Grampa Flint Just Cannot Get Enough of Volt

[Z-06]

Clickety

Some of his excerpts.

I think that no one at GM should say anything that sounds like a promise - even with a disclaimer - when it comes to miraculous fuel-saving vehicles. The company has talked too much through the years. Talk is cheap.

Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver magazine remembers a GM president promising an electric car in production by 1980 (I remember a Ford vice chairman promising one, too). Bedard says that GM's promises are like bouncing rubber checks, and we should not trust folks that pass out bouncing checks.

"What is it about battery-powered cars that make dreamers, and the press, and dreamers in the press, go full-court cuckoo for them?" Bedard writes.

He lost his originality here. Quoted another goof ball Bedard from C & D.

Lutz and everyone else at GM should stay away from promising production dates to the press if there is a reasonable probability that the company will not be able to make the deadline. Toyota knows more about exotic batteries that any other automaker in the world. They are working on plug-ins, too. Toyota told me it is going to be a good while before we see the system work. I believe Toyota.

Those comments came right after he was in bed with Sayaka Kobayashi. I honestly think that Toy got caught with their pants off by GM in plug-in race and they are diminishing GM's acheivement.

The trouble is that such lithium-ion battery packs for cars do not exist. Today's hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries and they are not good enough for this plug-in concept. The Toyota Prius, the most popular of all hybrids, can run under electric power alone, but only for short distances on its nickel-metal hydride batteries. The Prius may start under electric power, but it quickly switches over to a small gasoline engine that powers the wheels most of the time. The battery pack also pushes some extra power to the wheels when needed.

He cannot get enough of the Toy, and its jewel of a car.

Propelling 3000 pounds for 40 miles at 65 miles per hour is not the same as powering up a Dell. Some day we may have lithium ion or other exotic battery packs for cars, but it could take many more years to iron out the technical bugs and manufacture such batteries in quantity.

Duh Mr. Wisdomchief. His senility was remarkable in the last para.

I genuinely hope that the Volt becomes a reality in 2010. I will personally eat a print out of all Flint's anti-Volt comments, make a dump and parcel it to his home (I hope he is alive then).

[regfootball]

Goddamn, why the f@#k would any journalist invest this much hate in this.

The manuf that puts out a plug in hybrid first will be rewarded by the market. it's not about what the press thinks. So really, f@#k the press. Let history take its course and if GM makes 2010....excellent, if not, it's their image that suffers again. It's not worth Flint spouting goo about it in March 2007.

All automakers are spewing mythical production dates for hybrids and fuel cells and this and that. Why don't we save up all our emotions until the product hits the street and judge it then? In the meantime, what the hell is wrong with showing a concept to showcase ideas and forward thinking? At least GM is Goddamn trying again. i don't see too many other manuf's trying to push the envelope with this. GM is saying, 'we are leaders committed to this'.

GM knows the payoff to their bank account and image will be huge if they deliver this on time. I have a feeling we'll see it in calendar year 2010. Even if its in crude form and limited numbers.

Edited March 15, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

Jerry Flint and his wife drive the very first hybrid...

[gm4life]

I find this intresting. The Volt is ALOT nicer looking than a Prius!

[haypops]

Personaly I think this New York Times article about the plug in VUE and Volt and the batteries being produced for them by a high tech company of MIT scientist makes Flint look like like a horses ass.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/bu...gewan ted=all

<snip>

A123Systems batteries are different. Yet-Ming Chiang, a professor of materials science and engineering at M.I.T. and a co-founder of A123Systems, described their advantages: “Used in a hybrid vehicle, our batteries deliver faster acceleration than any other batteries of the same size,” Professor Chiang said. “And the chemical stability of the cathode material greatly improves safety as well as extending battery life.”

<snip>

By late 2003, the company had abandoned self-assembly for another, less alchemical but still dramatic technology. In place of cobalt oxide, it used a commonplace substance, iron phosphate, but assembled it in a novel, nano-structure — the particles used were 100 times smaller than conventional oxides and eight orders of magnitude more conductive than conventional phosphates. The new combination offers high power, stability and longevity.

see article for more detail.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Jerry Flint and his wife drive the very first hybrid...

Fred and Wilma must be driving a Holden or Vauxhall, the steering wheel is on the wrong side. I knew I hated that cartoon for some reason!

[GXT]

Actually, plug-in hybrids are already available with A123System's batteries. It is called a "Prius".

You can already buy the converstion kits for the Prius from Hymotion using the A123Systems batteries:

http://www.hymotion.com/index.htm

The Prius kit is $9,500. Range is 30miles (shrinks to ~20 with the AC on high). 5kWh capacity. Cost to charge would be ~$.50 where I live. Assuming 12,000 miles per year and 100% electic operation (which isn't likely with that small a range), cost for electricity would be ~$200 ($300 for the escape). Cost at $3/gallon for a Prius that gets 45MPG would be $800/year. Net savings for the plug-in hybrid is $600/year. It would take 16 years for the system to pay for itself (keep in mind there is only a 2 year warranty).

The interesting thing is that these plug-in hybrids become more cost effective as the batteries get smaller.... until eventually you have a hybrid such as the Prius. The ironic part is some of the loudest Volt proponents are some of the same people that have been maligning the Prius, even though the Prius offers a cost-effectiveness that the Volt could only dream of.

As I said in another post, this is not unique GM technology. GM has no special advantage in this area except for their ability to radically preannounce (which is par for the course when it comes to GM and hybrids). And it most certainly isn't cost-effective technology.

It is time for GM to stop promising and start delivering.

Edited March 16, 2007 by GXT

[balthazar]

>>"GM has no special advantage in this area except for their ability to radically preannounce (which is par for the course when it comes to GM and hybrids). "<<

Nothing beats honda's announcement last year that they'll have a production hydrogen vehicle in 2018 !!!!!

[Mr.Krinkle]

the Prius offers a cost-effectiveness that the Volt could only dream of.

Its all a dream because at this time the Volt does not exist.

The Prius kit is $9,500.

thats putting a lot of faith into something you have no idea how long term reliability will pan out.

It is time for GM to stop promising and start delivering

I agree. Its amazing to me how a company that delivers on something like the z06 has not cracked this nut yet. Unless you consider the buses which stomp the Prius in every way possible. Unfortunately its not as socially cool to say I took a hybrid GM bus to work today.

[thegriffon]

Actually, plug-in hybrids are already available with A123System's batteries. It is called a "Prius".

You can already buy the converstion kits for the Prius from Hymotion using the A123Systems batteries:

http://www.hymotion.com/index.htm

The Prius kit is $9,500. Range is 30miles (shrinks to ~20 with the AC on high). …

Wait a sec—wasn't someone claiming the battery would cost $28K? Can't help thinking that it will cost GM a lot less than $9500 right now, let alone in 3-4 years time.

[zhawk]

Man, does this guy have anything but hatred for anything GM does?

I was happy to see the people at GM bring out a concept like the Volt and then put a timeline to it that isn't sso dang far off in the future that everyone would forget about it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Uh, Sorry gramps. Toyota was beaten to the punch not by GM, but by Tesla Motors.

We’ve combined basic proven lithium ion battery technology with our own unique battery pack design to provide multiple layers of safety. It's light, durable, recyclable, and it is capable of delivering enough power to accelerate the Tesla Roadster from zero to 60 mph in approximately four seconds. Meanwhile, the battery stores enough energy for the vehicle to travel 250 miles without recharging, something no other production electric vehicle in history can claim.

How it Works Edited March 16, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Z-06]

All I think we should say to those naysayers to the volt, is same we said last year about GM going bankrupt, wait for some time.

I honestly think Wags and Lutz are not stupid enough to give a date on the Volt, had they not known some R&D about the battery, with a bad rep already on the company's side (Killing of the Electric Car), they do not want another one.

[Windy-57]

What I hate most about Flint's article is the hypocrisy of it all. He says he doesn't want to hear promises like this, well I have a solution for him...quit asking the questions. You work in the media and depend upon information like this for your livelyhood, don't complain.

I also agree that this is a horrible example of media bias. GM should be getting praised for their efforts to take the lead in fuel efficiency and innovation, but rather someone has to find something negative to say. Still, I think it's good for GM. It's better to have critics that keep you on your toes than asskissers who let you get sloppy.

[RichW5]

Hey guys, it's always good to start the day with a joke. So today we have GXT's sales pitch for the Pee-us.

Considering this is a GM fan site, I would expect some respect for GM, along with the constructive criticism that most of us offer every day. Yet here we have a little troll boy who can never say anything except for Pee-us, Pee-us, Pee-us. Gimme a break. Pee-us cost effective, gimme another break. When you consider the environmental and energy cost of mining nickel for the Pee-us batteries, along with the cost to US taxpayers (tax break for hybrid owners), the Pee-us is nowhere near being cost effective.

While GM has made mistakes in the past, I believe that they are committed to change, especially in the development and production of technologically advanced vehicles. It all takes time and money. Flint has developed a hatred for GM over the years (I wonder why) and would continue to criticise GM if all it's vehicles were perfect. Is it the bulley factor (kick someone while they are down) or just the hate American corporations factor.

If an electric car is in my future, it will be manufactured by GM (or Ford).

[Intrepidation]

If Tesla Motors can come up with a lithium-ion battery, GM can. I love the Tesla Roaster.

[GXT]

Wait a sec—wasn't someone claiming the battery would cost $28K? Can't help thinking that it will cost GM a lot less than $9500 right now, let alone in 3-4 years time.

Yeah, the same person who noticed that this Prius battery is a lot smaller than the one claimed for the Volt.

Definately the batteries will get cheaper. But it will take quite the combination of expensive gas, cheap batteries and cheap electricity to make a car like the volt more cost effective than a hybrid like the Prius.

[Drew Dowdell]

again, some things are about more than just money

[Chicagoland]

The Flintstones pic is reversed, so it looks like a RHD car. Anyone who remembers the show knows it was LHD.

The "press" essentially thinks Toyota is making all Hybrids now, and that they are 99% electric powered. Which of course they make with 'old Japanese magic tricks.'

Not to mention the propaganda flick 'death of the electic car', as if GM is the only company that "should make alll electric cars" and there is no complaining about the fact taht there was never any Asian make electric car at all in the 1990s!

[GXT]

again, some things are about more than just money

I agree. But it has to be reasonable, doesn't it?

Hybrids require a battery change every 100k miles or so. Costs = about $2,000. How many 300k mile Pruises are there out there? $6000 in battery changes to do 300k miles? No thanks.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...st&p=260052

[GXT]

>>"GM has no special advantage in this area except for their ability to radically preannounce (which is par for the course when it comes to GM and hybrids). "<<

Nothing beats honda's announcement last year that they'll have a production hydrogen vehicle in 2018 !!!!!

There is a difference between mitigating expectations and drumming up hype.

The media (and many on this site) are acting like Hydrogen cars are just a few years away. I've read "Hybrids are just a stop-gap for Hydrogen" on this site more than once. Honda, in spite of having a street legal fuel cell car some 4 years ago, and already having leased hydrogen cars starting over two years ago, and likely being the leader in this technology, is saying 2018 to downplay expectations. On the other hand, GM, who hasn't even put out a hybrid sedan, and who's hybrids to date have been completely uncompetitive (perhaps due to the fact that they have been downplaying hybrids and have barely registered a pulse in this 8 year old market), has announced a vehicle which they have no idea when it will ever be feasible.

GM isn't alone in this because they have some unique technology (as we have seen, their technology roadmap involved components already being used in Toyotas and Fords... and probably would be in use in GM vehicles as well if their hybrids weren't so poor), they are alone in this because everyone else knows this isn't feasible. Anyone who can do simple math can demonstrate it. Even GM isn't denying it.

Edited March 16, 2007 by GXT

[SS427]

There is a difference between mitigating expectations and drumming up hype.

The media (and many on this site) are acting like Hydrogen cars are just a few years away. I've read "Hybrids are just a stop-gap for Hydrogen" on this site more than once. Honda, in spite of having a street legal fuel cell car some 4 years ago, and already having leased hydrogen cars starting over two years ago, and likely being the leader in this technology, is saying 2018 to downplay expectations. On the other hand, GM, who hasn't even put out a hybrid sedan, and who's hybrids to date have been completely uncompetitive (perhaps due to the fact that they have been downplaying hybrids and have barely registered a pulse in this 8 year old market), has announced a vehicle which they have no idea when it will ever be feasible.

GM isn't alone in this because they have some unique technology (as we have seen, their technology roadmap involved components already being used in Toyotas and Fords... and probably would be in use in GM vehicles as well if their hybrids weren't so poor), they are alone in this because everyone else knows this isn't feasible. Anyone who can do simple math can demonstrate it. Even GM isn't denying it.

Or maybe it is because GM tried using hybrid tech in vechicles that could actully benefit from its use like full size trucks, or city buses, instead of grandstanding with a overpriced hey look at me econobox that does not make any real sense when you do the math ($30,000 for a car that is the same size as a Cobalt Sedan and gets basically the same mileage, come on lets be realistic here), but GM's way did'nt please the selfish treehuggers (they need a tax break for their overpriced Prius!!!), so people are going ape over the Prius throwing thier money away when they could get more value with a Corolla or a Camry if they had their hearts set on a Toyota, GM has not been uncompetitive, the people in the market have been irrational and in many cases anti-GM (or even anti-American brands) regardless of how good or bad the product may or may not be, because it is the fashionable thing to do.

Edited March 17, 2007 by SS427

[turbo200]

i didn't read everything here, BUT I read the first lines of what Flint had to say, about GM's promises, and really it's more of what just needs to be said. GM has made all kinds of promises and so so many times never delivered: like us Flint is waiting for that big turnaround, only in his more ancient existence he has been waiting far longer than I. This just sounds like medicine GM needs: straight talk express.

[Duncan]

First post - excellent site you've got here. For the record, I drive a Mazda, but I've always had a soft spot for GM.

Not to mention the propaganda flick 'death of the electic car', as if GM is the only company that "should make alll electric cars" and there is no complaining about the fact taht there was never any Asian make electric car at all in the 1990s!

Having not seen the film, I can't comment on it specifically - but from what I've heard, they could have done a little better research around the whole industry, and not just within Detroit.

But I post mainly to say that you're incorrect about there not being any Asian-brand electric cars. Two times false, actually: Honda offered leases on the attractive little EV Plus, and Nissan did the same for their larger Altra EV. Toyota also sort of offered a RAV4 EV, but very few actual users outside the press got to drive one.

And let's not forget that DaimlerChrysler still sells, if you can call it that, their very own set of GEM electric runabouts. That is, if you don't mind being seen in this:

Re: the Volt. Good on GM for being ahead of the curve for a change. Never mind Flint's semi-coherent ranting.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think that no one at GM should say anything that sounds like a promise - even with a disclaimer - when it comes to miraculous fuel-saving vehicles. The company has talked too much through the years. Talk is cheap.

Over the years, I remember too many press events for GM engine miracles that did not happen or have yet to happen. Such promises include a new steam engine, the rotary motor, a revival of the Sterling engine (invented by an English clergyman in the 19th century and a GM research favorite a few decades ago), the hydrogen fuel-cell engine, and "dual-mode" hybrid systems for trucks which are promised for later this year.

Last time I checked, the Dual mode hybrid and fuel cell programs were progressing just fine...

I think the way this paragraph SHOULD read is, like with future products (Zeta, for instance) GM anoices that they are STUDYING or LOOKING IN TO something and then the media runs with it and reports it as stated gospel.

Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver magazine remembers a GM president promising an electric car in production by 1980 (I remember a Ford vice chairman promising one, too). Bedard says that GM's promises are like bouncing rubber checks, and we should not trust folks that pass out bouncing checks.

Which explains why GM and the other domestics can never get an UNBIASED review out of Foreign Car & Import Driver. We don't ask these 'journalists' to judge the integrity of the corporations, we want to know how the cars perform. That's something they seemed to have lost touch with long ago... Like MOST 'news' and 'media' these days their reviews are based more on entertainment and opinion than actual facts.

"What is it about battery-powered cars that make dreamers, and the press, and dreamers in the press, go full-court cuckoo for them?" Bedard writes.

Well, I could think of MANY obvious reasons... But, you know, I remember when this was the "status quo" opinion on hybrid cars as well within the automotive media. Then the current Prius came out and for some reason all the publications did an about face and "became enlightened" to the wonderful Toyota ideology that the world would at last be at peace, if only we all drove small, blob-like appliances. As a result, the Prius has become a "statement" for all who drive them about how much better they are than the avergae polluting Joe. Hell, South park even spoofed the arrogance of hybrid drivers and the hoopla surrounding the unrevolutionary technology.

Roger Smith, Robert Stempel, and Jack Smith - all one-time GM chief executives - supported the electric car. Now the current boss, Rick Wagoner, is touting the electric plug-in hybrid, and Bob Lutz seems all for it, too.

Lutz and everyone else at GM should stay away from promising production dates to the press if there is a reasonable probability that the company will not be able to make the deadline. Toyota knows more about exotic batteries that any other automaker in the world. They are working on plug-ins, too. Toyota told me it is going to be a good while before we see the system work. I believe Toyota.

That is, in a nut shell, why the media is biased against the imports... This "I believe everything Toyota says" and "I'm skeptical that the domestics even have a pulse anymore" logic. Again, how is that fair, unbiased logic? How are GM/Ford/Chrysler supposed to rebound or at least survive when this FALSE credibility hierarchy has been established in the media? This isn't a gang, it's journalism... Print the facts and let the public sort out the rest. No one cares about your opinion, and if they did then consumers wouldn't be steadily losing confidence in, and cancelling subscriptions from media/news sources.

So if GM does not get electric car production in 2010, you can bet there will be a public television documentary titled, Who Killed the Plug-In Car, blaming GM. There will be a book, Unplugged at Any Speed, blaming GM for deliberately sabotaging man's last hope to end our addiction to oil, and a movie, A Really Inconvenient Truth, featuring an animated polar bear who sings "It's too darn hot," and blames GM's failure as a victory for global warming. Do not forget the million blogs condemning GM, too.

I agree, but people will make bull&#036;h&#33; documentaries regardless... It's what BORED, jobless (Michael Moore) americans do.

***I agree with Flint though, I hope the Volt PR isn't just smoke and mirrors. But keep in mind that GM is allied with DCX and BMW on future powertrain technology. I'm not sure if that extends to projects such as the Volt, but one would think it does and that's a lot of resources. GM HAS to deliver on this.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There is a difference between mitigating expectations and drumming up hype.

The media (and many on this site) are acting like Hydrogen cars are just a few years away. I've read "Hybrids are just a stop-gap for Hydrogen" on this site more than once. Honda, in spite of having a street legal fuel cell car some 4 years ago, and already having leased hydrogen cars starting over two years ago, and likely being the leader in this technology, is saying 2018 to downplay expectations.

Need I remind you of the hydrogen Equinox and Ford also has a Hydrogen car out but I can't recall what it is. And, FWIW GM has stated that the Volt is producable in 3 years, not that it will be mass produced IIRC.

Edited March 23, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[capriceman]

hmm... i fell like writing a paper about why electric cars are the way to go.

Also lets not forget the EV1 which pioneered NiMH batteries.

The only reason why they have hybrids is because of the one hybrid mandate the DOE was supposed to make but it was found un lawful and japan actually took it serious and did some research.