JAPAN

[regfootball]

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes I have.

[regfootball]

it appears to be an old article, very old, but common themes and accusations still get tossed about today.

i'm still only part way into it. Certainly doesn't sound entirely like hogwash.

[Oracle of Delphi]

There is a deep resentment thoughout the world aimed against the United States. Part of this is because we are the Top Dog in the world in so many ways. In Japan's case they lost face in the defeat of their armed forces by the United States in World War II, and by the having to accept US aid after the war to even survive on a daily basis.

I agree with the article in general, but in my mind we are letting this happen to ourselves because we as Americans don't want to be seen in the world, as bad guys.

Someday America will wake up and realize the world is not a safe place and other countries are out to do it harm not only Militarilly, but Economically as well, be it Japan's agressive trade policies or 30 million illegal aliens within our own borders.

If I were president of the USA I could fix these things in about a month, by doing to the Japanese what they are doing to us by imposing the same trade policies on them as they impose on us and by securing our borders and deporting all illegals no matter where they are from and deploying the military along our southern border to make sure that border stays secure.

Good thing I work for GM instead, huh?

Edited March 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[lakefire]

Honestly; I'm surprised everyone on this board is so anti-trade (anti-Japan). It really sickens me.

[avant1963]

Anti-free trade. PRO FAIR-TRADE.

[regfootball]

Anti-free trade. PRO FAIR-TRADE.

what he said

[Hudson]

And this gets reposted every few months...for the past few YEARS. It's old and mostly inaccurate data.

[Camino LS6]

Anti-free trade. PRO FAIR-TRADE.

Requote for truth.

[FAPTurbo]

Honestly; I'm surprised everyone on this board is so anti-trade (anti-Japan). It really sickens me.

There's others here that share your opinion. But I think we're a little more silent. :AH-HA_wink:

[CARBIZ]

Has anyone refuted the author's examples? The only thing I view as outdated about this article is that now American and Canadian companies are tripping over each other to jump into bed with Chinese companies and history repeats itself all over again.

Will we ever learn?

We have free trade with the EU and even Mexico, but not Japan or China. When Japan's economy was tiny, we felt all pleased with ourselves because we were helping rebuild their economy. Just because Japan's banking sector seems bogged down for the past decade (zero percent loans to business anyone?) doesn't mean that Japan Inc. isn't up to something.

They are not a transparent society. There are no whistle blowers at every stock holders meeting, ready to rat out the cartels, etc. Yes, this is old news, but no less valid than it was 20 years ago.

[lakefire]

Free trade helps us as Americans; not hurt us. Better to help all millions of Americans rather than help just a few thousand because of special interests.

Being "fair trade" or "protectionist" or whatever you call it is exactly the same as being anti-competition. Anti-competition is what Communism, Socialism, and Dictatorships base their government on. A government that works based on Free Market Capatilism will be the most effective.

[Snate]

Free trade helps us as Americans; not hurt us. Better to help all millions of Americans rather than help just a few thousand because of special interests.

True although you would be hard pressed to really claim we have "free trade" with Japan.

[Cory Wolfe]

Free trade helps us as Americans; not hurt us. Better to help all millions of Americans rather than help just a few thousand because of special interests.

Being "fair trade" or "protectionist" or whatever you call it is exactly the same as being anti-competition. Anti-competition is what Communism, Socialism, and Dictatorships base their government on. A government that works based on Free Market Capatilism will be the most effective.

[CARBIZ]

YADDA, YADDA, YADDA. Hey, you forgot racist on your list, too. Don't be all patting yourselves on the back because America's $11trilllion economy is bigger than the next 3 largest economies. American soldiers are paying for Iraq with their blood, but Chinese and Japanese financiers are paying for it. Just wait until they call in their chits.

Has it ever occured to you that Washington doesn't do anything because it CAN'T? Blackmail doesn't always come in the form of a letter under the door. There are many, many scary things at play in the world today, and we in the West are still living in the 1950s.

Totally off topic, but one item I came across recently that scares the crap out of me: Russia is losing nearly a million people a year, either throught death or emigration. They have a 2,400 mile border with China. China is growing at 3 million a year. 80% of Russia's resources are in Siberia or near the Chinese border. Do you think Russia sold Alaska to the U.S. because it wanted to? No. They knew that either Britain or the U.S. would take it, so Russia decided to sell it while it could. Do I need to draw a picture for you?

Japanese and Chinese companies force Western companies to form "partnerships" to steal the technology, then remarket the same items in our own back yards at half the price. Well, no wonder: if you don't have to spend the money on R&D, of course your product will be cheaper! Canada is about to be black-listed by Hollywood because we are a huge source of illegal DVDs. Hell, everybody at my work watched Blood Diamond and the new 007 weeks and weeks ago! In a related article, the local police made a token raid on Pacific Mall in north Toronto where not an English sign resides.

I challenge anyone on this board to try and buy a house or business in China or Japan. Go ahead. See what happens. Yet, we are allowing huge tracts of lands, buildings and entire industries to be bought up by them. Oh, yeah, and in exchange, they finance our penchant for cheap imported goods, and our government's inability to balance their damned budgets.

Wake up people, there is a big difference between FREE TRADE and what is happening between the West and Asia. Big difference. They barely hold their contempt for us in public, let alone in private. Funny, they will send their kids here to be educated, but then they are summarily yanked home, unless they can prove they are buying up half the city.

And just for total disclosure, before everyone flames me for being racist, 6 years ago I was dating a very well-known (well, at least over there!) Hong Kong entertainment personality, so NO I am not racist, I am just sick of us selling our futures so that we can buy $20 toasters. Or "better" cars.

[Camino LS6]

Free trade helps us as Americans; not hurt us. Better to help all millions of Americans rather than help just a few thousand because of special interests.

Being "fair trade" or "protectionist" or whatever you call it is exactly the same as being anti-competition. Anti-competition is what Communism, Socialism, and Dictatorships base their government on. A government that works based on Free Market Capatilism will be the most effective.

Are you nuts?

Fair trade has absolutely nothing to do with any of the above. Our gripe here is that our own government allows the Asian companies (with the help of their governments) to stack the deck in their own favor in our home market. Meanwhile they erect barriers to our exports in a near fanatic way and our government ignores it.

If you want to see socialism, look at Japan. It may not be dictatorial in structure, but the entrenched traditions and collective actions of both its industry and government amount to much the same thing. They are an insulated, homogeneous society that acts in concert in ways that would be called collusion and corruption here. Japan has one of the most extreme systems of protectionism in the world. Some of this is simply cultural, but much of it is calculated economic warfare and we are the main target.

[lakefire]

Are you nuts?

Fair trade has absolutely nothing to do with any of the above. Our gripe here is that our own government allows the Asian companies (with the help of their governments) to stack the deck in their own favor in our home market. Meanwhile they erect barriers to our exports in a near fanatic way and our government ignores it.

If you want to see socialism, look at Japan. It may not be dictatorial in structure, but the entrenched traditions and collective actions of both its industry and government amount to much the same thing. They are an insulated, homogeneous society that acts in concert in ways that would be called collusion and corruption here. Japan has one of the most extreme systems of protectionism in the world. Some of this is simply cultural, but much of it is calculated economic warfare and we are the main target.

So, because Japan is socialist and gives favors to it's businesses we should too? We are a free market capitalist society that has allowed us to become the largest, most powerful economy in the world. Do you want to risk losing that to help out a couple of auto companies? Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of supporting GM/Chrysler/Ford by purchasing their cars, but that is it. There shouldn't be government handouts. If GM can't figure out how to make cars that people want to purchase they should go out of business.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Are you nuts?

Fair trade has absolutely nothing to do with any of the above. Our gripe here is that our own government allows the Asian companies (with the help of their governments) to stack the deck in their own favor in our home market. Meanwhile they erect barriers to our exports in a near fanatic way and our government ignores it.

If you want to see socialism, look at Japan. It may not be dictatorial in structure, but the entrenched traditions and collective actions of both its industry and government amount to much the same thing. They are an insulated, homogeneous society that acts in concert in ways that would be called collusion and corruption here. Japan has one of the most extreme systems of protectionism in the world. Some of this is simply cultural, but much of it is calculated economic warfare and we are the main target.

He doesn't get it Camino LS6, so don't waste your breath. He will get it when American is turned into a 3rd world nation, and it's manufacturing base and high tech jobs are all outsourced and he can't get a a job with a decent wage to support his family. Then his eyes will be wide open, but it will be to late.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[lakefire]

He doesn't get it Camino LS6, so don't waste your breath. He will get it when American is turned into a 3rd world nation, and it's manufacturing base and high tech jobs are all outsourced and he can't get a a job with a decent wage to support his family. Then his eyes will be wide open, but it will be to late.

Ya, me and nearly 90% of economists don't get it.

Economics of free trade

The literature analysing the economics of free trade is extremely rich with extensive work having been done on the theoretical and empirical effects. Though it creates winners and losers, the broad consensus among members of the economics profession in the U.S. is that free trade is a large and unambiguous net gain for society.[3][4] In a 2006 survey of economists, "87.5% agree that the U.S. should eliminate remaining tariffs and other barriers to trade" and "90.1% disagree with the suggestion that the U.S. should restrict employers from outsourcing work to foreign countries."[5] Quoting Harvard economics professor Gregory Mankiw, "Few propositions command as much consensus among professional economists as that open world trade increases economic growth and raises living standards."[6] Two simple ways to understand the benefits of free trade are through David Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage and by analyzing the impact of a tariff or import quota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

[balthazar]

Short-term economists agree: take the money & run.

>>"We are a free market capitalist society that has allowed us to become the largest, most powerful economy in the world"<<

Pretty sure that occurred before we became an open free market to the world, not since.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ya, me and nearly 90% of economists don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade

Please don't quote wikipedia to me. Garbage in, garbage out!

[CARBIZ]

Not to denigrate the accomplishments of the U.S. over the past 100 years, but let's face it: with a blessed topography, climate and geography, straddling the Old World (Europe) and the NEW NEW World (Asia), America could not help becoming a global super power. Yes, being a nation of immigrants when America tended (past tense) to absorb the best that those immigrants had to offer also greatly aided to her success.

But let's not wallow in what WAS. Our enemies are using our former strengths (freedom of expression and thought) against us, and doing a better job of it. The U.S. is a seriously fractured animal at this point in history; China and Japan are not. I desperately hope that I am wrong, but the next 10 - 15 years are going to see Europe and probably Canada slide over the abyss. Decisions that are made in the U.S. in the next few years are going to decide whether it remains a hyperpower, or merely another has-been power, like Britain and France.

Let's face it: Japan would have already slipped into Second World status if not for the single-mindedness of MITI over the past 50 years. Japan has no real natural resources of her own and must import nearly everything. How long could her economy have sustained that? The only bright spot (if it can be viewed as that) is that Japan's population is starting to implode and that may cause structural weaknesses that could potentially give North America some breathing space (sort of like the "truck bubble" has delayed GM and Ford's slide). China, on the contrary, is exploding in population and reaching out globally. East Africa and much of Arabia is falling under Chinese influence. Russia may not be far behind.

Economists tend to be very narrow in their field. The sense of world economy is fairly new and I truly wonder how many economists have a handle on the complexities of that. Reaginism/Thatcherism caught even conservatives by surprise, but could any one idea have the same impact on today's World Economy?

[regfootball]

Not to denigrate the accomplishments of the U.S. over the past 100 years, but let's face it: with a blessed topography, climate and geography, straddling the Old World (Europe) and the NEW NEW World (Asia), America could not help becoming a global super power. Yes, being a nation of immigrants when America tended (past tense) to absorb the best that those immigrants had to offer also greatly aided to her success.

But let's not wallow in what WAS. Our enemies are using our former strengths (freedom of expression and thought) against us, and doing a better job of it. The U.S. is a seriously fractured animal at this point in history; China and Japan are not. I desperately hope that I am wrong, but the next 10 - 15 years are going to see Europe and probably Canada slide over the abyss. Decisions that are made in the U.S. in the next few years are going to decide whether it remains a hyperpower, or merely another has-been power, like Britain and France.

Let's face it: Japan would have already slipped into Second World status if not for the single-mindedness of MITI over the past 50 years. Japan has no real natural resources of her own and must import nearly everything. How long could her economy have sustained that? The only bright spot (if it can be viewed as that) is that Japan's population is starting to implode and that may cause structural weaknesses that could potentially give North America some breathing space (sort of like the "truck bubble" has delayed GM and Ford's slide). China, on the contrary, is exploding in population and reaching out globally. East Africa and much of Arabia is falling under Chinese influence. Russia may not be far behind.

Economists tend to be very narrow in their field. The sense of world economy is fairly new and I truly wonder how many economists have a handle on the complexities of that. Reaginism/Thatcherism caught even conservatives by surprise, but could any one idea have the same impact on today's World Economy?

I am for the concept of free trade generally, if its reciprocal. Thing is, there's too much to suggest that its not. It seems we have a lot more of a fair relationship with China vs. Japan but the economics of goods made in China means our imblance with them is more due to numbers and the pure amount of crap we buy rather than Japan where its a manipulated situation. At least China is interested in partnering in some things.

America's problem is the whole needing to not offend and be politically correct. BIZ is right, they use our freedom and expression of thought against us. Our own internal mandate to play fair gives outsiders far too many advantages against us. It's almost as if we'll implode for no other reason than having our laws set up to do 'the right thing'.

Our journalists spend time in America wiriting about how morally awful we are because we get upset when a Muslim cashier at a Target store refuses to scan a package of bacon because of their 'religion' and make it seem like a huge travesty when in effect, they could simply not take the job. Nope, gotta have it both ways. Or Muslim cabbies at the airport who refuse to give rides to people with dogs or alcohol. We focus on what a hardship it is for the cabbie when instead we need to think about the person who needs a ride who is getting screwed. The cabbie shouldn't take the job if transporting people is against his religion. I don't see too many Catholics refusing to work at McDonalds on Filet o Fish Friday.

Edited March 25, 2007 by regfootball

[Solar Max]

I challenge anyone on this board to try and buy a house or business in China or Japan. Go ahead. See what happens. Yet, we are allowing huge tracts of lands, buildings and entire industries to be bought up by them. Oh, yeah, and in exchange, they finance our penchant for cheap imported goods, and our government's inability to balance their damned budgets.

Wake up people, there is a big difference between FREE TRADE and what is happening between the West and Asia. Big difference. They barely hold their contempt for us in public, let alone in private. Funny, they will send their kids here to be educated, but then they are summarily yanked home, unless they can prove they are buying up half the city.

And just for total disclosure, before everyone flames me for being racist, 6 years ago I was dating a very well-known (well, at least over there!) Hong Kong entertainment personality, so NO I am not racist, I am just sick of us selling our futures so that we can buy $20 toasters. Or "better" cars.

Most people are happy to carry on being totally oblivious to the Trade War now going on, but if a gaijin says anything about protecting the North American economy, they're instantly labelled a racist and ridiculed.

It's much more convenient for them to ignore the actions of foreign governments and corporations when they want a Sony Walkman, a Nissan Sentra, or a JVC TV. That way they don't feel any guilt about who they are actually putting out of work. Most North Americans will do or say anything to justify their tacit support of the Japanese Economic War Machine.

It seems that younger people are the ones most easily swayed into the Eastern Camp; they have no memory of how the Japanese have manipulated the North American Auto Industry, and other industries.

I do.

[Variance]

Please don't quote wikipedia to me. Garbage in, garbage out!

Why do people like to make the assumption that Wikipedia is somehow a bad source? It is fact-checked, you know.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Depends on when the so called facts are checked now, doesn't it.

[FAPTurbo]

Keep in mind that Japan is already paying for it's near fanatic barriers against all things foreign.

The country is literally dying and it's economy is getting worse. Their idiotic (non)immigration policy is causing their population to become, weak, old, frail and grey. It's almost every week that I read in the business section of my paper of something that China and Korea is topping Japan at, or there's usually a story about how crappy Japan is doing.

Besides... people in their, like, 40's read comic books and go to cafe's with barely legal girls dressed like video game characters. If that isn't a sign of a civilization in the sh*tter, I don't know what is.

[balthazar]

Why do people like to make the assumption that Wikipedia is somehow a bad source? It is fact-checked, you know.

As one who values fact over all, I've jumped into the trenches and slugged it out over at Wiki. There was no 'fact checking' performed on those articles I had to fight tooth and nail with the self-appointed, ego-stroking 'experts' over there just to get a laughable mess of innuendo & opinion striken and some black & white put in. For an online 'information' source, it is fraught with erroneous entries... it's NOT an assumption. Sure, perhaps the majority of entries are reliable, but in that I've cleaned up a dozen or more automotive entries myself, I wouldn't ever blindly rely on it at random.

[capriceman]

To have power is to have either Strong Government or industry not business.

Leaving the auto companies out of this..

I don't care what a Economist says, really all you need is a history book.

And powerful nation or Empire has either had a godly government or strong industry. Nothing has ever had power being a middle man which we are.

The US never had a strong government or over ruling one. but as soon as the industrial revolution started we kept gaining strength. Its how the North won the Civil War. Its the reason why WW1 was basically a stalemate even though one side said they were victorious. It is the reason why the allies won WW2. Also It was the number 1 target in every bombing raid in the Pacific and European Theaters. Plus it was the staple in ending the cold war.

But what about before industry? The Roman Empire didn't grow as big as it did by bowing down to its enemy. Either did Great Britain. There Governments limited there citizens and enforced its expanding borders.

I think i make a clear point. Can you? Only Using History because its been proven that we learn from the past not the present.

[zhawk]

To have power is to have either Strong Government or industry not business.

Leaving the auto companies out of this..

I don't care what a Economist says, really all you need is a history book.

And powerful nation or Empire has either had a godly government or strong industry. Nothing has ever had power being a middle man which we are.

The US never had a strong government or over ruling one. but as soon as the industrial revolution started we kept gaining strength. Its how the North won the Civil War. Its the reason why WW1 was basically a stalemate even though one side said they were victorious. It is the reason why the allies won WW2. Also It was the number 1 target in every bombing raid in the Pacific and European Theaters. Plus it was the staple in ending the cold war.

But what about before industry? The Roman Empire didn't grow as big as it did by bowing down to its enemy. Either did Great Britain. There Governments limited there citizens and enforced its expanding borders.

I think i make a clear point. Can you? Only Using History because its been proven that we learn from the past not the present.

What he said.

There is a balance between playing fair in economics. Unfortunately, our trade policies has our country laying down for other nations and we are getting raped as a result. We don't need to restrict trade, just insist on fair trade.

[CARBIZ]

There was a glowing stroke-piece in the National Post today about Japan's stagnant real estate industry finally showing signs of life and how Japan spends more on R&D than the U.S. They also talked about having more PHDs and that the government pays them. Hmm. Sounds like a battle plan to me.

Japan Inc is in it for the long haul. One of the reasons their banking sector has had problems is due to the zero percent business loans they hand out and the leverages made on the real estate boom in the '80s and early '90s, plus all the American T-bills they are stocking up on for the day they will OWN Washington.

[Variance]

...plus all the American T-bills they are stocking up on for the day they will OWN Washington.

Christ, not this &#036;h&#33; again...

Can we cut down on the hyperbole a tad?

[FAPTurbo]

Christ, not this &#036;h&#33; again...

Can we cut down on the hyperbole a tad?

No, not until Pearl Harbour or the 'rape of Nanjing' is referenced.

[RichW5]

While I can't get into the article, I can easily guess it's substance, based on the postings in this thread.

First, I believe in "Fair Trade", not free trade. Fair trade is trade between partners without protectionist barriers form either side. Examples are the trade barriers Japan erects against the import of American goods. Apples and beef are two examples, since some posters don't want to talk about the barriers Japan erects against the American auto industry.

If we were to dig deep enough, we would find that the policy of of government closing it's eyes to the unfair trade policies of Japan were the result of an effort to rebuild Japan (and Western Europe) as an ally against the Soviet Union and Communist China. Since that's political, I'll end that statement here.

Unfortunately, in rebuilding Japan, American corporations found that they could make their products for less cost in Japan, reaping hugh profits. It got out of control and before we knew it our electronics industry was history.

Korea adopted the same type of trade policies as Japan and has erected trade barriers against American autos and others goods, while we are protecting their borders at American expense.

Finally China became part of the equation, demanding that companies trading with China must build their factories in China. American companies jumped at the chance to build their goods, with cheap labor, in China, while checkmating unions here in the US. It was a win-win for corporations and China, and a loss for manufacturing and jobs in the US. Our government, under both parties, has closed it's eyes, because they believe that if they keep China busy manufacturing, it will have no interest in spreading communism or war. They believe that if the Chinese people get rich in trade, they will switch their government from communism to capitalist. Guess what, it ain't gonna happen.

Now if I were in charge, I would institute a "Fair Trade" policy. If a country had a trade barrier against an American product, I would enact an equal (fair) trade barrier against their products. Japan has restrictions against "foreign ownership" of Japanese corporations, while we've allowed Japan, Inc. to buy up our companies. That would stop.

China should scare everyone here. If it's allowed to export it's vehicles to the US without equal trade agreements (build your products here as they demand of us), our auto industry will be history.

[Sixty8panther]

Anti-free trade. PRO FAIR-TRADE.

Yeah. Seriously!

The TV annalogy is a perfect parallel to what is going on today with the car industry.

The biggest differance is that this time, with the Japanese Auto Manufacturers

(esp. w/ Toyota & Honda) they also have the media on their side.

[Sixty8panther]

And as far as WIKI, I think it's about as reliable as those magazines at the check out counter at Stop&Shop...

"Bat-Boy and Femi-Sasquach have hemaphrodyte dolphin baby..."

or

"Narcysystic, claustrophobic, socialist Gweneth Paltrow gets sex change & joins the Chinese Air Force..."