Toyota Comin' Through!

[Oracle of Delphi]

General Motors and Toyota were once neck-and-neck when it came to developing high-mileage gasoline-electric hybrid cars. About a decade ago, you see, both firms had cracked the code on how to engineer a hybrid, and GM even had a running prototype. But the new technology was so costly that the automakers would have had to initially sell hybrids at a loss to build a market for them. The differing paths the two companies took symbolize why Toyota has become wildly profitable in the United States while GM has been losing its shirt in its home market. And why Toyota, riding GM's bumper, is likely to pass it this year to become the world's biggest car company.

In addition to taking different technological paths, Toyota and GM have taken different approaches toward expansion in the U.S. market. Toyota last week announced plans to build a $1.3 billion assembly plant, its eighth in North America, in Elvis Land: Tupelo, Miss. "No company since Henry Ford has grown production at the rate Toyota is," says economist Sean McAlinden of the Center for Automotive Research. GM, by contrast, is closing U.S. plants. It's also overhauling its models to make them more stylish and fuel-efficient. While GM achieved a surprising 3.4 percent increase in sales last month, its biggest expansion hopes hang on a possible purchase of money-losing Chrysler, whose problems are very much like GM's own.

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17440483/site/newsweek

[regfootball]

i'm gonna be sick. how much dough does toyota have to buy press like this?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Wow... I hear slurping.

March 12, 2007 issue - General Motors and Toyota were once neck-and-neck when it came to developing high-mileage gasoline-electric hybrid cars. About a decade ago, you see, both firms had cracked the code on how to engineer a hybrid, and GM even had a running prototype. But the new technology was so costly that the automakers would have had to initially sell hybrids at a loss to build a market for them. The differing paths the two companies took symbolize why Toyota has become wildly profitable in the United States while GM has been losing its shirt in its home market. And why Toyota, riding GM's bumper, is likely to pass it this year to become the world's biggest car company.

BULL$h!!

The Prius (Now a slow selling, incentivized model) had hardly anything to do with the current state of affairs and it's ignorant on all levels to imply that it did. The volume is marginal, it has been plagued with PR and quality problems and the technology is hardly "cutting edge" at this point. The ONLY difference the Prius *MIGHT* have made is that it started the media 'jacking off' over everything Toyota does (Much like this article) and thus resulted in a ton of good PR for Toyota (Most of it NOT DESERVED) and subsequent BAD PR for GM and Ford (Most of it NOT DESERVED)

To GM, selling hybrids at a loss didn't make business sense. So it took a pass. To Toyota, hybrids looked like a reasonable bet on the future. It developed the Prius, selling it at a loss for years (by all accounts except its own). Today, the Prius is eking out a small profit for Toyota in the United States. Vastly more important, it's the hottest hybrid on the market

That isn't saying much, since the VERY SMALL hybrid market is by all accounts now stagnating faster than a North Carolina mud puddle on a hot July day.

In addition to taking different technological paths, Toyota and GM have taken different approaches toward expansion in the U.S. market. Toyota last week announced plans to build a $1.3 billion assembly plant, its eighth in North America, in Elvis Land: Tupelo, Miss. "No company since Henry Ford has grown production at the rate Toyota is," says economist Sean McAlinden of the Center for Automotive Research. GM, by contrast, is closing U.S. plants. It's also overhauling its models to make them more stylish and fuel-efficient. While GM achieved a surprising 3.4 percent increase in sales last month, its biggest expansion hopes hang on a possible purchase of money-losing Chrysler, whose problems are very much like GM's own.

Stroke Toyota... Keep causing GM problems and we'll see how far your precious import trnasplants that are "creating so many jobs" get you then.

It's too bad that all of GM's fluff pieces are in off-the-wall low traffic sites, while Toyota can afford to BUY people like BusinessWeek.

What's at stake here goes miles beyond a battle between two automakers. After all, nearly 900,000 Americans work in the auto industry—the largest chunk still for the Detroit Three—and the car business accounts for nearly 4 percent of the nation's GDP. For the United States and Japan, GM and Toyota are trophy corporations

Give me a F*ckin' break...

GM, along with Ford and Chrysler Corp, has been the red headed step child of this nation since the 70s. The media has tried to destroy them, the consumers bad mouth them on a PERSONAL 'principle' level and the government couldn't care less if they died tomorrow.

that have been protagonists in a long-running national rivalry.

That ameriCANT will never win because we lost national pride and 'esprit de corps' a LONG time ago. Modern america is a greedy, capitalistic disgrace to it's founders and to people who fight and have fought for it's survival.

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The winner of this race could determine who drives the global economy in the 21st century.

We ALL know who that'll be.... 1) It won't be america because we've been in decline, outsourcing everything but our soul, for years now. 2) The MAJORITY of americans aren't cheering for Detroit in the first place (ESPECIALLY in the media and pop culture) or couldn't care less whether they live or die and 3) Everyone with half a brain knows that China will pass both nations to become the new superpower anyway.

america is a crumbling, rusted, sour reminder of what once was great. It has a society of uneducated, greedy, ignorant people who think "Being a good american citizen" includes CONSUMING (Yet not producing) at all costs. (THINK: The Economist) And on top of that, consuming goods that are a fraction of a cent cheaper (WAL-MART as opposed to local business) or that are considered "cooler" (Imported cars) at the expense of their fellow american and his/her job.

If you buy a Toyota, you stab your neighbor in the back... It's as simple of that. It's not Marxism (Modern capitalism has nothing to do with Marxism in the first place) it's fact. Less income for americans, especially the middle class, means less consumer power, choice and potential. Even Sociologists are beginning to see the change because generation after generation the gap between the upper 5% and lowest 5% of the population is increasing as the quality of life in america is rapidly declining. Generation Y is the FIRST generation that, overall, is not expected to surpass their parents in standard of living and quality of life.

Anybody want to guess why?

You've heard plenty about the differences between GM and Toyota when it comes to jobs, carbon emissions,

How is that relevant (Other than to drive the greenie knife into GM's back subconciously in the minds of readers--- Personal bias? Yes.) and what is it supposed to mean?

pensions and health-care costs. But it all boils down to a simple bit of math: Toyota makes cars for less than it costs GM, and it gets to sell them at a higher price than GM does.

Thanks to FALSITIES perpetuated by the media about the myth of quality difference as well as currency manipulation. The deck is stacked, so GM will never win anyway.

Distant Second: GM's number-one selling car, the Chevrolet Impala is outsold by 35 percent by the Toyota Camry, the top-selling car in the United States.

I find it funny that everyone makes it a point to rub in "the top 4 cars sold in america are import" yet the majority of the top 20 is DOMESTIC.

With some RELEVANT redesigns (Such as the 2008 Malibu) it's not going to be that hard to crack the top 4, and if Toyota continues with it's STERILE emotional attachment quotient and pitiful quality scores of recent, it "ain't gonna" be hard to outsell that Camry within 5-10 years or 1 or 2 product cycles.

It's taken 50 years for Toyota to reach this point—but, then, staying power and the "Toyota Way" philosophy of continuous improvement are what the automaker is all about. Since introducing the tinny, 60-horsepower Toyopet Crown in the United States (1957 sales: 288), Toyota has built a rock-solid reputation for producing reliable cars. It achieved that by investing in bulletproof quality, advanced technology and high-mileage engines. It developed a superefficient manufacturing method, known as the Toyota Production System, that relentlessly roots out waste and builds in quality. (Workers stop the line thousands of times a day to make sure no glitch gets through.) It is emulated the world over and slavishly copied by GM.

Except for all those failures over the years such as the 1980s Toyota minivan that would spontaneously combust or the Previa or maybe the Tercel, um... The Echo, the HORRIBLE T100 and recent low volume, compromised Tundra. The Corona, the Starlet, the new Prius that stalls in the middle of the interstate as well as only delivering 40% of Toyota's OWN mileage claims. How about the new Avalon that $h!s transmissions or the countless Camry V6s and their sludge that locks the motor up. How 'bout those Tundras and Sequoias the puke ball joints. etc, etc (And the list goes on) You know, the $h! that is never thrown in Toyotas face unlike the Monza, "No Go" Nova, Cimarron and countless other "references" that always find their way into GM articles.

And, a little known fact: The designer of that "relentless" Toyota production system was american AND the first Toyota was built by tearing down a Chevrolet to see how "quality" vehicles were made.

Toyota didn't dump cars into airport rental lots just to keep its factories rolling, as GM did.

Until now.....

And Toyota also doesn't have the UAW breathing down it's back either. See, they don't have to play fair with the american companies... Hell, even our own government will sell the Detroit 3 out for a brand spankin' new, shiny Toyota plant.

The result: a virtuous cycle that gives Toyota models topnotch resale value. After three years, Toyota's models retain 52 percent of their value, versus 43 percent for GM, according to the Automotive Lease Guide. That's a big reason the Toyota Camry has been America's favorite car for the past five years, outselling GM's No. 1 car, the Chevy Impala, by 35 percent in 2006.

Didn't we just hear that quote not 2 minutes ago.... Either someone is SCARED that this will change (and is driving home the message) or someone is biased and is trying to acquire new buyers. NOT TO MENTION, IT IS REPEATED A 3RD TIME UNDER THE IMPALA PHOTO!

What a fluff piece....

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Guest YellowJacket894]

It sounds like Toyota posted a really nice PR/propaganda piece to MSN. We've seen "journalism" like that before and we also can judge it's garbage from miles away. And, also, it's actually strange to read something like that anymore. Have you noticed that there's something of a shift taking place in the automotive media? Motor Trend seems to be coming off of their Toyota-induced high, same with a few other publications and websites.

That article is ignorant of the facts and, honestly, I feel as if I've wasted minutes of my life that I want back.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The second page begins with smiling Toyota employees at Toyotas brand spankin' new San Antonio facility.... Cute.

For its part, GM, like its Motown cohorts, went for a bigger-is-better strategy, boosting the horsepower and heft of its models over the past 20 years. Sales of those big rigs tanked when gas prices soared above $3 last year.

Yeah, because that's a market that ALL the asian companies aren't trying to crack... I mean, afterall, the San Antonio facility does top this page. And I'm getting tired of Toyotas ABSENCE in this segment being turned around on the domestics to look as if they were stupid for selling vehicles americans wanted. Wall Street sure the F*ck wasn't complaining in the 90s when profits were thick and I didn't see any of these pansy liberal journalists voicing the "I told you so" articles back then. Hell, these hypocrites were probably driving the kids to soccer in their SUVs just like everyone else.

EVERY major manufacturer has introduced BIGGER cars and SUVS as well as BIGGER horsepower numbers. It doesn't take Einstein to see the HP increases (and subsequent domestic bashing) going on with the asian V6s and V8s. Hell, the new TUNDRA is prime example of this!!!! It's 'BIGGER is BETTER' marketing campaign "Most powerful in the class V8" and beligerant "You bought an economy car" radio ads are enough to make the typical Prius driving enviro-humper throw up with worry.

It's ridiculous!!!! Honda... Introduced not only SUVs, but also a truck AND is considering, for the first time ever, V8 powerplants... SUBARU exploited TRUCK CAFE numbers for their new Forrester and Nissan BRIBED the government for CAFE CREDITS for GODS SAKE! Yet, NONE of this is EVER in the media!

GM also undermined the resale value of its models by overproducing them and giving them away at fire-sale prices. That flawed strategy wrecked GM's reputation, and allows Toyota to sell its cars at a premium of $1,600 apiece relative to GM, according to auto researcher the Harbour-Felax Group. Compounding the problem, GM gave its union workers generous benefits that cost the automaker $73 billion over the past decade. That's money GM could have spent making its models better than Toyota's.

Might I remind you that the Silverado and Aura are CURRENTLY besting the Camry and Tundra in almost EVERY comparison test. And, NEED I REMIND YOU that the Impala, and choice Buicks CONSISTENTLY best the Camry in quality surveys. NEED I REMIND YOU that BOTH GM and FORD divisions consistently BEST Toyota in customer satisfaction surveys EVERY YEAR!

Do you need more proof that GM can out perform Toyota?!?!?! Just wait!

In fact, it's such a vast sum that it equals nearly 10 years' worth of R&D budgets, GM execs say. Health-care costs alone add $1,200 to the cost of each car GM builds in the United States. By contrast, Toyota's health-care costs are about $200 per car. The upshot: Toyota has a stunning $1,800 profit-per-car advantage over GM in the United States, says Harbour-Felax.

So what? GM isn't supposed to pay healthcare now???????

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Now Toyota is marshaling its most formidable asset: its phenomenal wealth. It's on track to make a record profit of $13 billion this year, most of that earned in the United States, where it now sells more cars than it does in Japan. As a result of its enormous profits,

This article (of course) failed to mention that most of those american sales IMPORTED cars, you know, NOT built in america.

GM, meantime, is trying to reverse-engineer its losing approach. It's reducing its dependence on guzzlers by rolling out a parade of hybrids and crossover utility vehicles. Over the past year, GM has cut $9 billion in costs, much of it through a wrenching downsizing that eliminated 33,000 jobs. That helped GM earn an estimated profit of $2.5 billion last year, after losing $10.6 billion in 2005. GM is also boosting its budget for new models by about $1 billion this year. Execs are ratcheting up the rhetoric. "I don't view Toyota as an insurmountable obstacle that GM can't vanquish," says Lutz.

They HAVE to do something to combat pricks like you in the media.

More significantly, GM is showing a new willingness to roll the dice in its dalliance with Chrysler. Neither GM nor DaimlerChrysler will comment on or confirm the talks. Buying Chrysler would keep GM ahead of Toyota in vehicles sold, maintaining the leadership GM established in 1930, when it shot past the struggling Ford Motor. But analysts still see Toyota leaving GM in its rearview mirror. Auto researcher CSM Worldwide projects Toyota will edge past GM this year and, by 2013, will be outselling the American automaker by a score of 10.7 million vehicles to 8.9 million. That would give Toyota a nearly 2 million-vehicle lead over GM—which is roughly the number of autos Chrysler sold last year, and it plans to cut capacity. So buying Chrysler would only forestall the inevitable.

So GM should just roll over and die?!?!?!?!

What? Do you and the coveted (and usually wrong) analysts have a crystal ball that says GM won't rebound? Especially globally where GM consistently KILLS Toyota in places such as China and is beginning a HEALTHY businesses in places such as India and Russia?

GM's Chrysler courtship highlights another telling contrast: GM often tries quick fixes, while Toyota is known for consistency and a long-term focus. No surprise, then, that Toyota won't be among Chrysler's suitors. "I cannot find any benefit from buying [Chrysler]," Toyota executive vice president Tokuichi Uranishi told NEWSWEEK. "No synergy."

You idiot.......... How can you even be sure that GM is attempting to buy Chrysler for this reason? And if you think Toyota didn't at least consider buying them, you're even more ignorant than this article makes you sound.

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I love the poll to the side to REINFORCE this effort in marketing

Toyota is trying to shut out all the hoopla over its rise to the top. "What we are worrying about is if our employees become arrogant or complacent, assuming we are No. 1," says Uranishi.

Of course they are!!! They're KILLING a large part of our economy AND heritage. Oh, and DON'T BOTHER Toyota, your employees are ALREADY arrogant as hell, AND IT SHOWS!

Already, Toyota is experiencing what a Cadillac ad once called "the penalty of leadership." "Toyota is on the front page for everything we do now," says Toyota's executive vice president Jim Lentz. Lately, that's included bad press for a NASCAR cheating scandal and, most painfully, negative news about a rash of recalls. Headquarters is so worried about the quality problems that Toyota chairman Fujio Cho made a public apology in Japan last summer, complete with a deep bow.

Whoop-de-f*ckin'-do

GM chairman Rick Wagoner, no stranger to bad press, feels Toyota's pain. "We are becoming more alike than different," he told NEWSWEEK. He contends that the two giants will reach equilibrium, staying within a car length (or two) of each other. And though he didn't discuss Chrysler with NEWSWEEK, he described an auto industry that will continue to consolidate. "There can be more than one winner," says Wagoner. "Look at the cola business in the U.S. It used to be a lot of players, and now it's down to just two."

There still is a relatively large number of players.... However, many of them are NOT huge like Pepsi/Coke/Cadberry (RC)

Toyota, however, has no intention of letting up. Its steroidal new pickup truck, designed on a theme Toyota calls "the power of the fist,"

That's an awfully fat assed fist, because it looks like an organic blob of $h!, not a fist. You want to see Buff Toyota? then look at the new Silverado... Look at the Nissan Titan... Hell, look at the new Ford Super Duty. THAT'S "steroidal" not some organic Camry-morphed-into-a-fish truck.

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

could be the knockout blow to Detroit's last bastion.

Except, 1) It isn't a very good effort and 2) It doesn't even have the capacity to threaten the Ram, much less GM and Ford.

An entire generation grew up with Toyota cars, from Corolla to Camry to Lexus,

Yep, and judging by the state of things they're getting older and Toyota is FAILING to attract many younger buyers. The Camry IS the new Buick and heres some good news. Buyers 25 and under DO NOT show the traditional anti-domestic bias of their predecessors. In fact, they tend to lean a bit more toward domestic producers.

but traditional truckers spurned its pickups as wimpy.

Which they were and still are. Gruff sounding voiceover and all... Between Toyotas Grandma image for it's Camry and it's "I'm an accountant that doesn't really need a truck" image for it's Tundra, I think it sounds kinda bleak (Not hard to turn the tables with OPINION, is it?)

Now the new Tundra has been supersized and stuffed with a big V-8 engine.

Funny, this doesn't seem to matter in the environmental argument.

Toyota expects to double its pickup sales,

Not hard to do if you have a pulse, considering the sales of the last model.

thanks to buyers like Ray McCrary, who just traded in a three-week-old GMC pickup for a Tundra. "I'm one of those good ole boys who never thought about buying a Toyota truck because you thought it was a toy," says McCrary, of Memphis. "But after I drove that Tundra, I just had to have it. It handles like a car, but it's built like a truck."

Cute....

What a GREAT PR pitch!!!! Why is this guy even relevent again? Oh, I remember, to get the other 'good ole boys' to rush to the Toyota dealer! What a scripted f*ckin' quote... How long did the Toyota rep rehearse with him on that?

Plenty of good ole boys are making those Tundras at Toyota's new $1.28 billion pickup plant, situated on a sprawling former ranch in San Antonio, Texas. There's a giant Lone Star over the entrance and a Texas flag flapping in the breeze. Inside, though, the Toyota Production System is hard at work. A traffic jam of honking "tuggers" pulls racks full of parts to the assembly line, where every 63 seconds a shiny new pickup rolls off. "A plant in Texas is a brilliant strategy," says Citigroup auto analyst Jon Rogers. "Toyota is putting their future customers to work." One of them is Bruno Garcia, 35, who stamps out Tundra body panels by day but drives home in a Ford pickup. "I was one of those guys who would rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy," he says. "But I'm going to buy a Tundra, and I'll try to convert my Dad as soon as his Dodge dies."

Cute... Good ole boys everywhere UNITE!!!!!!!!!! Your master Toyota has employed a whole 2,000 of you! Wow.... (Much sarcasm implied)

Completing the circle, GM's trying to go green while Toyota's making macho. GM has given the go-ahead to the 150-miles-per-gallon Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid that lit up the Detroit Auto Show this year. It's proceeding despite the fact that the batteries needed to run the Volt haven't really been invented, or at least perfected, yet. But GM R&D chief Larry Burns is confident the batteries will be ready in time for the Volt to hit the road in about four years. Burns now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: "If we could turn back the hands of time," says Burns, "we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier." Just like that old prototype, the Volt won't generate immediate profits. But times have changed. "We're the underdog now," explains GM VP Mark LaNeve. "So you're more willing to take risks." Better late than never.

Heavy dose of pessimism.... What happened to the "and what GM plans to do" part of the article?

Edited March 6, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[regfootball]

toyota sure knows how to blow blow blow. where can i get some of that.

[BrewSwillis]

Thanks FOG!

I really didn't feel like tearing apart that pathetic article!

[Oracle of Delphi]

FOG, you're pretty funny. I enjoyed your insightful critique!

[Mr.Krinkle]

FOG- You know its O.K. to have a difference of opinion. You don't have to be such a big f@#king crybaby about it.

and no, I'm not a counter measure disinformation agent employed by The toyota machine to stategically place what sounds like logical well crafted ideas designed to subvert the subconscious manifestations in the guise as an objective front.

Your first line about hybrids not selling couldnt be more wrong.

-- CURRENT MONTH -- -- CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE --

DSR % DSR %

2007 2006 CHG 2007 2006 CHG

PRIUS 12,227 6,547 86.8 20,526 14,201 41.6

the article referred to it as an halo car. THats not exactly a flattering term.

you know what that means right?

--it gives the perception of desirability across a spectrum however you want to define it--whether its true or not...its just supposed to make everything else look that much better. the z06, gt40, mustang, camaro, nsx, supra. 16

Gas prices will go up again --what will happen to the gas guzzlers this time? How many katrinas will it take. Maybe one more just to solidify it? When Wags pulled the plug on the ev1 toyota went ahead. Sorry. I dont like it any more than you do.

btw--the movie about the electric car not too long ago, the makers admit they purposefully ommitted toyotas failures. THATs BiaS. Toyota even said they didnt know why they werent included...turns out when they were filming the guards at GM were a little nasty and the ones at toyota offered them cookies while they waited.

Im sure you can google that little anectdote.

pensions and health-care costs. But it all boils down to a simple bit of math: Toyota makes cars for less than it costs GM, and it gets to sell them at a higher price than GM does.

that isnt TRUTH? how did GM cut 9 BILLION dollars if thats FALSE?

whats your gripe? currency manipulation? yeah, that one sucks. but did wattanabe have the UAW sign their contracts on the trunk of the Dodge Intrepid?

Distant Second: GM's number-one selling car, the Chevrolet Impala is outsold by 35 percent by the Toyota Camry, the top-selling car in the United States.

Is he making those numbers up? sounds about right to me. Maybe he should have said and thats with 40% sales going to rental fleets because most Americans rather buy Camrys.

its funny that the rest of America is brainwashed...and we buy the American cars because they are better? nah, I just like 'em better. especially my grand prix but why would the greatest and most effective propaganda machine be employed by the opposition in one of your favorite interests--the auto industry??? coincidence.?

I saw this as a wake up call.

Do you think they care that much? the media does not try to destroy the US auto insustry you fool. if anything it you are the one that is biased. As a student of psychology you should familiarize yourself with certain cognitive misconceptions.

heres a brief tutorial.

http://www.answers.com/topic/hostile-media-effect

I dont have the time nor desire to pick throught the rest of this bs.

and by the by FOGGY i see plenty of good ol American cars right here on the lovely East coast in NYC. Earlier today a brand new escalade, envoy, older suburban, and ss blazer were all filling up at the same GAS station. As i was leaving a typhoon pulled in. sure i see plenty of foreign cars but its still at about 2-1.

And I see 10 new impalas for every new camry. --and no they arent rentals.

[Snate]

I see Toyota PR is writing stuff and trying to pass it off as neutral news reporting again.

[CARBIZ]

Well, guys, I work in the front lines and I can tell you that the propoganda is REAL and it is working. Customer after customer with solid, good running American cars are defecting to "imports" because they are "better." I am currently in a struggle with a 70 year old woman who has a 2003 Alero that, by her own admission, has been a great car. Her son is directing her to Honda. When asked why the imports are better, invariably you get stonewalled or a shrug. When I pull our my arsenal (articles and pieces I have copied from various sources, largely found via Cheers and Gears) I usually get a shocked look. Why, this 70 year old lady asked, don't we read any of this in the "maintstream" news.

That, I replied, is the $64,000 question. Why, indeed?

Despite this waste-of-time-fluff piece we have just read, it is by no means a far-gone conclusion that Toyota is destined to become King of the Universe. Eighteen months ago, I would have granted you that; however, the public is very fickle and the tide can change. For one thing, GM has a far bigger market share than Japan Inc in both Europe, China and South America. This fluff piece is too American-centric, much like Detroit's thinking. The sooner Detroit stops thinking of NOrth America as special, the better off we all will be.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Well, guys, I work in the front lines and I can tell you that the propoganda is REAL and it is working. Customer after customer with solid, good running American cars are defecting to "imports" because they are "better." I am currently in a struggle with a 70 year old woman who has a 2003 Alero that, by her own admission, has been a great car. Her son is directing her to Honda. When asked why the imports are better, invariably you get stonewalled or a shrug. When I pull our my arsenal (articles and pieces I have copied from various sources, largely found via Cheers and Gears) I usually get a shocked look. Why, this 70 year old lady asked, don't we read any of this in the "maintstream" news.

That, I replied, is the $64,000 question. Why, indeed?

Despite this waste-of-time-fluff piece we have just read, it is by no means a far-gone conclusion that Toyota is destined to become King of the Universe. Eighteen months ago, I would have granted you that; however, the public is very fickle and the tide can change. For one thing, GM has a far bigger market share than Japan Inc in both Europe, China and South America. This fluff piece is too American-centric, much like Detroit's thinking. The sooner Detroit stops thinking of NOrth America as special, the better off we all will be.

People are biased. im sick of that word. Maybe grandson was stranded in a Chevy and doesnt want the same thing to happen to 70 yr old grandma. Who knows but dont blame personal preference on a cleverly hidden brainwashing.

Just to play the devils advocate for a moment: were these fluff pieces payed for by Ford and GM?

http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/01/Autos/hybrid/

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/21/pf/autos/h...sense/index.htm

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006...cr_hybrids.html

Does this media bias extend to Europe where we already have an inkling as to their feelings on our automobiles?

I cant say with the news is like up in the great North but i am pretty confident that over here we get a

decent balance. Perfect? no, i dont know but this story is a stretch for making a case for mb.

Proclaiming MB acts as more of a disservice.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=15820 --interesting. No?

Edited March 6, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

from the HEADLINE

Comin' Through! How GM plans to fight back.

To GM, selling hybrids at a loss didn't make business sense. So it took a pass.

can you fault them?

the Prius is eking out a small profit for Toyota in the United States. Vastly more important, it's the hottest hybrid on the market and provides a halo for Toyota, making it appear to be the world's greenest carmaker even as it rolls out gas-guzzling trucks.

skip over that one?

defending itself from allegations that its Hummer SUV melts the planet. "We made a bad decision," GM vice chairman Bob Lutz now says. "Being known as the technology laggard is not conducive to selling automobiles."

GM, by contrast, is closing U.S. plants. It's also overhauling its models to make them more stylish and fuel-efficient.

it had to be done

GM gave its union workers generous benefits that cost the automaker $73 billion over the past decade. That's money GM could have spent making its models better than Toyota's. In fact, it's such a vast sum that it equals nearly 10 years' worth of R&D budgets, GM execs say. Health-care costs alone add $1,200 to the cost of each car GM builds in the United States. By contrast, Toyota's health-care costs are about $200 per car. The upshot: Toyota has a stunning $1,800 profit-per-car advantage over GM in the United States, says Harbour-Felax

straight up facts.

debate the reasons not the writing.

Toyota has $36 billion of cash on hand and a stock-market value of more than $200 billion. That's 12 times what GM shares are worth.

same

Lately, that's included bad press for a NASCAR cheating scandal and, most painfully, negative news about a rash of recalls

.

GM chairman Rick Wagoner, no stranger to bad press, feels Toyota's pain. "We are becoming more alike than different,"

GM has given the go-ahead to the 150-miles-per-gallon Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid that lit up the Detroit Auto Show this year. It's proceeding despite the fact that the batteries needed to run the Volt haven't really been invented, or at least perfected, yet. But GM R&D chief Larry Burns is confident the batteries will be ready in time for the Volt to hit the road in about four years. Burns now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: "If we could turn back the hands of time," says Burns, "we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier." Just like that old prototype, the Volt won't generate immediate profits. But times have changed. "We're the underdog now," explains GM VP Mark LaNeve. "So you're more willing to take risks." Better late than never.

maybe its the opposite?..if i liked toyota.

[bowtie_dude]

The problem with Toyota's hybrids is that they no longer come with a nice tax refund anymore.

Chief Editor from Forbes magazine was on the Today Show this morning talking about tax credits and said, "Buy a hybrid car, but not a Toyota or Lexus because they've sold too many and no longer qualify for the tax credit."

[gm4life]

Seriously who wrote this? Really this is the most biased piece of $h! article I have ever heard. Toyota's Prius is slow selling they are all over dealers lots. The only models that save them are Camry's and Corolla's! This is all based on theory GM is still outselling Toyota this year so far. Today has been a real downer, American Idol was bad and now this $h!y article. Wait until the new Malibu, G8, Enclave, and GMT-900 HD's get out on the lots. Someone won't be laughing anymore... GM is bringing it in a big way, this is just a half-cocked twisted way to keep moral up at Toyota while the new Tundra has been a somewhat so seller along with various others. Mr K. has no clue what he is taking about with the Impala thing RETAIL SALES ARE WAY UP! And FLEET SALES DOWN, especially daily rental sales the ones GM doesn't want. Think about it for a minute, more and more Camry's are coming with bar codes in the back window, gee wonder what that means... MMMMMM I think I do RENTAL'S! I saw a ton of them!

Edited March 7, 2007 by gm4life

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

FOG- You know its O.K. to have a difference of opinion. You don't have to be such a big f@#king crybaby about it.

LOL... Most of my article crtitique was meant to be in a sarcastic tone.

I guess maybe you haven't been around C&G very long and don't remember the "old FOG" posts where I used to shred articles just for the hell of it. At the very least it's funny and you can't deny the arguments I raised. I figured people would enjoy seeing me go 'schizo' on an article just like the good ole days (And most of them did) I mean... After all, the article is complete and total bull$h!, so why not have some fun?

The fact that this piece is just a bunch of fluff is VERY, painfully apparent. Even the average 'know-nothing-about-the-auto-industry' can see that.

Edited March 7, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Take the test:

http://www.prozac.com/common_pages/self_assessment.jsp

Prozac is used for depression, not anger. How many times do I have to tell you that?

I find it funny that you won't reply to any of my quibs anywhere but in this section, and then when you do it is to defend an asian company. No surprise there.

What's even funnier is that your job is pretty 'removed' from things and therefore I don't understand where this passion to defend Toyota & Co. comes from. I mean, if you were actually part of the import humping media, then I maybe could understand, but whatever I guess.

Edited March 7, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, guys, I work in the front lines and I can tell you that the propoganda is REAL and it is working. Customer after customer with solid, good running American cars are defecting to "imports" because they are "better." I am currently in a struggle with a 70 year old woman who has a 2003 Alero that, by her own admission, has been a great car. Her son is directing her to Honda. When asked why the imports are better, invariably you get stonewalled or a shrug. When I pull our my arsenal (articles and pieces I have copied from various sources, largely found via Cheers and Gears) I usually get a shocked look. Why, this 70 year old lady asked, don't we read any of this in the "maintstream" news.

That, I replied, is the $64,000 question. Why, indeed?

Despite this waste-of-time-fluff piece we have just read, it is by no means a far-gone conclusion that Toyota is destined to become King of the Universe. Eighteen months ago, I would have granted you that; however, the public is very fickle and the tide can change. For one thing, GM has a far bigger market share than Japan Inc in both Europe, China and South America. This fluff piece is too American-centric, much like Detroit's thinking. The sooner Detroit stops thinking of NOrth America as special, the better off we all will be.

I agree...

It'll take some time, but as long as GM continues to execute like they are doing now, I think they'll be alright.

If not, then I guess we can "celebrate" the destruction of another great american icon through "superior" products and "informed" consumers

[Mr.Krinkle]

why didnt you respond to my other post?

Hostile Media Effect

also see confirmation bias you tool.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[CARBIZ]

Well, I am glad you feel you have to be Defender of the Faith, but IMO Toyota has no lack of True Believers who will attack and slash GM, Ford or anyone else who dares suggest that it is not by divine right that Toyota will become #1 in sales around the world. I am not one of those believers.

Although it is true that events of the past 18 months or so have become so obvious that SOME media outlets have let up on their constant GM-bashing, there is still a nauseating amount of pro-Japan Inc media out there.

You, Mr. Krinkle are truly privileged if you have not been exposed to (unfortunately) Canada's biggest "news"paper, the Toronto Star and their continuous Toyota humping.

Those of us who are old enough to remember a time when Toyopets were a freakish anomoly and watched in horror as the tide of Japan Inc washed over us - we are not easily fooled. What Toyota has done in the past 30 years and how it has done it would be admirable, except that our two countries are so stupid as to sit back and just let it happen.

It is interesting that on the one hand, so-called enthusiasts in the media will decry GM's lack of available manual transmissions in vehicles like the Malibu, then bitch that there is "only" a 4 spd automatic available - while they are driving their foreign built BMW, I might add, then attack GM for not building hybrids fast enough. It seems that it doesn't matter which side of the media you are on, Detroit can't catch a break.

I, for one, am totally sick of the media. Whether it is the Iraq war, global warming, or Japan's INc's victories, the media is biased and grossly unfair. Whether on the Right or the Left, they all have agendas.

I guess it just depends on whether their agenda happens to be your agenda, too.

[Satty]

I'm going to go ahead and recommend a lot of diazepam.

[bowtie_dude]

FOG needs a horse's dose of valium.

[Mr.Krinkle]

FOG needs a horse's dose of valium.

He needs to get his head out of the horses ass first.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Well, I am glad you feel you have to be Defender of the Faith, but IMO Toyota has no lack of True Believers who will attack and slash GM, Ford or anyone else who dares suggest that it is not by divine right that Toyota will become #1 in sales around the world. I am not one of those believers.

Although it is true that events of the past 18 months or so have become so obvious that SOME media outlets have let up on their constant GM-bashing, there is still a nauseating amount of pro-Japan Inc media out there.

You, Mr. Krinkle are truly privileged if you have not been exposed to (unfortunately) Canada's biggest "news"paper, the Toronto Star and their continuous Toyota humping.

Those of us who are old enough to remember a time when Toyopets were a freakish anomoly and watched in horror as the tide of Japan Inc washed over us - we are not easily fooled. What Toyota has done in the past 30 years and how it has done it would be admirable, except that our two countries are so stupid as to sit back and just let it happen.

It is interesting that on the one hand, so-called enthusiasts in the media will decry GM's lack of available manual transmissions in vehicles like the Malibu, then bitch that there is "only" a 4 spd automatic available - while they are driving their foreign built BMW, I might add, then attack GM for not building hybrids fast enough. It seems that it doesn't matter which side of the media you are on, Detroit can't catch a break.

I, for one, am totally sick of the media. Whether it is the Iraq war, global warming, or Japan's INc's victories, the media is biased and grossly unfair. Whether on the Right or the Left, they all have agendas.

I guess it just depends on whether their agenda happens to be your agenda, too.

From my experience its usually the places that are telling you something is "biased" are the ones that are biased.

This is not the article to try and prove that this phenomena exists.

People are Biased. You are right about the Star, I have not been subjected to it.

[Cory Wolfe]

I actually didn't see what was all that wrong with FOG's post for once... He brought up good points, I thought... *shrugs*

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

why didnt you respond to my other post?

Because I didn't even care enough to read it.

Ive been around here long enough to know you are full of $h! and are not funny or sarcastic. You did not shred anything. Right from your opening--The prius sold more than the cobalt. Its up 40% over last year.

LOL... Wow, this is the first time anyone has ever posted toward me in the very same manner I use. KUDOS! I just can't believe you still have your panties up your ass after I told you to take what I wrote in jest.

I never said anything about sales of Prius vs. Cobalt. That's not the point in the first place. The point is, assuming that

"GM is in this situation compared to Toyota" based on the Prius alone is ignorant and ill informed. 1) The Prius doesn't turn much volume and the htbrid market is a niche. 2) The ONLY reason to even produce a hybrid is for PR purposes as even Toyota will tell you that they do not make much profit, if any, on Prius sales. Now, had the article started with something like "The difference between Toyota and GM can be summed up by the Camry and the fact that Toyota has executed it miraculously while GM has put out subpar W-Body after awkward Epsilon for the last 10 years" then it might hold some merit. But stating that Toyota's success and MASSIVE profits came on the back of one, low production hybrid that has only been on sale for a few years is just ludicris.

They charge premiums and have waiting lists.

Bull$h!.. The Prius is currently (or was currently seeing) high inventories as well as incentives. My dealer alone had 50 in stock around Christmas and was even advertising specials.

They inspired stories evaluating the cost and the savings to see if it is worth it.

Which it is not.

Only now did the govt take away the tax rebates. They must be biased against toyota.

We can only hope... It's about time american automakers gain a bit of consideration from the american government.

I will not bother with the rest because it falls on deaf ears.

Welcome to the world of being a domestic car fan where EVERYTHING positive about Detroit falls on deaf ears.

I can and i did. You sound like a complete fool. there is no fluff. it was a balanced piece that showed no preference for GM or Toyota.

WTF ever... Anybody with half a brain can see it was a marketing effort for Toyota, the scripted Sierra interview, slant and tone of the article as well as confirmation pole alone are enough to show that.

The only thing that is painfully apparent is that you sound like an oaf and you make my eyes sad as i read through your blathering.

Nobody said you had to read it. Besides, it's my opinion, you know the very thing you defended in the very first line of your first post against me. REMEMBER?

FOG- You know its O.K. to have a difference of opinion. You don't have to be such a big f@#king crybaby about it.

So maybe you should take your own advice. But, that seems to be typical of import sympathy camps. Whats good for domestics and domestic fans is never shown in the same light when the tables are turned.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

...and so you know, prozac is used to treat a multitude of disorders but im sure you knew that too.

Yes, I did... And that doesn't change the fact that it is not used to treat anger.

you can LOL all you want but the fact is if someone says something remotely positive about toyota, that differs from your warped pov, even when it is factual, they are taking sides and are traitors.

Give me a break... LOL

For the past 3-4 years nothing BUT positive $h! has been said about Toyota. It's to the point that even Toyota fans want to puke everytime they read the lastest ass-kiss piece from the media. Everyone is getting tired of Toyota being painted as the second coming. And BTW, I'm a former mod of a GM fansite that has FUTURE and GM in my name. What the hell about that situation even remotely suggests that my point of view is going to be or is intended to be unbiased? Especially when I'm in "The Other Guys" section RANTING about an article on Toyota.

just for the hell of it--how many people are in on this? and theyve managed to keep it secret for so long..except from the keen mind of FOG aka the Columbo of cheers and gears.

I never suggested a conspiracy theory and I could go into the sociology of the matter as to why I think the media and americans in general are biased, but I'm sure you know that since you've been throwing up links to things the entire thread (Which BTW, I have yet to even open) and for the record, I hate Columbo.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Because I didn't even care enough to read it.

LOL... Wow, this is the first time anyone has ever posted toward me in the very same manner I use. KUDOS! I just can't believe you still have your panties up your ass after I told you to take what I wrote in jest.

I never said anything about sales of Prius vs. Cobalt. That's not the point in the first place. The point is, assuming that

"GM is in this situation compared to Toyota" based on the Prius alone is ignorant and ill informed. 1) The Prius doesn't turn much volume and the htbrid market is a niche. 2) The ONLY reason to even produce a hybrid is for PR purposes as even Toyota will tell you that they do not make much profit, if any, on Prius sales. Now, had the article started with something like "The difference between Toyota and GM can be summed up by the Camry and the fact that Toyota has executed it miraculously while GM has put out subpar W-Body after awkward Epsilon for the last 10 years" then it might hold some merit. But stating that Toyota's success and MASSIVE profits came on the back of one, low production hybrid that has only been on sale for a few years is just ludicris.

Bull$h!.. The Prius is currently (or was currently seeing) high inventories as well as incentives. My dealer alone had 50 in stock around Christmas and was even advertising specials.

Which it is not.

We can only hope... It's about time american automakers gain a bit of consideration from the american government.

Welcome to the world of being a domestic car fan where EVERYTHING positive about Detroit falls on deaf ears.

WTF ever... Anybody with half a brain can see it was a marketing effort for Toyota, the scripted Sierra interview, slant and tone of the article as well as confirmation pole alone are enough to show that.

Nobody said you had to read it. Besides, it's my opinion, you know the very thing you defended in the very first line of your first post against me. REMEMBER?

So maybe you should take your own advice. But, that seems to be typical of import sympathy camps. Whats good for domestics and domestic fans is never shown in the same light when the tables are turned.

never said anything about the prius?

BULL$h!!

The Prius (Now a slow selling, incentivized model) had hardly anything to do with the current state of affairs and it's ignorant on all levels to imply that it did. The volume is marginal, it has been plagued with PR and quality problems and the technology is hardly "cutting edge" at this point. The ONLY difference the Prius *MIGHT* have made is that it started the media 'jacking off' over everything Toyota does (Much like this article) and thus resulted in a ton of good PR for Toyota (Most of it NOT DESERVED) and subsequent BAD PR for GM and Ford (Most of it NOT DESERVED)

your head is so far up your ass you dont even know what you are saying half the time.

its volume inconsequential? ok buddy. the halo effect even gives the appearance of being a green co. even as it rolls out the gas guzzling trucks. --quoted from the story.

sounds pretty damned biased to me. thats sarcasm

everything else

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzz

you are the one who seeks the bias. grow up and get it together or lose it forever, pal.

you sound like a sore loser and as a GM owner and fan i wouldnt want anyone reading your whiny bs.

open the links, all two of them-more sarcasm- read what i wrote and pull your head out of your ass then come back to me.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[BrewSwillis]

Prius' new option: Incentives for buyers

Toyota finds it has to work to sell the hybrid icon as greater supply, more hybrid competition, loss of tax credit require it to offer incentives for first time.

By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer

February 8 2007: 2:13 PM EST

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/08/news/compa...sales/index.htm

[Mr.Krinkle]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/08/news/compa...sales/index.htm

i usualy dont click on links but

From the time the current version was introduced in the fall of 2003 through October 2006, the average turn rate for the Prius ranged from 5 to 11 days.

"It was repeatedly an all star in turn rate, either No. 1 or No. 2," said Tom Libby. Still, he said that the Prius has a quicker turn rate than Toyota's companywide average of 33 days for its U.S. sales, and sells much faster than the industrywide average of 66 days.

from the same article. i guess with a headline like that they still had to go out of their way to show how awesome that cars been selling just to stick it to detroit because Toyotas are so good and they want GM to fail.

im guessing you didnt find a story so clearly biased against toyota in the mainstream media? someone must have fallen asleep at the switch.

btw, personally, i think the car is a piece of crap but there is no denying what it has done to the market and for toyota right or wrong. people want it and up until

combination of lower gasoline prices, the loss of some tax credits for buyers of Toyota hybrids and a greater range of hybrid offerings from both Toyota and its competitors,

has led to:

waiting lists and above-sticker pricing are essentially gone. The Prius is no longer one of the nation's 10-fastest selling vehicles, the way it was for most of the last three-plus years.

all the information is there. it just depends on how you perceive and interpret it.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[andy82471]

Wow both Mr. Krinkle and FOG needs to chill out. This kind of back and forth sniping doesn't help. Interestingly, now that gas prices in our area is approaching $2.50 for regular, the demand for Prius seems to be growing as well. My freind, who also happens to be a Toyota salesman, told me two days ago all the Priuses in his lot has been taken and there are four customers on backorders. I guess the price of gas determines everything. GM should bring the VOLT to the market ASAP. That car looks so much better than the Azteck ugly Prius.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

never said anything about the prius?

As my reply that you quoted said, I never mentioned Prius vs. Cobalt and never did I say that I didn't mention the Prius.

your head is so far up your ass you dont even know what you are saying half the time.

Judging by the above quote and your reaction to the article in general, maybe it's just that you can't read

you are the one who seeks the bias. grow up and get it together or lose it forever, pal.

you sound like a sore loser and as a GM owner and fan i wouldnt want anyone reading your whiny bs.

Umm, okay. I'm not even sure how to reply to the first part... I seek bias? Sure, but in order to seek it must exist.

So you admit that GM is a loser? Maybe that's where the problem lies and that's why you're willing to accept every fluff piece you read about Toyota as gospel.

open the links, all two of them-more sarcasm- read what i wrote and pull your head out of your ass then come back to me.

I'm pretty much done with it now. As andy said, we're pretty much I feel as if we've already turned this thread into a grudge match which is where, I for one, didn't want it to go.

So, peace out.

Edited March 8, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[evok]

BULL$h!!

The Prius (Now a slow selling, incentivized model) had hardly anything to do with the current state of affairs and it's ignorant on all levels to imply that it did. The volume is marginal, it has been plagued with PR and quality problems and the technology is hardly "cutting edge" at this point. The ONLY difference the Prius *MIGHT* have made is that it started the media 'jacking off' over everything Toyota does (Much like this article) and thus resulted in a ton of good PR for Toyota (Most of it NOT DESERVED) and subsequent BAD PR for GM and Ford (Most of it NOT DESERVED)

To all:

As has been already pointed out Prius sales are up in 2007 compared to 2006. Not only that but Toyota's total hybrid sales are up in 2007. Let me state another fact, Toyota sold almost 20,000 hybrid vehicles in Febuary of 2007. That is not spin but an absolute fact. What I just wrote is public information and is available here on CG as a matter of another fact. For another fact, Prius sales are up year to date 6000 vehicles and sales have been pretty consistent over the recent months. Look it up the data is on CG.

Do you want more facts.

GM lost 10 B USD in 2005

GM will probably loose 5 B USD in 2006

Why don't I know exactly how much GM lost in 2006?

Because of the fact GM has accounting issues and has yet to release their annual report or any official guidance.

It is a fact that GM's market cap is app 20B USD compared to Toyota's value of over 200B USD.

It is a fact that Toyota made 13B USD in profit last year.

It is a fact that if GM did not purchase a controlling interest in Daewoo, Toyota would have already surpassed GM's global sales lead.

It is a fact that GM announced they are closing 3 large general assembly plants in the US (OK City, Doreville GA, Osh II.)

It is a fact that Toyota has opened a new truck plant in Texas and has just announced a new plant in the southern US.

It is a fact that according to major and accept quality studies GM still trails Toyota.

It is a fact GM has lost over a million sales in the past 3 years.

It is a fact Toyota has increase their sales by about a million since 2000.

It is a fact GM has inflated their car sales by fleeting upwards of 30%.

It is a fact Toyota does not fleet more than 10% of their sales in the US. And in reality it is alot less than 10%. But I did not feel the need to compute the exact percentage and I wanted to keep my fact straight.

Now I pose the question, on paper, which is a better run, operated, consistent company based upon the facts? Toyota or GM.

Sorry but the facts are not BULL$h!.

PS - According to recent Auto News publication there are no cash incentives on the Prius but they do have special finance interest rates of 2.9% for up to 60 months. Also, the tax credits as a percent deduction are based upon a the number of hybrids sold by a manufacturer and time. People buying the Prius or other Toyota hybrid product today are not eligible for the full tax credit.

Damn those pesky facts again.

Edited March 8, 2007 by evok

[Satty]

Evok, quit messing with the man's delusional alternate reality. All of that stuff is because of the media. Black helicopters, grassy knolls, the truth is out there, you just have to be able to see it.

:rolleyes:

Edited March 8, 2007 by Satty

[Mr.Krinkle]

a million extra sales over 3 years for toyota.

the prius has been on sale roughly 3 years. sold approx 50k in 04, 100k in 05,

another 100k in 06 and in ought 7 on pace for more.

thats more than a 1/4 of those million sales. Id say that volume is marginal. Those people shopping for a hybrid 2 or 3 years ago probably would have bought a hybrid from GM, or Nissan if they were offered. It was an untapped market. Anyone know how many hybrids GM sold in 04?

and unless you are a city who bought a bus the answer does not matter.

That was an aspect GM failed to capitalize on.

the facts really speak for themselves and i admit i should have not responded to the inflammatory remarks in kind. so on that note, ill just let FOG speak for himself from now on.

The Prius (Now a slow selling, incentivized model)had hardly anything to do with the current state of affairs and it's ignorant on all levels to imply that it did.

The volume is marginal, it has been plagued with PR and quality problems and the technology is hardly "cutting edge" at this point.

and the contradiction

The ONLY difference the Prius *MIGHT* have made is that it started the media 'jacking off' over everything Toyota does Much like this article) and thus resulted in a ton of good PR for Toyota (Most of it NOT DESERVED) and subsequent BAD PR for GM and Ford (Most of it NOT DESERVED)

This is what GM is up against. You can bitch about the truth of the matter and what is actually occuring or as quoted straight from the headline of the story:

How GM plans to fight back.

As has been already pointed out Prius sales are up in 2007 compared to 2006. Not only that but Toyota's total hybrid sales are up in 2007. Let me state another fact, Toyota sold almost 20,000 hybrid vehicles in Febuary of 2007. That is not spin but an absolute fact. What I just wrote is public information and is available here on CG as a matter of another fact. For another fact, Prius sales are up year to date 6000 vehicles and sales have been pretty consistent over the recent months. Look it up the data is on CG.

Do you want more facts.

GM lost 10 B USD in 2005

GM will probably loose 5 B USD in 2006

Why don't I know exactly how much GM lost in 2006?

Because of the fact GM has accounting issues and has yet to release their annual report or any official guidance.

It is a fact that GM's market cap is app 20B USD compared to Toyota's value of over 200B USD.

It is a fact that Toyota made 13B USD in profit last year.

It is a fact that if GM did not purchase a controlling interest in Daewoo, Toyota would have already surpassed GM's global sales lead.

It is a fact that GM announced they are closing 3 large general assembly plants in the US (OK City, Doreville GA, Osh II.)

It is a fact that Toyota has opened a new truck plant in Texas and has just announced a new plant in the southern US.

It is a fact that according to major and accept quality studies GM still trails Toyota.

It is a fact GM has lost over a million sales in the past 3 years.

It is a fact Toyota has increase their sales by about a million since 2000.

It is a fact GM has inflated their car sales by fleeting upwards of 30%.

It is a fact Toyota does not fleet more than 10% of their sales in the US. And in reality it is alot less than 10%. But I did not feel the need to compute the exact percentage and I wanted to keep my fact straight.

Now I pose the question, on paper, which is a better run, operated, consistent company based upon the facts? Toyota or GM.

Sorry but the facts are not BULL$h!.

PS - According to recent Auto News publication there are no cash incentives on the Prius but they do have special finance interest rates of 2.9% for up to 60 months. Also, the tax credits as a percent deduction are based upon a the number of hybrids sold by a manufacturer and time. People buying the Prius or other Toyota hybrid product today are not eligible for the full tax credit.

Damn those pesky facts again.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[BrewSwillis]

i usualy dont click on links but

from the same article. i guess with a headline like that they still had to go out of their way to show how awesome that cars been selling just to stick it to detroit because Toyotas are so good and they want GM to fail.

im guessing you didnt find a story so clearly biased against toyota in the mainstream media? someone must have fallen asleep at the switch.

btw, personally, i think the car is a piece of crap but there is no denying what it has done to the market and for toyota right or wrong. people want it and up until

has led to:

all the information is there. it just depends on how you perceive and interpret it.

You found your soundbites, now read these from the same article. Remember, the original argument was about the slowing of sales incentives:

You can find two new things at Toyota dealerships: a supply of Prius available for sale, and incentives to attract buyers to the fuel efficiency icon.

.

The Prius is no longer one of the nation's 10-fastest selling vehicles, the way it was for most of the last three-plus years.

Industry averages include very slow selling vehicles. The Prius is no longer in the top 10 fastest selling.

So the company is offering incentives such as low lease rates or zero-interest financing it never had to use before.

.

In January 2006, Prius sales made up about two-thirds of Toyota's hybrid sales, and about half of U.S. hybrid sales nationwide. But the introduction and growing availability of other hybrid models have cut its share to just over half of Toyota's hybrid sales in January, and just over 40 percent of U.S. hybrid sales.

.

Right now it's offering zero-percent financing over two years for a Prius, and other below-market rates for longer-term loans. It also is offering a $219 a month 36-month lease for the Prius.

.

And, the best quote:

"Remember economically for the consumer it doesn't work," said Libby. "But they want to be perceived as environmentally friendly."

[Mr.Krinkle]

You found your soundbites, now read these from the same article. Remember, the original argument was about the slowing of sales incentives:

.

Industry averages include very slow selling vehicles. The Prius is no longer in the top 10 fastest selling.

.

.

.

And, the best quote:

that was my point. it was tongue in cheek. But the reality is as soon as the gas goes up again so will the sales.

and more importantly, the halo effect still resonates with consumers. And someone correct me if i m wrong but i do not think selling days is a good method of measuring.

not the top 10 but still selling well. Just because someone saw 50 sitting on a lot in their town doesnt account for the 19,950 that have been sold this year. The tax rebates are gone finally because they sold so damn many.

and also, as noted above, they are offering special finance interest rates of 2.9% for up to 60 months. What remains to be seen is how the market accepts GM's entries.

and not for nothing, its still selling 100k units a year. I can think of a few normal cars that it outsells.

What pisses me off about the prius is the GM hybrid buses out do the prius in green-ness, difference being you cant own one and no one knows about them. That was something that could have been used to their advantage but never was for whatever reason. and i think its too late now.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Flybrian]

Sorry but I gotta go, Elvis and myself are meeting for dinner.

Tell Jimmy Hoffa I know where the Loch Ness Monster lives now. Its Atlantis. Good gambling there.

[Mr.Krinkle]

LOL

And really - I landed in New Mexico in 1957.

that was you? thanks for the lasers, computers, and fiber optics. dont know where we would be without them.

You are a credit to your lifeform

George Bush approved the launch of cruise missils into both Trade Centers and the Pentagon.

actually, one correction here. Only the pentagon was hit with a cruise missile. We have video of planes

hitting the the towers. what you dont know is that flight 93 was supposed to hit wtc 7. It never made it there and thats why when the explosions went off and collapsed it was suspicious.

ps tell the lindberg baby tip toe through the tulips. hell know :AH-HA_wink:

I can remember the fourth of July,

Runnin' through the backwood bare.

And I can still hear my old hound dog barkin',

Chasin' down a hoodoo there.

Chasin' down a hoodoo there.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Intrepidation]

that was you? thanks for the lasers, computers, and fiber optics. dont know where we would be without them.

You are a credit to your lifeform

actually, one correction here. Only the pentagon was hit with a cruise missile. We have video of planes

hitting the the towers. what you dont know is that flight 93 was supposed to hit wtc 7. It never made it there and thats why when the explosions went off and collapsed it was suspicious.

They have video footage of one of the planes hitting the Pentagon.

[BrewSwillis]

BTW: Your last 5 lines reminded me of some crazy old coot that likes Wild Turkey. I wonder where he has been?

Maybe a CCR concert??

[Satty]

Actually the Linbergh baby was my bad. I left him in the car while I tied Amelia Earhart up and ravaged her in just the way she liked. Ended up being a bad night for both of them.

[Mr.Krinkle]

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse. :AH-HA_wink:

and never forget: just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they aren't out to get you.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Bimmer325]

Whatever happened to razoredge?

I don't think he contributed a single comprehendible post on C&G. I'm sure he'd have something to say right about now.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks FOG, loved every sarcastic jab of it.

Glad you're still here!

[balthazar]

Whatever happened to razoredge? I don't think he contributed a single comprehendible post on C&G.

Sure he did, but of course; comprehension is all on the other end...