Al Gore and American Auto Companies

[6t5frlane]

Anybody see old Al tear into the USA Car makers yesterday. Said the reason that they are in trouble is because nobody wants to buy Gas Guzzlers anymore. Started going on about how good Toyota is...blah..blah.......blah. Sickening. Was he Vice President of Japan. He needs to get his info correct. He made it sound like the USA cars get 10 miles to the gallon. ALL of them. WTF Al

[ellives]

Anybody see old Al tear into the USA Car makers yesterday. Said the reason that they are in trouble is because nobody wants to buy Gas Guzzlers anymore. Started going on about how good Toyota is...blah..blah.......blah. Sickening. Was he Vice President of Japan. He needs to get his info correct. He made it sound like the USA cars get 10 miles to the gallon. ALL of them. WTF Al

He's ignorant and uninformed. Shouldn't be a surprise since he's a politician. Detroit owns some responsibility for Al's lack of understanding since they do such an abysmal job marketing themselves. I admit I was shocked myself when I looked at the EPA mileage numbers for the Tacoma v6 vs. the Chevy 1500. Don't really understand why anyone would buy the Taco - certainly not justified for the 1 mpg difference.

[avant1963]

You need to sit and really look at without the hatred many people have for Al Gore for some reason. Al did say:

"Don't single out cars and trucks," Gore said in a lengthy statement before a pair of House subcommittees. He described emissions from motor vehicles as "only a slice of the problem" and not the biggest slice.

I can't believe that any reasonably thinking person cannot understand that PEOPLE are contributing to Global Heating. How could all the millions of cars, trucks and buses, coal plants and emissions not be helping? There are natural cycles of heating and cooling of the earth, but we are helping it out, big time. What's wrong with making new industries in wind, solar and wave power? Why are people so against this?

If you could place a small solar panel on your roof attached to your hot water heater so it will no longer cost you any money to heat your water ever again... you would be opposed to this? Well, if we would stop letting the Oil Companies set our policies, research would have been made for this and it would be cheap enough that Joe Shmoe could afford it. And you are against this? Drop the hatred and politics and think.

[avant1963]

And I am the biggest GM supporter here, $h! I started this site 6 years ago, but can you honestly say that if GM focused on a small engine that had killer gas millage (to offset the big honking V-8 that I love so much) we would be sitting here today with Toyota owning the millage wars, PR or not? IS it a good thing that the Aveo gets worse "posted" millage than the Corolla?

[ellives]

You need to sit and really look at without the hatred many people have for Al Gore for some reason. Al did say:

"Don't single out cars and trucks," Gore said in a lengthy statement before a pair of House subcommittees. He described emissions from motor vehicles as "only a slice of the problem" and not the biggest slice.

I can't believe that any reasonably thinking person cannot understand that PEOPLE are contributing to Global Heating. How could all the millions of cars, trucks and buses, coal plants and emissions not be helping? There are natural cycles of heating and cooling of the earth, but we are helping it out, big time. What's wrong with making new industries in wind, solar and wave power? Why are people so against this?

If you could place a small solar panel on your roof attached to your hot water heater so it will no longer cost you any money to heat your water ever again... you would be opposed to this? Well, if we would stop letting the Oil Companies set our policies, research would have been made for this and it would be cheap enough that Joe Shmoe could afford it. And you are against this? Drop the hatred and politics and think.

Who said anything about hatred? I don't hate Al. He's a good guy and his heart is in the right place but he needs to be careful with his words. There are plenty other politicians I really dislike but Al isn't one of them.

One other comment... a "small solar panel" will not heat your water consistently in lots of the US. They will need to be big panels and there will be a need for storage. This approach will only address part of the problem. In the end it will all come down to cost and since the cost of oil is rising, market forces will drive different approaches to energy requirements. Personally I intend to dump my oil fired boiler in my home by next year. I don't care about the cost issues any more. I'm not contributing any more money to oil companies than I have to. Period.

[avant1963]

The opening post is where my "hatred" comment was directed, sorry for the misunderstanding. We posted around the same time, and I did not read your post until after I posted.

You make my point. If we weren't so in bed with Big Oil, maybe technology would have advanced were it wouldn't take $100,000 and all of your roof to power parts of your house with solar. Just imagine what 30 years of focused work on solar, wind and wave technology would have given us. If the US did not drop the projects in the 1980's, where would we be?

It's ashamed that we had to be backed against the wall for this all to happen. While I understand that gas prices have to rise for Americans to do something, this increase in price impacts those that that least afford it. The middle-to-lower-class Americans should have already had a choice to cut dependency on oil, but it's these people that will be hurt the most. That's the catch-22. There is no easy answer to this anymore, but just like the war, many Americans don't want to give up anything to get things done (this was the first war were we demanded tax-CUTS. Usually there is tax-increases to pay for it and drafts that put everyone in the game.)

[6t5frlane]

Avant1963 " Drop the Politics and think " A dose of that for you might be just the thing. He was comparing the Big 3 or US automakers to Japan. While you are on your soapbox hook up your solar TV and take a peak at this part of his speech. This was not about politics so much as his mis information in regards to US automakers. He stated that people do not but US cars and trucks because they are all Gas Guzzlers ". Does not matter which side of the aisle you are from but when I think of a G6 or cobalt I do not think gas guzzler thats all.....

[avant1963]

I am searching for that quote. If that is what he said, by isolating only US manufacturers, than I have to completely disagree with him. I've been reading stuff from his hearing yesterday, but I have not found the anti-US manufacturer quote.

I do agree that the US Manufacturers could have done MUCH better in the past 20 years in making more fuel-efficient engines for those that want them, while still making powerful engines for those of us that love them. And agree that they would be doing much better if they had more smaller cars with better milleage.

[6t5frlane]

avant.Not sure where you will find his speech but I saw it. It was live on maybe C span or some other network. I was stunned. I give the guy credit for trying to accomplish something that will be very hard to do. I do not think outside the USA people will give him much notice.

[avant1963]

And I apologize to you 6t5frlane for going off on my rant without understanding the point you were making. There has been so much garbage thrown at Gore and trying to cut emissions, that I thought this was another one of those, but you and I agree on this.

[carstar]

And agree that they would be doing much better if they had more smaller cars with better milleage.

If the aveo and the cobalt (LS, LT, LTZ) had vvt, the milleage would be better.

IS it a good thing that the Aveo gets worse "posted" millage than the Corolla?

That's f---ing unacceptble.

How about this, some ppl are stuck with cheap old trucks, suv, or cars that get low millage and they can not afford to purchase a new car that gets about 10 mpg better than what they have. Add the higher insurance, tax, and any other expenses making a expence of 15 to 22k. How would it encourage those folks that have a average-low income, to buy a fuel efficent car?? The bus is not always the best answer because it's not in every single block, the parent(s) have full time job(s), take the kids to school. ect, tight schedule.

Global warming is not a big deal to some cause it's not tangable, but higher gas price (read money) is. At the gas stations do you think that people are complaining about global waming?

Edited March 22, 2007 by carstar

[ellives]

The opening post is where my "hatred" comment was directed, sorry for the misunderstanding. We posted around the same time, and I did not read your post until after I posted.

You make my point. If we weren't so in bed with Big Oil, maybe technology would have advanced were it wouldn't take $100,000 and all of your roof to power parts of your house with solar. Just imagine what 30 years of focused work on solar, wind and wave technology would have given us. If the US did not drop the projects in the 1980's, where would we be?

It's ashamed that we had to be backed against the wall for this all to happen. While I understand that gas prices have to rise for Americans to do something, this increase in price impacts those that that least afford it. The middle-to-lower-class Americans should have already had a choice to cut dependency on oil, but it's these people that will be hurt the most. That's the catch-22. There is no easy answer to this anymore, but just like the war, many Americans don't want to give up anything to get things done (this was the first war were we demanded tax-CUTS. Usually there is tax-increases to pay for it and drafts that put everyone in the game.)

The "tax-CUTS" phenomena was a Bush tactic used to convince an otherwise apathetic public to support him. He mortgaged our children's future to advance his political agenda for which he will pay dearly for in the history books. The truth be told it was a Rove tactic which Bush wasn't smart enough to resist. Rove doesn't care - he's not the president. The problem with Bush is he can't see beyond what's in front of him. He's not a strategist which is why he has Rove and unfortunately because of this deficiency he's viritually guaranteed a Democrat president AND congress. Beyond this huge problem Bush and Rove do make an excellent good cop/bad cop.

When you refer back to the 1980's it makes me laugh because a good deal of the reason why many of the traditional renewable energy programs were dropped was because of the nuclear power industry. I can still hear them saying electricity will be "too cheap to meter." As a result here in New Hampshire we have some of the highest rates in the country after we built our plant. Unfortunately we'll never learn. The nuclear power industry is back to selling the benefits of nuclear power and the public is again buying the bull$h! hook-line-and-sinker. They'll tout how much the technology has improved (to overcome any concern about a Three Mile Island-type problem) and argue it's a needed energy source. All the while they'll ignore and neglect to address the waste problem which continues on unabated from plants built back in the 80's. Yes - give me wind energy any time.

[ellives]

If the aveo and the cobalt (LS, LT, LTZ) had vvt, the milleage would be better.

That's f---ing unacceptble.

How about this, some ppl are stuck with cheap old trucks, suv, or cars that get low millage and they can not afford to purchase a new car that gets about 10 mpg better than what they have. Add the higher insurance, tax, and any other expenses making a expence of 15 to 22k. How would it encourage those folks that have a average-low income, to buy a fuel efficent car?? The bus is not always the best answer because it's not in every single block, the parent(s) have full time job(s), take the kids to school. ect, tight schedule.

Global warming is not a big deal to some cause it's not tangable, but higher gas price (read money) is. At the gas stations do you think that people are complaining about global waming?

These people will have the same problem they have now. They aren't the ones (typically) buying new cars. They buy used ones that are cheaper. Once new ones are built and purchased, they will flow into the mainstream over time and these people you're describing will also get the benefit of better mileage.

What was the point of this post anyway?

[carstar]

These people will have the same problem they have now. They aren't the ones (typically) buying new cars. They buy used ones that are cheaper. Once new ones are built and purchased, they will flow into the mainstream over time and these people you're describing will also get the benefit of better mileage.

What was the point of this post anyway?

My post? I guess i rant at the wrong topic.

[Robert Hall]

If the aveo and the cobalt (LS, LT, LTZ) had vvt, the milleage would be better.

That's f---ing unacceptble.

How about this, some ppl are stuck with cheap old trucks, suv, or cars that get low millage and they can not afford to purchase a new car that gets about 10 mpg better than what they have. Add the higher insurance, tax, and any other expenses making a expence of 15 to 22k. How would it encourage those folks that have a average-low income, to buy a fuel efficent car?? The bus is not always the best answer because it's not in every single block, the parent(s) have full time job(s), take the kids to school. ect, tight schedule.

Global warming is not a big deal to some cause it's not tangable, but higher gas price (read money) is. At the gas stations do you think that people are complaining about global waming?

Most people don't care about the long term consequences of global warming..they are content to live for today and let their children or grandchildren 20-50 years down the road deal with a ruined, uninhabitable world... 'fu*k the future'.

[bowtie_dude]

http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/articl...?article_id=367

Al Gore’s Personal Energy Use Is His Own “Inconvenient Truth”

Gore’s home uses more than 20 times the national average

Last night, Al Gore’s global-warming documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, collected an Oscar for best documentary feature, but the Tennessee Center for Policy Research has found that Gore deserves a gold statue for hypocrisy.

Gore’s mansion, located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville, consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric Service (NES).

In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.

The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh—more than 20 times the national average.

Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.

Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.

Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.

“As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use,” said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.

In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.

Al Gore's a hypocrit.

/thread

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ahhh, but it's OK for Al to fly around in private jets to talk about the gas guzzling American cars? What a Moron Al Gore is, he's as dumb as they come. Our version of Prince Charles, I mean just look at him, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Just watch him speak and watch how his eyes shift back and forth the whole time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef2bQzDbcP8

Edited March 22, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[bowtie_dude]

Ahhh, but it's OK for Al to fly around in private jets to talk about the gas guzzling American cars? What a Moron Al Gore is, he's as dumb as they come. Our version of Prince Charles, I mean just look at him, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef2bQzDbcP8

But its ok. He purchases credits from a green company that offsets the energy he consumes.

Of course he also OWNS that very company so its not as if he's getting nothing out of it.

[Sixty8panther]

This thread aside, Gore is a retarded, hypocritical, annoying egomaniac.

And Walt: while we're on the subject, thanks for Starting C&G.

[regfootball]

our politicians have no leadership. neither do our business leaders. our citizens have no ability to wherewithal to enact things for themselves

we're basically f-cked.

-bsuh needs to be gone

-big oil needs to back off

-we need leaders to state the need for us to invest in developing our future

-we need everyone to follow through on it including biting the bullet and investing money

-the focus should not be global warming because there is no fact in it. it's theory. but we should be developing alternative and renewable energy.

Edited March 23, 2007 by regfootball

[z28luvr01]

our politicians have no leadership. neither do our business leaders. our citizens have no ability to wherewithal to enact things for themselves

we're basically f-cked.

-bsuh needs to be gone

-big oil needs to back off

-we need leaders to state the need for us to invest in developing our future

-we need everyone to follow through on it including biting the bullet and investing money

-the focus should not be global warming because there is no fact in it. it's theory. but we should be developing alternative and renewable energy.

Big business runs this country. Doesn't matter who's in the White House - he's just a puppet as are the 535 people in Congress. Anyone with deep enough pockets who's willing to share some of that wealth with the government can have some time pulling the strings. Until lobbyists and special interest groups are wiped out the ridiculously wealthy will be the only ones with a say in this country. Wind energy, solar engery, geothermic energy, etc., as infinitely promising as they are, are going to be relegated to interesting science projects for college students as long as Big Oil has its say.

[haypops]

Al Gore's a hypocrit.

Actually the article quoted in the original post is a well know hit job. The right wing organization that put out the lies didn't get the usage rate from Al Gore nor did they get the information from the utility company. They guessed at what would be expected and then used false comparisons to make it look excessive. As it turns out the Gores use only 12, not 20 times national averages. Furthermore Tennessee averages do not relate to national averages. Because of climatic differences, Tennesseans need to use more electricity (air conditioning etc .) Likewise the Gore's are not an average family but actually Al and his wife both run businesses out of the home. Also there are more than an average number of people at the location because of family and secret service. The Gores don't purchase carbon offsets as much as they pay a premium for electricity produced from green sources such as solar and wind. It's all a hypocritical lie.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

our politicians have no leadership. neither do our business leaders. our citizens have no ability to wherewithal to enact things for themselves

we're basically f-cked.

-bsuh needs to be gone

-big oil needs to back off

-we need leaders to state the need for us to invest in developing our future

-we need everyone to follow through on it including biting the bullet and investing money

-the focus should not be global warming because there is no fact in it. it's theory. but we should be developing alternative and renewable energy.

Amen.

[jry]

yup, old al in living in the 70's still.

he is loyal to toyota now but nissan is the big dog in Nashville, aren't they?

[ellives]

yup, old al in living in the 70's still.

he is loyal to toyota now but nissan is the big dog in Nashville, aren't they?

At least he has the balls to stand up and speak his mind. He may need a little educating on the car business but at least his heart is in the right place. It's a lot more than we can say about Bush who, in the end, is a scared little man with serious problems of self-adequacy.

[RichW5]

Actually the article quoted in the original post is a well know hit job. The right wing organization that put out the lies didn't get the usage rate from Al Gore nor did they get the information from the utility company. They guessed at what would be expected and then used false comparisons to make it look excessive. As it turns out the Gores use only 12, not 20 times national averages. Furthermore Tennessee averages do not relate to national averages. Because of climatic differences, Tennesseans need to use more electricity (air conditioning etc .) Likewise the Gore's are not an average family but actually Al and his wife both run businesses out of the home. Also there are more than an average number of people at the location because of family and secret service. The Gores don't purchase carbon offsets as much as they pay a premium for electricity produced from green sources such as solar and wind. It's all a hypocritical lie.

What a bunch of hogwash!

Do you have any proof that this right-wing group didn't get the information from the utility company? How do you guess at what could be expected and then make false comparisons? Further more, national averages include Tennessee. It is a part of the nation. Twelve times the national average is a huge amount, by any standard. By your standards, the southwestern states use more electricity due to climatic differences. How do you know that Gore pays a premium for electricity produced from green sources?

If you can't prove what you say, don't say it! Otherwise you're just repeating the lies of left-wing organizations.

Since I'm neither left-wing or right-wing, I can honestly say that Al Gore has made a fortune traveling around the world promoting his movie and himself. He's used private jets in the past and probably still does. These jets pollute the air and waste enormus amounts of fuel that could be used for the good of the general public. If I use your figure (12 times the average utility usage), that's still an enormus amount of energy. If you look back at Al's past statements, he proposed a 50 cent a gallon gas tax. In today's environment, it would probably be a dollar a gallon.

Regfootball is right!

We have no real leaders in our government and in most of our corporations.

Government leaders need to set the example for all of us, by reducing their energy footprint.

They need to subsidize mass transit and use it themselves.

Tax the use of corporate Jets!

Eliminate oil company subsidities!

Institute government funding of elections, with no private funding allowed!

Bring back American industry! Stop sending my grandson's future to China!

It's just not gonna happen, so I do my part by recycling, using fluorescent bulbs where ever I can and not being a stoplight dragster. Sorry, I lied about the stoplight dragster, a guy's got to have some fun.

[haypops]

Do you have any proof that this right-wing group didn't get the information from the utility company?

The utility company said that they didn't give out that information to anyone. If you think about it this kind of information is protected by privacy laws and only available to law inforcement and then probably only with a subpoena. here is yet another way to look at it. Do you think I can call your parents utility company and get a copy of their utility bill!

How do you know that Gore pays a premium for electricity produced from green sources?

His spokesmen reported that this was the case and it was confirmed by the local utility provider.

If you can't prove what you say, don't say it! Otherwise you're just repeating the lies of left-wing organizations.

Logically since you are taking up the side of those accusing Al Gore, the burden of proof is yours not mine. It is the accusers responsibility; innocent until proved guilty and all that.

I can honestly say that Al Gore has made a fortune traveling around the world promoting his movie and himself

Prove it! In reality he has made his fortune by investing in Google and every time someone else uses it (I assume that you don't do much research) , they make him wealthier. My wife bought the DVD to his award winning documentary and it includes instructions to pass it on to friends so that his "profits" are sacrificed for the good of the general public.

He's used private jets in the past and probably still does.

Every time I see him on a news video, etc. he is at a commercial airline terminal.

[Flybrian]

I watched An Inconvenient Truth last night on whatever cable channel it was on and its worth the watch regardless of your personal viewpoints. Yes, for the record, he makes mis-statements about the US auto industry.

For one, he mentions that China is beginning to impose higher fuel economy standards than the United States and makes the comment that (paraphrasing) "We can't sell our cars in China" despite the facts that GM is performing above-admirably in that market.

He also contrasts Toyota/Honda with Ford/GM in terms of market capitalization as a function of environmental efficiency, inferring that the former are doing well because of their fuel-efficient vehicles while the latter are suffering for lack of them. While such is true, it is only a small factor of why there is success/failure on their parts. It obviously ignores the exponential growth in Toyota's truck fleet and what must be a fall in their corporate fuel economy while ignoring exchange rates, legacy costs, and other contrasting factors between the Japanese and American manufacturers.

However, that said, instead of nitpicking, one needs to understand the overall portrait Gore is painting - that we as a society and as a nation need to cognizent of our affect on nature and our world. And whether the clarion call is for global warming or something else, we need to realize that we make our national leaders, not the other way around, and if we realize and understand the ramifications of our actions, we will be better prepared to face and counter them in the future.

As for the partianship, remember that George Bush pretty much summed up his allegiencies with the domestic auto industry by saying, "Build better cars."

[regfootball]

Regfootball is right!

WHOA.

sorry. i had to push part of Anna Nicole out of my face to read that again.

DID SOMEONE REALLY SAY THAT?

shoooot. I need a beer.

HEY ANNA, YOU FAT ARSE, GET ME A BEER!!!!

the Bahamas is not a bad place to be.

Edited March 24, 2007 by regfootball

[ellives]

WHOA.

sorry. i had to push part of Anna Nicole out of my face to read that again.

DID SOMEONE REALLY SAY THAT?

shoooot. I need a beer.

HEY ANNA, YOU FAT ARSE, GET ME A BEER!!!!

the Bahamas is not a bad place to be.

Sorry. I think Rich W5 has obviously already consumed all available beer.

[RichW5]

Let me see ......... on Gores electric bills

Kalee Kreider, a spokesperson for the Gores, did not dispute the Center's figures, taken as they were from public records.

In fact, while in office, Gores income tax records are "public records" that show Al lives by a different standard than he preaches. Apparently you don't research from both view points Pops, just the Gore side.

Gore's energy credits are purchased from a London based company which he co-founded and has a financial interest in. In other words, he makes money by selling his energy credits to his own company.

Do you believe everything a Gore spokesman tells you? Where's your honesty check?

Al Gores speakers fee is $100,000 to speak about an "Inconvenient Truth", so he is getting rich off the book and movie. Check it out, that is the price the U of Arizona paid to Gore.

Al gore only used private corporate jets until the it was in the news. That info can be found in most news archives if you really want the truth.

Is the zinc mining on Gores property green? He gets $20,000 a year from the mining company, while it pollutes a nearby river.

I grew up as a Chicago Democrat and helped dead people vote. I worked on the Kennedy campaign in 1960, as a student helper, so I'm not a right-winger.

But I know a phony and a hypocrit when I see one!

As for my beer drinking, I have a couple of beers a week, mostly in the summer, but that comment is something I expect out of people who resort to cheap shots in place of honest discussion.

[Dragon]

national average electricity usage is one of those statistics thats pretty much useless. The US is too large and covers too many types of climate zones to be able to use a national average as a legitimate comparison tool.

[haypops]

In 2007, Gore came under criticism from the conservative think tank Tennessee Center for Policy Research, which the Tennessee Department of Revenue does not consider to be "a legitimate group". ^[17][18] The organization issued a report which said that during August 2006 Gore burned through 22,619 kilowatt-hours at his house — more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year.^[19]

<snip>

There have been a number of responses to this claim. TIME stated that the Tennessee Center for Policy Research claimed to have gotten "its figures from Nashville Electric Service. But company spokeswoman Laurie Parker said the utility never got a request from the policy center and never gave it any information." ^[21]TIME further quoted Kalee Kreider, a spokesperson for Gore, as saying that the source of the energy is green energy.^[21]WKRN-TV reported that the Gore family obtains their power from the Nashville Electric Service's "renewable energy initiative", The Green Power Switch program ^[22] which depends upon "wind, solar, and methane gas." ^[23]The Detroit Free Press further noted that "Gore purchased 108 blocks of 'green power' for each of the past three months, according to a summary of the bills. That’s a total of $432 a month Gore paid extra for solar or other renewable energy sources.The green power Gore purchased is equivalent to recycling 2.48 million aluminum cans or 286,092 pounds of newspaper, according to comparison figures on NES’s Web site." ^[20] The figure of 108 blocks of green power per month corresponds^[22] to 16,200 kilowatt-hours of electricity per month, Al Gore's average monthly use for 2005.

Keith Olbermann at MSNBC reported that the Gore home includes offices for both Gore and his wife and 'special security measures' making it unrepresentative of what the average US home consumes. Additionally, the green power purchased by the Gores increased the cost of their electricity by "$5,893, more than 50 percent, in order to minimize carbon pollution."^[24]

[ellives]

[...snipped...]

As for my beer drinking, I have a couple of beers a week, mostly in the summer, but that comment is something I expect out of people who resort to cheap shots in place of honest discussion.

Oh come on now. It was a friendly jab on a friendly site. Let's keep it that way. How would anybody here really know how much beer you drink, if any at all?

Let's keep the discussion going on an even keel. I think it's great quality discussion and important for us all to keep each other honest. We all know there's not enough of the honesty part of the discussion in Washington.