V12 Coming..... Lutz says so....

[97regalGS]

Displacement can easily vary beyond 'a + a = b'.

shouldn't it be 'a + a = 2a'??

[Kennyboy]

Its going to be amazing.

[97regalGS]

My solution to the exercise is to let the CTS go upmarket where it appears to be headed anyway. Introduce a next generation Northstar V8 as an option for 2009 when that engine is ready, as well as the next gen V-series. Do a V6 hybrid in 2010. A coupe/convertible are natural introductions in 2009/10. Make the most of the good press of this car and broaden the market appeal with wise product selections and price points like Audi/BMW/Mercedes, but be sure to undercut them by a few G's if possible like Lexus/Infiniti....after all, they are the market leaders, not you. Lexus spent years undercutting the competition on price while making outstanding product.

As far as the STS is concerned, either rebadge the car on the upcoming S-class fighter that's being talked about, or let the nameplate die. I would give the current car a live through 2008 and withdraw it from the market in 2009 when the CTS gets a V8 option.

A high end sedan would have to compete in size and features versus the BMW 7/Audi A8/Mercedes S550. Price it against the Lexus LS. Design a vehicle that will compete against these car's replacements, not the current stuff on the market (think ahead here). Think ahead about a large superluxury coupe on a shortened wheelbase like the BMW 6/Mercedes CL...best to design for it now than make the same mistake that you did with the CTS a decade ago. Introduce V8, V12 engines as options. A V-series is certainly doable so think ahead. Make the business case but spare no expense in making it right. I like the name FTS.

A small sedan will be a challenge for Cadillac, mostly in pricing so not to canabalize other divisions. I do think it's possible. A suitable RWD platform would need to be found...possible a shortened Zeta, using much of the work being done for the Camaro. Make a distinct difference between it and the CTS in terms of size and styling, but don't make it look cheap. Offer the V6 (maybe two sizes). Do a small-block Chevy V-series later on at or below a price point of the old CTS-V (which will be more expensive anyway). Pour as much money as you can in the handling equation since the BMW 3 series is the obvious benchmark. And do a coupe, PLEASE! A wagon will be needed, at least for Europe, a small SUV would be better here. The B-class name could remain but I might rebadge it to differentiate it from the current product in Europe that noone cares about anyway.

The XLR needs serious work. Try to make the next one not look like it's the Vette's red headed stepchild. Don't accept a folding roof design that clearly is behind the competition in speed and luggage room. The interior was once "the best interior Cadillac had ever done". Now it's painfully behind the 2008 CTS, 2007 SRX and even the 'Slade. Rip it out and start over. Get better/ slightly wider tires. Never do a study "cobranding" experiment like you did with Bvlgari...it looks dumb every time you look at the dash. And try to see if the Vette plant can make you a steel body. Try to see if Holden can make that V12 it's designing for you fit under the hood. And please deliver by 2009 or 2009 1/2, at least for the V8 base model.

SRX: More crossover, less truck. Much like it's CTS cousin, it needs a wide variety or trim levels, engines and choices. A V-series should be considered. Better mileage is mandatory...and if Saturn can have a hybrid crossover, than so can Cadillac.

Escalade: Two words...hybrid and V12. They both need to happen.

The DTS is the odd duck of the bunch, but also extremely important. It's still a best seller for Caddy's over 60 Deville buyers crowd, and one of Caddy's best selling cars, period. It is the dominent car for the livery and funeral coach business. I've heard people argue for keeping it or doing away with it for years. First things first, can you convince the over 60 crowd to buy someting else? I think you can. I see a lot of little old ladies in Nashville driving CTS's that used to be Deville owners. The next CTS will be a much better car all around.

Here are the choices you have to make in keeping the DTS:

1. Keep it fresh and keep the quality control high.

2. Limit the trim levels and keep it to one engine choice.

3. No V-series.

4. Accept the financials and keep the car as a cash-cow.

For killing the car:

1. Give your customers plenty of time to switch to other products. Let the car run its course after 2010 when the FTS bows...heck, you might keep it around for an additional year for transistion.

2. Work with the coach builders to get a FTS commercial chassis car stripped of many of the hyper-expensive amenities to keep it affordable to their customers.

3. Make a version just for livery customers that's priced for them and not sold to anybody else....either that or just cede the market to Lincoln and Chrysler (300).

Just my 2 cents...or two dollars as it were.

some interesting thoughts. let me add a dose of reality, or perceived reality based on the expected product decisions coming out of Cadillac over the next few years. this is not FACT, just tidbits I've picked up along the way.

1. DTS remaining FWD - all indications are that the G platform dies in a couple of years as Lucerne and DTS move to RWD

2. Future of STS/DTS - naming aside, both cars die in a few years. they are likely to be replaced by an ETS (my name to try to avoid confusion of the STS/DTS names), which rides on Zeta and is assembled in Oshawa. (my opinion says it keeps the DTS name)

3. SRX dies in a few more years.

4. CTS coupe debuts when SRX dies

5. BRX - built on TE replaces SRX in the lineup

6. 2008 CTS will not fit the current NS engine. hence the 2009 CTS-V will run an LSx.

7. Supposedly some UV8 is in development to replace the NS. (that's probably what was in the SRX mule with ports)TBD if it will fit in the CTS engine bay. it would need tidier packaging than the NS.

8. Alpha Cadillac debuts if program is approved. Name? BTS? carries variations - coupe, wagon etc

9. New ULS. runs the UV8 and V12. Not sure of platform. Zeta seems unlikely. Maybe Sigma2??

10. XLR - no idea. Needs some serious work to play with the SL500

So, 2010/11 the lineup looks like

BTS-alpha

CTS-sigma

ETS-zeta (probably keeps the name DTS)

FTS-(ULS on sigma2)

XLR

BRX

Escalade

is this the ideal product mix? who knows. but Cadillac is NOT an independent company. it is part of GM and must live within the constraints that places on them as a brand.

[Northstar]

97regal - I think you meant CTS wagon in #4.

The Cadillac lineup should looks something like this sometime in the 2010-2012 timeframe:

"BLS" - Alpha platform; coupe, convert, sedan

CTS - Sigma platform; coupe, sedan, wagon

DTS/STS - Zeta platform; sedan only

"ULS" - Likely a stretched Sigma, but could be a stretched Zeta, at this point it is up in the air; short and long wheelbase sedans

XLR - Y-Body; unfortunately, it will likely not see many updates until the NG, and there isn't much word on when that is coming

BRX - TE platform; 5-passenger crossover

Escalade - similar to currently; needs a hybrid powertrain

"LRX" - possible Lambda-based crossover, though I hope it doesn't happen as I see no need for it with Enclave around. I would rather see a stretched TE-based model if they think they need something above the BRX that isn't named "Escalade."

I don't see a big CL-like coupe coming anytime soon. There's no need and they should focus on an XLR that can compete with the SL first. The CTS should move up, but not offer a non-V V8 model. 300HP is more than adequate, and how many 550i's, GS430's, M45's, etc. do you see running around anyways compared to 530i's, GS350's, M35's, etc.? Not many. Let those who want a V8 move up to the V8 ULS.

[97regalGS]

97regal - I think you meant CTS wagon in #4.

The Cadillac lineup should looks something like this sometime in the 2010-2012 timeframe:

"BLS" - Alpha platform; coupe, convert, sedan

CTS - Sigma platform; coupe, sedan, wagon

DTS/STS - Zeta platform; sedan only

"ULS" - Likely a stretched Sigma, but could be a stretched Zeta, at this point it is up in the air; short and long wheelbase sedans

XLR - Y-Body; unfortunately, it will likely not see many updates until the NG, and there isn't much word on when that is coming

BRX - TE platform; 5-passenger crossover

Escalade - similar to currently; needs a hybrid powertrain

"LRX" - possible Lambda-based crossover, though I hope it doesn't happen as I see no need for it with Enclave around. I would rather see a stretched TE-based model if they think they need something above the BRX that isn't named "Escalade."

I don't see a big CL-like coupe coming anytime soon. There's no need and they should focus on an XLR that can compete with the SL first. The CTS should move up, but not offer a non-V V8 model. 300HP is more than adequate, and how many 550i's, GS430's, M45's, etc. do you see running around anyways compared to 530i's, GS350's, M35's, etc.? Not many. Let those who want a V8 move up to the V8 ULS.

northie I think you meant 'Estate' not wagon! :AH-HA_wink:

[dimitri0917]

GM shouldnt whore out Zeta so much.... All I hear is zeta zeta GMT900 zeta lambda zeta zeta kappa zeta zeta zeta ZETA!

I thot Zeta was gonna be cool for America, with the Camaro, G8 and Impala. But now it's ppl callin for ULS, DTS, Lucerne and more Buicks, a big Opel and subsequently Saturn, GTO , Firebird...

What happened to Zeta being this exotic RWD platform? GM should globalize, but oversaturation is not the key.

[hyperv6]

The new Autoweek is out and the new Cadillac V12 sedan concept is just what they need to do.

I do not have the photos's but it looks like a excellent 16 update and would be a styling killer compared to the high end BMW and Benz.

Not a lot of details yet but he car sets a great future for Caddy. This must be the world concept for NY they have not anounced.....Yet!

[Northstar]

Since when was Zeta an exotic platform? It's been called "Sigma Mass," "Volume RWD," etc. Sigma is the "exotic" platform, if there is one.

Originally the "Sigma Mass" list was something like this I believe:

Camaro

Monte Carlo

Impala

Grand Prix

GTO

RWD Buick sedan

RWD Buick coupe

Now we're getting the Impala, Camaro, Lucerne, G8, maybe DTS, and we don't know about anything else...

[ZL-1]

Since when was Zeta an exotic platform? It's been called "Sigma Mass," "Volume RWD," etc. Sigma is the "exotic" platform, if there is one.

I don't know if what I'm about to write is complete crap from an engineering standpoint, but financially, if the added cost (engineering plus manufacturing) of changing some of the "Basic-Zeta attributes" into "Premium-Zeta attributes" (think suspension components, strictly as an example) can be easily ammortized by the pricing premium associated with selling a Cadillac versus selling a Chevrolet, it would make perfect sense for Zeta (or 'Global RWD', which is a much fancier sounding name) being used in everything, from the Chevy Impala and Camaro to a top-of-the-line V12 Cadillac DTS pushing $100k.

It'd be interesting for the engineers or engineering-inclined among us to comment on the engineering cost issues of the 'one-platform-fits-all' approach.

Edited March 26, 2007 by ZL-1

[ponchoman49]

I can see this selling like about 100 cars a year!

[Sevenfeet]

some interesting thoughts. let me add a dose of reality, or perceived reality based on the expected product decisions coming out of Cadillac over the next few years. this is not FACT, just tidbits I've picked up along the way.

1. DTS remaining FWD - all indications are that the G platform dies in a couple of years as Lucerne and DTS move to RWD

2. Future of STS/DTS - naming aside, both cars die in a few years. they are likely to be replaced by an ETS (my name to try to avoid confusion of the STS/DTS names), which rides on Zeta and is assembled in Oshawa. (my opinion says it keeps the DTS name)

3. SRX dies in a few more years.

4. CTS coupe debuts when SRX dies

5. BRX - built on TE replaces SRX in the lineup

6. 2008 CTS will not fit the current NS engine. hence the 2009 CTS-V will run an LSx.

7. Supposedly some UV8 is in development to replace the NS. (that's probably what was in the SRX mule with ports)TBD if it will fit in the CTS engine bay. it would need tidier packaging than the NS.

8. Alpha Cadillac debuts if program is approved. Name? BTS? carries variations - coupe, wagon etc

9. New ULS. runs the UV8 and V12. Not sure of platform. Zeta seems unlikely. Maybe Sigma2??

10. XLR - no idea. Needs some serious work to play with the SL500

So, 2010/11 the lineup looks like

BTS-alpha

CTS-sigma

ETS-zeta (probably keeps the name DTS)

FTS-(ULS on sigma2)

XLR

BRX

Escalade

is this the ideal product mix? who knows. but Cadillac is NOT an independent company. it is part of GM and must live within the constraints that places on them as a brand.

Given what you've laid out, I don't think we're that far off from each other. My perspective was from a cold b-school strategy analysis, of course without the benefit of financials , marketing or ability for factories to produce any of this.

So here's my replies:

1. I think I said the DTS would probably survive for a few years in the current form. I gave alternatives to keep it or ditch it.

2. Will a future "DTS/ETS" go RWD with Zeta? Certainly possible, but again, what market is such a car being pitched for? Will Caddy continue to try to sell a DTS to the 60 plus-golfing-car rental crowd? Is there room for two full sized vehicles...one for competiting against the Town Car and 300 versus the other one that competes against the Germans/Japanese?

3. SRX: Agreed, and now that I think about it, the name, like STS will probably die too and not be reused.

4. CTS Coupe: Hopefully sooner than that, but considering news reports that they are still waiting to green-light this thing, 2010 may end up being a realistic launch date.

5. BRX. Hopefully will be larger than the BLS sedan..not that there isn't a market for a small SUV, but the midsized model is the sweet spot in the market.

6. I didn't say the current NS would fit in the 2008 CTS's engine bay. But with a new V8 debuting in 2009 to replace NS (there's already been a press release on this), I'd be real surprised if the CTS couldn't squeeze that between the fenders. The engine for the CTS-V is still an open question, but I wouldn't be surprised to see another overhead valve engine.

7. See #6. Again, I think the CTS could live very nicely in the midsize sport sedan category dominated by the poster children of the BMW 5 and Mercedes E as well as the Infiniti M and Lexus GS. What the CTS needs that it doesn't have is a non-V-series V8 option (380-420 hp) plus an interior upgrade to go with it to further justify the extra cost (maybe some other wood choices). So you'd end up with a low end of a 255 HP V6, the 300 HP V6, a 400 HP V8 and finally a 500-600 HP V-series hot rod. You can easily span mid 30's to 60 grand for these options choices.

8. Agreed.

9. Again, we know too little about it and maybe even GM is still having these kinds of discussions internally. Hopefully they are better equipped than we are to speculate.

10. Agreed on the XLR. I think it's certainly possible, but it needs a new style, interior, retracting roof and new V8 engine. Chassis & suspension are ok with some minor tweaks. A steel body would be nice to separate it further from the Vette.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Sevenfeet

[MyerShift]

Man, tonight, all the debating seems to be so complicated and over thought. It could possibly be much simpler than some of what is suggested here, although they are all too, plausible.

[loki]

just curious, if it hasn't been mentioned.... could it be a diesel v12? about the same displacement as the duramax... 6 liter range.