Camaro Could Spawn Large Cadillac

[ehaase]

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A11964.html

Lutz: Camaro Gear Could Spawn Big Caddy

A Cadillac with more than eight cylinders still possible, Lutz says.

by Joseph Szczesny (2007-02-25)

Could the same rear-wheel-drive platform General Motors Corp. plans to use for the new Chevrolet Camaro also be used for a new rear-wheel-drive and/or all-wheel-drive ultra-luxury Cadillac?

GM vice chairman and product guru Robert Lutz recently acknowledged it was a possibility during a conversation with journalists earlier this month at theChicago auto show.

Lutz noted that as part of global product strategy, GM would have fewer but more flexible platforms that would accommodate a wider range of vehicles and vehicle designs. Specifically, the new Camaro platform could be used for other vehicles. Lutz also hinted part of the reason for the delay in moving forward with the Camaro - it's now set to appear in 2009 - has been the need to extend the utility of the fundamental architecture so it could serve as the platform for other vehicles as well.

"What you've got to understand is that we've got this modular product architecture kit where we have two different lengths of center underbodies, two different lengths of front rails and two different lengths of rear overhang. So we can modify those elements any way we want. In the case of the Camaro, it's long short, short. If, for instance, we wanted to do a very large rear-wheel-drive Cadillac with more than eight cylinders you could do long, long, long," Lutz said.

"It's like a Lego set-you weld them together anyway you want," he added.

So far, however, GM hasn't said publicly it plans to go ahead with an ultra-luxury Cadillac. However, executives such as Mark LaNeve, GM vice president of sales, service and marketing have said they would like to move forward with an upscale Cadillac that could compete with cars such as the BMW 7-Series or the new Lexus LS460.

Lutz' remarks reflect one of the new realities that will have a profound influence on the car business in the years to come. Capital is in relatively short supply and with the exception of Toyota, the cost of borrowing has gone up dramatically for automakers all over the world. Thus, finding ways to conserve capital by spinning off more products from one basic investment has become essential.

Lutz also noted that GM is continuing to pool its product resources from around the world. "It doesn't matter where it is. It's all one organization. We've finally realized not every region has to do their own product," he said.

Even decisions on which engines to use in which products, which have traditionally been left to regional managers, are being shaped by global forces now, Lutz said.

"One of the answers, which is being increasingly adopted in Europe and we plan to use it too, is to use engines in cars that are fundamentally way too small and then turbocharge them. You could envision (the Pontiac G8) with a four-cylinder Cobalt engine but turbocharged to 270 to 280 horsepower. That's a formula that works great for fuel economy because when you're not in the acceleration game you're cruising along on a tiny, little engine," Lutz said. "Trouble is that costs about $1400. Nothing is for free."

"I think what we found with direct fuel injection is we found it boosts power faster than it boosts fuel economy; I think we would have preferred the opposite," he said.

[vrazzhledazzle]

YES!!!

Caddy Sixteen is my all-time favorite concept..i think (unless someone reminds of another one that I REALLY liked)

[NOS2006]

Just because they can doesn't mean they will. I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[AxelTheRed]

I saw the worlds "ultra-luxury" in there. Has GM finally decided to get Cadillac to compete with Rolls-Royce?

[NOS2006]

I saw the worlds "ultra-luxury" in there. Has GM finally decided to get Cadillac to compete with Rolls-Royce?

GM didn't say that, that was TCC.

[ehaase]

I posted the article because I thought some of Lutz's comments about future engines was interesting. I sure would not want a G8 with a 270 hp turbo 4 cylinder, although a turbo V6 would be OK.

I really don't think this Zeta Cadillac will be ultra luxury. I think it will be nothing more than a DTS replacement.

I think Cadillac needs the CTS to become even more successful, especially in international markets, before it is ready to develop an S class competitor.

[NOS2006]

I really don't think this Zeta Cadillac will be ultra luxury. I think it will be nothing more than a DTS replacement.

I'd probably have to agree.

I think Cadillac needs the CTS to become even more successful, especially in international markets, before it is ready to develop an S class competitor.

I'd guess GM agrees, which is probably why they're developing the CTS into so much. With such a better, higher quality interior, better drivetrain options, and the development of a coupe and wagon to go with the sedan, they're preaching that they mean business.

[Northstar]

The DTS is most likely going on Zeta, though it's not down in ink. I don't see the DTS getting more than 8 cylinders, however.

The ULS is still up in the air more or less, the only info we know is that it isn't penciled in for Zeta, at this point at least.

The powertrain info is interesting, but I don't envision a G8 with a turbo four. Perhaps something on Alpha could have a turbo four or six in place of a normal six or eight, but I don't see it happening on Zeta. I could be wrong of course, as that's just speculation on my part.

GM didn't say that, that was TCC.

"a very large rear-wheel-drive Cadillac with more than eight cylinders you could do long, long, long" is talking about nothing other than a Ultra-Lux vehicle. He could be talking about the DTS if not for the "more than" part, as I don't see the DTS getting more than 8 cylinders unless we're getting a DTS-V.

[Flybrian]

The DTS is the American S-Class. Remember that it occupies a very special place in the domestic luxury market, offering the large car dimensions for a midsize price.

A lineup consisting of a well-executed BLS, wide-ranging CTS, American-tailored DTS, and high-tier luxury ULS would be ideal for the American market as well as the global market. The key differentiators between the DTS and ULS would be in price and content. Envision DTS as utimately being 'Mass-ULS' or 'Budget-ULS' and selling in respectable volumes in the domestic market. ULS would be similar to DTS in size, but be positioned further up the price range ($70-100k) and offer 8+ cylinder engines. and ultra-plush interiors. I would also love to see an 2+2 coupe under the ULS line as I think a well-executed and well-styled variant would do well as a twosome against the alien Bimmers, coma-inducing Lexus, and dime-a-dozen S-Class.

[zeek]

i think it's a good idea to spread costs and such across as much as you can but could you build a true s-class or 7 series car on a zeta platform? i would like to see a uls 4 door and possibly a uls coupe with a base v8 and either a big 8 or little 12 for a top of the line.

[bcjohnso99]

i think it's a good idea to spread costs and such across as much as you can but could you build a true s-class or 7 series car on a zeta platform? i would like to see a uls 4 door and possibly a uls coupe with a base v8 and either a big 8 or little 12 for a top of the line.

I would think that using the same platform with better materials (high strength steel and other alloys) would yield a car suitable for the upper end of the luxury car segment.

[gm4life]

I think it could be great or bad, pricing can't get so overly high like the STS, they need to price it like a FWD DTS. I vote for a DTS on the Chi, sales do speak to GM not everyone wants RWD! Just be careful but so long as it sells, I suppose. Better get a DTS before they switch!

[Chris_Doane]

I saw the worlds "ultra-luxury" in there. Has GM finally decided to get Cadillac to compete with Rolls-Royce?

GM isn't ever going to compete with Rolls Royce. (or Bentley, or Maybach)

Mercedes, BMW, Lexus? Sure. Roller? Hell no. They sold 336 cars last year and the MSRP starts at about $330,000. If you don't have $30mil in assets, RR doesn't care about you.

That's not a market GM is looking to get into.

[91z4me]

I posted the article because I thought some of Lutz's comments about future engines was interesting. I sure would not want a G8 with a 270 hp turbo 4 cylinder, although a turbo V6 would be OK.

Well it is a good thing that the G8 was added to Lutz's quote. Notice the parenthesis around Pontiac G8 in the quote. That means it was added and not specifically mentioned. I bet this said sport sedan or something similar and the author added the Pontiac G8. I speculate that Lutz may have been reffering to an Alpha sedan.

I would think that using the same platform with better materials (high strength steel and other alloys) would yield a car suitable for the upper end of the luxury car segment.

I think so as well. Afterall BMW uses 1 chassis for everything from the 3 series to the X5 and the 7 series.

I think it could be great or bad, pricing can't get so overly high like the STS, they need to price it like a FWD DTS. I vote for a DTS on the Chi, sales do speak to GM not everyone wants RWD! Just be careful but so long as it sells, I suppose. Better get a DTS before they switch!

Chi is vapor ware. It never existed outside of speculation. DTS or whatever it is called will be on Zeta.

[titan]

Replacing the FWD DTS with a a "long, long, long" RWD Zeta based DTS is a great idea. With the proper content, materials, and equipment, it can easily be a true flagship and S/7 competitor. An eight cylinder engine with around 400HP, and a possible optional engine will all help to establish Caddy as a serious player in that segment this time around. Ofcourse, this is the brand's pinnacle of lux, so it has to be no excuses lux and excess, as in it's competitors.

[cad1cts]

if somebody could do a photoshop job on the holden caprice/statesman to give us an idea of what caddy may be thinking of in terms of looks i kno i'd appreciate it tremendously

[91z4me]

if somebody could do a photoshop job on the holden caprice/statesman to give us an idea of what caddy may be thinking of in terms of looks i kno i'd appreciate it tremendously

It would look nothing like the Caprice, Grange or any of the WM line. It would have its own unique sheet metal and likely SLA front suspension instead of the double pivot McPhearson, which is what the VE/WM cars have now.

[toesuf94]

Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

Edited February 28, 2007 by toesuf94

[carman21]

ultra luxury means something like the S-Class

[cletus8269]

Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

no groans from my end, i think it could be one of buicks saving graces to get the youth back in their market... of course most of the younger people that remember the psychological damage the t-types and gns had would be in their 30's and 40's at least.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

I would LOVE to see a return of Turbo Buicks!

In fact, I think it would do A LOT for the division for it (Buick) to pioneer the turbo efforts at GM. I mean, sure, the Turbo Sky/Solstice is already out. But that's a niche as opposed to a turbo Zeta or better yet a Turbo AWD Ep II.

The only problem is, this might be Pontiac or Saturn territory.

[Sixty8panther]

I say the next Turbo Buick should be a Atlas 5/6 with BiTurbo!

[loki]

i think we all know what turbo buick would be most realistic... "Velite". even a turbo'ed v6 anything(not the 2.8 as is) with a trany that could handle it would be a boon to the younger shoppers , let alone a 3.6 DI.

every "make" needs to have at least one "high performance" model, some displacement, some forced induction. saturn's RL, pontiac's GXP, chevy's SS, cadi's V-series, why not a buick "ultra" turboed model? we'll know more about the direction buick's taking in the next few months hopefully.

[gm4life]

I think a RWD DTS will hurt sales is all, if they want to switch it to RWD that is fine but price it right. Base at 45K and loaded at 60K with pricing like that you can't go wrong. That would step on the STS's feet too much tho I think. Unless it is gone because the new CTS is so big. I would keep the DTS and the Lucerne the lone large FWD cars, to it makes sense.

[titan]

I think a RWD DTS will hurt sales is all, if they want to switch it to RWD that is fine but price it right. Base at 45K and loaded at 60K with pricing like that you can't go wrong. That would step on the STS's feet too much tho I think. Unless it is gone because the new CTS is so big. I would keep the DTS and the Lucerne the lone large FWD cars, to it makes sense.

A base of 45K and loaded at 60K isn't enough for what the article's implying. We're talking about an S-Class/7-Series rival. That means having an interior, powertrain, and tech to atleast match them on all fronts. As I said before, this needs to be a no excuses luxury sedan. A car such as this would cost atleast as much as the LS460, and that car starts north of $60K. Let the next gen STS play it's position as a 5-Series/E-Class compeititor and fill the aforementioned price range.

[titan]

Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

Buick should use two engines in it's cars; the 3.6L DOHC V6, and a slightly detuned version (of whatever Caddy's output would be) of the new V8 being developed. I then that an turbo engine option should be given for the entire lineup... that would be very cool.

[Northstar]

I think the article is talking about the proposed ULS. The DTS would not be the S-Class fighter, the ULS would.

[toesuf94]

Wow...I was waiting for screams, but got thumbs up instead. Well, The Caddy big car would be cool. Look to China's Caddy fleet for interior inspirations and the car could be a hit.

As for the Buick - do we bring back the Regal nameplate, or do we look to a new name with a new Identity? I think the new Super is reaching too far back in most people's memory for what the name implied. T-type is too 80's...Grand National - I don't see that playing well either. Any suggestions?

[cad1cts]

i realize it wouldnt look like the statesman/caprice. still i wonder if it could be done to make a version of the car using what we already know about their current styling direction, proportions of the vehicle from the camaro and aforementioned caprice. if gm cant or wont build it, that way at least us in the fan world can. that was my only point with bringing it up. as far as the turbo engines are concerned, they sound great to me. within reason of course....

[gm4life]

I think the article is talking about the proposed ULS. The DTS would not be the S-Class fighter, the ULS would.

^I think it is too, the DTS gets way to many sales because of its price, a ULS would be sweet!^ Just redesign the DTS on a FWD/AWD platform and use it for the Lucerne too. Then build a ULS, S-Class & LS460 beater.

[hyperv6]

GM isn't ever going to compete with Rolls Royce. (or Bentley, or Maybach)

Mercedes, BMW, Lexus? Sure. Roller? Hell no. They sold 336 cars last year and the MSRP starts at about $330,000. If you don't have $30mil in assets, RR doesn't care about you.

That's not a market GM is looking to get into.

You hit the bullseye on that one!

Mercedes can't even make a dent with the Maybach how is Caddy going to even chip the paint. Caddy needs to walk before they grt too big of any Ideas.

If they ever do a Status car it will be like the Ford GT a limited run and good for image but nothing else. If Caddy wants to make a statment build a DTS that looks like a Sixteen with a 500 + HP V8. Shorten the hood to make the car driveable but still keep it well balanced to look like the show car. Sell it at a reasonable price and make it RWD. Leave the FWD to the Lucerne.

As for the dream of the GN Buick, those days are over. Buick can do a turbo but it will be a much different car than what many would expect.

A Turbo 4 cylinder G8 might be a fallback plan to give the larger sedan a little Euro flair with economy if the sale of V8 G8's tank if gas goes over 3$3. Lets face it the Chrysler/Dodge cars sales slipped with the high gas last summer.

Besides a Turbo 4 in a small sedan would have some appeal here in RWD if priced well and Quality is kept up to German standards. Standards of late VW seems to be in trouble of meeting.

[ehaase]

^I think it is too, the DTS gets way to many sales because of its price, a ULS would be sweet!^ Just redesign the DTS on a FWD/AWD platform and use it for the Lucerne too. Then build a ULS, S-Class & LS460 beater.

I think you've made your point over and over and over and over and over that you want GM to continue building large FWD cars, even though it probably won't.

[ehaase]

Well it is a good thing that the G8 was added to Lutz's quote. Notice the parenthesis around Pontiac G8 in the quote. That means it was added and not specifically mentioned. I bet this said sport sedan or something similar and the author added the Pontiac G8. I speculate that Lutz may have been reffering to an Alpha sedan.

The point is that GM is considering replacing V8 engines with turbocharged smaller engines if CAFE standards or gas prices go substantially up.

[ZL-1]

I think Lutz was just giving an example of the architecture's flexibility.

EDIT: He may be also hinting at what is being looked at for the DTS/STS replacement.

Edited March 1, 2007 by ZL-1

[gm4life]

What you fail to realize is Cadillac already has two RWD cars and the DTS is different and sells on it because it is different. Not everyone needs BMW handling nor do they want the price. For 50,000 you can get a performance DTS with most of the bells and whistles a Benz or BMW will cost you at least 20-30K more for a car of similar size. The dollar to car ratio on the DTS is excellent and switching your strongest seller to RWD is taking a huge risk, I don't care if the average DTS buyer is 60 but the hope being that people at say 30 buy an CTS and drive sportier RWD Cadillac's and by the time they are 55 there values have changed from excellent handling wanting a luxury ride. (Where the DTS comes in!) Just because RWD is what you think you want and is more exciting and will deliever better handling doesn't mean it is right for Cadillac. There is not enough market share for 3 RWD sedans. Just build the SLS over here, and give the DTS a much needed platform update along with the Lucerne! Trust me a FWD luxury 'boat' as many people say around here still have many merits, and you contiune to push the same old RWD stuff, not everyone is a performance nut and the DTS suits them just fine. Sometimes the best thing is to offer an alternative from what the next guy sells that is why the DTS/Deville have remained such a strong seller. Please understand I respectfully disagree, RWD is good but FWD sells in much larger numbers.

Think of it this way...

2008 Malibu FWD vs. new RWD Impala

The Malibu will sell 250K hell maybe more, and the RWD Impala won't sell near that many. Maybe 100K if they are lucky, if losing sales is the goal then fine but having all RWD Cadillac's might have the same result, even tho Cadillac buyers have different tastes lets face it they are not that different. Logically I don't understand your point raise the price switch it to RWD sells less of them and sales slip makes total sense. Then someone will bring up profitablity sure you can charge 70K for one but how many do you plan on selling when there are models like the LS-Series, 7-Series and S-Class. I don't mean to rain on your performance parade but someone has to speak resonable. 2 RWD Cadillac's right now is enough. Sorry I love performance but DTS buyer's don't prolly know what torque steer is nor do they care, but the way I drove a 2007 DTS performance package a month ago and was hugely impressed even tho it is FWD it had all the handling performance I needed the stabli-track and MRC are wonderful. GM pushing RWD stuff is good but it won't be mainstream sellers like FWD is and guys need to realize that not everyone wants RWD. They need a balance of both thats why I say one RWD Pontiac sedan is enough maybe two with a RWD performance car GTO, Trans Am whatever they want to call it. They need a FWD sedan/coupe or two and performance SUV never hurts. With the Solstice of course. Chevy just needs the RWD Camaro, Corvette, new Impala and maybe a Chevelle the rest should remain FWD. Buick needs a GNX performance coupe based on the Camaro/G8/Zeta with a 3.6L DI Turbo V6 and then ONE large RWD Buick sedan. The Lucerne and LaCrosse should remain FWD and of course the Enclave must stay but it needs a SMALL V8 320hp would be nice. Then GMC needs to keep doing what they are doing and so does Saturn. Sorry RWD is great for people that have no bad winters (I do) and want performance but most people are happy driving a Malibu or Camry like vehicle, they are what give you sales, not RWD speciality performance stuff. As you can see I like RWD and performance and I am considering a new G8 someday but FWD still sells, if that changes fine you guys will be ready. How many RWD Cars does Toyota, not LEXUS just Toyota branded vehicles do they currently sell? And guess what there sales are on fire. Hell Honda has only RWD vehicle the S2000 and they seem to be doing okay. Look at Acura even, I am just being realistic and saying that GM is nuts if they are putting all there money into RWD development. You still have enough time to get out a new FWD Lucerne/DTS! GO!

[Windy-57]

Hey all, I've watched this forum for a while and there is a lot of good info floating around on it. I haven't posted before, but want to get more active and contribute a bit myself.

First, there seems to be an ongoing debate as to whether the Lucerne and DTS should stay FWD or move to Zeta. One thing that Zeta will allow GM to do is easily apply an AWD system. So when considering FWD or Zeta, in as far as DTS and Lucerne are concerned, you should probably be debating FWD vs. AWD because if these models go to Zeta, they will likely have a high content of, if not completely consist of, AWD models.

Second, I don't really see the point for a DTS anymore. I know that it captures a niche part of the market and sells a lot of units, but a lot of those sales are fleet units. That segment should belong to Buick, the problem is transferring those buyers to Buick and not completely losing them to the Town Car. I don't know, I just think the car hurts the Cadillac image and erodes the exclusivity.

And third, I'd really like to see a ULS as well. Caddy needs an S-Class/LS competitor with a larger than V8 engine, 2-wheelbases and a pricetag starting at $85,000 and ranging upwards of $130,000; I don't think Cadillac will be whole until that vehicle arrives. But, I wouldn't hold my breath because the investment for such a vehicle steep. To do it right, you would need another new platform (or something so heavily modified that it's essentially new anyway), a new engine that is not currently in the GM family and a new transmission (think 8-speed) that is not currently in the GM family. And then, you would need to either find a facility flexible enough to handle it or operate and expensive prototype shop. GM could certainly pull this off, but as was mentioned earlier, there are more important things at hand.

Sorry for the length, I'll try to keep it shorter in the future.

[G. David Felt]

Windy, I would agree with you. The DTS buyers need to move to Buick and go exclusive RWD or AWD with Caddy. Good Points.

Hey all, I've watched this forum for a while and there is a lot of good info floating around on it. I haven't posted before, but want to get more active and contribute a bit myself.

First, there seems to be an ongoing debate as to whether the Lucerne and DTS should stay FWD or move to Zeta. One thing that Zeta will allow GM to do is easily apply an AWD system. So when considering FWD or Zeta, in as far as DTS and Lucerne are concerned, you should probably be debating FWD vs. AWD because if these models go to Zeta, they will likely have a high content of, if not completely consist of, AWD models.

Second, I don't really see the point for a DTS anymore. I know that it captures a niche part of the market and sells a lot of units, but a lot of those sales are fleet units. That segment should belong to Buick, the problem is transferring those buyers to Buick and not completely losing them to the Town Car. I don't know, I just think the car hurts the Cadillac image and erodes the exclusivity.

And third, I'd really like to see a ULS as well. Caddy needs an S-Class/LS competitor with a larger than V8 engine, 2-wheelbases and a pricetag starting at $85,000 and ranging upwards of $130,000; I don't think Cadillac will be whole until that vehicle arrives. But, I wouldn't hold my breath because the investment for such a vehicle steep. To do it right, you would need another new platform (or something so heavily modified that it's essentially new anyway), a new engine that is not currently in the GM family and a new transmission (think 8-speed) that is not currently in the GM family. And then, you would need to either find a facility flexible enough to handle it or operate and expensive prototype shop. GM could certainly pull this off, but as was mentioned earlier, there are more important things at hand.

Sorry for the length, I'll try to keep it shorter in the future.

[gm4life]

One problem AWD costs more, why do AWD when you can do FWD?

[Windy-57]

One problem AWD costs more, why do AWD when you can do FWD?

So that you do more than the status quo and make your product desirable. Given, you don't want all Impalas to be AWD, but remember, Buick is moving upmarket and Cadillac is...well...Cadillac. FWD won't cut it at the high end of the market very much longer; AWD may soon become a cost of entry for large luxury vehicles.

Also, as I eluded to, there is less engineering involved with the application of AWD to a RWD architecture and thus less expensive. Which, if they do this for the Lucerne and DTS, with parts sharing and shared development costs, makes an AWD Impala that much less expensive. This is some of my favorite stuff in GM's turnaround plan, they're not only doing a much better job with product, but doing it in a very cost-effective manner.

[Camino LS6]

Welcome to the board,Windy!

I agree with your assesment, large FWD is a dying segment - especially on the high end of the market. If you are spending the cash on a high end car, the cost of AWD isn't likely to be a concern.

I've long felt that FWD's place is small, economy-minded cars and nowhere else. I'll conceed part of the midsize market too, for now. I does my heart good to see FWD's near- total domination of the market coming to an end. I look forward to the day when only "transportation appliances" like the Camry are FWD.

RWD and AWD are the future, and the now-ending heyday of FWD the automotive equivalent of the Great Depression.

Happy Days are here again! :AH-HA_wink:

[quantum110]

I don't know if some of you realize this, but the current LNF produces more tq over a wider range than the current LY7. In a sedan like the G8 they'd have to get the gearing just right, but I'm betting it would accelerate decently and get pretty damn good mileage.

Edit: And it almost sounds like they want to Turbo the 2.4...so tq could be even greater.

Edited March 2, 2007 by quantum110

[zeek]

Windy, I would agree with you. The DTS buyers need to move to Buick and go exclusive RWD or AWD with Caddy. Good Points.

not 100% sold on that idea. yes they could get rid of all fwd caddy's but i think that they should keep the DTS and put it on the enclave/acadia/outlook platform with fwd or awd. buick can piggyback on this platform for a large sedan as well. using this platform should offer an inexpensive alternative to making a new platform for the dts and lower the price on the dts. yes that's right i said lower the price. lexus can do it with their entry level cars (1 rwd = is and 1 fwd = es). so keep the price low and sell a lot of them to people still looking for fwd or awd big cars. then offer a uls as a top of the line and put it on a stretched zeta platform and offer awd. oh, and yes, bring over the sls as the sts replacement or make it an option that doesn't break the bank!

as for the fwd/rwd debate, i would suggest this:

chevy gets: new maro, new impala, and vette, all rwd w/ awd option for impala. fwd w/ awd option for the rest

caddy to goes: cts, sts-l or sls, and uls as rwd w/ awd options, xlr keeps just rwd, and a dts replacement as fwd w/ awd option

pontiac to go all rwd! and give it a magnum like wagon g8 and move the vibe to chevy and ax the torent

saturn: sky and maybe a range topper on the zeta for rwd and the rest fwd w/ awd option

buick: all fwd w/ awd options on all!

saab: all fwd w/ awd options on all!

[gm4life]

The man above us nailed it. The Lambada might be able to be modified for a car.

[turbo200]

someone above raised the point of fleet sales for the current DTS, arguing that DTS should be dropped because fleet sales were a large part of the mix. I don't have exact figures, I know we have seen them before though, anyway I beleive it's around the 20% mark. DTS sales are around 60k units/yr; that's still too much to just give away.

The current STS has proven it does not have what it takes to absorb the DTS buyers, even though a percentage of Deville buyers have likely selected CTS/STS, there is still too much volume in the DTS formula to give up on it completely.

So the question is what works for the DTS? Number one: distinctive brash American style. Number two: sheer mass/size, mass gives it a powerful feeling for buyers, the size means people can carry a lot. Number three: aggressive pricing, considering the size of the car.

What doesn't work? The technology, dummy.

What's the answer? In my book, I'd have a DTS off Zeta; there are enough buyers that want RWD to return to justify, the platform is readily accessible, the dynamics/performance that can be achieve would leave nothing to be desired. Price it around 40k base to 60k. Offer tons of tech oriented towards comfort/luxury, and make the car handle well. The definition of the ride should be planted as well as solid as well as plush. This is the definition of S-class ride.

I don't think Caddy has what it takes to truly compete with the S-class yet. First, they need to have a successful car lineup. The only success I see at Caddy on the car side is the CTS, and to a lesser degree I guess the XLR is doing well for its segment. In order to establish the cred, they must first develop a line of world class cars.

Where does this plan leave the STS? I think it can coexist with the DTS, with the DTS aimed more towards comfort, with a slightly larger footprint than STS, with a more hardcore performance STS, with higher powered STS standard, and with a more traditional-look DTS [not as traditional as it is now, which is too traditional, to the point it is sucking the life out of the youth feel of Caddy's other products] and maybe a more hard-edged STS.

Or they could kill the STS. It's thier decision, but if that were the case, the DTS would have to go more for the M-45s and 5-series' of the group. Also I don't think Zeta lends DTS enough exclusivity to truly compete against the M45s adn 5-series. Thus the plan would be for STS to continue in it's current pricing role....albeit with a slightly more expensive start.

[aldw]

The STS should be uprated as an S-class competitor to allow for the CTS to fight the 5-series and a RWD BTS to fight the 3-series. Success for Cadillac requires building an S-class fighter first rather than waiting for later, as only experience and effort will ensure a successful vehicle lineup.

[91z4me]

not 100% sold on that idea. yes they could get rid of all fwd caddy's but i think that they should keep the DTS and put it on the enclave/acadia/outlook platform with fwd or awd. buick can piggyback on this platform for a large sedan as well. using this platform should offer an inexpensive alternative to making a new platform for the dts and lower the price on the dts. yes that's right i said lower the price. lexus can do it with their entry level cars (1 rwd = is and 1 fwd = es). so keep the price low and sell a lot of them to people still looking for fwd or awd big cars. then offer a uls as a top of the line and put it on a stretched zeta platform and offer awd. oh, and yes, bring over the sls as the sts replacement or make it an option that doesn't break the bank!

See the problem there is that Lambda was designed from the start to be crossovers and maybe minivans. It was never designed for a car. That means a lot of re-engineering would have to be done on the structure just to make it the right height and have a more car-like belt line, including lowering the firewall. Not to mention that all the suspension would have to be modified extensively to sit lower, the floorplan may have to be modified to make it more car like. So the modifications would be quite extensive, meaning expensive. And when doing that you end up with an expensive, low volume chassis that would compete against the already world class high volume GMNA Zeta 2.0 cars.

as for the fwd/rwd debate, i would suggest this:

chevy gets: new maro, new impala, and vette, all rwd w/ awd option for impala. fwd w/ awd option for the rest

caddy to goes: cts, sts-l or sls, and uls as rwd w/ awd options, xlr keeps just rwd, and a dts replacement as fwd w/ awd option

pontiac to go all rwd! and give it a magnum like wagon g8 and move the vibe to chevy and ax the torent

saturn: sky and maybe a range topper on the zeta for rwd and the rest fwd w/ awd option

buick: all fwd w/ awd options on all!

saab: all fwd w/ awd options on all!

If Buick goes all FWD/AWD it will never be taken seriously as a luxury competitor. It may have worked for Acura up until now but even now they are changing to add a RWD chassis to their lineup.

[zeek]

See the problem there is that Lambda was designed from the start to be crossovers and maybe minivans. It was never designed for a car. That means a lot of re-engineering would have to be done on the structure just to make it the right height and have a more car-like belt line, including lowering the firewall. Not to mention that all the suspension would have to be modified extensively to sit lower, the floorplan may have to be modified to make it more car like. So the modifications would be quite extensive, meaning expensive. And when doing that you end up with an expensive, low volume chassis that would compete against the already world class high volume GMNA Zeta 2.0 cars.

yeah i guess that i didn't truely think it through but i still think that an option similar to this would make the most sense for the DTS. as far as cost goes, split it with buick and develop the platform to be a universal platform that can carry several cars off the buick line and possibly a large car for saab above the 9-5.

If Buick goes all FWD/AWD it will never be taken seriously as a luxury competitor. It may have worked for Acura up until now but even now they are changing to add a RWD chassis to their lineup.

well i would say that audi isn't doing so bad with it's fwd/awd cars. i think that buick can be taken seriously as a mid-lux car competitor world wide. caddy fills the lux market and gm doesn't need 2 lux car companies and they really don't need to compete with themself by making buick less expensive versions of caddy cars.

[ehaase]

well i would say that audi isn't doing so bad with it's fwd/awd cars.

The A4 sells well, but the A6 and A8 don't. Neither does the Volvo S80 sell well. It appears that luxury buyers prefer RWD.

[gm4life]

You might be suprised. Seriously. A good FWD large sedan has merits all of its own.

[ehaase]

A good FWD large sedan has merits all of its own.

Good sales aren't one of them.