ANN COULTER

[NDL]

However, to date every attempt to create a government that reflects the relationship between God and His people has failed, miserably. Why? Because, like in the Bible when God allowed the Israelites to be ruled by a king rather than himself, people, being sinful in nature, have an uncanny ability to screw things up. Governments slowly drift away from the Biblical ideals and become more self serving, and the people suffer one way or another.

Couldn't have worded it better myself!

[NDL]

Captainbooyah, if you ever want to investigate your theory off board, PM me...

[SobeSVT]

I don't see why evolution has to exclude God. I firmly believe in evolution but I am willing to accept the notion of a superior force, I'd rather call it mother nature and I totally BELIEVE that we are not even close to now the extent of its power. That there is a ruling concience behind it . . . well that is a lot harder to sallow for me, but I can't in all honesty say it isn't so.

What I will never believe is that we ae made in the image of God. We would be sooooooooo much prettier. I don't think that God is a half evolved primate.

By the way, Ann Coulter is an insult to bitches. The should make a new word for her . . . come to think of it, there is a very old one that begins with a big "C" for Coulter.

Edited March 6, 2007 by SobeSVT

[Cory Wolfe]

I LOVE C&G. I have been waiting for some reprimend for this line of discussion or even for a closing of the thread just to realize that is not going to happen.

Feel good to exchange with adults.

Agreed.

I'm sorry it rubs you the wrong way, but you're free to vent all you like ...

I can respect a person's inclination to disbelieve Creationism for another explanation, but Evolution has *never* been proved. I almost wish there were a third alternative...

I am sorry that you find the concept stupid. Even so, that's the prevailing wisdom and intent behind the foundation of our Government; that man's rights come from something greater than himself.

Would you rather your rights come from Government, who can add, or take away, at will?

I'm just saying that there's more going for evolution, than creationism. Outside of opinions, beliefs, and a book... there's not really any proof of creationism or of an existing god. Course, how could you even prove something like that in the first place? With evolution, there's atleast something solid behind it. That's all I'm saying. But thanks for not taking it the wrong way... I just had to vent.

As for our rights, I don't think they come from something greater. They come from people. Case in point, we don't have the right to kill another person, but we can kill animals and plants? Then there's the whole concept of marriage and so on. For a "God" to come up with these rights seems like a heavenly type of favoritism.

[NDL]

I'm just saying that there's more going for evolution, than creationism. Outside of opinions, beliefs, and a book... there's not really any proof of creationism

I've heard scientific arguments that support creationism, but I am not scientifically knowledgeable enough to test the veracity of their claims. If you're interested, there's a scientist by the name of Roger Oakland, who made convincing 'for and against' arguments (in favor of Creationism, of course).

But thanks for not taking it the wrong way... I just had to vent.

There's a difference between someone who's a simply a snob, or the person who's venting what is to them, a legitimate gripe. The snobish posters, I ignore ...

As for our rights, I don't think they come from something greater. They come from people. Case in point, we don't have the right to kill another person, but we can kill animals and plants?

Of course it can be debated, but I see in society, a tremendous decline in the value of life. In the Netherlands for example, euthanasia is legal - to the extent that neither the patient, nor his or her relatives, determine the outcome of said patient's life.

But if a group of doctors sees fit to exterminate said life, then so be it.

Anyway, I have gotten way off topic here...

[SobeSVT]

As for our rights, I don't think they come from something greater. They come from people. Case in point, we don't have the right to kill another person, but we can kill animals and plants? Then there's the whole concept of marriage and so on. For a "God" to come up with these rights seems like a heavenly type of favoritism.

100% correct . . . and you say you are only 18? If rights were God given wouldn't everybody be able to exercise them. Would kids in Africa be starving? for example.

[zhawk]

Its great to see such a volitile series of issues being dicussed so maturely. Gives me lots of hope.

Viper, that's the thing about faith. I have it without proof. I am glad you have the chance to believe and live according to your learning and beliefs. As long as we keep that, our country has a chance.

NDL, good logic in your arguments.

Personally, I have never seen an inherent problem with a combination of both faith and science. Both creationism and evolution are possible and can co-exist. An infinite being could use any medium for creation that was desired.

As for Coulter, she only distracts from the real issues at hand. I tend to read and watch to get information from all ends of the spectrum. And while there are grains of useful information and thought to her, they are almost always completely overshadowed by her belligerence. Personally, I am seriously hoping that our next presidential election gives us a much better choice that our last few have. While we won't get a president that everone will love, I want a much better one that we've had in a while. We need another Lincoln, Roosevelt, Reagan, or Kennedy. Maybe not their exact beliefs but someone on one of their levels of commitment and excellence.

Take care, all.

[gm4life]

I happen to think she has some excellent points, then again sometimes Ann sounds a wee bit crazy and out of touch. After all I am in the minority around here I tend to me more conservative than most. Overall she is a good lady but has her flaws, and although her apporach a little extreme *(to much for me even!)* she happens to shed light on real problems and political correctness is one of them... How far can we let politically correct go, I have always wondered and think we have to stop somewhere because we will always offend somebody.

Edited March 6, 2007 by gm4life

[SobeSVT]

I happen to think she has some excellent points, then again sometimes Ann sounds a wee bit crazy and out of touch. After all I am in the minority around here I tend to me more conservative than most. Overall she is a good lady but has her flaws, and although her apporach a little extreme *(to much for me even!)* she happens to shed light on real problems and political correctness is one of them... How far can we let politically correct go, I have always wondered and think we have to stop somewhere because we will always offend somebody.

I am with you in one thing, political correctness can be a real drag, but that human subproduct (AC) makes an excellent case for political correctness. How calling a guy (who isn't even gay) faggott does help in the political discourse? I sincerely hope you can explain that. She only does it to be provocative and to cause this kind of discussion which in these days of extreme polarization is anything but helpful.

She really needs to shut that useless mouth of hers up.

[NDL]

100% correct . . . and you say you are only 18? If rights were God given wouldn't everybody be able to exercise them. Would kids in Africa be starving? for example.

Sobe, Government abuse is the natural consequence, when a regime doesn't acknowledge a higher power. I think Z28 did an excellent job of touching upon elements of this (depravity, etc)

One other thing: Black, are you really 18?

[NDL]

NDL, good logic in your arguments.

Zhawk, thanks! I can always count on this bunch can always put up a good debate ...

[CARBIZ]

Having been raised on Heinlein, Asimov, Niven and other SF greats, it depresses me to no end that we are still having these kinds of debates....into the 21st Century. Religious fanaticism is dragging us back into the primordial muck and it sickens me. There is a ton of evidence - from fossils all over the world (and bottom of the ocean) to watching the AIDS virus evolve right before our eyes, to prove that evolution is all around us.

I will repeat what my grade 11 biology teacher said to our class. She wrote the words CREATIONISM on one side of the chalk board and EVOLUTION on the other side. She asked us if we all knew what they both meant. She said that if we believed in CREATIONISM, the class was over and we could all go home. This was a science class, she went on, and to that end the class is about discovery and investigation. CREATIONISM is about absolutes and dogma. Everything is contained in a few books and scrolls and no longer open to interpretation. Science is ever changing and open to interpretation. Even the "laws" of gravity and thermodynamics are being challenged and tested every day.

Yet, all around us are proofs that, for the most part, science works. From the nuclear reactor to the Human Genome Project, I think we can safely say that science in general gets it right more often than not.

The Ancients had a deity for every single leaf in a tree. The Greeks/Romans whittled it down to a few dozen angry, jealous Gods. Modern man has reduced it to one, with the usual battles over prophets, etc.

I am hoping that one day this can be reduced to none, so we can get on with the business of improving this world that we live in because it is the only one we have and the only one we will ever be in.

Promises of a great afterlife may have worked on feudal serfs, but I would hope we are more intelligent than that today.

[END OF RANT]

[NDL]

I've noticed its gotten a little less heated than it was a few posts ago. I'm happy that those who are participating in this discussion have managed to keep things level-headed and calm. As a moderator, discussions on politics, religion, and sexual orientation are things you almost never want to see. Here, however, its something one can browse through and enjoy reading. I'm very proud to be part of a community that has so many mature members, regardless of their physical age.

Also appreciated, is the latitude you afford fellow posters . We might not all agree, but many other mods close threads such as this - a tragedy - because although we might not all agree, something can always be learned, by someone of another perspective.

[Cory Wolfe]

One other thing: Black, are you really 18?

Yes. I think it's pretty obvious at times.

Having been raised on Heinlein, Asimov, Niven and other SF greats, it depresses me to no end that we are still having these kinds of debates....into the 21st Century. Religious fanaticism is dragging us back into the primordial muck and it sickens me. There is a ton of evidence - from fossils all over the world (and bottom of the ocean) to watching the AIDS virus evolve right before our eyes, to prove that evolution is all around us.

I will repeat what my grade 11 biology teacher said to our class. She wrote the words CREATIONISM on one side of the chalk board and EVOLUTION on the other side. She asked us if we all knew what they both meant. She said that if we believed in CREATIONISM, the class was over and we could all go home. This was a science class, she went on, and to that end the class is about discovery and investigation. CREATIONISM is about absolutes and dogma. Everything is contained in a few books and scrolls and no longer open to interpretation. Science is ever changing and open to interpretation. Even the "laws" of gravity and thermodynamics are being challenged and tested every day.

Yet, all around us are proofs that, for the most part, science works. From the nuclear reactor to the Human Genome Project, I think we can safely say that science in general gets it right more often than not.

The Ancients had a deity for every single leaf in a tree. The Greeks/Romans whittled it down to a few dozen angry, jealous Gods. Modern man has reduced it to one, with the usual battles over prophets, etc.

I am hoping that one day this can be reduced to none, so we can get on with the business of improving this world that we live in because it is the only one we have and the only one we will ever be in.

Promises of a great afterlife may have worked on feudal serfs, but I would hope we are more intelligent than that today.

[END OF RANT]

I wish I could have said it as well as that. I agree.

[z28luvr01]

Promises of a great afterlife may have worked on feudal serfs, but I would hope we are more intelligent than that today.

I think I would have to counter this point with a question - "What do you think happens when we die?"

Scientists estimate that the sun is about 5 billion years old and has another 5 billion to go. Life on earth will likely cease once the sun becomes a "red giant" star, as temperatues will become way too hot to support life. In any event, Earth has at least a couple of billion years left. Everyone here on this board right now will exist for only a fraction of a percentage point of that.

My opinion - Since I have too much trouble believing that once we die, we will just experience absolute nothingness for the rest of eternity, religion (or more appropriately, faith) serves to answer what happens once our bodies quit on us. Science and facts cannot explain what happens when we die - noone has come back to give us a report. Playing devil's advocate, if it turns out that I'm trying to have a relationship with a God that does not exist, there is no harm done. By following the set of guidelines for living set forth in the Bible, such as not killing, not committing adultery, not stealing, and loving my enemies as well as my friends, I've at least lived a righteous life. Noone could argue that.

[Croc]

Croc, I say this with all sincerity: Obviously, I have heard it said that, on the political scale, to the extreme right comes fascism. But that idea hasn't been sufficiently proven to me, and I can't dialogue with a Google search.

Are you saying you don't understand why fascism is the opposite of communism?

Let's have a few assumptions/facts:

Communism has never been done. True Marxist/Communist thought has never been achieved due to human greed. True Communism, the far left extreme, is (simplification) the people governing themselves and working for the common good on everything. Maybe think of this as Utopianism?

Fascism: Totalitarian regime where one person/entity (dictator) rules everyone.

The two are fundamental opposites...one is one person ruling all (fascism) and the other opposite extreme is no one ruling anyone, but everyone collectively working together (and agreeing on the common good--this is where what we know as Communism failed miserably...and why true Communism will never work in practice)

[Croc]

As far as the afterlife question. What happened before you were born? As far as you perceived, there was nothingness because you did not yet exist. But we clearly have no memory of nothingness. I'd expect the same in death.

[The O.C.]

Look at her adam's apple and all will be revealed.

OMGROTFLMAO.....!

You know.....as much as I hate Ann Coulter, I actually found the whole situation hilarious........especially her "apology" where she said "it was a joke" and she "wouldn't insult gay people by comparing them to John Edwards...."

The chick has balls....that's for sure....

[NDL]

My lack of a response isn't due to a lack of interest, but a lack of time. I look forward to getting back on topic, when I get the chance...

[z28luvr01]

The chick has balls....that's for sure....

If that was a double entendre, very well done, my friend

[The O.C.]

If that was a double entendre, very well done, my friend

Ah....nice catch....YES it was!

[The O.C.]

One other thing: Black, are you really 18?

BV's legal.....BV's legal......BV's legal.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

(just messin' with ya Cory.......heheheheheh)

[regfootball]

ann is a c--nt, but why do i always think of the phrase 'reverse cowgirl' and 'DP' when i hear her name?

goes to show you how much i value her 'mind'.

[regfootball]

Agreed.

I'm just saying that there's more going for evolution, than creationism. Outside of opinions, beliefs, and a book... there's not really any proof of creationism or of an existing god. Course, how could you even prove something like that in the first place? With evolution, there's atleast something solid behind it. That's all I'm saying. But thanks for not taking it the wrong way... I just had to vent.

As for our rights, I don't think they come from something greater. They come from people. Case in point, we don't have the right to kill another person, but we can kill animals and plants? Then there's the whole concept of marriage and so on. For a "God" to come up with these rights seems like a heavenly type of favoritism.

first off this isn't soley directed at any one person it just seemd like a good post to tack on a repsonse to.

the whole point to a concept like 'faith' is that you believe based upon what is in your heart and what you feel deeply.

Faith is not something that is 'proved'. In fact, if you even have to feel the holes in the hand, you've already rejected the concept of faith (Christianity used as one example here).

What's great about evolution is that is it jumps on that hard to reason concept of faith and goes the other direction of 'proof'. Science being the polar opposite of faith sets it up as the perfect way to go if faith does not exist in your mind.

Of course, science as a fact that is proved is a complete and utter f-king joke. We can say some bone they dug up is 100 million years old but honestly, is the person still around that dug that bone? Can you even prove 100% there was a Roman empire? Maybe all the stories of the Roman Empire were complete and utter bull$h!!

So in an odd way, what is preached sceintifically has to packaged in a way that if you believe all that, being spoonfed what they tell you like toyota spoon feeds a PR piece, then you could be perceived to be just as big a lemming as a Consumer Reports banger. After all, you are only regurgitating what someone told you to think. It's not like any of us proved any of the popular scientific theories OURSELVES. So, you gotta have....er......FAITH, (in science) to believe them. Cuz, like I said, we have no f-ing clue how long the Paleozoic lasted. It's all CONJECTURE!

It reminds of all those super annoying 'The camry is the BEST CAR' commercials out there right now. Someone told you it was the best car, so its gotta be true, right? I so wanna punch and beat up that smug little prick on those camry commercials.

And as usual, we all take sides with the extreme and never really GET that the true answer may be somewhere between the sides, and may even be such a complex solution that our pathetic stupid human minds could never fathom. Seriously, we are just crude animals with a little bit more smarts than your average dog. We (presumably) have lived millions of years and we still have child molesters and wife beaters. we still kill and hurt others. We choose to destroy each other sometimes instead of building each other up. We'd prefer to play slot machines rather than solve world hunger.

So really, for us stupid ass humans to presume we know ANYTHING about ANYTHING makes me laugh my ass off to no end. If we really had been around for billions of years, we'd have it all figured out by now, presumably?

For humans to think they are the cream of the crop and that there is no higher power, is ludicrous. With all the bad things that happen in the world, I obtain my faith from seeing all the acts of kindness and charity and humanity that happen every day. these are all things that would not exist if we did not have faith or something to believe in. Things such as helping others after a disaster....or a friend who consoles you when a loved one dies, or the young teen who takes time out of their schedule to give a ride to an older woman so she can go to the grocery store to get her food.

You see, there is no humanity in 'science'. i do not believe we are absent of humanity. Our humanity and grace is granted to us and shown to us as an example by 'someone else'. We live in that example because of spiritual belief. There is no scientific component to grace and humanity.

You can argue that there is no faith or religion. But you can never prove global warming OR global cooling, or that the world is flat. But you can prove that each and every day, despite all the ugliness we bear with our wrongdoings, that there is a force of humanity that exists to lift us all up. THAT IS THE ONLY THING you can prove. There is something there.

How you celebrate it or express it is open to interpretation and has many different versions. Sometimes those versions collide. nothing is perfect. Some feel the wealth of it and some do not feel it at all. Humans are not perfect. Our manuals of living are different a lot of the time. We are not omnipotent, and shouldn't assume we have capacity to explain it all in such silly humanly simplistic ways such as evolution.

Our hardest daily task in life every day is coming to grips with our own imperfection, and managing the imperfections of others who dabble in our lives. Its too hard to ever reach personal perfection, so why even bother to sum it up in scientific reasons? To have an expectation that the others in our lives are perfect and never do us wrong is unfair, untrue and self centered. Everyone has the same difficult road we must live upon. It plays out differently for each of us, however.

Like I said, the real answer is likely in between hard core creationism and evolution and probably unfathomably complex and interdependent. We honestly cannot prove any of it because we in no way are all knowing. There is never enough in the knowledge of generation to generation that is transferred in tact as proof that allows us to piece together our story ourselves. And we are lowly unrefined animals to begin with that if left to our own urges would all wipe each other off the face of the earth.

Another problem I have with the concept of pure evolution is that it dismisses us of our souls. interpet 'souls' however you want. Evolution in pure form really assumes us as a merely a statistic or a physical carbon based example devoid of feelings and emotion and SELF, when in reality our physical bodies are merely shelters for what we truly are deep inside in a non physical way. I have never seen anything in evolution that addresses the non physical being that we truly are. That is the part that religion and faith does address.

had to spout off. not preaching, just had to say some stuff. i don't espouse any one religion or anything, it just upsets me when it seems as though a lot of people out in the world today equate science and humans as having all the answers and knowledge. We really have very little of it. i would also invite anyone who dismisses faith of any kind to contemplate a few things I maybe said and at least consider the that their lives could be more satisfying and more at ease if they explore the possibility of some kind of faith in their lives. Not all faiths and religions are out to discredit us, or tell us we are bad, or are judgemental about who we are as a person. Faith is not always about dogma and absolutes. Seek out the things about spirtuality that can build up your soul. Don't dwell on and only focus on how it impacts you or us in a negative way all the time. That's pretty unfair to do that. You might as well read CR and buy a Camry because its the best car if you don't at least allow yourself to find your direction yourself first. It's like each of us expecting that our parents were perfect or something (which is surely never true!).

Edited March 8, 2007 by regfootball

[ocnblu]

What's this I hear about her hanging out with U.S. Marines who've done gay porn? Edited March 8, 2007 by ocnblu

[CARBIZ]

Well, it wasn't a bunch of Monks in Tibet or the Pope who gave us nuclear reactors, DNA crime evidence or put several robot ships on Mars. It was people and Science. Do not make the mistake of punching holes in science just because there currently is no official date for the Big Bang, or even an agreement on whether the Big Bang happened, then turn around and say all science is junk.

I personally don't know if Rome existed or not, but I can tell you that there is evidence to prove that basic proteins are very easy to build in basic scientific experiments (a common fish tank, sterile sea water, a couple electrodes, some ammonia and other primordial gases, plus TIME is all that is required.) It is also easy to prove the Earth is not flat. Atomic clocks circling the Earth as we speak have proven Einsteins's Theory of Relativity.

But FAITH is so much easier for those who can't be bothered to investigate for themselves. Don't bother reading the original Hebrew texts to discover how many possible interpretations there were for a single word. And know that those texts were translated by affluent, white men for affluent white men. Faith makes it all so comfortable and cozy.

Faith also kept Science in the Dark Ages for 500 years. Just ask those who dared speak that the Earth was not the center of the Universe.

[Cory Wolfe]

Most of this isn't worth replying to, so I'll only comment on a few points.

first off this isn't soley directed at any one person it just seemd like a good post to tack on a repsonse to.

the whole point to a concept like 'faith' is that you believe based upon what is in your heart and what you feel deeply.

Faith is not something that is 'proved'. In fact, if you even have to feel the holes in the hand, you've already rejected the concept of faith (Christianity used as one example here).

What's great about evolution is that is it jumps on that hard to reason concept of faith and goes the other direction of 'proof'. Science being the polar opposite of faith sets it up as the perfect way to go if faith does not exist in your mind.

Of course, science as a fact that is proved is a complete and utter f-king joke. We can say some bone they dug up is 100 million years old but honestly, is the person still around that dug that bone? Can you even prove 100% there was a Roman empire? Maybe all the stories of the Roman Empire were complete and utter bull$h!!

So in an odd way, what is preached sceintifically has to packaged in a way that if you believe all that, being spoonfed what they tell you like toyota spoon feeds a PR piece, then you could be perceived to be just as big a lemming as a Consumer Reports banger. After all, you are only regurgitating what someone told you to think. It's not like any of us proved any of the popular scientific theories OURSELVES. So, you gotta have....er......FAITH, (in science) to believe them. Cuz, like I said, we have no f-ing clue how long the Paleozoic lasted. It's all CONJECTURE!

And what is religion, but conjecture that's been passed down to each generation? It's essentially brainwashing to each and every person that isn't given the choice to learn about. Parents baptize their children and bring them to church before they ever get the chance to think for themselves. They are told what and what not to believe. How is that right? The only reason most of you guys are supporting religion here is because it's what you were told to believe at first. It had nothing to do with "having faith". It's all you ever knew and its what you now perceive as truth. If it weren't for all that, you can't really say what you truly beleive.

It reminds of all those super annoying 'The camry is the BEST CAR' commercials out there right now. Someone told you it was the best car, so its gotta be true, right? I so wanna punch and beat up that smug little prick on those camry commercials.

And as usual, we all take sides with the extreme and never really GET that the true answer may be somewhere between the sides, and may even be such a complex solution that our pathetic stupid human minds could never fathom. Seriously, we are just crude animals with a little bit more smarts than your average dog. We (presumably) have lived millions of years and we still have child molesters and wife beaters. we still kill and hurt others. We choose to destroy each other sometimes instead of building each other up. We'd prefer to play slot machines rather than solve world hunger.

So really, for us stupid ass humans to presume we know ANYTHING about ANYTHING makes me laugh my ass off to no end. If we really had been around for billions of years, we'd have it all figured out by now, presumably?

What are humans, but just animals? My belief is that the whole concept of religion stems from humans thinking they are somehow special, so they had to somehow be created. It's too much for us to consider that we once just a single cell organism, just like each and every animal, all bacteria, etc. Long ago, people didn't know about any of this. They were just animals roaming the earth. They couldn't explain where they came from, or things like the sun, rain, thunder, etc. Thusly, they came up with the concept of gods for all of the things they didn't understand. Over the years, we've figured out these things. Makes sense that we're now down to just one almighty God.

For humans to think they are the cream of the crop and that there is no higher power, is ludicrous. With all the bad things that happen in the world, I obtain my faith from seeing all the acts of kindness and charity and humanity that happen every day. these are all things that would not exist if we did not have faith or something to believe in. Things such as helping others after a disaster....or a friend who consoles you when a loved one dies, or the young teen who takes time out of their schedule to give a ride to an older woman so she can go to the grocery store to get her food.

You see, there is no humanity in 'science'. i do not believe we are absent of humanity. Our humanity and grace is granted to us and shown to us as an example by 'someone else'. We live in that example because of spiritual belief. There is no scientific component to grace and humanity.

You can argue that there is no faith or religion. But you can never prove global warming OR global cooling, or that the world is flat. But you can prove that each and every day, despite all the ugliness we bear with our wrongdoings, that there is a force of humanity that exists to lift us all up. THAT IS THE ONLY THING you can prove. There is something there.

To say humanity stems from religious is, in itself, ludicrous. Yes, it's one of the things taught, but saying that without faith, there would be no humanity, is ridiculous. Humanity exists through us, not through religion.

How you celebrate it or express it is open to interpretation and has many different versions. Sometimes those versions collide. nothing is perfect. Some feel the wealth of it and some do not feel it at all. Humans are not perfect. Our manuals of living are different a lot of the time. We are not omnipotent, and shouldn't assume we have capacity to explain it all in such silly humanly simplistic ways such as evolution.

Our hardest daily task in life every day is coming to grips with our own imperfection, and managing the imperfections of others who dabble in our lives. Its too hard to ever reach personal perfection, so why even bother to sum it up in scientific reasons? To have an expectation that the others in our lives are perfect and never do us wrong is unfair, untrue and self centered. Everyone has the same difficult road we must live upon. It plays out differently for each of us, however.

That has absolutely nothing to do with evolution.

Like I said, the real answer is likely in between hard core creationism and evolution and probably unfathomably complex and interdependent. We honestly cannot prove any of it because we in no way are all knowing. There is never enough in the knowledge of generation to generation that is transferred in tact as proof that allows us to piece together our story ourselves. And we are lowly unrefined animals to begin with that if left to our own urges would all wipe each other off the face of the earth.

Another problem I have with the concept of pure evolution is that it dismisses us of our souls. interpet 'souls' however you want. Evolution in pure form really assumes us as a merely a statistic or a physical carbon based example devoid of feelings and emotion and SELF, when in reality our physical bodies are merely shelters for what we truly are deep inside in a non physical way. I have never seen anything in evolution that addresses the non physical being that we truly are. That is the part that religion and faith does address.

No. Evolution does not, and never did, state we don't have feelings. Most animals have feelings. It's part of being a warm blooded organism. We have brains. They are complex. Thinking, emotions, storing, etc. are all things our brains give us the ability to do. There is no soul. When we die, our brains die, and that's the end of it. This is simply another thing people cannot grasp. There has to be a soul and we have to be special.

had to spout off. not preaching, just had to say some stuff. i don't espouse any one religion or anything, it just upsets me when it seems as though a lot of people out in the world today equate science and humans as having all the answers and knowledge. We really have very little of it. i would also invite anyone who dismisses faith of any kind to contemplate a few things I maybe said and at least consider the that their lives could be more satisfying and more at ease if they explore the possibility of some kind of faith in their lives. Not all faiths and religions are out to discredit us, or tell us we are bad, or are judgemental about who we are as a person. Faith is not always about dogma and absolutes. Seek out the things about spirtuality that can build up your soul. Don't dwell on and only focus on how it impacts you or us in a negative way all the time. That's pretty unfair to do that. You might as well read CR and buy a Camry because its the best car if you don't at least allow yourself to find your direction yourself first. It's like each of us expecting that our parents were perfect or something (which is surely never true!).

Edited March 8, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Sixty8panther]

Some people wonder if Coulter is really a hardcore liberal who attacks rightism through preaching the most extreme right $h! she can dream up.

I'm inclined to agree with that.

Whatever... who cares. She's got the right to free speech, you've got the right to not listen.

[z28luvr01]

Most of this isn't worth replying to, so I'll only comment on a few points.

I think both you guys, and the world at large, should know that science and religion* are not as mutually exclusive as they are made out to be.

- The Big Bang could have happened, but what or who could have caused it?

- The theory of evolution could be true, but what or who spurs it along?

I work in a company whose bread and butter is scientific research. My department manages a particle accelerator whose purpose, among other things, to create the conditions that existed at the time of the Big Bang. A great many of the scientists who do research here are surprisingly spiritual, following Christianity, some other organized religion*, or just acknolwdging the existence of a deity uin control of the universe.

When discussing the Bible it is important to understand the context in which it was written. Take this example: our modern technology allows us to undertand what creates rain, snow, droughts, and earthquakes. Obviously during Old Testament times these weather tracking instruments did not exist, so they naturally attributed it to a supernatural force they could not comprehend (it wasn't always God). But the Bible is not intended to describe a God who manipulates the weather and people's fortunes. The Bible is about a God who loves His people and longs for them to love Him back, and this relationship is something that is totally independent of science.

* - I used "religion" in this post, but a much better word would be "faith". Religion refers to rituals and practices developed by man - including what we refer to as "church" - for the purpose of worshipping God. Faith refers to yor own personal relationship with God. It is important not to get the two mixed up.

[NDL]

Having been raised on Heinlein, Asimov, Niven and other SF greats, it depresses me to no end that we are still having these kinds of debates....into the 21st Century. Religious fanaticism is dragging us back into the primordial muck and it sickens me. There is a ton of evidence - from fossils all over the world (and bottom of the ocean) to watching the AIDS virus evolve right before our eyes, to prove that evolution is all around us.

How does a bumblebee fly?

[NDL]

Yes. I think it's pretty obvious at times.

I wish I could have said it as well as that. I agree.

I wouldn't say that at all. You can certainly hold your own

[NDL]

The two are fundamental opposites...one is one person ruling all (fascism)

Exactly. And how does traditional conservative ideology, espouse that one person should rule all?

[Croc]

- The theory of evolution could be true, but what or who spurs it along?

Natural interaction with the environment. We've all seen through the enviro nuts that a little exposure to this, an imbalance in that, can cause DNA mutations. Frogs exposed to pollution grow third legs. Women exposed to radiation tend to give birth defects.

[regfootball]

Most of this isn't worth replying to, so I'll only comment on a few points.

And what is religion, but conjecture that's been passed down to each generation? It's essentially brainwashing to each and every person that isn't given the choice to learn about. Parents baptize their children and bring them to church before they ever get the chance to think for themselves. They are told what and what not to believe. How is that right? The only reason most of you guys are supporting religion here is because it's what you were told to believe at first. It had nothing to do with "having faith". It's all you ever knew and its what you now perceive as truth. If it weren't for all that, you can't really say what you truly believe.

I, like just about everyone else, goes through a period of time where you question the beliefs that were taught to you from birth. I spent about 7 years of my life from age 18 or so and did not go to church. I studied college coursework that was designed to question all your fundamantal beliefs and discuss the whys and why nots. I even wrote a position paper questioning many fundamental points on the Catholic religion.

I basically determined that there was something to the notion of faith and religion, in my own way, and by my own litmus test. I saw far too many examples which led my in my heart to believe that a God or higher power etc. did exist.

Some humans like to think they have absolute control over their own existence. Such fricking hogwash. We have the power to think and make decisions and act for ourselves to some degree. But its rdiciulous to suggest we determine our fates 100% completely. Its how we respond to the daily challenges before us, and how we incorporate our faith and beliefs into that, that determines how we become stronger inside.

So no, its not always a case of 'daddy said so'. It's more often a case of 'oh, now I do see what everyone is talking about' because you see it through example. Its whether you choose to interpet it a certain way or not.

[Croc]

Exactly. And how does traditional conservative ideology, espouse that one person should rule all?

Huh? Don't ascribe values to the spectrum. The spectrum has nothing about where a government "should" fall. Nothing like right is evil and left is ideal or vice versa. I'm not interested in philosophical debate...but since fascist regimes have existed, and they are the diametric opposite of Communism, they are placed accordingly.

[Cory Wolfe]

Some humans like to think they have absolute control over their own existence. Such fricking hogwash. We have the power to think and make decisions and act for ourselves to some degree. But its rdiciulous to suggest we determine our fates 100% completely. Its how we respond to the daily challenges before us, and how we incorporate our faith and beliefs into that, that determines how we become stronger inside.

Obviously I can't completely control my existance, with all the unknowns out there. However, to say some 'God' keeps me alive for whatever reason is a ruse.

[CARBIZ]

BV, you're doing a pretty good job. I especially like the point about the hubris of thinking God, if he existed, would be bothered with Man's existence at all. Pure hubris, on our parts.

Why do we confuse sentience/self-awareness with a "soul?" Perhaps our conscience mind acheives a certain critical mass that allows us to be self-aware, but being as we share on the order of 90% of the same genetic code as a pig, I wouldn't get too high and mighty about us being made in God's own image.

And what difference is there between the brainwashing happening with 3 year olds in Afghanistan, being conditioned to hate the West, and my grandmother taking me to Church when I was a kid?

We are a product of our upbringing, that is the only thing that is for sure. If you nearly drowned as a 3 year old, you will be predisposed to being afraid of water - for the rest of your life.

If people find solace in believing there is life after death and that there is some kind of divine being who truly knows what the hell is going on in the Universe, then good for them. However, I get all squirrely when people use religion as a weapon, and even the most benign religions can only exist through recruitment and conversions.

Being gay, I have borne the brunt of religious zealotry in all forms (remember Anita Bryant?), and ever since Roman times the Church (as with other religions) has used homosexuals as scapegoats for all kinds of evils. This nutjob, Ann Coulter, is just the latest bag lady of the Right. She, too, will pass.

[trinacriabob]

I basically determined that there was something to the notion of faith and religion, in my own way, and by my own litmus test. I saw far too many examples which led my in my heart to believe that a God or higher power etc. did exist.

Some humans like to think they have absolute control over their own existence. Such fricking hogwash. We have the power to think and make decisions and act for ourselves to some degree. But its rdiciulous to suggest we determine our fates 100% completely. Its how we respond to the daily challenges before us, and how we incorporate our faith and beliefs into that, that determines how we become stronger inside.

Agree. I, too, distanced myself from the church because of burn-out... Catholic school for 8 yrs elementary + 4 yrs. h.s. + 4 yrs. bachelor's degree = 16 years. However, I reflect on the basic values that were taught and feel that they are correct. Therefore, I returned in a very "not-hit-anybody-over-the-head" kind of way. Even within the Catholic church, you have the dogmatic and the liberal. It's too big to NOT have these kinds of factions. Furthermore, what I get from it is a basic Christian message that is SHARED by all New Testament based Christian + Catholic + Orthodox faiths (so I do not want to derail into a Catholic vs. Protestant debate because I choose NOT to see a difference between us).

That being said, I struggle with the fact that there is so much injustice, suffering, violence, corruption and inequality in the world. In fact, if anything, that is the one thing that most perplexes me and there are various Biblical interpretations surrounding why this happened. If I am feeling down, all I need to do is look at others in the world who are truly unfortunate and live in deplorable situations. Even though I have busted my ass to get where I am, I still almost feel guilty and am so thankful for my life as it is.

I think that God, a divine being, does exist. Look at every last damn thing around you and one can only ascertain that it is way too complex, intricate and orchestrated to have been ordained by just "nothing." God is indeed a mystery but I still have faith ...and so do many others who are way more intelligent and accomplished than almost anybody here. Because I do think that what we do here probably does have an impact, I try to tread as lightly as possible, though I have struck back at offenders to help "reset boundaries" because I had no choice but to stand my ground.

Therefore, any pimple on the ass of this earth, such as Coulter, from what I gather, is in no position to pass moralistic judgments. That we listen to and laugh at these personalities, commentators or evalengists is one thing, but if we take them seriously, then it's another.

Edited March 9, 2007 by trinacriabob

[z28luvr01]

Bob, that was probably the most insightful post I've ever read with your name attached to it

It's too big to NOT have these kinds of factions. Furthermore, what I get from it is a basic Christian message that is SHARED by all New Testament based Christian + Catholic + Orthodox faiths (so I do not want to derail into a Catholic vs. Protestant debate because I choose NOT to see a difference between us).

Exactly. Christianity has splintered the way it has because (simplified) people felt the church they were attending somewhow strayed from Biblical principles (or, more likely, their interpretation of Biblical principles). In the long run, it really doesn't matter, because your relationship with God through Jesus is paramount. What denomination you end up shows more about your preferred method of worshipping God and thanking Him for all He has done.

[trinacriabob]

Bob, that was probably the most insightful post I've ever read with your name attached to it

Thank you, z.

I believe in what I wrote and try to live my life that way.

[NDL]

Huh? Don't ascribe values to the spectrum. The spectrum has nothing about where a government "should" fall. Nothing like right is evil and left is ideal or vice versa. I'm not interested in philosophical debate...but since fascist regimes have existed, and they are the diametric opposite of Communism, they are placed accordingly.

Croc, now I am sincerely confused.

I don't care what academia teaches.

Traditional conservatism, that being puleoconservatism, in other words the 'far Right,' does not, in any way, espouse that 'one control all' - a major tenet of fascism.

[NDL]

Being gay, I have borne the brunt of religious zealotry in all forms (remember Anita Bryant?), and ever since Roman times the Church (as with other religions) has used homosexuals as scapegoats for all kinds of evils. This nutjob, Ann Coulter, is just the latest bag lady of the Right. She, too, will pass.

Carbiz, as a man of faith, I am sorry that you have had poor experiences with those in the religious community. And I too, look forward to the day when polarizing characters like Coulter, lose their influence.

[NDL]

I think that God, a divine being, does exist. Look at every last damn thing around you and one can only ascertain that it is way too complex, intricate and orchestrated to have been ordained by just "nothing." God is indeed a mystery but I still have faith ...and so do many others who are way more intelligent and accomplished than almost anybody here. Because I do think that what we do here probably does have an impact, I try to tread as lightly as possible, though I have struck back at offenders to help "reset boundaries" because I had no choice but to stand my ground.

Bravo, Trinacria!

[NDL]

So no, its not always a case of 'daddy said so'. It's more often a case of 'oh, now I do see what everyone is talking about' because you see it through example. Its whether you choose to interpet it a certain way or not.

[Cory Wolfe]

I think that God, a divine being, does exist. Look at every last damn thing around you and one can only ascertain that it is way too complex, intricate and orchestrated to have been ordained by just "nothing." God is indeed a mystery but I still have faith ...and so do many others who are way more intelligent and accomplished than almost anybody here. Because I do think that what we do here probably does have an impact, I try to tread as lightly as possible, though I have struck back at offenders to help "reset boundaries" because I had no choice but to stand my ground.

Like what, specifically? Just because something may not have been created by a "God" does not mean it was "ordained by just nothing". There is an explanation for everything around us, not "just nothing".

As far as intelligence and religion... How about Albert Einstein?

He argues that conflicts between science and religion "have all sprung from fatal errors.", however "even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other" and there are "strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies... science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ...a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist.". He makes it clear that he does not believe in a personal God, and suggests that "neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted...by science, for it can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot."

In 1924, Einstein became a member of a Berlin synagogue in order to declare his Jewish identity, however he did not identify with the Judaeo-Christian concept of a personal God. In response to the telegrammed question of New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in 1929: "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." Einstein replied in only 25 (German) words: "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." While unequivocally not believing in a personal God, Einstein still considered himself Jewish by heritage and saying "A Jew who sheds his faith along the way, or who even picks up a different one, is still a Jew."

Edited March 9, 2007 by blackviper8891

[z28luvr01]

I'll see your quote, and raise you another:

Did Albert Einstein Believe in a Personal God?

by Rich Deem

I get a fair amount of e-mail about Albert Einstein's quote1 on the homepage of Evidence for God from Science, so I thought it would be good to clarify the matter. Atheists object to the use of the quote, since Einstein might best be described as an agnostic.2 Einstein himself stated quite clearly that he did not believe in a personal God:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

So, the quick answer to the question is that Einstein did not believe in a personal God. It is however, interesting how he arrived at that conclusion. In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn't like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life. Of course, the results of Edwin Hubble confirmed that the universe was expanding and had a beginning at some point in the past. So, Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

It is the second part of the quote that reveals the reason Einstein rejected the existence of a personal God. Einstein compared the remarkable design and order of the cosmos and could not reconcile those characteristics with the evil and suffering he found in human existence. How could an all-powerful God allow the suffering that exists on earth?

Einstein's failure to understand the motives of God are the result of his incorrect assumption that God intended this universe as His ultimate perfect creation. Einstein could not get past the moral problems that are present in our universe. He assumed, as most atheists do, that a personal God would only create a universe which is both good morally and perfect physically. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices. Einstein didn't seem to understand that one could not choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's amazing that such a brilliant man could not understand such a simple logical principle.

These days, those who fail to understand the purpose of evil not only reject the concept of a personal God, but also reject the concept of God's existence altogether. If you are an agnostic or atheist, my goal for you would be to recognize what Albert Einstein understood about the universe - that its amazing design demands the existence of a creator God. Then, go beyond Einstein's faulty understanding of the purpose of the universe and consider the Christian explanation for the purpose of human life and why evil must exist in this world.

from http://www.godandscience.org

[regfootball]

great post. coulter is a pimple, and there are definitely 'menu Catholics' out there.

Agree. I, too, distanced myself from the church because of burn-out... Catholic school for 8 yrs elementary + 4 yrs. h.s. + 4 yrs. bachelor's degree = 16 years. However, I reflect on the basic values that were taught and feel that they are correct. Therefore, I returned in a very "not-hit-anybody-over-the-head" kind of way. Even within the Catholic church, you have the dogmatic and the liberal. It's too big to NOT have these kinds of factions. Furthermore, what I get from it is a basic Christian message that is SHARED by all New Testament based Christian + Catholic + Orthodox faiths (so I do not want to derail into a Catholic vs. Protestant debate because I choose NOT to see a difference between us).

That being said, I struggle with the fact that there is so much injustice, suffering, violence, corruption and inequality in the world. In fact, if anything, that is the one thing that most perplexes me and there are various Biblical interpretations surrounding why this happened. If I am feeling down, all I need to do is look at others in the world who are truly unfortunate and live in deplorable situations. Even though I have busted my ass to get where I am, I still almost feel guilty and am so thankful for my life as it is.

I think that God, a divine being, does exist. Look at every last damn thing around you and one can only ascertain that it is way too complex, intricate and orchestrated to have been ordained by just "nothing." God is indeed a mystery but I still have faith ...and so do many others who are way more intelligent and accomplished than almost anybody here. Because I do think that what we do here probably does have an impact, I try to tread as lightly as possible, though I have struck back at offenders to help "reset boundaries" because I had no choice but to stand my ground.

Therefore, any pimple on the ass of this earth, such as Coulter, from what I gather, is in no position to pass moralistic judgments. That we listen to and laugh at these personalities, commentators or evalengists is one thing, but if we take them seriously, then it's another.

[usonia]

It isn't so much the concept of a god that bothers people nearly as much as the concept of religion. I personally believe that religion has been the cause of most of the misery of mankind through out the ages. Everybody has the right to believe whatever they want and I'm ok with that. It's when they start acting on their beliefs in ways that affect me that I get hostile.

Now that doesn't mean that I don't believe in some greater power or something out there somewhere that created the universe. I don't know the answer to that question and regardless of whatever conclusion that I come to on the topic, I would never expect anyone else to think the way I do.

About the only religious groups I have any respect for are the Amish. I may personally find their way of life illogical, but they believe what they want and leave everybody else alone. That's the way it should be and we'd all be better off for it.

[regfootball]

Amish do stay segregated, except that they make and sell us kick ass furniture and they also have those 'swingers weekends' where they allow the outsider non Amish men to visit the farm and take part in their women. Kind like those days at Costco and Sam's Club where they allow a free visitors pass.

[usonia]

Amish do stay segregated, except that they make and sell us kick ass furniture and they also have those 'swingers weekends' where they allow the outsider non Amish men to visit the farm and take part in their women. Kind like those days at Costco and Sam's Club where they allow a free visitors pass.

Seriously? I've never heard anything like this and I grew up near an area where there were a lot of Amish.