Trailer Boats: 2007 Tow Vehicle of the Year

[SingleStylish]

I doubt someone on this board would be having a fit, now that Toyota is on his turf.

I beg your pardon but, The new Tundra IS being built in Mexico! :AH-HA_wink:

[SingleStylish]

I doubt someone on this board would be having a fit, now that Toyota is on his turf.

I beg your pardon but, The new Tundra IS being built in Mexico! :AH-HA_wink:

[balthazar]

>>"it is obvious that Toyota set out to out muscle and imitate the "tough truck" image of the Dodge Ram. Their target is real. "<<

In this segment, toyota has a negative connotation; merely targeting the existing competition is not enough- toyota has to surpass the class leader by a wide margin if they hope to post a major gain.

There; how often have we read that ultimatim regarding the mid-size sedan segment? Shoe's on the other foot here.

>>"The point EVERYONE needs to hear is this, GM has NEVER been about tough truck image. GM's trucks have always been for the conservative truck user. For the longest time, most who needed a 3/4 ton turned to another manufacturer like Ford or Dodge for the lack of a beefy chasis and disiel engine."<<

Interesting theory, but it doesn't hold much water. Dodge was barely alive until '94 when the then-new Ram debuted; kick-starting the segment. Before that Dodge truck sales were a spec in the rearview, and HD Dodge sales a miniscule percentage of that. No one was turning to Dodge over Chevy/GMC for a "tough" truck.

And while Ford has sold more F-Series trucks (F-150 thru F-550 in current model heirarchy) than Chevrolet alone for many years, GM has sold millions of HD Chevy & GMC trucks, because they work and work well. Around here- there are precious few pre mid-80s Ford trucks on the road, but I still see a surprising quantity of Chevys. I haven't seen more than a single pre-'94 Ram in I don't know how long.

[Drew Dowdell]

They will outsell the Dodge Ram this year. Mark my words!

Isn't the Fridgeline outselling the Dodge Ram this year?

[SingleStylish]

>>"it is obvious that Toyota set out to out muscle and imitate the "tough truck" image of the Dodge Ram. Their target is real. "<<

In this segment, toyota has a negative connotation; merely targeting the existing competition is not enough- toyota has to surpass the class leader by a wide margin if they hope to post a major gain.

There; how often have we read that ultimatim regarding the mid-size sedan segment? Shoe's on the other foot here.

>>"The point EVERYONE needs to hear is this, GM has NEVER been about tough truck image. GM's trucks have always been for the conservative truck user. For the longest time, most who needed a 3/4 ton turned to another manufacturer like Ford or Dodge for the lack of a beefy chasis and disiel engine."<<

Interesting theory, but it doesn't hold much water. Dodge was barely alive until '94 when the then-new Ram debuted; kick-starting the segment. Before that Dodge truck sales were a spec in the rearview, and HD Dodge sales a miniscule percentage of that. No one was turning to Dodge over Chevy/GMC for a "tough" truck.

And while Ford has sold more F-Series trucks (F-150 thru F-550 in current model heirarchy) than Chevrolet alone for many years, GM has sold millions of HD Chevy & GMC trucks, because they work and work well. Around here- there are precious few pre mid-80s Ford trucks on the road, but I still see a surprising quantity of Chevys. I haven't seen more than a single pre-'94 Ram in I don't know how long.

While I respect your views, I disagree. Toyota, much like the Rams last changeover in '02, bests the segment leaders in engine and transmission offerings. It has the goods. Image is a whole other story that Toyota is working on, look no further than the Toyota add mentioning "real truckers know..."

On the 3/4-ton note. I'll agree there are an awful lot of C1500 Chevy's, Tahoes, and Suburbans from previous era's but... the 3/4-ton was a joke. A couple more leaf springs and a detroit desiel built from a 350 was a joke. Chevy knew this since they started offering it. The only other engine option was the 350 gas which was also available in the C1500. Most around these parts through the early 90's bought Ford Internation or Dodge Cummins products. In the heavy hauling (under 1 ton) segment GM lagged. That's why GM debuted the Silverado 2500 much like a half ton with same engines but, a bump in under pinnings THEN released the 2500HD in 2001 with 6.0L, 6.6L (D), and 8.0L offerings. THAT my friend is when GM got serious about that segment.

As far as my arguement, GM never has been about machismo in this segment. Ford and lately Dodge have tried to sell trucks like diet supplements. "Faster, Leaner, Beefier." Ford adds touting "6 lag bolts hold our bed on in this F150 [hanging upside down]." Dodge Ram adds "Yeah its got a HEMI." Or Nissan with the Titan running in the desert with an engine strapped in the back. Meanwhile, Chevy adds showing a father and son working the fields when the younger son shows up with a new Silverado and they all wax philosophic on Chevy's.

Chevy sells on a solid record and lineage more than a "tough truck" image.

[Drew Dowdell]

Chevy sells on a solid record and lineage more than a "tough truck" image.

Like a rock?

[balthazar]

>>"...Toyota, much like the Rams last changeover in '02, bests the segment leaders in engine and transmission offerings. It has the goods. Image is a whole other story that Toyota is working on..."<<

If you stick to the 1/2-ton only category, on paper, the toyota seems to be for the most part; competitive. A 0.02% towing capacity advantage is meaningless in this segment (as opposed to the same margin of advantage in the sedan segment).

If you look at full-size trucks by make in general, then obviously toyota is severly lacking in both models & powertrains.

>>"On the 3/4-ton note. I'll agree there are an awful lot of C1500 Chevy's, Tahoes, and Suburbans from previous era's but... the 3/4-ton was a joke. A couple more leaf springs and a detroit desiel built from a 350 was a joke. Chevy knew this since they started offering it. The only other engine option was the 350 gas which was also available in the C1500. Most around these parts through the early 90's bought Ford Internation or Dodge Cummins products. In the heavy hauling (under 1 ton) segment GM lagged. That's why GM debuted the Silverado 2500 much like a half ton with same engines but, a bump in under pinnings THEN released the 2500HD in 2001 with 6.0L, 6.6L (D), and 8.0L offerings. THAT my friend is when GM got serious about that segment."<<

In the '80s, there also was the 454 still available (it was at least up to '86). Pretty damned sure the 379 (6.2L) diesel had nothing to do with the 350 whatsoever, tho I have not verified that.

But what really did Ford have engine-wise: the 302, the 351 & the 460- none of them major barn burners either. Ford's 6.9 diesel was regarded more highly than Chevy's, true, but the gas engines overall were very competitive between the 2. Dodge only had the Slant Six, 318 & the 360.

But no arguments on the '01 & up 2500HD: I have an '04 6.6 and it's an over-engineered monster.

>>"Chevy sells on a solid record and lineage more than a "tough truck" image."<<

Gotcha: I interpreted your earlier post to mean actual truck toughness, not advertising image.

Edited March 9, 2007 by balthazar