Ford the martyr?

[the_yellow_dart]

I've been thinking lately - I can't wait for Ford to fold. The sooner they do, the less likely it is that GM will do the same. The UAW will have to make some kind of concession if Ford folds. Maybe then GM could compete.

Would this work?

Will it come to this?

What do you think?

[Intrepidation]

That's horrible to wish that on Ford or Chrysler. You think GM will just take all the market share they leave behind? Toyota and the other imports will snap most of it up. Not only that, butboth companies are an important part of our culture.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Dodgefan

[z28luvr01]

Ford loyalists will in all likelihood not go to GM if Ford goes under, just like how many Camaro loyalists didn't buy Mustangs when the Camaro died. Of bigger importance, though, is the general Consumer Reports-reading import-buying public, who is not going to be swayed into buying American if one of the big 3 tanks. It will only further their prejudices against American cars, and they won't buy GM no matter what they offer. Long term, Ford and Chrysler need to be healthy in addition to GM if the American auto industry is to have a shot.

[ocnblu]

Hear, Hear... Ford fans, buy a Ford this year. Mopar fans, buy a Mopar this year. GM fans, you know what to do. We gotta keep these pots boiling.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Know what I say? Scrap the UAW and start over. It seems like every other three minutes, we hear of the UAW bitching to some American automaker about something.

Think the UAW is run by a bunch of Emo kids or something?

[z28luvr01]

Know what I say? Scrap the UAW and start over. It seems like every other three minutes, we hear of the UAW bitching to some American automaker about something.

Think the UAW is run by a bunch of Emo kids or something?

Either that, or unionize EVERY single plant owned and operated by an autombile manufacturer. That aspect of the playing field needs to be leveled.

[daves87rs]

Sadly-I think the UAW is going to get a major blow this year..

They no longer have any sway in what is going to happen.

[AxelTheRed]

Yeah, let Ford go out of business!!! Woo hooo!! I can't WAIT to see what that'll do to Michigan...a state where the governer is talking about TAXING HAIRCUTS just to rake in some extra green.

God, half this board thinks that if either Ford or Chrysler go under, GM's going to pull in every single one of their customers and be Number One Automaker forever. Sad to say, but not everyone who buys American is tied down to the idea.

Edited March 7, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[SobeSVT]

I've been thinking lately - I can't wait for Ford to fold. The sooner they do, the less likely it is that GM will do the same. The UAW will have to make some kind of concession if Ford folds. Maybe then GM could compete.

Would this work?

Will it come to this?

What do you think?

That is a horrible (and very stupid) thing to say. AND if GM's ability to compete depends on Ford "folding" then GM is in much worse shape than you think. Hopefully both companies will pull ahead.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

First of all, I hope Ford doesn't fold and I don't think they will (Just like I didn't think GM would) The only difference is the media seems even MORE hellbent on ruining Ford than they were GM.

Secondly, even if they did fold, they'd be much smaller BUT much more competitive. And I'd be willing to bet that the new post bankruptcy Ford would kick some serious ass.

[Intrepidation]

Hear, Hear... Ford fans, buy a Ford this year. Mopar fans, buy a Mopar this year. GM fans, you know what to do. We gotta keep these pots boiling.

I bought an Intrepid last November

I can't afford a new car yet...but hey, it's the newest car anyone in my family has ever owned!

[Flybrian]

Hear, Hear... Ford fans, buy a Ford this year. Mopar fans, buy a Mopar this year. GM fans, you know what to do. We gotta keep these pots boiling.

I think I can get about three Rams and an Aspen for the $37.52 I have in my pants right now.

I'll buy a GM because GM makes a good car. I'll consider a Ford because at least half of their stock is darn good. I'll think about a Chrysler when they stop being tinny.

[Intrepidation]

I think I can get about three Rams and an Aspen for the $37.52 I have in my pants right now.

I'll buy a GM because GM makes a good car. I'll consider a Ford because at least half of their stock is darn good. I'll think about a Chrysler when they stop being tinny.

Might I suggest:

--

[Flybrian]

Do they have hood props?

[Intrepidation]

Do they have hood props?

I dunno...my car has struts...the Shadow has coil springs (the best way to hold a hood up...I wish they still made cars with them).

Edit:

Looks like struts:

Edited March 7, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Flybrian]

I say because the less-then-SRT LX cars have hood props, which is laughable for their price range. Likewise, the Infiniti G35 (at least the first-gen) had a prop, too.

Anyway, I digress...Ford is what now?

[Intrepidation]

I say because the less-then-SRT LX cars have hood props, which is laughable for their price range. Likewise, the Infiniti G35 (at least the first-gen) had a prop, too.

Anyway, I digress...Ford is what now?

Really? Why would they not make it struts for all models...wouldn't it cost extra for 2 different designs? Well you could get an Intrepid...even mine has struts.

Found On Road Dead

(couldn't resist)

[the_yellow_dart]

I don't mean to s**t in the Cheerios here, but I must remind the posting public that I've never liked Ford, nor am I pro-American. There's just something intanglible I like about GM. Always have. Would it be the same if GM were Japanese from the start? Absolutely. I see and understand the arguments about buying North American, and I understand them. However, as a proud Canadian it's a little harder to get behind those ideas. Sure, my money is staying closer to home, and it's partially funding plants around here, but it's still leaving my country. Not only that, but it's going to a country whose taxes support an army whose actions I really don't agree with.

This Ford question is not coming from a pro-American. So please remember that when you say it's a horrible question. It may be to you, but personally I would see it as culling the fat from the international industry.

I realize as well that not all Ford fans would go to GM. That's fine. Some would, and more to the point, GM would have more bargaining power with the UAW and would likely have to give less incentives, as they would no longer have Ford to compete with in that department.

The Silverado/Sierra make so much money... just imagine if there was no more F150.

[SobeSVT]

I don't mean to s**t in the Cheerios here, but I must remind the posting public that I've never liked Ford, nor am I pro-American. There's just something intanglible I like about GM. Always have. Would it be the same if GM were Japanese from the start? Absolutely. I see and understand the arguments about buying North American, and I understand them. However, as a proud Canadian it's a little harder to get behind those ideas. Sure, my money is staying closer to home, and it's partially funding plants around here, but it's still leaving my country. Not only that, but it's going to a country whose taxes support an army whose actions I really don't agree with.

This Ford question is not coming from a pro-American. So please remember that when you say it's a horrible question. It may be to you, but personally I would see it as culling the fat from the international industry.

I realize as well that not all Ford fans would go to GM. That's fine. Some would, and more to the point, GM would have more bargaining power with the UAW and would likely have to give less incentives, as they would no longer have Ford to compete with in that department.

The Silverado/Sierra make so much money... just imagine if there was no more F150.

The only thing that a Ford bankruptcy would bring is that Ford will legally be able to use the Collective Bargaining Agreementys with the UAW and the CAW as toilet paper. All health benefits granted to workers, blue and white collar, will go to hell without Ford having to ask for any favors, and the guys taking care of the proceedings wont certainly miss their fat fees. The company will be alive, will be protected against creditors for a while until they get their act together and GM will wish they had filed for .

Now if Ford disapears, which would seem to be your wish more than a chapter 11 filing, Toyota will certainly sit its well formed, nimble and increasingly good looking ass on top of the food automotive food chain to never leave again. It would trigger a chain reaction whithin the American auto industry and GM would probably collapse short after. Tousands and thousands of American and Canadian workers will be out of means of living and the Michigan/Windsor area will become the Kosovo of the Americas.

For someone who proclaims to be the "resident left wing troublemaker" wishing for "culling the fat from the international industry" seem to put it lightly, very contradictory, much more in line with what Ann Coulter would say, but I guess that those contradictions are all yours to deal with.

If Ford "Folds" though with it would also fold the spirit of the American auto industry, and of the American industrial might at large. The dream of the man that put the world on wheels. The company that gave its first wheels to the common man. The company that single handedly created the American auto industry (while Ford is the product of the dream of one man, GM was born as a conglomerate of failed companies put together by a man of great vision but horrible business skills and taken over by a group of brilliant and well educated and very aristocratic business men that followed very closely everything that Henry Ford did). The company that created the American middle class. Shoichiro Honda's inspiration. The creator of every single ultra big hit that the American auto industry has ever had: Model T, Model A, 1949 Ford, the Mustang and the Taurus, being the last one the inspiration for the Camry that seats in the top of the charts today. But if a senile and crazy as a goat Henry Ford himself couldn't make his creation "fold" in 1945, Ford will certainly survive today's juncture. So keep dreaming, and spear me the "left wing troublemaker" BS.

[the_yellow_dart]

edit: This thread has become too political. Forget it.

Edited March 7, 2007 by the_yellow_dart

[SobeSVT]

SobeSVT:

Explain to me how being left wing and awaiting the demise of an inefficient top-heavy corporation feeding a war machine with its tax money are contradictions?

You, my friend, are an example of the reasons that Americans are internationally hated. Just because you don't like an opinion doesn't mean it has no merit. You may not like my opinions, but please don't pass them off as contradictions unless you can back it up.

Your reference to history is very true. Ford did arguably contribute more to the automotive industry than any other company in history. However, this is (unfortunately) not what keeps corporations alive. That's capitalism for you.

Well, it is very very simple. The demise of Ford, or for that matter of any inefficient top-heavy (whatever that means) corporation that employs hundreds and thousands of people worldwide will be one more blow, albeit a giantic one both economically and morally to the American (and Canadian) workforce. Therefore if your left-wingness is true and therefore you are supportive of the little man, of the minorities, of the hard working people (whether in the US, Canada, Mexico or wherever else), the fact that you are advocating, or wishing - you name it-, for Ford's demise for purely economic reasons the way that "culling the fat from the international industry" is, makes the contradiction is evident and GIANT. Now, if you call yourself "left wing troublemaker", only because you don't support the war in Irak then you should also be wishing for GM's demise as well as for the demise of every single tax paying American corporation and individual there are since all are "feeding a war machine with its [their] tax money". But since again you spare GM due to that "je ne se qua", that something intanglible ( please! ) you are contradicting yourself again. If you think of it GMs contribution to the war machine is larger than Ford's.

Hate to disapoint you but I am not an American citizen and I do not support the war in Irak or the war as a concept at large (and I still need to pay my taxes) and although I tend to talk my issues to death I usually am very open to ther people opinion's as long as they make some sense. In my prior post I reazoned why I did see your position as contradictory and you chose to ignore any reason I gave you and instead all you were able to do was to pull the anti war card (very nice, we share that) and use a personal attack which incidentally you candidly extended to all Americans. So I hope you will understand if I don't hold any hopes for an adult conversation here.

[SobeSVT]

edit: This thread has become too political. Forget it.

Too late you got too personal. i am not discussiing politics but your hypocrisy. You call yourself a "left wing troublemaker", insult me and then ask me to forget it??? OK, fine . . . forgotten. just et me say that it is people like you who give us Real Left Wing Troublemakers a bad name. :AH-HA_wink: Edited March 7, 2007 by SobeSVT

[the_yellow_dart]

Well, it is very very simple. The demise of Ford, or for that matter of any inefficient top-heavy (whatever that means) corporation that employs hundreds and thousands of people worldwide will be one more blow, albeit a giantic one both economically and morally to the American (and Canadian) workforce. Therefore if your left-wingness is true and therefore you are supportive of the little man, of the minorities, of the hard working people (whether in the US, Canada, Mexico or wherever else), the fact that you are advocating, or wishing - you name it-, for Ford's demise for purely economic reasons the way that "culling the fat from the international industry" is, makes the contradiction is evident and GIANT. Now, if you call yourself "left wing troublemaker", only because you don't support the war in Irak then you should also be wishing for GM's demise as well as for the demise of every single tax paying American corporation and individual there are since all are "feeding a war machine with its [their] tax money". But since again you spare GM due to that "je ne se qua", that something intanglible ( please! ) you are contradicting yourself again. If you think of it GMs contribution to the war machine is larger than Ford's.

Hate to disapoint you but I am not an American citizen and I do not support the war in Irak or the war as a concept at large (and I still need to pay my taxes) and although I tend to talk my issues to death I usually am very open to ther people opinion's as long as they make some sense. In my prior post I reazoned why I did see your position as contradictory and you chose to ignore any reason I gave you and instead all you were able to do was to pull the anti war card (very nice, we share that) and use a personal attack which incidentally you candidly extended to all Americans. So I hope you will understand if I don't hold any hopes for an adult conversation here.

OK, the tone of this one is much more intelligent and less angry. If we're talking like this, maybe we can have an 'adult' conversation, as you say.

I still don't see the contradiction here. Right wingers want the corporations to take care of everyone. It would be contradictory of me, if I were right wing, to wish for the death of Ford. I'm hoping for the end of a corporation which would allow, under imminent bankruptcy, large bonuses for retiring management. This seems to me to be very in-line with left wing values... The big guy is running away with the money while they're killing chances of a future for the little guy. Raising against this injustice is a stand for the everyman. How is that contradictory?

[the_yellow_dart]

Too late you got too personal. i am not discussiing politics but your hypocrisy. You call yourself a "left wing troublemaker", insult me and then ask me to forget it??? OK, fine . . . forgotten. just et me say that it is people like you who give us Real Left Wing Troublemakers a bad name. :AH-HA_wink:

I got very angry after reading your first response. You questioned my core beliefs, ones I hold very true to myself. You treated my beliefs as if they were facades I made up for the sake of posting here. I am not a troll, and I am truly left wing. It felt like a personal attack, and I responded with a flame. In a way I'm glad that you read it though, since your response to it showed that you truly do know how to argue without attacking - which isn't what it seemed like from your first post.

I apologize for that flame.

Hope we can keep it civil in here.

[SobeSVT]

I got very angry after reading your first response. You questioned my core beliefs, ones I hold very true to myself. You treated my beliefs as if they were facades I made up for the sake of posting here. I am not a troll, and I am truly left wing. It felt like a personal attack, and I responded with a flame. In a way I'm glad that you read it though, since your response to it showed that you truly do know how to argue without attacking - which isn't what it seemed like from your first post.

I apologize for that flame.

Hope we can keep it civil in here.

Fair enough! I am glad also that we can talk our differences here. I guess that I am less of a romantic and much more pragmatic when it comes to this issue, I also have an enormous soft spot in my heart for Ford and cars in general, so don't expect me to be 100% objective. :AH-HA_wink:

I really would love to see both companies surviving.

[the_yellow_dart]

Do you think it is possible at this point for the Big 3 all to survive?

I can only see a few scenarios where all three might survive at least, say, 10 years into the future.

1. The US government introduces tariffs.

I really don't see this happening. The talk that Lutz and company had in Washington seemed to produce no word on this.

2. The UAW makes concessions without a bankruptcy happening.

The UAW already knows that the agreements they have with the Big 3 make them less competitive with the Japanese. Do you think they would suddenly have a change of heart without something drastic happening?

3. One of the Big 3 goes bankrupt, forcing a panic mode which saves the other two.

This is, unfortunately, the most likely solution.

Since it seems to me that Ford as of late has contributed the least to the auto industry, and are one of the most top-heavy in terms of corporate bonuses (at least lately), and also have one of the weakest lineups, that it why they were targeted by this piece.

If we can see option 1 or 2 happen, or somehow the Big 3 can pull themselves out of this union cost funk without drastic measures, I will be happy. The crisis mode will still likely be entered anyways, and changes will happen all over the Big 3. I feel this is needed for these corporations.

I think the time has come however where it's appropriate to discuss the alternatives.

If Ford continues to take the attitude they currently show when they give a retiring manager such a bonus, they I hope they do die, as an example of corporate greed, and as a martyr for the other two. However, we can always hope for change.

[SobeSVT]

I am convinced that one of the three will be a goner. That basically is Micheline Manyard's scenario in her book The End of Detroit. She said that by the end of the decade one of the big three would be out of the picture.

I still think that the goner is the Chrysler group, since it is the weakest link. Daimler is already trying to get rid of them, I personally believe that if GM buys them Chrysler will drag them down and I don't see how GM could buy Chrysler without the labor liabilities and almost as bad how could GM solve the inventory glut problem in Chrysler. There are those reports about Daimler wanting to keep Jeep with them (I can't blame them) which would basically leave the Chrysler group as an unapealing carcass with one or two attractive offers.

Ford isn't half as bad as Chrysler although they have their own heavy set of troubles. But Ford has shown in the last two years that they can deliver: Although it has soften during the winter the Mustang is a hit well beyond anyone;s wildest dreams. The Mustang sent both GM and Chrysler running to the rawing baord to come with concepts Challenger and Camaro, which street version are over a full year away from hitting the market right at the end of the current Mustang life cycle. The Ford Fusion had a very good perfomence when introduced and has only gotten better with time and the Edge and MKX had a very strong launch outselling GM offerings Acadia and Outlook, and have registered a conquest rate of 40% and the Fusions conquest rate is 47%, and somehow the Expedition sales have been growing for 6 months in a row while the Tahoe is receding quite significantly (a bit more than the Mustang)

I don't think the government is goint to help at all. I don't know if UAW consessions will be enough, but you can put money that there will be some.

The old Ford stuff is still a mess to work on but their new stuff is kicking some serious ass and that for me is a signal that Ford is a keeper. Only time will tell though.

Edited March 7, 2007 by SobeSVT

[the_yellow_dart]

I am convinced that one of the three will be a goner. That basically is Micheline Manyard's scenario in her book The End of Detroit. She said that by the end of the decade one of the big three would be out of the picture.

I still think that the goner is the Chrysler group, since it is the weakest link. Daimler is already trying to get rid of them, I personally believe that if GM buys them Chrysler will drag them down and I don't see how GM could buy Chrysler without the labor liabilities and almost as bad how could GM solve the inventory glut problem in Chrysler. There are those reports about Daimler wanting to keep Jeep with them (I can't blame them) which would basically leave the Chrysler group as an unapealing carcass with one or two attractive offers.

Ford isn't half as bad as Chrysler although they have their own heavy set of troubles. But Ford has shown in the last two years that they can deliver: Although it has soften during the winter the Mustang is a hit well beyond anyone;s wildest dreams. The Mustang sent both GM and Chrysler running to the rawing baord to come with concepts Challenger and Camaro, which street version are over a full year away from hitting the market right at the end of the current Mustang life cycle. The Ford Fusion had a very good perfomence when introduced and has only gotten better with time and the Edge and MKX had a very strong launch outselling GM offerings Acadia and Outlook, and have registered a conquest rate of 40% and the Fusions conquest rate is 47%, and somehow the Expedition sales have been growing for 6 months in a row while the Tahoe is receding quite significantly (a bit more than the Mustang)

I don't think the government is goint to help at all. I don't know if UAW consessions will be enough, but you can put money that there will be some.

The old Ford stuff is still a mess to work on but their new stuff is kicking some serious ass and that for me is a signal that Ford is a keeper. Only time will tell though.

I think Ford finally found their strength: Their bought intelligence from other brands. Mazda has helped them a lot lately (Fusion/Milan/MKZ, Edge/MKX)

[SobeSVT]

I think Ford finally found their strength: Their bought intelligence from other brands. Mazda has helped them a lot lately (Fusion/Milan/MKZ, Edge/MKX)

If Ford finally goes down, one of the factors to blame will be how terribly segmented and misused their global resources were for a long time. I am very happy to see Volvo technology used on the American cars (Five Hundred/Taurus, Montego/Sable) and also to see the successful join developments between Ford and Mazda in the C1 (Mazda3, Volvo S40 and Euro Focus) and D3 (Mazda6, Fusion/Milan/MKZ, CX-9, Edge//MKX). Now they are also jointly attacking the B-segment market.

I hope is not too little, too late. I think not, but then again, only time will tell.

[Oracle of Delphi]

All this hate for Americans, WOW! Where's that coming from? Well thank God my passport says Bundesrepublik Deutschland on it! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited March 7, 2007 by Pontiac-Custom-S

[SobeSVT]

All this hate for Americans, WOW! Where's that coming from? Well thank God my passport says Bundesrepublik Deutschland on it! :AH-HA_wink:

Speak for yourself sweeheart.

J'aime la Amerique.

Yo amo a America.

I love America.

[the_yellow_dart]

I don't hate America. I don't hate Americans in general. I hate the stereotypical close-minded American that some people think are normal Americans.

I was mistaken in identifying Mr. SVT as one of those people. I really haven't met anyone who truly fits into that category on this site besides maybe 'domesticated'.