Meeting Fuel Economy Standards Could Cost GM $40B

[ehaase]

Articles like this keep me from getting too enthused about 400 hp Camaros and 650 hp Corvettes.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...mplate=printart

Bush fuel standards would cost industry $100 billion over seven years, Congress hears today

David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau

President Bush's fuel economy proposal would cost the automotive industry $100 billion between 2010 and 2017, U.S. Rep. Fred Upton, R-St. Joseph, testified today before the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

General Motors Corp. alone would spend $40 billion in that period to attain the fuel mileage gains proposed by Bush in his January State of the Union address, Upton said he was told in a briefing by GM. The estimated tab would be $8.4 billion for Toyota Motor Corp. and $4 billion for Honda Motor Co., he said.

Bush has called for reducing gasoline consumption 20 percent by 2017 and increasing fuel economy an average 4 percent annually beginning in 2009 for passenger cars and 2011 for light trucks.

Upton was testifying in a series of hearings called by committee chair and U.S. Rep. John Dingell, D-Dearborn.

Dingell has pledged to have at leasteight more hearings on fuel economy mandates and climate change over the next six weeks as he attempt to forge a compromise to Bush's plan yet still address the problem of greenhouse gas emissions.

Auto executives will testify March 14. Former Vice President Al Gore will testify in both the House and Senate on March 21.

Nicole Nason, chief of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, also testified today.

She essentially took a step back from the 4 percent target, saying it was just a goal based on rough estimates and may not be achievable. NHTSA wants all automakers to provide the agency with their product plans for 2010-2017 so the agency can better assess the cost and other impacts on automakers of the fuel proposal as Bush outlined it.

[CSpec]

If the government wants to protect people from themselves or their ignorance, this is the wrong way to do it. They are punishing the manufacturers for making products people want to buy. I'm not advocating this, but imposing a healthy tax on fuel would be a much better solution than requiring higher mileage. Fuel demand is very inelastic, so the deadweight loss would be minimal compared to other taxes, and it would generate large amounts of revenue for the government. However, this is a long term solution as it would take years for people to buy more fuel efficient cars.

[Northstar]

I don't understand how Bush thinks they can increase MPG by 4% every year. That would require new technology year after year after year on basically everything, which is quite obviously not going to happen.

As for 650HP Vettes and 400HP Camaros... well, I think they will sell in such small quantities that it won't affect CAFE that much. The Z06 gets 26MPG highway, so I think it's more trucks than cars (hi-power or not) that need to see the big improvements.

[ellives]

If the government wants to protect people from themselves or their ignorance, this is the wrong way to do it. They are punishing the manufacturers for making products people want to buy. I'm not advocating this, but imposing a healthy tax on fuel would be a much better solution than requiring higher mileage. Fuel demand is very inelastic, so the deadweight loss would be minimal compared to other taxes, and it would generate large amounts of revenue for the government. However, this is a long term solution as it would take years for people to buy more fuel efficient cars.

This is exactly the way to do it..... by increasing the gasoline tax. People will buy more efficient vehicles when the cost to run the less efficient ones gets painful. Why Bush's advisors don't tell him this tells volumes of why he's one of the worst presidents of the history of this country.

[loki]

unless more and more hybrids are made, 4% will be quite tough and cause lots of inflation in the auto market.

other wise vehicles will have to be sold with anemic engines with the way safety and everything will keep adding weight,

hopefully we will never see a castrated vette put to market just to meet mileage requirements.

[Derek77]

Come on people, lets get real. He doesn't do anything to increase mileage, he's the worst president in history. He does something to increase mileage, he's the worst president in history. Anything he does or doesn't do is going to get him into trouble. He's damned because he didn't win the popular vote in 2000, plain as day. What is going in your life for him to be called the worst president in history? Yea, he's done some dumb things, which one hasn't. Because he wants to increase mileage by 4% for x number of years he's the worst? I don't like the idea of increasing CAFE myself. Let the free capitalist market decide. I would like to know how they came up with these prices. Are you going to tell me that GM was planning on using the same powertrains for the next decade, and now since Bush proposed an increase to the CAFE, GM will have to spend $40B to comply. BS

[Drew Dowdell]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'll take a 225hp/370ft/lbs turbodiesel CTS any day GM wants to make one for me.

[ellives]

Come on people, lets get real. He doesn't do anything to increase mileage, he's the worst president in history. He does something to increase mileage, he's the worst president in history. Anything he does or doesn't do is going to get him into trouble. He's damned because he didn't win the popular vote in 2000, plain as day. What is going in your life for him to be called the worst president in history? Yea, he's done some dumb things, which one hasn't. Because he wants to increase mileage by 4% for x number of years he's the worst? I don't like the idea of increasing CAFE myself. Let the free capitalist market decide. I would like to know how they came up with these prices. Are you going to tell me that GM was planning on using the same powertrains for the next decade, and now since Bush proposed an increase to the CAFE, GM will have to spend $40B to comply. BS

The reasons he's the worst president in history have little to do with CAFE standards and more to do with lies, deceit, ignorance and stupidity.

[Dragon]

the idea in principal are good, ie. increasing fuel efficiency, but the timeline's and targets really need a lot more though. of course, when/if something like this gets implemented (even a higher gas tax), the next president will be the one dealing with all the ramifications

[Derek77]

The reasons he's the worst president in history have little to do with CAFE standards and more to do with lies, deceit, ignorance and stupidity.

Lies and deceit? Care to point some out to me. I can't think of one right off. Ignorance and stupidity, isn't that what politics are all about?

[Z-06]

GM needs to push Diesels strong and hard. With people's perception about diesels getting better, they should be more exhaustive about diesel and possibly a hybrid diesel in the near future.

[Intrepidation]

Lies and deceit? Care to point some out to me. I can't think of one right off. Ignorance and stupidity, isn't that what politics are all about?

• Going to war without Congress' approval.
• Going to war claiming Iraq had "weapons of mass destruction" yet none were ever found.
• Not doing a damn f@#king thing about health care issues, trade policies, and blaming Detroit for their problems.
• Not responding to the hurricane disasters in a timely manner.

Those are just some of the ones I named off the top of my head.

Oh and he can't form a descent speech to save his life.

[Dragon]

• Going to war without Congress' approval.
• Going to war claiming Iraq had "weapons of mass destruction" yet none were ever found.
• Not doing a damn f@#king thing about health care issues, trade policies, and blaming Detroit for their problems.
• Not responding to the hurricane disasters in a timely manner.

Those are just some of the ones I named off the top of my head.

Oh and he can't form a descent speech to save his life.

first, let me say that I am not now, nor ever been, a proponent of the war in Iraq.

But I would like to point out that your Congress did approve military action in Iraq by your president in the Joint Resolution

To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq (Public law 107-243, 116 Stat. 1497-1502)

Sec.3(a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to-- (1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

and like it or not, Hussein did not live up to the resolutions imposed upon him by the Security Council

[Intrepidation]

first, let me say that I am not now, nor ever been, a proponent of the war in Iraq.

But I would like to point out that your Congress did approve military action in Iraq by your president in the Joint Resolution

To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq (Public law 107-243, 116 Stat. 1497-1502)

and like it or not, Hussein did not live up to the resolutions imposed upon him by the Security Council

My bad. But that still doesn't change the fact that he's an idiot. I'm not sad to see Hussein go. I'm irked by the fact that we're still in Iraq though.

[Derek77]

• Going to war without Congress' approval.
• Going to war claiming Iraq had "weapons of mass destruction" yet none were ever found.
• Not doing a damn f@#king thing about health care issues, trade policies, and blaming Detroit for their problems.
• Not responding to the hurricane disasters in a timely manner.

Those are just some of the ones I named off the top of my head.

Oh and he can't form a descent speech to save his life.

1. Yes he did. It was the UN's approval you are thinking of, which I'm happy he did ignore.

2. Check that one again. We did, just not what we thought.

3. I'll give you that one, well the healthcare and trade policies at least, though socialized healthcare is not the answer.

4. That was a city and state issue, but got turned into a federal issue after the fact and by the state blaming everyone but themselves.

He is a weak public speaker, but that doesn't make him dumb. And none of the things listed make him the worst president either or a liar.

[ellives]

Lies and deceit? Care to point some out to me. I can't think of one right off. Ignorance and stupidity, isn't that what politics are all about?

Are you kidding? Is your name Jeb Bush? How about just before he fired Rummy as a recent example? He was asked a direct question about it the day before and he was visibly adament his support was behind Rumsfeld. The next day Rummy was gone. He even admitted he lied. Once a liar. Always a liar.

And when he's not lying he's spinning. Iraq was buying uranium - now they're not. Don't even mentioned WMD's which is either lying or incompetence. You decide which is the worst trait.

[OshKoshBerJosh]

I'd love to know who came up witht his $40 Billion number. That's absurd. Gm would need to replace their gas guzzling engines with some of their smaller, more efficient engines. no more 400hp Escalades etc. Performance will take a hit, but not nearly to the same degree as it did during the 1970s.

As for President Bush's proposal, I think his heart is in the right place...but as usual I don't know where the heck his mind is. I too prefer the gas tax. You kill two birds with one stone by forcing people into smaller, more efficient vehicles and you raise a lot of revenue which can be used to pay down our multi-trillion dollar national debt.

Now, as to Bush as a president.....

Deception

1. Pushing Medicare reform in 2003 but refusing to admit to the exponential costs of the program..and now proposing cuts to the same program. This was political...try to get the seniors votes in 2004 and then cut their programs in 2007

2. Pushing No Child Left Behind, hailing it as the biggest education reform in a generation....and then underfunding it.

3. School Vouchers: Giving parents the option to take their children out of failing schools and giving them $3000 on average towards the cost of private schools. The deception, you ask? How many private schools do you know of tht have tuition rates anywhere near that amount? The only ones I know of are schools with certain religious affiliations. Public money going towards private religious schools.

4. Katrina...knowing full well that Michael Brown was going to step down from FEMA. When a reporter asked him if this was true, he said he didn't know anything about it. The truth was that he didn't know Brown had already publicly announced his resignation. This was an outright lie.

5. "I'm a uniter not a divider" Historically speaking, he is one of the most divisive presidents in modern times.

6. Says he wants CEOs to be held accountable for their outrageous salaires...and then does NOTHING. And he doubled the presidential salary when he took office.

7. Selling his first round of tax cuts based on estimates of surpluses in excess of 5 trillion dollars between 2000 and 2010....knowing full well that those projections were no longer accurate.

Flip-flopping

1. Saying earlier in his presidency that he was not in favor of a constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage..and then in 2004 comes out swinging in favor of it

2. Terry Shiavo (sp?) - appealing to federal court judges to overturn previous ruling that would then force a feeding tube into her. Yet, this president says he does not like "activist judges".

3. The mission in Iraq - first we went in for WMDs, then we went in for Democracy, now we're in for Terrorism (Terrorism we are increasing just by being there).

Blunders Beyond Belief

1. Guest Worker Program - DO you really think that these workers are going to go back to their countries after 3-5 years willingliy and peacefully?

2. Stem Cell Research - He's just too stubborn. Unwilling to acquiesse to the public support for such research funded by federal tax dollars.

3. Israeli-Palestinian peace process- He totally dropped the ball when he took office. The progress made under the CLinton Administration was wiped out.

4. Social Security - private saving plans fly directly in the face of the whole point of social security. It was never meant to be privatized. Also...he never came up with a way to fund the shortfall in the current system that his proposal would create.

[Derek77]

Are you kidding? Is your name Jeb Bush? How about just before he fired Rummy as a recent example? He was asked a direct question about it the day before and he was visibly adament his support was behind Rumsfeld. The next day Rummy was gone. He even admitted he lied. Once a liar. Always a liar.

And when he's not lying he's spinning. Iraq was buying uranium - now they're not. Don't even mentioned WMD's which is either lying or incompetence. You decide which is the worst trait.

Come on. If he said that, it was on the day of the election. Your telling me that he knew that his party was going to get it handed to them on election day. He used election day as a "poll" of the people. Kind of a dumb move to me, but that's what he did. Do you know where a transcript is of that or a news report?

And about the uranium, would you not believe your own intel people when they told you? I would.

I still want to know about how they got these numbers. I wonder how much each OEM spends on powertrain technology alone?

[ellives]

Come on. If he said that, it was on the day of the election. Your telling me that he knew that his party was going to get it handed to them on election day. He used election day as a "poll" of the people. Kind of a dumb move to me, but that's what he did. Do you know where a transcript is of that or a news report?

And about the uranium, would you not believe your own intel people when they told you? I would.

I still want to know about how they got these numbers. I wonder how much each OEM spends on powertrain technology alone?

I'm sure the transcripts are easily found with a little effort. The gaff was thoroughly covered and I remember him specifically discussing his reasons for lying when called on it later.

On your uranium question, when you're a manager of people at ANY level, YOU'RE responsible for YOUR decisions whether it's based on somebody else's information or not. It's your responsibility to validate information given to you and assess credibility of the sources. This is the case, because YOU will be on the hook for the decision and NOT the source of the poor information. Bush is a poor manager and makes bad decisions too frequently. He doesn't think through the ramifications of his actions (the "axis of evil" speech will go down in history as one of his biggest blunders) and doesn't take responsibility for his mistakes.

I've always had a great deal of disdain for people who speak with authority as if what they say is the gospel truth when they're proven to be wrong at times. Bush fits this description to a "T." He has singlehandedly given the Democrats control of congress for the next 8 years and the presidency until 2012. (Plus I might add caused me to vote for Democrats for the first time in my life.)

*Thread closed*

[Derek77]

I'd love to know who came up witht his $40 Billion number. That's absurd. Gm would need to replace their gas guzzling engines with some of their smaller, more efficient engines. no more 400hp Escalades etc. Performance will take a hit, but not nearly to the same degree as it did during the 1970s.

As for President Bush's proposal, I think his heart is in the right place...but as usual I don't know where the heck his mind is. I too prefer the gas tax. You kill two birds with one stone by forcing people into smaller, more efficient vehicles and you raise a lot of revenue which can be used to pay down our multi-trillion dollar national debt.

Now, as to Bush as a president.....

Deception

1. Pushing Medicare reform in 2003 but refusing to admit to the exponential costs of the program..and now proposing cuts to the same program. This was political...try to get the seniors votes in 2004 and then cut their programs in 2007

2. Pushing No Child Left Behind, hailing it as the biggest education reform in a generation....and then underfunding it.

3. School Vouchers: Giving parents the option to take their children out of failing schools and giving them $3000 on average towards the cost of private schools. The deception, you ask? How many private schools do you know of tht have tuition rates anywhere near that amount? The only ones I know of are schools with certain religious affiliations. Public money going towards private religious schools.

4. Katrina...knowing full well that Michael Brown was going to step down from FEMA. When a reporter asked him if this was true, he said he didn't know anything about it. The truth was that he didn't know Brown had already publicly announced his resignation. This was an outright lie.

5. "I'm a uniter not a divider" Historically speaking, he is one of the most divisive presidents in modern times.

6. Says he wants CEOs to be held accountable for their outrageous salaires...and then does NOTHING. And he doubled the presidential salary when he took office.

7. Selling his first round of tax cuts based on estimates of surpluses in excess of 5 trillion dollars between 2000 and 2010....knowing full well that those projections were no longer accurate.

Flip-flopping

1. Saying earlier in his presidency that he was not in favor of a constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage..and then in 2004 comes out swinging in favor of it

2. Terry Shiavo (sp?) - appealing to federal court judges to overturn previous ruling that would then force a feeding tube into her. Yet, this president says he does not like "activist judges".

3. The mission in Iraq - first we went in for WMDs, then we went in for Democracy, now we're in for Terrorism (Terrorism we are increasing just by being there).

Blunders Beyond Belief

1. Guest Worker Program - DO you really think that these workers are going to go back to their countries after 3-5 years willingliy and peacefully?

2. Stem Cell Research - He's just too stubborn. Unwilling to acquiesse to the public support for such research funded by federal tax dollars.

3. Israeli-Palestinian peace process- He totally dropped the ball when he took office. The progress made under the CLinton Administration was wiped out.

4. Social Security - private saving plans fly directly in the face of the whole point of social security. It was never meant to be privatized. Also...he never came up with a way to fund the shortfall in the current system that his proposal would create.

I'll take Deception 5 and 6.

5) Again, I think it all stems from the 2000 election and not winning the popular vote.

6) I'm actually glad he hasn't done anything about this. It's not the feds business, not unless a crime is committed. And I don't think he sets his pay scale.

Flip-flopping

2) Was that George? I thought it was brother Bush?

Blunders Beyond Belief

2) I with Bush, but not for the same reasons. Let the private sector spend their money on it, not tax dollars. Take a donation, something.

3) I really don't think much was there. It was shaky to begin with.

4) Do away with the whole thing? What program does the government do right?

The rest, I agree with you.

[Derek77]

I'm sure the transcripts are easily found with a little effort. The gaff was thoroughly covered and I remember him specifically discussing his reasons for lying when called on it later.

On your uranium question, when you're a manager of people at ANY level, YOU'RE responsible for YOUR decisions whether it's based on somebody else's information or not. It's your responsibility to validate information given to you and assess credibility of the sources. This is the case, because YOU will be on the hook for the decision and NOT the source of the poor information. Bush is a poor manager and makes bad decisions too frequently. He doesn't think through the ramifications of his actions (the "axis of evil" speech will go down in history as one of his biggest blunders) and doesn't take responsibility for his mistakes.

I've always had a great deal of disdain for people who speak with authority as if what they say is the gospel truth when they're proven to be wrong at times. Bush fits this description to a "T." He has singlehandedly given the Democrats control of congress for the next 8 years and the presidency until 2012. (Plus I might add caused me to vote for Democrats for the first time in my life.)

*Thread closed*

I'd have to agree with your manager situation. But I don't think the axis of evil statement was that big of a blunder.

Vote for what you believe. Don't just vote for other majority party. It teaches the other party nothing, just to be like the party you went to.

Don't close. This is going good, just a little O/T.

[-Camaro-]

GM needs to push Diesels strong and hard. With people's perception about diesels getting better, they should be more exhaustive about diesel and possibly a hybrid diesel in the near future.

Fuel mileage savings would be canceled out by the ridiculous price of Diesel. Over here it's over $3.00 a gallon for Diesel and only $2.69 for regular.

[cletus8269]

well $hit i thought this was cheers and gears... must have some how got on filibusters&rebuttal.com by mistake...

I don't understand how Bush thinks they can increase MPG by 4% every year. That would require new technology year after year after year on basically everything, which is quite obviously not going to happen.

As for 650HP Vettes and 400HP Camaros... well, I think they will sell in such small quantities that it won't affect CAFE that much. The Z06 gets 26MPG highway, so I think it's more trucks than cars (hi-power or not) that need to see the big improvements.

back to the gas... there was a guy at the hospital knocking hipo cars and how useless they were except for drinking gas. being the good little GM supporter i am i kindly pointed to said 26mpg the vette gets. he didnt believe me to which i replied it was the 505hp vette on top of that. sure enough he checked the site and found the truth... so he started knocking dodge and my reply was who cares about them.

[gm4life]

What are we doing playing politics. I support Mr. Bush but he has had his flaws this 4 percent increase is one of them and not realistic.

[ellives]

What are we doing playing politics. I support Mr. Bush but he has had his flaws this 4 percent increase is one of them and not realistic.

EVERYTHING is political - make no mistake.

[ehaase]

I think it's interesting how much more costly meeting the proposed CAFE standards will be for GM than for Toyota and Honda. The Camaro and Corvette may get 26 on the highway, but they average about 22 when city is factored in. If CAFE goes up to 34 mpg, then GM will have sell an awful lot of 40 mpg cars to offset those 22 mpg V8 performance cars. I don't think GM has anything that averages 40 mpg on sale right now.

[Drew Dowdell]

It can't cost GM $40 billion to develop a line of 4cylinder, 6 cylinder, and 8 cylinder clean diesel engines suitable for car applications. It can't cost GM $40 billion to do all that AND triple the production capacity of the Duramax for trucks.

[regfootball]

every time we see another article on detroit bitching about fuel economy standards, it just adds fuel to the fire for the imports to increase the public perception that detroit = fuel hogs and japan = fuel sippers.

why doesn't detroit GET that yet? They need to stem all this type of publicity.

I'd rather see publicity about how GM ford etc are taking bold moves ahem, to tackle these issues head on, in real or 'fluffy' PR induced ways.

Its amazing we as a country will survive Bush but NONE of the upcoming alternatives is any better. Hilary makes me vomit.

I am not against raising the fuel tax if the proceeds go to developing alternate energy streams and they make a bit of a dent oin our consumption.

There are some things GM can do to really address this stuff.

Keep developing new engines with top technology for one. Things like direct injection and improved electronics can help more and more over time.

Lower the weight of your vehicles. Aluminum, hello? They just test a Jag XK in R/T and the sucker got 19 combined mpg. Not bad for a luxury coupe. If GM could offset weight increases due to other things, with aluminum in some vehicles, that would help a lot. I DFC if aluminum is harder to produce and more expensive, over time they will figure out how to reduce that cost. maybe not as cheap as steel, but you get the idea.

Some cars should be offered as diesel. A diesel CTS would absolutely rock. If it get combined near 40mpg like a 3 series does, well, can you imagine the image boost you would get? Too bad the econweenies and californians are out to destroy any type of diesel movement in this country.

Some vehicle lines could still stand to move to more efficient platforms. We should be able to buy a Suburban sized vehicle on a unit body chassis that would be just as durable for most drivers (i.e. soccer moms), and could save 500 pounds of slug.

Throw in a nice 6 cylinder diesel (and hyrbid) with that unibody type suburban and we would see nice increases in fuel economy.

Even though it may be tough to meet that politician posturing increase they 'want', at least keep nose to the grindstone working on all sorts of ways to make real progressive gains across all your products.

[ellives]

every time we see another article on detroit bitching about fuel economy standards, it just adds fuel to the fire for the imports to increase the public perception that detroit = fuel hogs and japan = fuel sippers.

why doesn't detroit GET that yet? They need to stem all this type of publicity.

I'd rather see publicity about how GM ford etc are taking bold moves ahem, to tackle these issues head on, in real or 'fluffy' PR induced ways.

Its amazing we as a country will survive Bush but NONE of the upcoming alternatives is any better. Hilary makes me vomit.

I am not against raising the fuel tax if the proceeds go to developing alternate energy streams and they make a bit of a dent oin our consumption.

There are some things GM can do to really address this stuff.

Keep developing new engines with top technology for one. Things like direct injection and improved electronics can help more and more over time.

Lower the weight of your vehicles. Aluminum, hello? They just test a Jag XK in R/T and the sucker got 19 combined mpg. Not bad for a luxury coupe. If GM could offset weight increases due to other things, with aluminum in some vehicles, that would help a lot. I DFC if aluminum is harder to produce and more expensive, over time they will figure out how to reduce that cost. maybe not as cheap as steel, but you get the idea.

Some cars should be offered as diesel. A diesel CTS would absolutely rock. If it get combined near 40mpg like a 3 series does, well, can you imagine the image boost you would get? Too bad the econweenies and californians are out to destroy any type of diesel movement in this country.

Some vehicle lines could still stand to move to more efficient platforms. We should be able to buy a Suburban sized vehicle on a unit body chassis that would be just as durable for most drivers (i.e. soccer moms), and could save 500 pounds of slug.

Throw in a nice 6 cylinder diesel (and hyrbid) with that unibody type suburban and we would see nice increases in fuel economy.

Even though it may be tough to meet that politician posturing increase they 'want', at least keep nose to the grindstone working on all sorts of ways to make real progressive gains across all your products.

A 3-series does what?

[gm4life]

The new Tundra sucks fuel, the Sequoia, Land Cruiser (wonderful truck seriously the only Toyo/Lexus I would get) and the Tacoma are all very hoggish when it come to mpg the new non-hybrid Camry's aren't excellent either they are just good.

[ellives]

The new Tundra sucks fuel, the Sequoia, Land Cruiser (wonderful truck seriously the only Toyo/Lexus I would get) and the Tacoma are all very hoggish when it come to mpg the new non-hybrid Camry's aren't excellent either they are just good.

This is stuff GM is be out there beating the drum about.... hard....

Are you listening and watching Rick?

[rueben44]

The reasons he's the worst president in history have little to do with CAFE standards and more to do with lies, deceit, ignorance and stupidity.

SPEAK!

[aldw]

Why is diesel so expensive, curiously?

[regfootball]

A 3-series does what?

near 40 mpg in combined driving.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I hope that the sequel works ok then, mayb ethe volt will come to fruiton by then too. whats the problem? a battery?

I bet theres a nice piece of cheese for the person who figures that one out.

Either of those better count towards cafe. I bet if they had to theyd squeek out 50 mpg no problem just to comply.

long live performance.

EVERYTHING is political - make no mistake.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

yes, and if thats the caes then im glad pelosi is next in line. Cheney is a couple of ticks away if he keeps it up. Bush? eh, i dont know what his deal is. doesnt time seem to stop when you start to think about his presidency?

someone better whip this $h! back into line.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't understand how Bush thinks

Bush thinking? :rotflmao:

[ocnblu]

As we saw this summer with the plunge in large SUV sales, the market is the best way to determine product mix. CAFE standards should stay where they are. We should not punish manufacturers for building what the public wants, and this proposal would be disastrous for the domestic 3. In European and Asian home markets, conditions are vastly different than they are here. Can you imagine Toyota trying to sell a Tundra in Tokyo? Or even Honda a Ridgeline? It wouldn't happen, but they have spent a lot of money developing tiny cars for their packed urban domestic market areas. These CAFE proposals would be so much easier for the Asian brands to meet, but difficult even for them due to our market demands.

[ellives]

Bush thinking? :rotflmao:

I don't it's an oxymoron...... no wait.... maybe it's just a moron.

[ellives]

near 40 mpg in combined driving.

Um maybe a Cooper gets 40 combined but there's no way a 3 is anywhere near that. In the 2007 model I see 20/29 or 21/30 depending on model. Am I missing something?

[Satty]

Reg is probably quoting European cycle numbers for the 3er diesel. I really really wish we got the Mini One or the Mini D.

[ellives]

Reg is probably quoting European cycle numbers for the 3er diesel. I really really wish we got the Mini One or the Mini D.

Ah that makes sense as I go back and look at the thread. Diesel is a huge opportunity if handled properly. To me it's criminal that diesel prices are higher and in some cases substantially higher than gas. Years ago diesel was substantially cheaper as it should be. I believe it costs less to process. If the masses moved over to it as a primary fuel, the price would come down.

[ehaase]

Deception

1. Pushing Medicare reform in 2003 but refusing to admit to the exponential costs of the program..and now proposing cuts to the same program. This was political...try to get the seniors votes in 2004 and then cut their programs in 2007

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/...in2528226.shtml

[ellives]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/...in2528226.shtml

I rest my case.

[Chicagoland]

All these rich know it alls are going 'increase the gas tax' to get the 'fly overs' to drive smaller cars. While they are in limos, taxicabs, or planes. As if they think middle class working people don't have enough money problems!

[Drew Dowdell]

Ah that makes sense as I go back and look at the thread. Diesel is a huge opportunity if handled properly. To me it's criminal that diesel prices are higher and in some cases substantially higher than gas. Years ago diesel was substantially cheaper as it should be. I believe it costs less to process. If the masses moved over to it as a primary fuel, the price would come down.

The problem is, much of the north east uses diesel as heating fuel. Yes, those oil tanks in your NJ basement are filled with the same Bunker C that goes into big rigs..... except for the "tax dye" that the big rigs get.

[ellives]

The problem is, much of the north east uses diesel as heating fuel. Yes, those oil tanks in your NJ basement are filled with the same Bunker C that goes into big rigs..... except for the "tax dye" that the big rigs get.

I think the dye goes in the heating oil.

[ellives]

All these rich know it alls are going 'increase the gas tax' to get the 'fly overs' to drive smaller cars. While they are in limos, taxicabs, or planes. As if they think middle class working people don't have enough money problems!

It's a perfect solution, other than the fact congress can't be trusted to do the right thing with the money.

Everyone pays their appropriate share. If you don't do much driving and have a little car, you won't pay much more.

If you have a big car or an Escalade and drive an hour each way to work, you're going to pay a LOT more.

[tama z71]

oh yay a political thread. thanks f@#kers.

your opinions on politics =

[regfootball]

Um maybe a Cooper gets 40 combined but there's no way a 3 is anywhere near that. In the 2007 model I see 20/29 or 21/30 depending on model. Am I missing something?

C/D

After each loop we filled the tanks of both cars and calculated the mileage. The back-road loop yielded an average of 24.3 mpg for the gas car; the diesel consumed at the rate of 33.6 mpg. On the highway loop, the gas car put up a respectable 27.8 mpg, while the diesel scored a truly impressive 40.4 mpg. Total the loops, and the averages come to 26.3 mpg for the 330i and 37.8 mpg for the diesel — that’s a 44-percent increase in fuel economy. Assuming that the price of gas and diesel is more or less equal at roughly three bucks a gallon, then it would take about 37,000 miles to recoup the extra $1264 that the 330d commands over the 330i in Germany.

that's what diesels do.

Edited March 5, 2007 by regfootball