More Alpha bits n' pieces

[Flybrian]

GM’s Next RWD Platform: Alpha
Link to Original Article @ Winding Road March 22nd, 2007 12:49 PM

GM is set to debut a new small-to-medium-size vehicle platform, called Alpha, according to WINDING ROAD’s sources. The new vehicle platform will incorporate pieces of Kappa (Pontiac Solstice) and Zeta (Pontiac G8), creating a rear-wheel drive architecture that will play a large part in the future of Pontiac and Cadillac.

Sources say that Pontiac’s next G6 is set to go rear-wheel drive and will be the first to use the platform. GM’s Resident Car Czar, Bob Lutz, has said in public and private that he’d like to position the Pontiac brand as the company’s American answer to BMW, but with a more expressive and sexy design language. Along with this goal would be to migrate the entire platform to rear-wheel drive. This translates into less trucks and SUVs and more sport sedans, coupes, and sporty crossovers. We’ll have more news about which products are “shifting” away from Pontiac in the coming weeks.

Cadillac, which established itself as a born-again brand with the introduction of the CTS (Sigma platform, also RWD), will use Alpha as well. However, this won’t change the company’s plans for its CTS — the new car rides on an improved but similar version of the Sigma platform. Rather, Cadillac will create a new, smaller car on the Alpha platform. In Europe, this car will be the replacement for the BLS (currently built on the same FWD Epsilon platform as the Saab 9-3). But will it come to America?

At this stage, signs point to no (thankfully, in our opinion). Lutz does not appear to be eager to create smaller Cadillacs. There are some within the company who consider not bringing the Alpha Cadillac to the U.S. to be a mistake. These are unlikely to be the kind of people who have a grasp on creating the right vehicles for the right brands, in our opinion. The CTS should be the entry point, even if it starts in the low 30s.

A small/medium RWD Pontiac sounds about right. A small/medium Cadillac, positioned below the CTS? Not so much.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the CTS should move up to 5-series territory in price with the new model and the new BTS should slot in beneath it so we can stop having stupid comparison tests between the 3-series and CTS.

[VenSeattle]

I feel similar but different.

Make the next-gen CTS on the Alpha platform while evolving the 2008 CTS formula into the eventual STS/DTS replacement. CTS found its market, and should continue to cater to that market (grabbing potential entry-luxury import buyers.) Those currently owning a CTS should trade up to the next best model, not expect the CTS to grow with them.

ATS & BTS are too bottom-basement and sound forced. I think the C-series should be Cadillac's global entry-level model.

[ocnblu]

I am way more excited about this news as it relates to Pontiac... great, hopeful news for Pontiac (I am imagining an Alpha Pontiac coupe with 3.6L DI and forced induction as a strictly modern GTO)... but I think CTS should remain the entry-level Cadillac and not grow in size. Edited March 24, 2007 by ocnblu

[Carguy]

I have liked the CTS as a larger then the competition base Caddy all along but if it is to be a 5 series competitor it needs a opt V8! Then they could drop the STS or move it up market as a V8 only model with a longer weelbase to replace both todays STS and the DTS. Then use the upcomeing premium Cadillac sedan with an opt V12 as the top model. STS is a name that is well known and now the oldest in the Cadillac stable so KEEP IT around as the middel Cadillac model with the CTS as the base car. Then let PONTIAC have the lower cost and smaller BMW 3 series competitor!

[Oracle of Delphi]

It is a RWD stretched Kappa platform. :AH-HA_wink:

[loki]

would alpha be like zeta so it's wheelbase and such could vary?

300hp G6 rwd sounds good

[Drew Dowdell]

I like how there isn't an optional V8 in the CTS all of the sudden.....

[DetroitNut90]

Resident Car Czar, Bob Lutz, has said in public and private that he’d like to position the Pontiac brand as the company’s American answer to BMW, but with a more expressive and sexy design language.

Well, IMO, that wouldn't be too hard to do. With the exception of the 3-Series and X5, they all have a cold aura to them.

A small RWD Pontiac Alpha with an HF V6 and 6-speed manual sounds awesome, I'd totally buy one if Alpha gets greenlighted.

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM's Next RWD Platform: Alpha

Link: http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmar...platform-alpha/

With that being said, I will be leaving my nice little Kappa plant soon and going down under for a while, so don't worry if you don't see me around for a while. You may be able to catch me on MSN Messenger now and then, for those that have added me that is.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

I feel similar but different.

Make the next-gen CTS on the Alpha platform while evolving the 2008 CTS formula into the eventual STS/DTS replacement. CTS found its market, and should continue to cater to that market (grabbing potential entry-luxury import buyers.) Those currently owning a CTS should trade up to the next best model, not expect the CTS to grow with them.

ATS & BTS are too bottom-basement and sound forced. I think the C-series should be Cadillac's global entry-level model.

I think the new CTS has, more or less, moved up to the next level. I think it could be rather risky to make the CTS a rather compact vehicle when it has done so well at it's current size.

I am way more excited about this news as it relates to Pontiac... great, hopeful news for Pontiac (I am imagining an Alpha Pontiac coupe with 3.6L DI and forced induction as a strictly modern GTO)... but I think CTS should remain the entry-level Cadillac and not grow in size.

The CTS would not need to grow in size for there to be significant room underneath it for an Alpha car. It's as big as or bigger than the 5-Series, and an Alpha sedan would be like the 3-Series.

It is a RWD stretched Kappa platform. :AH-HA_wink:

We already know that Kappa can't be stretched like that... it's basically making a new platform if you start with Kappa and stretch it because of all the changes that have to be made... and even then it's not perfect, so they might as well just make an all-new platform.

would alpha be like zeta so it's wheelbase and such could vary?

300hp G6 rwd sounds good

I don't know, but I would hope so. It would be silly to make a platform from scratch that can't be made into different lengths.

[Cory Wolfe]

RWD vehicle smaller than the CTS for the US = Good idea. I can understand not bringing the current BLS here... but not one on this supposed Alpha platform. Regardless of what price it would come in at, Cadillac needs something smaller than the CTS.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the new CTS has, more or less, moved up to the next level. I think it could be rather risky to make the CTS a rather compact vehicle when it has done so well at it's current size.

The CTS would not need to grow in size for there to be significant room underneath it for an Alpha car. It's as big as or bigger than the 5-Series, and an Alpha sedan would be like the 3-Series.

We already know that Kappa can't be stretched like that... it's basically making a new platform if you start with Kappa and stretch it because of all the changes that have to be made... and even then it's not perfect, so they might as well just make an all-new platform.

I don't know, but I would hope so. It would be silly to make a platform from scratch that can't be made into different lengths.

I agree. The current CTS is within 1/10th of an inch of the 5-series. Given the engine choices that are likely to be available <3.6, 3.6DI, 7.0, with a possible bored out 3.6 in there somewhere> it lines up perfectly with the 5-series....especially with the new interior.

[Oracle of Delphi]

We already know that Kappa can't be stretched like that... it's basically making a new platform if you start with Kappa and stretch it because of all the changes that have to be made... and even then it's not perfect, so they might as well just make an all-new platform.

There you're just plain wrong, this new platform is majority Kappa, with a minority of Zeta thrown in to fill in the gaps where needed. To me it's a Kappa since the majority of the platform is Kappa. But OK Northstar you know more than me.

See you in OZ! Think Holden Torana.

http://www.spaninh.autoblog.com/2007/03/22...latform-coming/

[Northstar]

There you're just plain wrong, this new platform is majority Kappa, with a minority of Zeta thrown in to fill in the gaps where needed. To me it's a Kappa since the majority of the platform is Kappa. But OK Northstar you know more than me.

See you in OZ! Think Holden Torana.

I don't think anyone knows at this point whether it's majority Kappa, majority Zeta, or majority brand new.

The Nomad and Curve concepts demonstrated that Kappa is not flexible enough to stretch and make into a long wheelbase. It was going to cost $250 million to make a stretched Kappa (the same amount that it took to make Kappa in the first place). Kappa has too many limitations such as the central tunnel that runs the length of the car, making it impossible to have any configuration but 2+2 (no 5 passenger cars).

I don't know what Alpha consists of, but I'm fairly certain that it can be ruled out that it's not majority Kappa.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't know what Alpha consists of, but I'm fairly certain that it can be ruled out that it's not majority Kappa.

I read your statement to two of our engineers here at the Wilmington Assembly plant over the phone since I needed to call them about another issue, they are still smiling, they got a real kick out of that!

Well you're only 19 (Happy Birthday by the way), you'd be surprised what some of our older engineers can do, when they have the experience and the knowledge to do as you say, the impossible. Have a great day!

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Satty]

Northstar's info is what we got from AH-HA and other insiders around the time the Solstice came out.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Northstar's info is what we got from AH-HA and other insiders around the time the Solstice came out.

That was how many years ago? All perceptions are subject to change, that is a plain simple fact of life.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

I read your statement to two of our engineers here at the Wilmington Assembly plant over the phone since I needed to call them about another issue, they are still smiling, they got a real kick out of that!

Well you're only 19 (Happy Birthday by the way), you'd be surprised what some of our older engineers can do, when they have the experience and the knowledge to do as you say, the impossible. Have a great day!

Are they manufacturing engineers who work at Wilmington? If so, how do they know what's going on in Australia? No offense, but if they are manufacturing engineers, they don't know a thing about what's going on in AU.

I would like to know how, considering Alpha is still years away, we already know what bits and pieces it consists of; and, if it's just a modified Kappa with a few Zeta pieces, why it is still a few years off.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Are they manufacturing engineers who work at Wilmington? If so, how do they know what's going on in Australia? No offense, but if they are manufacturing engineers, they don't know a thing about what's going on in AU.

I would like to know how, considering Alpha is still years away, we already know what bits and pieces it consists of; and, if it's just a modified Kappa with a few Zeta pieces, why it is still a few years off.

You do know what cars the Wilmington Assembly plant makes don't you? If you think Wilmington's engineers are not involved, then you truely don't understand how GM functions. Enough said by me on this subject anyway, all will become clear soon enough anyway.

[Northstar]

You do know what cars the Wilmington Assembly plant makes don't you? If you think Wilmington's engineers are not involved, then you truely don't understand how GM functions. Enough said by me on this subject anyway, all will become clear soon enough anyway.

Yeah, Wilmington makes the Kappa cars. If they're manufacturing engineers then they don't really know much about Alpha, because they're not working on it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah, Wilmington makes the Kappa cars. If they're manufacturing engineers then they don't really know much about Alpha, because they're not working on it.

My last statement stands.

[Northstar]

My last statement stands.

So you're saying they've already decided where to build it, already solidified the platform, already scheduled tooling/manufacturing processes (which is how the manufacturing engineers would know)... basically the whole platform is already completed when it's barely even penciled in?

[CSpec]

Alpha is many years away yet, remember. Everything can still change.

[AAS]

Who ever said they were MANUFACTURING engineers?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Who ever said they were MANUFACTURING engineers?

[thegriffon]

There you're just plain wrong, this new platform is majority Kappa, with a minority of Zeta thrown in to fill in the gaps where needed. To me it's a Kappa since the majority of the platform is Kappa. But OK Northstar you know more than me.

See you in OZ! Think Holden Torana.

http://www.spaninh.autoblog.com/2007/03/22...latform-coming/

Perhaps you have a different understanding of "Kappa" than has been underestood by outsiders. The Torana concept was widely reported to be based on Kappa, yet the GM Holden engineers who designed it said quite explicitly that it wasn't (as the lead engineer explained to me directly). It was the same kind of architecture as Kappa and Premium Sports Car (Corvette/XLR), but scaled up for the midsize Torana concept, and without any of the extra work needed for a functional and cost-effective production car.

[91z4me]

Perhaps you have a different understanding of "Kappa" than has been underestood by outsiders. The Torana concept was widely reported to be based on Kappa, yet the GM Holden engineers who designed it said quite explicitly that it wasn't (as the lead engineer explained to me directly). It was the same kind of architecture as Kappa and Premium Sports Car (Corvette/XLR), but scaled up for the midsize Torana concept, and without any of the extra work needed for a functional and cost-effective production car.

Also I believe the Torana concept didn't use the full length hydroformed frame rails, which is a hallmark of Kappa and the Y-body. Essentially, from what was released, it was a one off that could be the basis for starting a new platform utilizing Kappa suspension and a few pieces. But overall it was all new.

Also the Kappa that Custom-S may be talking about may not be the Kappa we all know and love as it is now but may be the revamped Kappa, or Kappa II.

But right now this is just an internet pissing match so I will digress and let it return back to that.

[FAPTurbo]

This is all well and good... but I want to see an FWD platform that will create nearly as much excitement (both in press, and performance) as the RWD platforms.

Scary I say this, because I'm an RWD mafia member...

[Dragon]

this is great to hear...I love the G8, but its a little big for what I need, so a smaller alpha would be great.

good to see some confirmation from non-WR sources too since after the blue devil debacle, I don't trust a word they type

[Robert Hall]

This thread is hilarious...who cares what Alpha is made of--bits of Zeta, Kappa, XYZ, BS, whatever. What is important for car enthusiasts is the possibility that GM may have a compact RWD platform in the future.