The world is NOT flat

[avant1963]

When I talk to someone about buying American cars, the subject always falls back to "I bet the TV that you are watching in not made in America, so what's wrong with owning a Camry?" There is only one response to this "apples/oranges" retort; "If there was an American made TV, I would buy it. But our government and big business has sold out almost EVERY manufacturer to other countries, that I CANNOT BUY an American made and owned TV, even if I wanted to." As far as vehicles go (probably the second largest purchase most of us dwindling middle-class Americans will make) I can make a conscious effort to purchase a car from an American-owned company, one of the last items we can.

Here's some statistics from economyincrisis.org that may spin some heads.

"Motor vehicles again topped the import charts in 2005 with $142,842,000,000 ($142.8 billion) of imports according to recently released statistics from the US Department of Commerce. Fully 39% of US dollars spent on motor vehicles were spent on imports – not including those not counted as imports as produced domestically by foreign-owned parents. This represented a 6% increase in percentage consumption of motor vehicle imports by the US over 2004."

Since 1978 13,948 US companies were sold to foreign ownership. Companies whose value total $1,750,846,777,2002.

97% of all Sound Recording Industries are foreign owned.

90% of Audio and video equipment was imported in 2005 (40.6 billion dollars worth!)

Just look at the companies that were sold out from America this year alone:

Metaldyne Corp - maker of auto parts are now owned by Asahi Tec Corp from Belgum.

The OREGON STEEL MILLS! are no longer US owned. Evraz from Russia owns it.

The USA is becoming a Banana Republic. Companies are using us to mine raw materials, like copper, and send them to China so they can make cheap computers and then ship them back to us to buy. We don't make anything anymore and it needs to stop. You know what happens to Banana Republics...

Bottom line, if there was ANY consumer goods that I can purchase made in America BY AN AMERICAN COMPANY, I will. Just run out to local stores and just try to buy anything that isn't made in China, Philippines or Vietnam. Good luck. Take some time and peruse the economyincrisis.org website and see how much of the USA has been sold, then tell me that I'm crazy for caring that GM and Ford pull through their current crisis.

[CARBIZ]

Excellent post! It shocks me at the prices of consumer goods. I bought a toaster for $20 recently (made in China, of course!) I bought my first toaster in 1979 and paid $24 for it then. I am guessing that would be the equivalent of about $100 in today's dollars. Probably that first toaster was made in either the U.S. or Canada, providing decent wages for 200 or so employees in a small plant somewhere here.

How can a microwave be built and RETAILED for $79? Call me crazy, but I would pay DOUBLE for consumer goods that were built, designed and engineered in North America, but in many markets that is no longer an option.

Maybe I am paranoid, but there seems to be some kind of massive cover up going on. I mean, how can the U.S. run the kind of current account deficit it is these days and NOT be pushed into the brink of recession or worse? The so-called wealth being created these days is all on paper and who is buying that paper?

China is a state-controlled economy. Japan is not much better. MITI wields unbelievable power in Japan, focusing and marshalling all kinds of resources when on the attack. It was toys and small consumer goods in the '50s, then electronics in the '60s and by the '70s they had turned their attention to steel, tool and die manufacturing and, of course, autos.

The U.S. is being attacked on all fronts, both literally and figuratively. How long can America afford to spend billions in Iraq, while at the same time consumers are buying anything that is imported. Even with a $11 trillion dollar economy, it can't go on forever.

[Camino LS6]

A sad truth and a dirty little secret.

I wish I had the answer, but when people can't see past the end of their own noses, what can be done?

[the_yellow_dart]

When I talk to someone about buying American cars, the subject always falls back to "I bet the TV that you are watching in not made in America, so what's wrong with owning a Camry?" There is only one response to this "apples/oranges" retort; "If there was an American made TV, I would buy it. But our government and big business has sold out almost EVERY manufacturer to other countries, that I CANNOT BUY an American made and owned TV, even if I wanted to." As far as vehicles go (probably the second largest purchase most of us dwindling middle-class Americans will make) I can make a conscious effort to purchase a car from an American-owned company, one of the last items we can.

Here's some statistics from economyincrisis.org that may spin some heads.

"Motor vehicles again topped the import charts in 2005 with $142,842,000,000 ($142.8 billion) of imports according to recently released statistics from the US Department of Commerce. Fully 39% of US dollars spent on motor vehicles were spent on imports – not including those not counted as imports as produced domestically by foreign-owned parents. This represented a 6% increase in percentage consumption of motor vehicle imports by the US over 2004."

Since 1978 13,948 US companies were sold to foreign ownership. Companies whose value total $1,750,846,777,2002.

97% of all Sound Recording Industries are foreign owned.

90% of Audio and video equipment was imported in 2005 (40.6 billion dollars worth!)

Just look at the companies that were sold out from America this year alone:

Metaldyne Corp - maker of auto parts are now owned by Asahi Tec Corp from Belgum.

The OREGON STEEL MILLS! are no longer US owned. Evraz from Russia owns it.

The USA is becoming a Banana Republic. Companies are using us to mine raw materials, like copper, and send them to China so they can make cheap computers and then ship them back to us to buy. We don't make anything anymore and it needs to stop. You know what happens to Banana Republics...

Bottom line, if there was ANY consumer goods that I can purchase made in America BY AN AMERICAN COMPANY, I will. Just run out to local stores and just try to buy anything that isn't made in China, Philippines or Vietnam. Good luck. Take some time and peruse the economyincrisis.org website and see how much of the USA has been sold, then tell me that I'm crazy for caring that GM and Ford pull through their current crisis.

I remember hearing recently that Canada has sold more of itself than any other developed nation. If this is true, we're in a worse boat than you.

[RichW5]

Walt ......

I'll be 65 this year and have seen the USA at it's best (just after WWII) and what you and I believe to be it's worst. I still have my first transistor radio, a GE, made in the US in 1955. It was the first true walkman (pocket radio), but Sony got the credit for inventing the walkman many years later.

I could go on about all the reasons for moving some of our manufacturing to other countries, but that would be long, boring and somewhat political.

There are three groups that disappoint me, old folks who buy Toyota's, young people who think buying American doesn't matter and the government, who doesn't enforce equal trade policies with the rest of the world.

I have several friends who fought the Japanese in the jungles of the pacific islands, who drive Toyota's. They constantly use derogatory terms for Japanesea and talk about their friends be killed by a Japanese sniper, but don't have a problem driving their Lexus or Camry. It's just wrong.

Kids don't know any better. They've been brought up with cheap Japanese cars and have developed an allegance for the brands, no matter how bad that first riceburner was. They ignore "rust", "sludge" and "cheating about recalls", in their support of their "wonderful" Japanese cars.

I could go on about the import taxes and regulations Japan, Korea and now China impose on "US built" imported vehicles, but it wouldn't do any good. Our government, under both parties, has failed to bring about "Fair Trade" with these and other countries.

So, I can only say that I will never buy a car/vehicle from an manufacturer other than GM, Ford and maybe Chrysler. I will encourage my friends to do the same and as for my grandson, he's already got a Silverado electric truck to drive around the neighborhood.

Edited March 7, 2007 by RichW5

[avant1963]

What I don't understand is the loss of PRIDE in this country. Other countries have pride. You don't think Japan has pride in their products. Hell, they even made Manga comics about Carlos Goshen, and his rise. They had pride that he revived Nissan. Once GM is back, do you think ANYONE, especially the younger crowd that would have been interested in Manga would read a story about Rick Wagoner? Do you think anyone in the country would give a darn. Does anyone outside us car geeks even know who Rick Wagoner is? Nope. The pride is not there. Americans can't build anything worth owning anymore. To that I say bull$h!. We just have lost the chance to prove it. I have pride in the country and can't stand to watch it get ripped apart for a very few to have 99% of the pie. The middle class is what made this country great after the Great Depression and WWII, and now we are watching it slip away and become a country that does nothing but consume and work at WalMart. Not the American dream I had in mind.

[daves87rs]

I'd have to agree with Walt on this one.

And I come from a very union family (both sides)

We try to but American, but you almost cannot find american products anywhere.

Even with my struggles- I still try to buy American.

It would be easy to just buy a Kia and call it a day. I could afford one of those.

While I'd rather buy a product made here-I will still buy an American product even if it is not made here (HHR, Aveo, for example) because bottom line the profits will still benefit one of the big 3.

[daves87rs]

A sad truth and a dirty little secret.

I wish I had the answer, but when people can't see past the end of their own noses, what can be done?

A major slap in the face-I think the wake up call is coming soon...

[lakefire]

I disagree with all of y'all and I will write up a retort when I get off work.

[CSpec]

Why is this a bad thing....?

[Cory Wolfe]

I can respect someone for wanting to buy American, but I'd rather buy what appeals to me and not limit my choices. It's more fun that way.

[avant1963]

But BV, this is what I am saying. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO BUY AMERICAN WHEN IT COMES TO TVs, Music, almost every consumer good that is out there. I am not saying close the trade doors, but we have to stop selling the store. I would love to be able to walk into a Circuit City, and see TVs built in China, Japan, Korea AND US, and make my choice. Right now you said you do not want to "limit my choices", but buy selling every business, this has limited your choices.

[Cory Wolfe]

True enough. I was mostly talking about cars, anyways... Since I'm a car enthusiast and all.

Edited March 7, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Intrepidation]

I bought a battery terminal cleaner from NAPA a couple months ago that was made in America (it says it in huge letters).

Our country has very little nationalism. After 9/11, there was a sudden serge in nationalism. people went out and bought flags for everything they could, including their cars. But after 6 months or so that died off. Very rarely do you seem American flags on cars anymore...or even houses. Why does it take a disaster for us to be proud of our country and unit? And why does it only last a few months?

As for buying American...in general, I buy what appeals to me and suites my needs. If it comes from Japan, oh well. If it's better than a competing American product, that's the American company's fault (mechanical pencils for example). Of course, sometimes there's no real choice, like buying a TV. When it comes to cars...well I think we all know where my intelligence lies :AH-HA_wink: ...but I'll buy any car from any manufacture if I happen to like it a lot...I'm not a bias enthusiast....I want a Toyota Supra someday.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Dodgefan

[regfootball]

The reality is the forces that led to this are many. Our bloated economic structure, massive overhead and red tape and regulations, and gross overpayment of our executives, managers, and laborers (compared to other countries), our expensive health care system, and finally the apathy and unwillingness of our public to preserve a national economy.

I am sure some think its ok to have the chinese build all our $h! and then the privileged few can sit in the skyscrapers with their overpaid marketing, management, and other 'let's have a meeting and then do lunch' kind of jobs. They can easily justify that. "My job is great, why do we want to keep $h!ty manufacturing jobs here?" they reason that America can become the hub of all those kinds of 'big shooter' decision making mover and shaker type fo jobs and that there will always be plenty of those type of jobs for those that 'pay their dues' i.e. dress well, go to the right stylistm and screw the boss and get promoted. Or those that feel one or two MBA's make them golden.

It still behooves us to preserve technical and manufacturing jobs, though. And those jobs have to pay well. And we cannot resort to valuing those jobs to equal what the third worlders get, that doesn't help us as a country. So those in charge ship the jobs overseas because its the easy thing to do.

So the movers and shakers assume no one will get lost in losing those jobs and their our economy will create new niches where everyone will access to a decent paid job. If not, they can always be the ones to make our mochas in the coffee shop. If they aren't good enough to work the system to get a 'cool job' then those people must not be worth $h!. Let em work in the coffee shop.

There is no effort by our business leaders to advance our American economic health or provide opportunities for a great cross section of our citizens. Its their mandate to simply spin the business to get those stock prices up, and react to market whims. Its too hard to do that, and build everyone's personal wealth and social standing. It's easier for a few to benefit and leave the scraps for everyone else.

I doubt its ever been different than any other time in our history. It's just disturbing because our gap culturally and economically in the country is getting wider every day and no one seems to give a flying f@#k about the long term damage that is unfolding right before our eyes.

A good start would be a new president and a focus on something besides a war that is draining the lifeblood of our people.

There's too many other tangents to go off on right now. This is about as pessimistic a time as I have ever seen that i can recall in our country.

I do know this, its time some business leaders and politicians in this country step up to the plate and try to focus on our country for a change. Even if it means foregoing cheap $h! and labor from everywhere else. We've got to make it more attractive to make people 'keep it local' just a bit more often in this country.

[Carguy]

The slow painful DEATH OF THE WEST!!----By its OWN HAND!!----If it were a foreign nation who was doing to us what we are DOING TO OURSELF'S for INSTANT $$$$$ it would be an ACT OF WAR!!----Avanti1963 and RichW5 are CORRECT!!---Have the American people become a bunch of free Traders--OR--free TRAITERS???

[CSpec]

But BV, this is what I am saying. WE DON'T HAVE A CHOICE TO BUY AMERICAN WHEN IT COMES TO TVs, Music, almost every consumer good that is out there. I am not saying close the trade doors, but we have to stop selling the store. I would love to be able to walk into a Circuit City, and see TVs built in China, Japan, Korea AND US, and make my choice. Right now you said you do not want to "limit my choices", but buy selling every business, this has limited your choices.

[Intrepidation]

BUY1NG 4M3R1C4N 1S T3H R4CII1ST!1!

I hated that guy..all he could do to defend his claims was call it racism.

[CARBIZ]

.....On related news, Delta Airlines just cancelled its contract with ACE Aviation Holdings (Air Canada) and moved its aircraft maintenance to CHINA.

SEVEN HUNDRED Canadians will lose their jobs (and these aren't the $8 an hour jobs everyone is clamoring for!) in Vancouver. Delta Airlines cited cheaper labor costs as the reason. well, DUH.

I just shake my head in despair and thank God I will never have children to worry about................................

Rome is burning and, well, you know the rest...............

[regfootball]

china will own us someday. enjoy it now while you can. there will be no sipping latte's when chairman Yao takes over.

[daves87rs]

china will own us someday. enjoy it now while you can. there will be no sipping latte's when chairman Yao takes over.

Quoted for truth.

By force ot not.

[avant1963]

If having pride in one's country and wanting to purchase products made here to support our economy and middle-class worker is "racism", then call me a racist. It's really called patriotism. I can play by Fox News Rules: Anyone who is against me about this is anti-patriot, against this country and against the troops fighting overseas. </Fox News Bull&#036;h&#33;>

[CARBIZ]

While we in the West debate semantics, there are forces at work that have no such confusion. As I have said before, the Right wing would have Wal-Mart sell everything from China because it is better for Big Business. The Left wing will drown us in calls for more immigration, more political-correctness and accusations of racism. Who are we to believe? Imported goods are better (Japanese) and cheaper (China). To even raise this issue, it used to be safe to wrap oneself in the flag, but that isn't even guaranteed any more.

Don't believe me? The United Nations (don't get me started!!) just wrapped Canada's knuckles yesterday. Geneva based Committee on the Elimination of Racial Descrimination (it scares the &#036;h&#33; out of me that such a committee even exists! United Nations: George Orwell just called!) said that the Canadian government's use of the word "visible minorities" is not acceptable, although no alternatives were offered. Oh, and the same report wants us to provide welfare for illegal immigrants and failed refugee claimants, but I digress.

Anyone who doesn't believe that we are FAT and LAZY in the West need look no further than the fact that the Canadian government even treats this report with any kind of seriousness. China

The Chinese government just gave Mozambique $2 billion to rebuild its power infrastructure. They're already cozying up to Brazil and India. All this while Bush bombs Iraq? Guys, America's days are fast waning and North AMerica's addiction to imported goods is only part of the problem, although that is a big part of the problem. I used to be a big proponent of Free Trade, but this is not Free Trade. This is our enemies using our system against us and us being so stupid that we just let it happen.

But go ahead, buy your BMWs and Lexus while factory after factory closes here. Your children's future is being mortgaged in a way that no other generation in the past has ever done.

[Camino LS6]

So how about some ideas to fix this?

Anyone?

[RichW5]

Over the years, I've seen some posters at C&G complain about the lack of good paying jobs. Most of them are young and have to accept minimum wage jobs at some fast food restaurant for pocket money. Many posters complain that they can't afford to live (and buy the cars they desire) on their current salary.

Guess what? Much of the middle class is vanishing due to the movement of manufacturing to low pay countries. We have two classes of people, the very rich and people who can just get by, stuck in boring jobs with no future. Then there's the immigrant class, people who are hard working and take jobs for less because they can. Much of their money goes to other countries and does not help the US or Canadian economy.

There was a time when young people who could not afford or chose not to go to college could get a good job with a "manufacturing" company. They would get married and save their cash for a home and the car of their dreams. Today, most of those jobs are gone.

If everyone followed the principle of "Enlightened Self Interest", this economy would support better jobs and a better life style for all of us. That principle tells us to make decisions that affect others around us and in return affect us.

Example: I bought a CTS assembled in Michigan. The GM employees that assembled it, got paid and in turn would spend their money to buy a house, car, groceries clothes, etc. Their house would need phone service and Ma Bell would have to add equipment to existing offices or add new cell towers. MA Bell would order that equipment from Western Electric (my employer) and I would get paid to engineer the the equipment. My money would come back to me.

Today that process has been disconnected. Western Electric is gone and if as some have suggested, I buy a foreign car, that money would never return to me (or any of you).

If we continue to buy foreign goods, at the expense of our own people, we will be owned by China and Japan, as Walt suggested.

Edited March 8, 2007 by RichW5

[CSpec]

IT'S NOT RACISM!! Did you guys pay attention? It's a lot LIKE racism, in that you're blithely picking one product over another because it happened to be made on the "correct" side of the fence. The logic behind this statement is very similar to a statement like "I will only buy goods made by white people".

Anyway, the reason as much stuff isn't made in the US anymore is because it can be done much more cheaply abroad, which benefits everyone.

[Camino LS6]

IT'S NOT RACISM!! Did you guys pay attention? It's a lot LIKE racism, in that you're blithely picking one product over another because it happened to be made on the "correct" side of the fence. The logic behind this statement is very similar to a statement like "I will only buy goods made by white people".

Anyway, the reason as much stuff isn't made in the US anymore is because it can be done much more cheaply abroad, which benefits everyone.

Please tell me you're kidding.

[z28luvr01]

Anyway, the reason as much stuff isn't made in the US anymore is because it can be done much more cheaply abroad, which benefits everyone

I think the displaced U.S. factory workers might disagree with that statement.

- People in foreign countries take pride in the products. The U.S. is full of self loathing people who consider anything domestic as "inferior" and anything imported as "exotic".

- Foreign governments take measures to ensure the healt hand profitability of their economies. The U.S. puts its own companies through hell and gives breaks to foreign owned companies who wish to sell here.

The country is enabling the rich and the poor to squeeze out the middle. Unless you are a manager or a tradesmen, your job will eventually be done outside of U.S. borders.

Our government becomes more and more self-serving with each administration, catering only to those who line its pockets. It is only a matter of time before the peasants revolt and a USSR-like collapse is upon us.

The first Presidential candidate that states his charge to be strengthening and protecting the American economy gets my vote.

[Intrepidation]

IT'S NOT RACISM!! Did you guys pay attention? It's a lot LIKE racism, in that you're blithely picking one product over another because it happened to be made on the "correct" side of the fence. The logic behind this statement is very similar to a statement like "I will only buy goods made by white people".

Anyway, the reason as much stuff isn't made in the US anymore is because it can be done much more cheaply abroad, which benefits everyone.

Playing the racist card prooves that there is no better, reasoning than that. You can say anything is like racism.

"I don't like like dark meat."

can be equated to:

"I don't like black people."

"YOU RACIST MOTHA f@#kA!!!"

It's stupid bull&#036;h&#33; that people who have no better reason to justify their arguments fall back on. It's as bad as religious nuts falling back on the bible "cuz it said so" when they have no real proof to back up their claims (FYI, the Bible is based on a bunch of edited material, mistranslations, and self-interest of the early church).

I think the displaced U.S. factory workers might disagree with that statement.

- People in foreign countries take pride in the products. The U.S. is full of self loathing people who consider anything domestic as "inferior" and anything imported as "exotic".

- Foreign governments take measures to ensure the health hand profitability of their economies. The U.S. puts its own companies through hell and gives breaks to foreign owned companies who wish to sell here.

The country is enabling the rich and the poor to squeeze out the middle. Unless you are a manager or a tradesmen, your job will eventually be done outside of U.S. borders.

Our government becomes more and more self-serving with each administration, catering only to those who line its pockets. It is only a matter of time before the peasants revolt and a USSR-like collapse is upon us.

The first Presidential candidate that states his charge to be strengthening and protecting the American economy gets my vote.

+1

[capriceman]

Considering we owe china a couple Trillion, That cant be good. I know that this is going on. Also I know some ways to stop it. But until we get 75% of America with us what good will it do us? The Only thing keeping my company profitable is Military contracts and Small business prototyping which is dwindling fast.

Well If the US crumbles and organized crime takes over I guess i will dust off the scope and continue making money. Michigan is a very bad place to be right now. Detroit is getting worse. 29% of St. Clair Shores houses are for sale. My car got broken into for some thin coats. Its bad when someone cant have the opportunity to get a education so they can work. Every year more schools close, the drop out rate increases. Then they blame it on our kids generation for buying Ipods? While the baby boomer generation let Free trade happen? let imports happen? While 80 year olds with more money then they will ever need raise there salaries in the Senate but let issues like our poverty rate increase?

[CSpec]

Playing the racist card prooves that there is no better, reasoning than that. You can say anything is like racism.

"I don't like like dark meat."

can be equated to:

"I don't like black people."

"YOU RACIST MOTHA f@#kA!!!"

Ummm... no. Watch it again, and pay attention this time.

[avant1963]

It's really hard to pay attention to the Fox Noise Channel. You actually get news from there? The rich who have gotten richer off the backs of the middle class, selling their businesses for millions to overseas companies and sending good-paying jobs to be outsources, OF COURSE is going to say this is great. And at Haliburton/KBR killing is a business and business is good... REAL GOOD, doesn't mean I agree with it.

I'm reading "Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate History" and this, my friends, was not how our great democracy was supposed to end. I fear if there isn't a huge change in 2009, the peasant revolt isn't too far behind, as long as we can pry the minions from their iPods, Xboxes and HDTV long enough for them to see what's happening here (stop children, what's that sound?).

Cspec, I will never see it your way. I will never see it the way of Fox News. I am an independent thinker, of the liberal mindset, and a proud secular humanist who wants to look after my fellow American, not bury them for a couple of bucks.

NOTE: I love that this topic has not gone off the deep end, and we can discuss like adults. Thanks all.

[Northstar]

I don't think buying only American products is like buying only something made by white people. There are white people making things all over the world, so saying you won't buy something made in Canada because you want to buy American cannot be equated to "I will only buy things made by white people." I think what most people are saying is simply that they want to support their fellow Americans, as they would want fellow Americans to support them if they were competing against an overseas company.

I think of his "strangers in Detroit vs. strangers in Juarez" comment like this: If you had the ability to buy food for an acquaintance (not necessarily someone you would hang on with but rather just someone you happen to know) who was broke or some random person on the street if you could only buy one meal? Certainly, you'd buy the meal for the acquaintance before the person on the street.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to buy products overseas, and by making things cheaper the workers who lost their jobs to someone overseas has a relatively good job of getting a job somewhere else because businesses would be benefiting from the cheaper prices and have the ability to higher more people.

One thing that is really important to take from this is how important a good education is today. If you simply have a high school education, you can go work in the factory or in a coal mine, but your job security is much more risky. If it becomes more profitable for your company to ship your job overseas, then you're out of a job and are going to have to find something similar, and chances are that job may get shipped overseas too. If you get an education and are working in an office, even if the company has to cut you, you have a very good chance of getting another job because chances are that the job is still needed and it just so happens that the company you worked for is shrinking and another company is growing. Therefore, the growing company needs more workers and your company doesn't.

What I just said above is much like foreign companies hiring American workers here. I don't necessarily like it because I'm somewhat bias against those company, but it is quite obvious that the Big 3 have been getting smaller and cutting jobs and the foreign companies have been growing and hiring more people.

Buying GM is buying American, and buying Toyota is buying foreign, IMO, but I think many of us apply this to everything. I don't have any feelings towards company A that went out of business because company B in China could produce things at lower cost, but I do have feelings for GM so I don't want to see Toyota run them out of business; however, I think this is more because I like GM products a lot better than Toyota products than because I'm worried that some jobs might be lost by Americans.

My friend's cousin just got a job as a Mechanical Engineer at Toyota making $90k a year. I'd certainly rather work for GM, but if I can't get a job at GM because they're not hiring or they're paying half as much, I might have to get a job at Toyota or somewhere that pays more because that's better for me. Doesn't mean I like Toyota or dislike GM, but it could just so happen that working for Toyota and buying GM makes me better off than working for GM and buying GM.

[CARBIZ]

I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to survive in this world. Our sister Toyota store has made overtures to me on a few occasions and I emphatically will not EVER sell Toyota. I would get out of the business before I would sell Toyota. End of story.

[zhawk]

.....On related news, Delta Airlines just cancelled its contract with ACE Aviation Holdings (Air Canada) and moved its aircraft maintenance to CHINA.

SEVEN HUNDRED Canadians will lose their jobs (and these aren't the $8 an hour jobs everyone is clamoring for!) in Vancouver. Delta Airlines cited cheaper labor costs as the reason. well, DUH.

I just shake my head in despair and thank God I will never have children to worry about................................

Rome is burning and, well, you know the rest...............

I wonder if that will affect the Air Force flying people on Delta. Hmmm.

As for me, I don't think I'll be on a Delta plane after I saw an Air China plane that was grounded in Germany for flying with ripped and torn engine fan blades.

[Robert Hall]

Well, I've read in more than one article that the 21st Century is the 'Chinese Century' as the 20th was the 'American Century'. The US is a nation in decline...will we end up like Britain or France--a 2nd tier world power but still vibrant and alive, or like Russia--a dying nation with a bleak future?

[SingleStylish]

The country, much like this one thread, is divided. Clearly there is a seperation. Whether you want to called it protectionist vs. capitalist or right vs. left or religious vs. non-religious there are TWO distinct sides to each gripe. Not one candidate since Bill Clinton (I am republican, before I get flamed) has united the country with moderation, intelligence and diplomacy. Thanks to a period of years of having a Democratic vs. Republican debate we have found two camps on each issue facing this nation. It does nothing but spur contriversy that Americans, as of late, seem to feed off of more than the issue itself. Americans in general have grown tired of staying involved in REAL issues facing them and their neighbors (take a look at voter apathy). Why? Simple. Being a Republican and for Pro-Choice is a form of taboo... that means that you aren't a "Real" republican. NOT! Moderation is the key.

Forget Brittney Spears or a girl from the trailer parks of Texas that married rich and died. We need interest in political topics with a passion to solve them through moderation, give and take. Here are some solutions:

1. Do not form a protectionist economy through tariffs. Short term it would cause further shrinking of the middle and lower class spending power. Think about it, where do most cash strapped people shop... discount stores like Target, Wal-Mart, K-Mart and the like. Their products are imported. Instead I offer this idea, tax incentives for corporations that invest in training, hiring, and retaining American citizens. The incentive would need to be large enough to offset the deficit between foreign labor and American labor. Where would the money come from? Welfare. Cut it off. If you want welfare, get a job. Period.

2. Cure the ailing American school system. Fix the mathmatics, physics, and chemistry deficit that so plainly cripples our ability to innovate. Initiate the school vouchure program in every state. In areas where there are few or no alternatives states would be required to oversee a division of the district until an option existed. May the best school system win.

Along the same lines, SAT or the like would be manditory for all graduating seniors. A score of 1200 or better would be required. For those who chose not to pursue advanced degrees, vocations will be required to be taught in school. Kids need skill sets.

3. Fire deadbeat parents. You're their neighbor. Call them out on it. Our social mores need to be changed. Instead of calling CPS on a parent who strongly disciplines their child in public, congratulate them for instilling moral conduct in them. Socially shame parents that don't take time to stay involved in their childrens lives and acitivities. Know who your children are, play with, and want to be. Invest in your child, invest in your future.

4. Lastly, educate the public with service announcements, education, and word of mouth. Debt is bad. SAVE SAVE SAVE!!!! We need more private wealth. Buy less, save more, invest in your future. In that order, once done spend moderately.

Any additions or suggestions? Go in peace and serve thy neighbor!

[balthazar]

>>"I fear if there isn't a huge change in 2009, the peasant revolt isn't too far behind, as long as we can pry the minions from their iPods, Xboxes and HDTV long enough for them to see what's happening here..."<<

In the past, revolts/ social revolutions were often wrought from unrest & a sense of injustice or powerlessness. The major, striking difference today is, there is NO sense of 'community' anymore, no common thread; American society is ever more unplugged from each other and instead plugged into "me" and "cheaper is better".

There will be no more revolutions... it is already too late.

[Intrepidation]

Bill Clinton was a great president who did a lot for our country. She he had personal issues, but he ran the country well. Sadly those times are past us now.

[capriceman]

Clinton was only good at speaking. With Nafta and trade with china he started really put us in the position we are in now.

Busch Senior actually turned the economy around but was never credited with anything.

I vote for the better person I'm not one sided.

1 on the list is to finish Iraq.

step 1 declare war against Iraq. freedom to open fire on any threat even if a suspicious civilian. Take control set up a radicalist government. Take Oil from them falsify Economy give them factories so a middle class can be formed let them be independent give grants to farmers. slowly let them take control.

step 2 free up prisons Bring back death penalty. Only time Capital punishment is issued is if wished by criminal or is 100% convicted with out any contradictory evidence proving otherwise.

step 3 Increase all education benchmarks mandatory 2 years required in a community college or other college. Any drop outs will go directly to unpaid community service if denies then goes to prison and make dollar tree items

step 4 stop all exports of raw materials and start importing them. Have prisons as factory's make them work for there food. (so many people commit crimes to go to prison because its more than what they have now)

Step 5 slowly diminish foreign trade become more independent.

Step 6 Tax the rich because "the trickle down effect" doesn't work. use money to renovate cites create factory's and work places for inter city's.

step 7 Stop the self esteem BS Tell kids that they can end up a loser and you cant do what ever you want you have to earn that. Give discipline.

Step 8 change our political system because like Washington said its impossible to avoid political parties but you cant divide your nation. Get some younger people in office.

Step 9 Stricter drugs laws, allow marijuana. but any other drugs will be treated as murder, death sentence or life. Make People like Enrons and have them face the same as drug addicts.

This is one of the most effective way to solve this. you will disagree, but Ask your self, Have you ever been in a ghetto to ask what do you need or do you drive by and say "I'm glad thats not me" then later say there doing fine they look great? when all they need is opportunity that most of our youth throws away. Or do you go into a high class neighbor hood were they received tax breaks so they can donate more or pay there employees more, but instead bought a bigger yacht?

We will always be hated so lets make it worth while. Lets Fix our selfs.

Edited March 9, 2007 by capriceman

[thegriffon]

You can't blame free trade for America's industrial woes. To some extent you can blame unfair trade, the US dollar as an intermediary currency etc., but mostly complacency at American companies large and small and the rise of the salesman over the manufacturer. Whole industries have disappeared simply because companies such as Oneida decided that their business was not making things, but selling them. Many others have grown accustomed to operating in one very large economy and decided that exporting to lots of smaller ones was just too much trouble (despite the current trade imbalance many Chinese companies have this attitude now); now they find themselves without growth markets overseas as the market shrinks at home. There is a lot of talk about the future of the Australian motor industry being in doubt—not so much because of foreign competition, despite union rhetoric, but because the market has shifted away from the 6- and 8-cylinder midsize sedans the industry produces. GM Holden has focused on export markets (most of the large sedans are for export markets already, and much of the engine production is also for export), but other companies are not in the same position. There are some sever structural problems facing American industries, but the problem is not foreign competition so much as new competition. If someone were to set up a brand-new American-owned automaker tomorrow it would have even more advantages than Toyota, Honda and Nissan do over the Chrysler, Ford and GM. United, Delta etc. aren't in bankruptcy because of cheap foreign competition after all. Woolworths and KMart didn't go broke competing against Carrefor or Daimaru. Ford can find willing buyers for many of its parts plants, even with unionised labor, partly because the new owners don't bear the burden of earlier Ford retirees as Visteon did. The former Western Electric was left behind as the technology of telephony changed, and accounting irregularities, as at Delphi, only exacerbated the problem.

[CSpec]

It's really hard to pay attention to the Fox Noise Channel. You actually get news from there? The rich who have gotten richer off the backs of the middle class, selling their businesses for millions to overseas companies and sending good-paying jobs to be outsources, OF COURSE is going to say this is great. And at Haliburton/KBR killing is a business and business is good... REAL GOOD, doesn't mean I agree with it.

I'm reading "Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate History" and this, my friends, was not how our great democracy was supposed to end. I fear if there isn't a huge change in 2009, the peasant revolt isn't too far behind, as long as we can pry the minions from their iPods, Xboxes and HDTV long enough for them to see what's happening here (stop children, what's that sound?).

Cspec, I will never see it your way. I will never see it the way of Fox News. I am an independent thinker, of the liberal mindset, and a proud secular humanist who wants to look after my fellow American, not bury them for a couple of bucks.

NOTE: I love that this topic has not gone off the deep end, and we can discuss like adults. Thanks all.

No, Fox News is a farce and does not deserve to be called a news agency. The reason I keep stressing people to actually pay attention to this video is because of the guest, who actually knows what he's talking about. The Fox News guy sees it your way, and keeps boorishly cutting off Landsburg, partly because of network policy to badger guests and partly because he does not understand Landsburg's argument, much like the rest of this site.

[CSpec]

I don't think buying only American products is like buying only something made by white people. There are white people making things all over the world, so saying you won't buy something made in Canada because you want to buy American cannot be equated to "I will only buy things made by white people." I think what most people are saying is simply that they want to support their fellow Americans, as they would want fellow Americans to support them if they were competing against an overseas company.

I think of his "strangers in Detroit vs. strangers in Juarez" comment like this: If you had the ability to buy food for an acquaintance (not necessarily someone you would hang on with but rather just someone you happen to know) who was broke or some random person on the street if you could only buy one meal? Certainly, you'd buy the meal for the acquaintance before the person on the street.

You don't understand his rhetoric either. Here is what most protectionist banter boils down to: I do not want to see American jobs go to foreign people. This is saying that products made by people that share your nationality are better and worth your money, because the factory happens to have been built in this country. But if a factory making the same thing is made a few miles down the road on the "wrong" side of the fence, it is automatically detrimental to American jobs and therefore bad. Landsburg is saying that this is ugly, because you do not know the people in either factory, yet you are saying that one set of people are better because they share your nationality, which most people do not choose anyway. Now comes in Landsburg's somewhat inflammatory comparison: this is an ugly practice, much like racism is an ugly practice. In one sense you are saying that people who share your nationality are inherently better, and in another instance you are saying that people that share your race are inherently better. In both cases you are judging complete strangers. The logic and reasoning behind people who express either sentiment are very similar.

[CARBIZ]

I am with Balthazar on this one. The "emerging markets," such as China, India and Brazil are not bogged down in this wrenching internal debate. They are (with the possible exception of Brazil, which does have a lot of mixed races in their midst) homogenous societies and are nearly single minded in their quest for expansion. Americans and Canadians are too mixed up in their own "specialness" to give a damn about their neighbors. We are so damned convinced that we are right and our way of life will prevail that we haven't taken the time to find out what other governments and peoples are really saying about us.

If you truly knew, you would be afraid. Very afraid.

The fact that this thread (as has another on this board) degenerates into personal attacks and cries of racism only proves my point. The West is divided and our competitors (and enemies) are using that against us.

[balthazar]

>>"You don't understand his rhetoric either. Here is what most protectionist banter boils down to: I do not want to see American jobs go to foreign people. This is saying that products made by people that share your nationality are better and worth your money, because the factory happens to have been built in this country. But if a factory making the same thing is made a few miles down the road on the "wrong" side of the fence, it is automatically detrimental to American jobs and therefore bad. Landsburg is saying that this is ugly, because you do not know the people in either factory, yet you are saying that one set of people are better because they share your nationality, which most people do not choose anyway. Now comes in Landsburg's somewhat inflammatory comparison: this is an ugly practice, much like racism is an ugly practice. In one sense you are saying that people who share your nationality are inherently better, and in another instance you are saying that people that share your race are inherently better. In both cases you are judging complete strangers. The logic and reasoning behind people who express either sentiment are very similar."<<

This is saying that products made by people that share your nationality are better

Who is saying this, and in what forum ??? If indeed a groups or groups are advocating this reasoning specifically, then Landsburg has validity in his rebuttal. But outside of outright hate groups, I have not seen this motivator seriously put forth.

Common sense would dictate that the primary reason to favor an American factory over one a few (thousand) miles away is one of economics, not ethnicity. Many people, again; those with common sense, understand that ties to the community, a sense of community and profit reinvestment/taxation help contribute to local, state & federal economies. History isn't a bad thing either. No one is calling for a ethnicity head count of factories to determine if a... toaster is made primarily by whites or non-whites or whathaveyou (well... maybe the Klan is). But based on what I quoted above, Landsburg is looking to make something from nothing.

But yes, nationality can indeed spring from economic interests, and there is nothing shameful about that, regardless of what certain critics would like to make you feel guilty about.

That said, in some instances you can make an unilateral judgement with impunity from racial charges. Do a looksee into the world of hand & power tools, esp American vs. chinese and you'll see what I'm talking about. This again is not about race, but product (and economics).

[CSpec]

Common sense would dictate that the primary reason to favor an American factory over one a few (thousand) miles away is one of economics, not ethnicity. Many people, again; those with common sense, understand that ties to the community, a sense of community and profit reinvestment/taxation help contribute to local, state & federal economies. History isn't a bad thing either. No one is calling for a ethnicity head count of factories to determine if a... toaster is made primarily by whites or non-whites or whathaveyou (well... maybe the Klan is). But based on what I quoted above, Landsburg is looking to make something from nothing.

But yes, nationality can indeed spring from economic interests, and there is nothing shameful about that, regardless of what certain critics would like to make you feel guilty about.

That said, in some instances you can make an unilateral judgement with impunity from racial charges. Do a looksee into the world of hand & power tools, esp American vs. chinese and you'll see what I'm talking about. This again is not about race, but product (and economics).

So you're saying that paying more for American products is better because the government gets more tax revenue...?

[CARBIZ]

Yes, as a matter of fact. The money stays in OUR economy. Everyone is getting hung up on prices and costs of goods. If we are talking about toasters and running shoes, it doesn't seem to matter a whole helluva lot (unless you work in those industries, of course!), but we are talking about high value added products like automobiles, aerospace, electronics. These are technologies of the FUTURE. If we lose control of those technologies, we will be living in caves and tents in 30 years.

Do you know how much money China is spending on their space program now? They have laid out a plan to have their men land on the moon in a decade or so. He who controsl Space will control the future, you can bet on that.

Damn straight I am concerned about the future of my country and my people. If my neighbors don't have jobs, they can't buy any cars from me, plain and simple. If all the factories close, not only are my customers losing the ability to buy a new(er) car, but we are going to lose the ability to control the technologies that go with those industries.

George Orwell may have been right when he predicted global power blocs being formed. Fortress America may not be far off. I wish I was wrong, but nothing coming out of Asia in the past 35 years would indicate otherwise. Japan softened us up so that China can come in for the kill.

[zhawk]

So you're saying that paying more for American products is better because the government gets more tax revenue...?

The governement gets more moeny to fix roads, prepare for disasters, decrease the deficit, etc (the list goes on)

The tax rate can also decrease since more money os coming in.

People within my local economy have jobs, buy products and services, which in turn create more jobs.

Promoting our own national economy is only common sense. As is promoting the economies of nations who recipricate and promote our economy by buying our products in like amount or value. Anything outside that is slowing hanging ourselves.

[thegriffon]

That's a nice argument, but it doesn't work that way unless you also aim to compete successfully in foreign markets. Don't try and argue—it's been tried. "Protectionism" has demonstrably led to a moribund economy with obsolete products and high unemployment. Ideally you want a situation where—like the auto industry—companies have an appreciation for the advantages of locally made products, but also but (unlike Ford and GM NA) are eager to seek export opportunities wherever they can be found (like GM Holden). Countries must seek trading opportunites to foster internal growth. Naturally potential trading partners like to see reciprocal opportunities which is why you see free trade agreements. Successive US governments have not been dedicated to opening markets with your biggest sources of imports for fear of sparking inflation, nor have enough US companies actively sought and supported export markets. Retailers large and small also have abig responsibility. Local retailers in Australia import a large amount of store-branded food products from, of all places, China—which must be one of the largest export markets for local producers (they also routinely import fruit and vegetables from the US, which isn't so fresh by the time it gets here, but Sunkist at least is big on global domination). I don't know about you, but I'm still wary of food products from Eastern Europe, let alone China.

I am surprised with all these go-nowhere startups keen to import vehicles from China, why none of them thought of buying a fully-compliant product line and defunct brand (such as Plymouth, Nash or Hudson) in the US. Right now I'm sure DCX would be open to offers. They sold the tooling for the Stratus and Sebring to GAZ without blinking an eyelid. But then that's the world view people have. Protectionsim won't change that.

[CSpec]

Walk into a store, and see how much stuff costs these days. It's super cheap compared to how much it was a few decades ago, yet people were even lamenting the loss of American industry back then. Obviously, it has led to bigger and better things.