at least 10 different dealerships, and none of them could hold on to the 05-06 manual GTOs for more than a couple of days.

And still, every other GTO I drive by, the driver waves to me, I guess they love their car as much as I love mine. Someone even picked up their camera, and took a picture of my car when I was pulling into a parking lot.

I can confirm that....i priced GTO insurance a couple years ago and it was very much the same as a Taurus or grand Prix. ultimatelyas cool as the GTO is, for me it made no sense to have a RWD high hp car in icy cold climate with only 2 doors and no trunk trying to get a kid in the back car seat.

yes blu, i liked your post. mainly because at least in these parts, most people driving bmw's are chicks in 3 series or pompous jerkasses or hairclub for men members. bmw is all image. they just do a good job keeping the image up by at least making the hardware live up to the image. their cars aren't even style leaders these days either, that's what boggles my mind.

Edited April 23, 2007 by regfootball

[turbo200]

this is relevant to this discussion

Rental Sales

[Northstar]

Well when I replace the GXP in 2 years it won't be a 3er it will be a 5er (530xi to be exact). I will look at the 2009 CTS-V 1st, but I'm being pulled towards BMW. The G8 doesn't do it for me, why would I want a clone of a last generation BMW, after all that was Mike Simcoe's benchmark as I recall.

You bought a GP GXP over a 530xi but wouldn't buy a G8 over a 530xi? :rotflmao:

There are some very, very lose screws in your head.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You bought a GP GXP over a 530xi but wouldn't buy a G8 over a 530xi? :rotflmao:

There are some very, very lose screws in your head.

Not really, I can buy almost anything I want, when I want, for now the GXP suits my needs. Unlike you I will never buy Holden, their designs are to say the least uninspired. Look at that Monaro you're driving, it looks like a 2 door Catera to me, all Holden did was put a chevy engine in it! WOW! Mike Simcoe benchmarked the G8 against the last generation BMWs, that's why it looks so much like it. Why would I want a copy of a last generation BMW, when I can have the current version that is true BMW anytime I like?

Talk about screws lose in your head, you bought a car that stylewise looks very early 90's. :rotflmao:

To each their own, I hope you enjoy your Holden.

[Cory Wolfe]

Any Holden > Any W-body.

And again, regardless of what vehicle was it's benchmark, there have been comparisons where the new Commodore has beaten a current generation BMW 5 series.

Edited April 23, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Northstar]

Not really, I can buy almost anything I want, when I want, for now the GXP suits my needs. Unlike you I will never buy Holden, their designs are to say the least uninspired. Look at that Monaro you're driving, it looks like a 2 door Catera to me, all Holden did was put a chevy engine in it! WOW! Mike Simcoe benchmarked the G8 against the last generation BMWs, that's why it looks so much like it. Why would I want a copy of a last generation BMW, when I can have the current version that is true BMW anytime I like?

Talk about screws lose in your head, you bought a car that stylewise looks very early 90's. :rotflmao:

To each their own, I hope you enjoy your Holden.

Early 90s? Those cars looked like boxes, for the most part. More like early 2000s.

Oh, and last I checked, your car has a Chevy engine put in an otherwise below average car. WOW!

Why would you want to copy? Well, numerous mags have said that the new 5-Series, with all it's electronic gizmo's, is a worse driver's car than the last-gen (and has lost some of it's BMW heritage by doing so), which is what the G8 "copy's." In addition, the Commodore has been said to be very similar to the previous M5, which again, would be more like a true BMW than the current one due to electronic intervention.

I think everyone knows you hate Holden and wouldn't drive one even if they were the greatest cars in the world. Therefore, your opinion of them is null and void.

Any Holden > Any W-body.

And again, regardless of what vehicle was it's benchmark, there have been comparisons where the new Commodore has beaten a current generation BMW 5 series.

It's probably beaten the current 5er because as I said above, the last 5er (the "benchmark" for the Commodore) drives better than the current 5er. But don't tell you-know-who that.

[prinzSD]

Hmm...

There are only three post-Firebird Pontiacs worth owning: Solstice,GTO and G8. The rest don't deserve a place on the lot.

Could GTO and G8 exterior styling be better? Sure, but they are attractive, high quality, perfomance-oriented cars that deliver near BMW levels of refinement at a huge discount.

To me that is a fine recipe for any Pontiac.

Other than Solstice, nothing else Pontiac has had since the end of Firebird deserved its Arrowhead. They are forgetable cars with NO Pontiac DNA save some watered-down cues and undeserved badges.

What we are seeing is the incremental improvement of the breed, the move to new definition of what Pontiac means- and I love it!

I'd like to see a G8 (Grand Prix) built and designed here, with more completely Pontiac exterior details and historic cues. But I'd rather get a high quality Holden re-badge than nothing, which is the only other choice if we want anything in the showroom right now.

Kudos to GM for making it happen with the excellent GTO! And, for continuing to make it happen with the new G8.

Without these two cars and the Solstice, Pontiac has no reason to exist. So, we should rejoice that we have them.

Amen to that...I agree 100%. Camino, do you still own the Firehawk?

[prinzSD]

I drove a GTO not too long ago. I was at a Pontiac-GMC dealership and a guy drove in with his and we started talking. He said for me to go take his car for a spin. I was like thats ok, I don't know you, and you don't know me and he insisted. So I took it out. It was an 06 with the 6sp and it had the factory bodykit on it. I was one who thought that the styling was a little polarizing, but after driving it I was like holy sh!t!! this car is awesome!!

Do they still have 2006s on the lots, because I would like to get one?

I don't know where you live but Mazzie Pontiac aout here in Antioch, Ca (about 60 miles east of San Francisco) still has 6 or 7 of them. He originally had a stock of 33 to 35 GTOs. I believe he had one of the larger inventory of GTO's in California.

[Camino LS6]

Amen to that...I agree 100%. Camino, do you still own the Firehawk?

Sadly, no. I sold it a few months ago.

The '98 Hawk is still here- for now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Early 90s? Those cars looked like boxes, for the most part. More like early 2000s.

Oh, and last I checked, your car has a Chevy engine put in an otherwise below average car. WOW!

Why would you want to copy? Well, numerous mags have said that the new 5-Series, with all it's electronic gizmo's, is a worse driver's car than the last-gen (and has lost some of it's BMW heritage by doing so), which is what the G8 "copy's." In addition, the Commodore has been said to be very similar to the previous M5, which again, would be more like a true BMW than the current one due to electronic intervention.

I think everyone knows you hate Holden and wouldn't drive one even if they were the greatest cars in the world. Therefore, your opinion of them is null and void.

It's probably beaten the current 5er because as I said above, the last 5er (the "benchmark" for the Commodore) drives better than the current 5er. But don't tell you-know-who that.

Well when I 1st saw the 1st production version of what Holden would use to create your car was 1993 in Germany. It was the Opel Omega B. Do you recognise it? Allbeit a 4 door, it is the ancestor of your Holden. I do believe this design was 1st penned in either late 89 or early 90, it was such a long time ago it's hard to remember. I do remember at that time Holden was nothing more than rebadged Toyotas, you know like the Holden Nova & Holden Apollo. Here is the exact list of their models and all their rebadges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holden_vehicles

1993

Then I see it again reborn as the 1995 Cadillac Catera.

Then again Opel, aka:GM, gives it to Holden to use.

I guess it's an ok car if you like cars that have a dated design and look like fat Chevy Cavaliers, like I've seen this since the early 90's. But to each their own. But to me this car and it's platform is old, they could have at least tried to make it look different on the outside, but alas it was not to be. Enjoy your Holden, I am enjoying my Pontiac.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why would I want a copy of a last generation BMW, when I can have the current version that is true BMW anytime I like?

To save $30 grand.....

[Oracle of Delphi]

To save $30 grand.....

Nahhh, I have a large trustfund! No worries Oldsmoboi!