Where are the GM high mileage cars?

[ellives]

Ya know.... I'm one of GM's biggest fans... always have been.... and I love the new product they're coming out with - love the '08 CTS... the new Malibu looks great... GMT900's... can't beat 'em... but I *really* have to wonder when they're going to come out with a product that is "high mileage" competitive. It's time to take on ToyMotor where they live and breathe.

When I look at the new mileage ratings (and exclude the Prius for the time being) there isn't much there to compete with the likes of the high mileage product ToyMotor sells. GM needs something that beats the Corolla. I don't care how they do it - import it -- build it at home -- or a combination thereof but this is where Toyota got there toehold and they need to be taken out of the game there.

I hope they have a plan for this segment.

Any comments from the masses?

[gm4life]

Seriously I don't know the Aveo and Aura Greenline are a start I guess.

[Flybrian]

One of the most real-word efficient GM engines goes away very, very soon.

[Drew Dowdell]

One of the most real-word efficient GM engines goes away very, very soon.

The Olds 350D?

[ellives]

One of the most real-word efficient GM engines goes away very, very soon.

OK Fly. I'll bite. What is it?

[FAPTurbo]

OK Fly. I'll bite. What is it?

t3h 1r0NduK3!

[Flybrian]

Oh, I meant real-world and its the 3800. One of the cleanest V6s on the market, too. Look it up.

[pow]

Oh, I meant real-world and its the 3800. One of the cleanest V6s on the market, too. Look it up.

The 3.5 in the Impala and Monte is a PZEV, too. Other PZEV six-cylinders include the E350, 328i, and Fly's-favorite Outlander.

[AxelTheRed]

Oh, I meant real-world and its the 3800. One of the cleanest V6s on the market, too. Look it up.

Unfortunately Powertrain North won't be getting any new assignments after the 3800, thus completely ending Buick's presence in Flint. Of course the factory will be about 104 years old when it finally closes and knowing GM's neverending commitment to Flint, we won't be getting a new factory to replace it.

Edited March 21, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[balthazar]

So Axel- are you saying 104-yrs is nothing, but 110; now we're talking 'commitment'? Just curious...

[AxelTheRed]

So Axel- are you saying 104-yrs is nothing, but 110; now we're talking 'commitment'? Just curious...

I was talking about GM's commitment to Flint as a whole. Powertrain North will close in a year or two and take another 2,600 jobs with it (on top of however many people will lose their jobs this year when Flint East shuts down) and knowing how things tend to go in Flint, there won't be a shiny new state-of-the-art factory to take its place.

See, Powertrain South is our newest facility and everyone loves to point at that and say "Look at how much they care" without realizing that the next newest plant in Flint is Flint Tool and Dye, the very last building left of Chevrolet...and its forty years old now and so insignificant that it could be closed tomorrow without so much as a "whoopsie-daisy" from General Motors.

How long the factory stayed open is pretty irrelevant next to the fact that its just another one of the seven plants that have closed or are scheduled to close around here that have taken 70,000+ jobs out of the area. One new factory in the last forty years only shows minimal commitment when you look at Lansing and see that they've had three factories open up since 2000.

Edited March 21, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[thegriffon]

I guess replacing thew 3800 with a new production site for the 3.6 dual-VVT shows GM doesn't care huh? Oh, and I see the 3.6 gets better mileage than the 3800 in the LaCrosse too.

[ellives]

Oh, I meant real-world and its the 3800. One of the cleanest V6s on the market, too. Look it up.

It's nice the 3800 is efficient but it's not a competitor for the 4-banger in the Corolla as a high-mileage product. GM needs something competitve in this segment. This is not a place where unfortunately "bigger, better, faster" works.

[CARBIZ]

I agree with the above argument for the mid and full size card segments, but the point about the Corolla is well taken. The Aveo/Optra should get better gas mileage than they do, both on paper and in the real world. The Cobalt actually gets decent mileage in the real world, which closed the gap with the Corolla, but the Corolla/Civic still look better on paper.

In the small car segment and the so-called hybrid segment appearances are EVERYTHING. People want to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves.

Of course, the people who are actually doing something for the environment are taking the bus or bicycle to work..............

[thegriffon]

In Europe Opel/Vauxhall have Eco models, and VW Bluemotion—mechanically the same, but with an aero kit specifically designed to increase fuel economy (marginally). It's an idea with merit in the US, for Saturn and Chevrolet at least. A range of individually cheap options would also help, such as a vehicle start-stop system using the BAS, but not the hybrid system as an option on all models. Offer the 2.0 Turbo DI in midsize cars to maximize fuel economy, and even offer it in the rwd Impala as the Eco choice. With 260 hp and better economy than the 2.4 HO, what's not to like?

[ellives]

I agree with the above argument for the mid and full size card segments, but the point about the Corolla is well taken. The Aveo/Optra should get better gas mileage than they do, both on paper and in the real world. The Cobalt actually gets decent mileage in the real world, which closed the gap with the Corolla, but the Corolla/Civic still look better on paper.

In the small car segment and the so-called hybrid segment appearances are EVERYTHING. People want to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves.

Of course, the people who are actually doing something for the environment are taking the bus or bicycle to work..............

Your point about "paper" is quite correct. ToyMotor does a nice job of optimizing their results for EPA testing. GM could learn a trick or two there. I just can't accept or believe ToyMotor's engineering team is better than GM. Does that make any sense? Engineers are usually very competitive and I just don't see it.

[thegriffon]

I agree with the above argument for the mid and full size card segments, but the point about the Corolla is well taken. The Aveo/Optra should get better gas mileage than they do, both on paper and in the real world. The Cobalt actually gets decent mileage in the real world, which closed the gap with the Corolla, but the Corolla/Civic still look better on paper.

In the small car segment and the so-called hybrid segment appearances are EVERYTHING. People want to feel warm and fuzzy about themselves.

Of course, the people who are actually doing something for the environment are taking the bus or bicycle to work..............

Don't forget the train. Whether it uses electrical power or diesel-electric, commuter trains are an efficient, convenient alternative to driving. New Mexico's RailRunner even uses B20 Biodiesel. Last year more than 20 million passengers commuted to work by train in California alone, and unlike driving, on the train you can use your cellphone, laptop, read a book or newspaper and even sleep (as many people do, both to and from work). Unlike Sydney rail travel in most US cities is in my experience reliable, comfortable and dirt cheap. In many cities hopping on a train is free in downtown areas were parking in particular can be impossible to find.

[turbo200]

Oh, I meant real-world and its the 3800. One of the cleanest V6s on the market, too. Look it up.

urban markets in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago etc are real world markets where 4 cyl engines like those in the Civic and Corolla are successful thanks to their great efficiency in city driving, which for those of us who live in these markets is real world driving.

The Corolla is a huge success story all unto itself, despite what many on this site deride as sluggish performance, its roominess, compact exterior size, decent quality interior trim, low price, legendary reliability, and isolated/comfortable ride/handling are a product success story GM and the rest of the Americans fail to grasp. As everyday transportation, the only real thing it lacks is a little more potency [see Civic] and more emotional appeal [see Civic].

The lack of a real high mileage engine in the Crapeo [to take a cue from the derisions on this site of Japanese cars] and a stand out design do no justice to the Chevy brand. Rename Aveo the Nova [one of the only instances I would recommend a name change since Aveo just sounds cheap, anonymous, and feminine] give it a great wrapper, keep the interior high quality, and give it a good powertrain combo.

Edited March 21, 2007 by turbo200

[CARBIZ]

Well, Turbo, I hate to burst your acid-induced bubble but I drive the Corollas and Cobalts nearly every day and there is no competition: the Cobalt bitch slaps the Corolla in handling, performance and ride. I am comparing the most popular lower models. I will credit the base Corolla (particuarly the cloth seats) as being somewhat nicer to look at inside, but the 1.8 is awful, unless coupled with the manual shift and since in the real world most vehicles are equipped with the automatic, that is all that is important. Cowl shake in a moder car is unacceptable and I have witnessed that in the new Corolla on uneven pavement (and, boy, do we have a lot of that around here this time of year!)

I have not ONCE had a customer choose the Corolla over the Cobalt when I have marched them over to our sister Toyota store and drove them in it in a head to head comparison, coupled, of course, with the necessary antidote to the daily BS and crap that CR and others print. Throw in the fact that (in this market) the Corolla is $1,800 more in an apple to apple comparison price and I would say the Cobalt is a damned bargain.

The Civic is probably on the other end of the scale: for another $1,800 over the Corolla I would grant that it is superior (in many respects) to both vehicles, but PRICE does matter in this segment. The Civic's sales are DOWN 20% so far this year in Canada, largely due to increased incentives on both the Cobalt and Mazda 3, but also because the arrogance over at the Honda dealers is beggining to grate on some people's nerves.

I realize the Corolla is the oldest in this segment, but it has become an embarassment. The only reason it sells, IMO, is the drug haze spewed out from the crap over at CR and others. The Mazda 3 and Civic are much more worthy contenders in this segment. I don't think any of those three (Civic, Cobalt, 3) are bad vehicles - they all do different things very wel.

The Corolla only exists so that BMW-driving spawn can protect their inheritances by badgering their elderly parents into buying one.

[haypops]

Rename Aveo the Nova [one of the only instances I would recommend a name change since Aveo just sounds cheap, anonymous, and feminine]

I thought every one decided that Nova meant no go in Spanish - a large and growing part of the customer base. I think that you are correct about the power train. The Griffon has detailed what seems like a dizzying array of smaller Ectoec engines and engine families.

[A Horse With No Name]

The Mazda 3 is the class of the small car segment, followed by the Cobalt and perhaps the Civic and the Rabbit. What G.M. needs to do is market the Cobalt. I've yet to meet an unhappy Cobalt owner. We just need to get Cobalts into peoples hands.

Chris

[ellives]

The Mazda 3 is the class of the small car segment, followed by the Cobalt and perhaps the Civic and the Rabbit. What G.M. needs to do is market the Cobalt. I've yet to meet an unhappy Cobalt owner. We just need to get Cobalts into peoples hands.

Chris

OK - I'll buy one and let you know.

[2005 EquinoxLS]

I have gotten a Cobalt a few times while the Equinox was in the shop and I must say it is such an improvement over the Cavalier that it isnt even measurable. Cant compare to a Corolla because I havent driven one but it is nice. A little small for my taste but I will give credit where credit is due. It rides like a larger car and the engine is as quiet as a lot of larger cars.

[Bizz]

I guess replacing thew 3800 with a new production site for the 3.6 dual-VVT shows GM doesn't care huh? Oh, and I see the 3.6 gets better mileage than the 3800 in the LaCrosse too.

when my 3800 was making enough power to push, well pull, my GP into the 12's, my mileage dropped to 28-30 on the highway. but, it was running a bit rich so i didnt mind.

my aura has achieved its 29mpg rating but once in its 7k miles (29.1). that was at 85mph in 65 and 70mph zones rushing home to STL from nashville, an event unlikely to be repeated.

i like my 3.6. its fine, does its job. nice and smooth in the upper RPMS where it will spend 1% of its life operating. it replacing the 3.8 shows GM cares about image, not necessarily performance. vital today, i know, but the 3.6 isnt the clear winner over the 3800 to me.

i just dont understand why the L32 couldnt be used as a base engine for full size trucks or as an option for NG small pickups. the output of the 3800 was only limited by the transaxle behind, well next to and under, it. reliably producing 280-300hp and 300+tq is nothing for the 3800. sure the SC adds some cost to the engine, but i bet the extra production for use in trucks and the higher profit margin of the truck side of the business would offset much of that. more power, more torque, more mileage.

in todays world, i guess, pushrods have no place in family cars. but, i see no reason to kill the 3800 when its virtues exceed the 4300 and 4800.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Bizz

[cmattson]

I agree with you Griff: The turbo DI-2.0 appears to be a very sweet motor - long on both hp and mileage. It needs more applications than the Solstice & Sky, IMO. An even smaller displacement (1.6l?) with a similar setup would be even more appealing: 200-210hp with even better gas mileage. Mate it with a stick and bolt it into an Astra -- that'd be a fun combo platter -> all with excellent gas mileage.

As for gas mileage, GM is losing the publicity war. GM needs to get something more economical into the Cobalt and especially the Aveo. There's no reason the Aveo shouldn't get at least 40+mpg on the freeway. GM's got small displacement 4-bangers all-over Europe. How about bringing something stateside? I know it's not quite that simple -- but if GM is serious about changing public perception, then the job's gotta get done.

[GXT]

As for gas mileage, GM is losing the publicity war. GM needs to get something more economical into the Cobalt and especially the Aveo. There's no reason the Aveo shouldn't get at least 40+mpg on the freeway. GM's got small displacement 4-bangers all-over Europe. How about bringing something stateside? I know it's not quite that simple -- but if GM is serious about changing public perception, then the job's gotta get done.

If they are losing the publicity war, it is because they have no weapons with which to fight it.

While it may be true that Toyota and GM are duking it out to see who can be the most efficient of the least efficient, in terms of the most efficient of the most efficient GM isn't competivie with Honda, let alone Toyota.

I can't find the paper anymore, but it had the average fuel economy in various countries in the world. I believe the US was just over 10L/100KM. Canada was in the mid 9s. Australia the mid 8s. And Japan was in the mid 5s. It is no wonder the Japanese do so well at fuel efficient cars.

[Flybrian]

The Corolla...its roominess...isolated/comfortable ride/handling

No, no, and no. Drive one lately? When one drive a real car, its hard to accept something like a present-day Corolla with its tippy stance, uncomfortable low-padded seats, noisy donut tires, and horrible bodyroll. A mid-90s Civic handles better.

[ellives]

If they are losing the publicity war, it is because they have no weapons with which to fight it.

While it may be true that Toyota and GM are duking it out to see who can be the most efficient of the least efficient, in terms of the most efficient of the most efficient GM isn't competivie with Honda, let alone Toyota.

I can't find the paper anymore, but it had the average fuel economy in various countries in the world. I believe the US was just over 10L/100KM. Canada was in the mid 9s. Australia the mid 8s. And Japan was in the mid 5s. It is no wonder the Japanese do so well at fuel efficient cars.

I'm not in total agreement with the "no weapons" comment but it was the general idea of my initial statement. For those people who are primarily concerned with gas mileage and look at the EPA (old) numbers and see the Corolla with 41 mpg highway, they will jump on the ToyMotor bandwagon immediately. Why wouldn't they? There's no risk on their part. It's the best mileage in the segment and reliability isn't a concern. The only decision factor not in ToyMotor's favor MIGHT be price but in this segment there's isn't much leeway on the pricing while still keeping your hand in the game.

GM needs to figure out how to get a product on the market that is competitive with the Corolla and hopefully beats it. Period. This product was ToyMotor's "in" to the market and it continues to be one of the main reasons GM isn't winning the battle.

[occupant]

I see the latest generation Corolla 5-speed with 32 city, 41 highway.

The Saturn S-Series with 5-speed got 29 city, 40 highway. No Cobalt, Cavalier, Sunfire, G5, or Prizm has come close.

The Geo/Chevy Metro is about it, and in its final 2000 year, the 4-cylinder/5-speed Metro was only rated 36/42, down from 39/43 in 98-99. And that's smaller than an Echo or Tercel, so it's not a fair comparison.

Now if you want to talk gas mileage, cars in the mid-80s did WAY better than today's cars. Take the 1985 models of the popular small cars, with standard manual transmissions (4-speed if available, 5-speed if not)

26/35 Chevrolet Cavalier (and other 2.0/4-speed J-bodies)

28/34 Chevrolet Chevette (and Pontiac T1000)

30/37 Chevrolet Nova (and Toyota Corolla)

38/43 Chevrolet Spectrum (and Isuzu I-Mark)

47/53 Chevrolet Sprint

37/41 Dodge Colt (and Mitsubishi Mirage and Plymouth Colt)

30/40 Dodge Omni (and Charger, Plymouth Horizon and Turismo)

34/44 Ford Escort (1.6L early) (and Mercury Lynx)

33/43 Ford Escort (1.9L late) (and Mercury Lynx)

38/42 Honda Civic

49/54 Honda CRX HF

31/37 Nissan Sentra

34/40 Renault Alliance/Encore (1.4L)

31/36 Subaru Standard

35/39 Toyota Tercel

27/34 Volkswagen Golf (and Jetta)

Now I don't know about everyone else, but I was perfectly happy with a 4-speed Mercury Lynx in high school. Getting high 30s for mileage was nice compared to the '75 Cutlass I had before it, but it was definitely NOT as cool to drive and rode like a buckboard.

[CARBIZ]

No, no, no - I'm with Fly. The Corolla is crap. The Cobalt will run circles around it, literally. If I had a gun to my head, I would say the Civic is marginally the leader in this category because I happen to like the look of it and it comes in a 2 door as well, the Mazda 3 would be tied with the Cobalt for ride/handling, features and choices. The Corolla isn't even in the same league. Sorry. If the Corolla didn't have the veil of Toyota over it, it would sell like the Sentra.

Now, when you factor in price and REAL world maintenance, insurance and gas...well, the Cobalt wins handily. Forget about the 5 spd., nobody buys them. GM is being hugely aggressive (at least in this market) with the Cobalt and it is $20 a month on a lease cheaper than a similar Corolla, $40 cheaper than the Civic, and that isn't even factoring in the $200, 3 month trips to the dealer that the Japanese demand. Oil life monitor, anyone?

And Honda dealers consider Canada "severe service," so throw out the owner's manual.

Disclaimer: I can sell you a Corolla or a Cobalt. Try and guess which one I'd rather you lease/buy?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

whats up with the Aveo being rated same gas mileage as a Cobalt under the new regulations... thats crap! aveo should be getting much better gas mileage!

[CARBIZ]

My understanding is that the new regulations are getting much closer to REAL WORLD driving conditions and I can say from experience that both the Optra and Aveo are disappointing. Anyone concerned about fuel mileage (that doesn't drive like my great aunt) should look to the Cobalt over either of those vehicles. Small engines (Civic, Prius) look great on paper, but real world driving (such as - 10 C weather) kicks the crap out of the EPA estimates. I mean, how can a 1.6 l. engine heat the cabin anyway?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

naw, my buddy has a civic, drives it pretty hard and it still gets great gas mileage, even with the AC on.

but the aveo... GM really needs to replace that engine!

[ellives]

naw, my buddy has a civic, drives it pretty hard and it still gets great gas mileage, even with the AC on.

but the aveo... GM really needs to replace that engine!

... and I suppose your "buddy" operates under controlled conditions, with carefully calibrated measurement devices.... and what would you define as "great" mileage? Everything is relative.

[BuddyP]

Where are you guys seeing the new ratings? I assume these are the '08 ratings??

[Intrepidation]

My understanding is that the new regulations are getting much closer to REAL WORLD driving conditions and I can say from experience that both the Optra and Aveo are disappointing. Anyone concerned about fuel mileage (that doesn't drive like my great aunt) should look to the Cobalt over either of those vehicles. Small engines (Civic, Prius) look great on paper, but real world driving (such as - 10 C weather) kicks the crap out of the EPA estimates. I mean, how can a 1.6 l. engine heat the cabin anyway?

The Prizm's 1.6 makes good heat.

It also gets 40+ mph highway and 30-ish mpg city.

[CARBIZ]

Is that a slushbox or 5 spd manual? The 4 spd automatic in the Optra/Aveo is not a GM tranny and they are problematic. The shifts are sudden and surprising. The Aveo with a 5 spd gets much better mileage than the automatic. Part of the reason the Impala and other GM vehicles have faired decently, compared to their competition is the transmission is very efficient and the programming is intuitive. Not so with the Aveo/Optra.

[CARBIZ]

also, it isn't a matter of making good heat or not. Of course a 1.6 litre, aluminium engine is going to heat up fast and blow warm air quickly. Rather the problem is the amount of thermal energy taken to do so. I have taken tank readings between, say May (no a/c and no heat) versus January and you will lose on the order of 50 km on a tank, due to thermal loss. I wonder how well the Prius heats up on a cold Canadian winter day?

[ZL-1]

Any comments from the masses?

They're here in Europe, sold as diesel engined Opels: think Opel Corsa 1.3L diesel as an example. But that's just my European perception of what high mileage is. For your average US resident driving a Chevy Suburban, 30mpg is high mileage...