Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[Oracle of Delphi]

- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market…for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”

- “We overpriced it.”

- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”

Link: http://news.windingroad.com/videos/bob-lut...iac-gto-failed/

[vt_hokie]

I think it's a sweet looking car! Maybe if a midsize FWD V-6 coupe looked like that, it'd sell. I just don't think too many people are looking for an expensive gas guzzling muscle car, and those who are tend to buy German cars.

[red]

So...basically the GTO program was a short-term yet costly exercise in leveraging global resources and boosting the Pontiac brand's performance credibility. In the words of South Park, "nice."

[Robert Hall]

So...basically the GTO program was a short-term yet costly exercise in leveraging global resources and boosting the Pontiac brand's performance credibility. In the words of South Park, "nice."

Yes, and hopefully the G8 will help continue to build Pontiac's performance credibility...FWD rental cars just don't cut it.

[ponchoman49]

And the terribly named Asian toaster styled G8 might just follow in it's footsteps with very low initial production numbers, terrible V8 gas mileage and 35K plus price tag for that model. Hopefully when production shifts to NA it will have more Pontiac like styling and some character.

[balthazar]

>>- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market…for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”<<

Ehh, styling has not 'progressed' much at all since '04, nor from '00 to '04 for that matter. The design is not dated. I've been seeing a number of them, all carefully parked at the ends of lots or in driveways, meticulously cared for & shined. Seems their owners have a deep appreciation for them regardless.

>>- “We overpriced it.”<<

Agreed.

>>- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”<<

No info to dispute this.

But one thing has been missed: the name GTO set up certain expectations that were not realized stylistically. The style wasn't wrong, but it was wrong for a 'GTO'.

[Windy-57]

>>-

But one thing has been missed: the name GTO set up certain expectations that were not realized stylistically. The style wasn't wrong, but it was wrong for a 'GTO'.

Couldn't agree more. There is nothing wrong with the GTO other than its name. Even many of the media types that had previously bashed it have gotten past its exterior styling and admitted that it's a solid performance car. If GM had named it something else (I know you guys aren't fans of the alpha-numeric thing, but let's say G7) it would have done much better. I'm not saying it would have been flying off lots, but there wouldn't have been the backlash that there was.

The GTO serves as warning to resurrect old names with extreme caution.

[Flybrian]

But one thing has been missed: the name GTO set up certain expectations that were not realized stylistically. The style wasn't wrong, but it was wrong for a 'GTO'.

COPY/PASTE/FIND:'GTO'/REPLACE WITH:'LACROSSE'

[samuel]

Well, he's right about the styling. In fact, I wouldn't even say the car has any "styling" per se. It's just a blob.

[siegen]

But one thing has been missed: the name GTO set up certain expectations that were not realized stylistically. The style wasn't wrong, but it was wrong for a 'GTO'.

I agree, the styling would make a great Toyota Solara! But not so much a GTO.

[Northstar]

I think the GTO failed because it was way different than what your normal Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird customer (more or less the target audience) would expect in a performance coupe. It's basically like a European sports coupe, while they were expecting something more like the Firebird.

In other words, they were expecting something that was all about going fast and nothing about luxury, which is not what they got, and the price tag reflected that. They were expecting a go-fast for cheap car and they got a go-fast with luxury car and a price tag more than they want to pay. Basically, they were expecting a Mustang fighter and got something more along the lines of a big 3-Series. And, Pontiac didn't seem to market it as any sort of European-like sports coupe, but rather a Firebird replacement (though there was not much marketing at all).

As a result of this, the type of customer that would buy a car like the GTO is not one that would normally go to a Pontiac showroom, and therefore with the lack of marketing the type of customer that would buy a GTO did not know about it. When I got my GTO hardly anyone knew what the hell it was, that's a sign of bad marketing.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I think the GTO failed because it was way different than what your normal Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird customer (more or less the target audience) would expect in a performance coupe. It's basically like a European sports coupe, while they were expecting something more like the Firebird.

In other words, they were expecting something that was all about going fast and nothing about luxury, which is not what they got, and the price tag reflected that. They were expecting a go-fast for cheap car and they got a go-fast with luxury car and a price tag more than they want to pay. Basically, they were expecting a Mustang fighter and got something more along the lines of a big 3-Series. And, Pontiac didn't seem to market it as any sort of European-like sports coupe, but rather a Firebird replacement (though there was not much marketing at all).

As a result of this, the type of customer that would buy a car like the GTO is not one that would normally go to a Pontiac showroom, and therefore with the lack of marketing the type of customer that would buy a GTO did not know about it. When I got my GTO hardly anyone knew what the hell it was, that's a sign of bad marketing.

Everytime I take someone for a ride in my car, their response is the same. They all say "I want one!" Even my dad and brother who always made fun of it as being a Cavalier on steroids, say now that they have seen one up close they actually like it.

And really, how big did everyone think the market for a $32,000 400hp V8 coupe would be? The only reason the GTO appears to be a failure(which I don't beleive it is), is because it didn't have a $25000 300hp V6 model or a sedan to go with it. What are we comparing it to to consider it a failure? Mustang- the GT is $7,000 cheaper. Charger- it's a sedan, and you can get it with a V6 for $10,000 cheaper. G35- also has a sedan version. How many Camaro SS, and Trans Ams did GM sell?

Edited April 4, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[MGZ06]

“We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales…it turned out that was completely wrong.”

Jeez, Not selling it here in Canada was the biggest mistake of them all.

[balthazar]

>>"...the styling would make a great Toyota Solara!"<<

Except for one thing- the typical toyota buyer is not used to that much style & substance.

[Northstar]

Everytime I take someone for a ride in my car, their response is the same. They all say "I want one!" Even my dad and brother who always made fun of it as being a Cavalier on steroids, say now that they have seen one up close they actually like it.

And really, how big did everyone think the market for a $32,000 400hp V8 coupe would be? The only reason the GTO appears to be a failure(which I don't beleive it is), is because it didn't have a $25000 300hp V6 model or a sedan to go with it. What are we comparing it to to consider it a failure? Mustang- the GT is $7,000 cheaper. Charger- it's a sedan, and you can get it with a V6 for $10,000 cheaper. G35- also has a sedan version. How many Camaro SS, and Trans Ams did GM sell?

Exactly. I read somewhere that the GTO actually sold better than the Trans Am. People don't realize that the Z/28 was nowhere close to $33k and the Mustang GT isn't either.

[Camino LS6]

Same old story, those who don't like the GTO, don't know the GTO.

Let's not forget that every GTO was a bonus sale on an existing product - GM made money on the car.

Also GTO and the Camaro/Firebird twins for that matter were NOT gas-guzzlers! They were rated at 28 and 29 mpg on the highway. (down a mile or two per gallon on the 6.0 cars).

All of this in a car that outpowers an M3 at a considerable discount. I don't think they priced it wrong, just marketed it poorly. I consider my GTO to have been well worth every penny, and I would buy another without reservation.

[Oracle of Delphi]

What are we comparing it to to consider it a failure?

Bob Lutz told you what made it a failure. Let me restate the reasons it in case you misssed them!

>>- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”<<

>>- “We overpriced it.”<<

>>- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales, it turned out that was completely wrong.”<<

Bob is right when he said this car was past its best buy date, good Lord this car was old looking when it got here, its basic design was an Opel Omega from the early 90's. Most people here remember that body style as the Cadillac Catera, allbeit a four door, but the basic platform was the same.

Most of my friends thought the GTO was a "Fat Chevy Cavalier" most non-GM people in North America could not tell the difference between the GTO and Cavalier. Shameful.

This car was doomed from the time Lutz first proposed the idea.

Has Lutz learned from this, not at all. When you fail to learn from History's lessons, you're bound to repeat them, hence the G8!

Edited April 9, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[SuperSport623]

would any of you rather we not have gotten the car here at all? if so? i disagree with you completley.. id rather have a 400HP RWD GTO with "bland" styling (that i happen to really like) then to have nothing at all

[FAPTurbo]

Jeez, Not selling it here in Canada was the biggest mistake of them all.

+100000000000000000000000000000

[Camino LS6]

I drove my GTO to a get-together last night, and watched as a Canadian fell in love with it. :AH-HA_wink:

I wasn't sure he would ever get out of the driver's seat!

[Cory Wolfe]

Bob Lutz told you what made it a failure. Let me restate the reasons it in case you misssed them!

>>- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”<<

>>- “We overpriced it.”<<

>>- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales, it turned out that was completely wrong.”<<

Bob is right when he said this car was past its best buy date, good Lord this car was old looking when it got here, its basic design was an Opel Omega from the early 90's. Most people here remember that body style as the Cadillac Catera, allbeit a four door, but the basic platform was the same.

Most of my friends thought the GTO was a "Fat Chevy Cavalier" most non-GM people in North America could not tell the difference between the GTO and Cavalier. Shameful.

This car was doomed from the time Lutz first proposed the idea.

Has Lutz learned from this, not at all. When you fail to learn from History's lessons, you're bound to repeat them, hence the G8!

Oh cry me a river.

[Northstar]

Bob Lutz told you what made it a failure. Let me restate the reasons it in case you misssed them!

>>- “it was arguably past its best-buy date in terms of styling. When we brought it in, that basic styling configuration in the market for close to seven or eight years. If you bring in a car, it should be in the beginning of its design cycle.”<<

Doesn't mean it wasn't a good-looking car.

>>- “We overpriced it.”<<

Possibly, but ask the people that bought them if they think they're worth every penny of the price.

>>- “We maldistributed it. We based distribution on historic Pontiac sales, it turned out that was completely wrong.”<<

Can't argue with that, they're huge in California.

Most of my friends thought the GTO was a "Fat Chevy Cavalier" most non-GM people in North America could not tell the difference between the GTO and Cavalier. Shameful.

It's funny that you say most non-GM people can't tell the difference between a GTO and a Cavalier but it's best market is one of GM's worst. Someting doesn't work there.

This car was doomed from the time Lutz first proposed the idea.

The GTO sold better than the cheaper Trans Am...

Has Lutz learned from this, not at all. When you fail to learn from History's lessons, you're bound to repeat them, hence the G8!

I think you should wait until we see what the G8 does. Then you might have to eat some crow.

[ocnblu]

Well, some key things have been changed for the better with the G8. It's a sedan (still needs a coupe model in addition), it's available with the V6, and it will be priced lower. But low production capacity and the same design failings (anonymous, tepid, generic with a sparse sprinkling of Pontiac DNA) make it seem like another last-minute, half hearted attempt, which, to me, is a crime against the brand.

The crow is a pretty small bird, I'll take a drumstick if I'm wrong about this.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ocnblu

[hyperv6]

The plain facts that hurt the car were as follows.

The MUSTANG at a much lower price.

Styling while not bad was old and not fresh to the eyes in the NA market.

Dealer mark up! If the stickers were at $33k and the cars were sold at 28K with dealers coming off stickers it may have had a chance. But dealers marking up the car to over $40k and not coming off price when the Mustange was still being sold for less sealed the deal.

I blame the Mustang as a whole for the problems than anything else. If the new Stang had not arrived whne it did it may have had a chance without the dealer mark up. It was a 30K car not a 40K car.

[SuperSport623]

the mustang was never supposed to be the GTO's real competitor. The GTO didnt have a V6, why? cause correct me if im wrong, the Manaro it was based on was V8 only. it was cheaper to keep it that way then to re engineer a stop gap car for a V6. GM was Building the Manaro anyway, so selling the GTO here was just a bonus on top of that. why fight over why it was a failure? i see GTO's EVERYWHERE around here... its a head turner, enthusiasts who have modified them within an inch of their lives love them, and women who'll never turn a wrench love them. They Gave pontiac some image, and the good of having the car outweighed the bad of resurecting the name. i would LOVE to have a GTO someday if i can buy one

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, some key things have been changed for the better with the G8. It's a sedan (still needs a coupe model in addition), it's available with the V6, and it will be priced lower. But low production capacity and the same design failings (anonymous, tepid, generic with a sparse sprinkling of Pontiac DNA) make it seem like another last-minute, half hearted attempt, which, to me, is a crime against the brand.

The crow is a pretty small bird, I'll take a drumstick if I'm wrong about this.

You can cry me a river as well.

Coming from a Pontiac fan, the G8 is far from a crime to the brand, and neither was the GTO. The real crimes against the brands are the G5, Torrent, Montana, Aztek, LeMans, etc. There have been plenty of Pontiacs that were more "anonymous" than the G8 and I'm not talking about the ones I just mentioned. Pontiacs throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s could have all easily passed for another American car, styling wise. The one's continuing to beat a dead horse, like yourself and PCS, are simply complaining about the fact that it's not retro, not American, not over styled, and not a &#036;h&#33;ty W-body Grand Prix. Oops, did I just say that?

[SuperSport623]

Exactly, we dont complain about the EXCITMENT division getting minivans, crossovers, FWD EVERYTHING but the GTO isnt Pontiac enough? Id sure as hell have a Holden rebadge then a Chevy rebadge! IMO Just cause it isnt retro styled, doesnt mean it isnt a gto...

if anything.. we need MORE cars like the GTO.... im excited for the G8.... why are more people complianing about a 360hp 6speed RWD Sedan, then the minivan, crossover, cobalt rebadge, TOYOTA REBADGE? and the countless past UNexciting vehicles pontiac has given us?

Thank you lutz, for 3 years of GTO is much better then no goat at all!

[Flybrian]

The GTO was overpriced at the dealership. This was rampant and egregious; $3,999 for racing stripes. Yeesh.

[Camino LS6]

The GTO was overpriced at the dealership. This was rampant and egregious; $3,999 for racing stripes. Yeesh.

This was very true, the dealers really put on their idiot suits when it came to the GTO.

Then it came back to bite them in the ass, I hope they remember that.

[balthazar]

blackviper8891; >>"Pontiacs throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s.... could have all easily passed for another American car, styling wise."<<Thru the entire '60s and well into the '70s, no they could not. There was strong brand DNA, and that carried (tho less strongly) into the late '70s and thru the '80s, too. You're just wrong on this count.

>>"The one's continuing to beat a dead horse, like yourself and PCS, are simply complaining about the fact that it's not retro, not American, not over styled..."<<

No one putting down the G8 on initial pics has specifically demanded 'retro', but in contrast a number (ocnblu & myself for 2) HAVE asked for a more family resemblence... more Pontiac flair and heritage.... but not straight-cut retro. If you do not know the '60s & '70s Pontiacs first-hand, you are just not going to know what we're talking about here. That generation was above the pedestrian and the commonplace- that has been missing for a lo-oong time. It wasn't there in Pontiacs you are a fan of, BV.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hey Blackviper hows that POS Grand AM lawn ornament of yours? Talk about Cry Me A River, I can't tell you how many times you WHINED about that car! All that Whine and no Cheese!

[hyperv6]

Like I have asked before to all that complained that the GTO did not look like a GTO, So what does a GTO look like.

And don't give me a buch of retro styling cue's. Heavy retro is a crutch for lack of originality of a good new design.

Thank God they did not cry retro in 1964 or we would have had wide chrome bands down both sides of the hood.

If the GTO was avaible at the dealer in 2005 for 28K I would have considered one. I just looked at a new 2006 the other day for 28K and thought about it but would now rather wait for the Camaro vs buying a car no longer in production. Either way I will never pay over sticker for anycar!

I have no interest in buying a car that is on it's way out or already gone.

[Cory Wolfe]

blackviper8891; >>"Pontiacs throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s.... could have all easily passed for another American car, styling wise."<<Thru the entire '60s and well into the '70s, no they could not. There was strong brand DNA, and that carried (tho less strongly) into the late '70s and thru the '80s, too. You're just wrong on this count.

>>"The one's continuing to beat a dead horse, like yourself and PCS, are simply complaining about the fact that it's not retro, not American, not over styled..."<<

No one putting down the G8 on initial pics has specifically demanded 'retro', but in contrast a number (ocnblu & myself for 2) HAVE asked for a more family resemblence... more Pontiac flair and heritage.... but not straight-cut retro. If you do not know the '60s & '70s Pontiacs first-hand, you are just not going to know what we're talking about here. That generation was above the pedestrian and the commonplace- that has been missing for a lo-oong time. It wasn't there in Pontiacs you are a fan of, BV.

You missed my point, entirely. Yes, there was strong brand DNA, but it was mostly in the minor details that added to the base styling; certain lines, taillight styles, fascia integration, etc. Someone of your expertise of the these vehicles will always be aware of this like with how I still feel the G8 chop you did a while back looked nothing like an Acura. However, to the non-car enthusiast public, I could do the same thing with a Pontiac of the any period, fit it grill similar to another make and I bet that those people wouldn't know. That is my point. I've seen many Pontiacs from the 60s and 70s in person and every single one in pictures, atleast, so I'm not exactly some outsider make asinine comments.

Also, you have no idea what Pontiac's I am a fan of. My fanaticism for Pontiac goes far beyond just the 90's, thank you very much.

I mentioned more than just retro. I stand by what I said on that count. Besides, if you're asking for Pontiac flair and heritage from those decades, then my arguments since the G8 was first shown have suddenly been agreed upon by yourself. I've only said that it's styling fits in well with current and/or recent Pontiacs, which you say lack what you want in the first place. Hmm...

Hey Blackviper hows that POS Grand AM lawn ornament of yours? Talk about Cry Me A River, I can't tell you how many times you WHINED about that car! All that Whine and no Cheese!

Haha... It's sitting there like the POS car that it is. I whine because it is a POS with a POS engine. What do you expect me to do? Praise it's ability to sit there and kill grass?

[ocnblu]

Viper, you'd better watch yourself. There are big boys at play here. Maybe you should study more before you spout your mouth off. You have bitten the hand that feeds. If you only knew.

[Cory Wolfe]

Viper, you'd better watch yourself. There are big boys at play here. Maybe you should study more before you spout your mouth off. You have bitten the hand that feeds. If you only knew.

Haha... I better watch myself? I'm just trying to make a case for a car that rightfully deserves to be a Pontiac, despite you guys' unnecessary bitching. Sorry, Blu... I'm just as much a Pontiac fan as anyone else here, so bitch to someone else. Not me.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Haha... I better watch myself? I'm just trying to make a case for a car that rightfully deserves to be a Pontiac, despite you guys' unnecessary bitching. Sorry, Blu... I'm just as much a Pontiac fan as anyone else here, so bitch to someone else. Not me.

It's not a Pontiac it's a Holden!

[ocnblu]

What's under the skin is wonderful and fully deserving to be a modern Pontiac (just like the GTO)... but the wrapper, THE most important part of a supposed "flagship", is dearly lacking essential elements... like excitement, distinctiveness and brand identity. Sorry bud.

[Cory Wolfe]

It's not a Pontiac it's a Holden!

Heh... True, but a great car is a great car, whether it's an actual Pontiac or not. Regardless of you guys' opinions, it's styling is current and fits in well with recent Pontiacs.

Edited April 9, 2007 by blackviper8891

[ocnblu]

Its styling is vintage Australian... fine for them, great even. But it is removed from what is being done in this country now. That roofline could be off any number of vehicles... from a first-gen J-body to a last-gen 5 Series... it is generic. The horizontal bodylines... lack character. The blocky deck and severe, rectangular taillamps... no identity. The taillamps look Pep Boys. I love ribbed, horizontal taillamps on a Pontiac... but I also love the teardrops on a Solstice and G6 coupe.

You have posted some interesting sketches of Pontiacs. I don't doubt you're a fan and you have good ideas. But think to yourself... would YOU have designed a Pontiac this dull? I'd like to think you wouldn't... at least I haven't seen anything you've done that's as bland as the G8. I am not asking for geegaws or blatant retro.... I am asking for the flagship of the brand to be recognizable and exuberant and hot looking. Take off the hood, bumper cover and the wheels of the G8 Concept, and what have you got? Invisibility. Not what Pontiac needs right now to regain cache.

Edited April 9, 2007 by ocnblu

[gm4life]

I liked the GTO and it had some excellent merits it sold on.

[ocnblu]

I will give props where they're due. GTO had some awesome hardware.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It's not a Pontiac it's a Holden!

Ha.... Is that why I love it so much more than my 98 Grand Prix GTP? Must be. Is that why it has the best interior of any GM car I've been in? Must be. Not only do I find all different kinds of people staring and pointing at it (younger-older) but other people that drive GTOs wave everytime they see my car. They must also love their GTO as much as I do. Where was the public uproar when GM gave Pontiac the Montana, the Torrent, the G5, etc? IMO The GTO is the BEST Pontiac in 30 years. Personally, when the time comes, I will have a very hard time replacing my GTO. Why is there so much negativity for the GTO, when none of Pontiacs other cars even come close, including the Solstice GXP? GM finally makes a truly amazing car, and GM's own fans kill it.

[ocnblu]

I can speak for myself only... those vehicles were business-as-usual. The G8 is an attempt to revive the brand from the top down... the hardware is exceptional... but the look is not there. The look is the hook, and it just is not there.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ha.... Is that why I love it so much more than my 98 Grand Prix GTP? Must be. Is that why it has the best interior of any GM car I've been in? Must be. Not only do I find all different kinds of people staring and pointing at it (younger-older) but other people that drive GTOs wave everytime they see my car. They must also love their GTO as much as I do. Where was the public uproar when GM gave Pontiac the Montana, the Torrent, the G5, etc? IMO The GTO is the BEST Pontiac in 30 years. Personally, when the time comes, I will have a very hard time replacing my GTO. Why is there so much negativity for the GTO, when none of Pontiacs other cars even come close, including the Solstice GXP? GM finally makes a truly amazing car, and GM's own fans kill it.

Look closely, they are most likely pointing and laughing!

[balthazar]

ocnblu- I agree with everything you've written above 1000%.

BV- I'm still not asking for outright retro by referencing '60s Pontiacs, I'm asking for the persona and the flair and the individuality & the DNA, not necessarily a tangible design cue. Ocnblu hits the nail dead-on- this is a very good car hardware-wise, but take off the split grille and it can be a dozen other brand's sport sedan. For a 'revival' model- it ain't.

Answer yourself this: is this the BEST flagship Pontiac sports sedan it could be?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Look closely, they are most likely pointing and laughing!

Nah, your getting the GTO confused with the 04+ Grand Prix

[Cory Wolfe]

You have posted some interesting sketches of Pontiacs. I don't doubt you're a fan and you have good ideas. But think to yourself... would YOU have designed a Pontiac this dull? I'd like to think you wouldn't... at least I haven't seen anything you've done that's as bland as the G8. I am not asking for geegaws or blatant retro.... I am asking for the flagship of the brand to be recognizable and exuberant and hot looking. Take off the hood, bumper cover and the wheels of the G8 Concept, and what have you got? Invisibility. Not what Pontiac needs right now to regain cache.

Would I design something like it? Yes and no. I understand where you are coming from. However, I don't find it to be dull. It's understated yet chiseled and stealthy. Could it have been more unique? Yes, by all means, but at the same time, I think it's more than just a bland, invisible anonymous car. As a Pontiac, no, it's not perfect by any means and the Pontiacs I design are generally more wild. Stylistically, in its own right, it's better than any other rebadge and many of the "unique" cars like the current Grand Prix and G6, IMO. With that said, I loved the GTO and I love the G8, regardless of being "plain" or whatnot.

Nah, your getting the GTO confused with the 04+ Grand Prix

[Oracle of Delphi]

Nah, your getting the GTO confused with the 04+ Grand Prix

No, you're getting the GTO confused with the Monaro! That so called Pontiac, is not a Pontiac at all.

[Northstar]

The GTO and G8 may not be the most in-your-face cars, but name me one Pontiac from the last 30 years that looks better than either of them (besides the Solstice). And, on top of that, at least the rebadges are of damn good cars. Would you rather have a Cobalt-based G5? How about the Montana? Maybe you'd like a Equin, err, Torrent? How about the apparently stylish-because-it's-different Grand Prix (with it's 2 foot overhangs)? Maybe the old GA with more ribs than a cow was more your flavor? Or, what about that oh-so-bold and in-your-face Aztek? Now that was a looker.

The fact is that the GTO and G8 are the best, most stylish Pontiacs of the last 30 years (besides Solstice, and they're definitely better vehicles than the Solstice, just not more stylish).

So, let's all complain when GM makes good cars that have good styling, then we can go buy the old Pontiacs with an infinite amount of ribs, overhangs as long as the rest of the car, and in your-face-looks that made the Aztek the icon of ugliness. Sounds like a plan to me, a plan that adds up to 6.

[Northstar]

No, you're getting the GTO confused with the Monaro! That so called Pontiac, is not a Pontiac at all.

May not be a Pontiac, but it's better at being a Pontiac than any other vehicle (again, save the Solstice), than any other "Pontiac" right now. Same goes for G8.

So, let's see, going by "real" Pontiacs, our equation equals:

FWD/AWD only, I4 or V6 power, 2 foot overhangs, cartoonish styling, and "please don't force me to sit in there!" interiors, and basically no manual transmissions.

On the other hand, our "Holdens" have/had: RWD, V8 or V6 power, manual transmissions (if you want), sleek, tasteful lines, and great interiors.

Now, let me think about what Pontiac is supposed to be... a performance brand, no? Now, let's think about what performance means... well, if we look at BMW (and we all want Pontiac to be a "cheap" BMW, right?), they have: RWD/AWD, V8 or V6 power (or V10), manual transmission offerings, sleek, tasteful lines, and high quality interiors.

Now, let's see what BMW doesn't have: I4 power, FWD, cartoonish styling with 2 foot overhangs.

I think the "Holdens" fit the description of "BMW" more than the "Pontiacs."

The fact is the Holdens are more like Pontiacs than the "Pontiacs" so everyone should quit their bitching about them and realize that the "Pontiacs" suck and the "Holdens" are among the best cars GM makes.