It's official. Chrysler's up for auction...NOT?

[Dragon]

and guess who's being tabbed to run Chrysler if Magna buys them...Wolfgang Bernhard.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Too many emotions and not enough business sense.

The only way I see GM buying Chrysler, is if GM bought them, filed for bankruptcy, bought the pieces that have some value for cheap, and dumped the rest, including the excess capacity and workers, then using that as an example for the rest of the UAW, picking up some additional sales in the process without added capacity.

Having the factories running closer to 100% may well be worth the cheap price GM could probably get Chrysler for. And despite all the comments about how bad this is for the American car makers, this would actually put both GM and Ford in a better position to make better cars to better compete against Toyota, and the other foreign competitors.

I agree 100%

That's something I struggled to come to grips with (And still do) but what the Detroit companies are going through now is quite natural and predictable.

EVERY business is cyclable, and the cycle usually happens in a given industry about every 100 years (Which would be now for Detroit) simply because of cost. The cost side of the equation (In typical capitalist narrow minded think) just got completely out of hand.

We can talk Toyota this and Toyota that all day, but in the end does it really matter? Cost would've been roughly the proportionate (Variable cost anyway) at ANY volume or market share figure.

So, are the Detroit companies on a down cycle? ABSOLUTELY. Are they in danger of dieing? DEFINITELY? But, just like with other business, they HAVE THE CHOICE to choose to live or die. All they have to do is turn a profit or in essence cut costs and they'll cycle right back up.

Will they be smaller more efficient companies? YOU BETCHA. But is that necessarily a bad thing? Is VOLUME the end all, be all of the industry? HELL NO. It's unrealistic, in a capitalist non-regulated market like this, to assume that one or three companies would hang on to the majority or share anyway. It's inevitable that as more choices are available (In theory because in reality they're pretty much all the same car except with a different badge) MORE diversity will be experienced.

As long as GM, Ford and DCX can carve out enough share to make a strong profit, they'll be fine. Sure, the capitalist "Conquer all, expand, expand" side of the business will try and grow that, but it really isn't necessary for survival.

In short.. The "old" Detroit isn't working anymore, so it's time for these companies to get creative and redefine themselves (As GM is doing, and Ford and Chrysler are trying to do)

[vrazzhledazzle]

So, are the Detroit companies on a down cycle? ABSOLUTELY. Are they in danger of dieing? DEFINITELY? But, just like with other business, they HAVE THE CHOICE to choose to live or die. All they have to do is turn a profit or in essence cut costs and they'll cycle right back up.

Oh yea, its that simple. Just turn a profit and you'll be good.

It's the cycle's fault. That's why a STUTTGART company is getting sold off again or possibly pulled apart. Let's just wait and once Chrysler dies the cycle will be over. Then maybe Ford. But who cares? It's not GM yet right? Not until the next 'cycle'!! I so glad our auto industry is still going strong.

[Northstar]

I don’t see a one-model Viper brand being able to carry on, especially when the Viper isn’t a huge selling model. And, I don’t see why everybody is saying this, but Viper and ‘Vette could easily co-exist because they could easily be marketed to different customers, as they currently are for the most part. Some people do cross-shop the Z06 and Viper, but the upcoming StingRay will be in a completely different class, just as the base Corvette currently is. I’ve also outlined this in my own little strategy.

The Viper cannot co-exist with the Corvette if both have the same goals in mind as the current vehicles. The Corvette is #1 at GM whether Viper fans like it or not, and the only way the Viper would still exist is if the 'Vette was clearly superior. In that case, I don't see the current Viper's aspiring to own a future Viper, because it would be a different type of vehicle.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Oh yea, its that simple. Just turn a profit and you'll be good.

It's the cycle's fault. That's why a STUTTGART company is getting sold off again or possibly pulled apart. Let's just wait and once Chrysler dies the cycle will be over. Then maybe Ford. But who cares? It's not GM yet right? Not until the next 'cycle'!! I so glad our auto industry is still going strong.

Actually, it's the entire industry. All I'm saying is that industries, especially in capitalist markets historically cycle just like the economy. It's simply because there comes a time when demand no longer satisfies supply, yet the business has obligations regardless because of it's age (Such as pension)

MY summary was more theory than reality. It is "that simple" in theory because a business is designed to do one thing: MAKE MONEY. In order to make money the Detroit companies have to cut cost. The 'right sized' demand is already there since each still holds a relatively LARGE part of the market and each has loyal buyers. So, it's not like all is lost or Chrysler is starting at zero.

Now, the reality of the situation gets a little more complicated, but not by much. Just make cars people want to buy. GM is learning this, and Chrysler has made some good efforts. For example; even on the once "hot-hot-hot" LX cars the interiors are a joke.

I'm not criticizing Chrysler at all, and I'm certainly not placing GM above them (Because GM still has some craptacular offerings as well) It's just the reality of the situation.

All I was trying to do is give a few people a little hope. Chrysler isn't as bad off as everyone here seems to think. Just like GM wasn't and isn't as close to filing bankruptcy as everyone would've liked us to think.

Edited February 25, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[ehaase]

http://www.acarisnotarefrigerator.com/Arti...66_20070222.htm

Chrysler For Sale

I've bee waiting nine years to hear those magical words. I nearly drove off the road the day I heard that Daimler-Benz AG was going to "merge" with Chrysler as a merger of "equals". Ha!

No one believed it then except the top brass at both companies. And it didn't take much time for the Germans to become disillusioned with the marriage. Of course, the "merger" was really a purchase of Chrysler by DB. The resulting company, DaimlerChrysler AG (DCX in Wall Street-speak) was managed in Germany by Germans.

In the extremely nationalistic Germany, it was like the death of the largest and greatest German industrial company. Daimler-Benz AG had interests in everything from aerospace (EADS) to software to banking. Mercedes-Benz represented the pinnacle of German engineering excellence and dominance. The three-pointed star hood ornament stood for the very best quality, luxury and safety. Mercedes-Benz cars were really engineered like no other.

Then, in the mid-1990s, with Jürgen Schrempp at the helm of DB, the cost accounts took the place of the engineers and the slide of Mercedes-Benz to mediocrity began. His "crowing achievement" was the 1998 merger with Chrysler that turned a German company into a German-American company.

It was only a matter of time before Chrysler began to drag down Mercedes-Benz. Mr. Schrempp divested most of Daimler-Benz non-automotive assets in order to focus on the core automotive businesses. German managers were dispatched to Auburn Hills to "fix" the problems at Chrysler. But in the past nine years, the only "bright spots" in the Chrysler group have been the Chrysler 300, 300C and the Dodge Magnum wagon. We are still waiting for the Challenger coupe and convertible; but those alone aren't enough to save Chrysler from its inevitable slide.

It was also about the same time that Mercedes-Benz undertook the course to have a product in every market segment in an effort to offer something for everyone. Most analysts call this brand dilution: but Mr. Schrempp got his advisory board to look at this expansion as a necessity to compete in a global market that demanded high volumes and low costs.

Another low point in 1998 was that Mercedes entered the SUV market with the unremarkable but profitable ML-Class. The proliferation of models and classes continued. Mercedes now has an alphabet soup of classes: C-Class, E-Class, S-Class, CLK-Class, CLS-Class, CL-Class, SLK-Class, SL-Class, R-Class, M-Class, G-Class, GL-Class, AMG-variants. Do you remember when AMG really meant something special? I do. But there is now an AMG variant in every Mercedes class. I think that the Germans want to go back to the "good old days" when engineers were more important than cost accountants and marketing managers.

Disaster followed the massive expansion of Mercedes-Benz. Fit, finish and build quality suffered. Interior materials looked and felt cheaper. Engines became more "mass market". Mercedes-Benz abandoned its in-line six cylinder engines in favor of the much cheaper to build modular V-6 models. Then Mercedes got trapped using complex electronic systems that weren't fully tested. This menace culminated with the 2005 massive recall of more than one million E-Class vehicles to fix things like an electronic braking system that could fail.

Mercedes lost its luxury car lead in both the US and Europe -- and worst of all the Fatherland -- to its main competitor BMW. The once bullet-proof reputation of the Mercedes three-pointed star became tarnished and diluted. All this happened under the flawed leadership of Jürgen Schrempp.

At the same time of the Chrysler purchase in 1998, Mercedes launched the smart car brand with the diminutive smart city car the ForTwo. The cars were a hit but smart was mismanaged from the beginning by Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes built an expensive, lavish new factory in France. A separate dealer network was set up all over Europe -- a very costly venture. In fact, the cost structure was so heavy that GM would be proud and it assured smart would never turn a profit. The original concept of smart was to have a €5,000 city car that would fit the small streets and parking spaces of large, congested old-European cities. (S for Swatch, M for Mercedes combined with "art" to make "smart" -- all small letters to convey the small size of the car. Could you barf?)

The little smart joint venture between Swatch and Mercedes-Benz turned sour fast as the heavy hand of the German management chased out Swatch. That inexpensive €5,000 economy car suddenly became €10,000 + lots of spiffy and expensive options. This all happened on Mr. Schrempp's watch and Mercedes was on the brink of selling or closing smart when now DCX Chairman Dieter Zetsche took control. Fortunately for us, Dr. Z stepped in and rescued the smart brand with some serious cost cutting, model eliminations and an expansion into the US market in 2008.

But Dr. Zetsche had bigger fish to fry. He's been under pressure since he took over as Chairman of DCX to "fix" the Chrysler problem. In Germany, there was only one "fix" to that problem. No, not just firing 13,000 employees and closing a few plants -- the Germans wanted to unload the entire Chrysler side of the company.

There's been a joke in Germany for a long time: How do you pronounce DaimlerChrysler? It's pronounced "Daimler" -- the Chrysler part is silent. That seems to be on the fast track to reality. While no car company has directly expressed interest in purchasing Chrysler, DCX managers have ordered Wall Street investment banking vampire JPMorgan Chase to prepare a "deal book" on Chrysler. This "deal book" is presented to interested and qualified parties. And apparently there are lots of interested parties.

The price tag for Chrysler already floating around is $9 billion. And there are other sweeteners for the deal. Daimler is willing to pay some big money to get rid of Chrysler. It will fund all of Chrysler's unfunded pension costs so that the buyer will only be buying the assets of the car businesses, not legacy costs. That alone has got to be worth at least a couple billion. And that kind of sweetener is what a European or Korean company would like to see because those unfunded pension costs are scary to civilized countries that have national healthcare and pension systems that relieve the employers of the direct burden for these social costs.

Last Friday, some Wall Street slime floated out the idea that GM was interested in purchasing Chrysler. Come on, does GM need three new brands with almost as much brand equity as Buick or Pontiac? All three Chrysler brands -- Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep -- are heavily damaged with sub-standard products, slow selling and outdated models and no big hits on the horizon.

Then we have the French suitors. Renault SA, with Emperor Carlos Ghosn at the helm, may be interested in Chrysler for its dealer network to expand Nissan in the US with additional dealers and additional local manufacturing capacity. But Chrysler needs serious attention to everything from design and engineering to brand rebuilding. Does Mr. Ghosn really need this new "challenge"? Perhaps he can do his legendary "magic" at Chrysler and find a new impresario for Nissan and Renault. Renault particularly needs attention; but so does Nissan as it lost most of its talented management team in the bad-idea move to Nashville from Torrance.

Then there is PSA Peugeot-Citroën. I've always been a fan of Citroën -- it has the quirk factor big-time. And Peugeot has a small but loyal following in the US. The modern vehicles produced by PSA are sexy and fresh. I would love to see this company return to the US market. But PSA may be sour on the market and has stated repeatedly that it doesn't need the US market for it to have sufficient volume to be profitable. It may be too much to hope for, but PSA would be my choice to rescue Chrysler. The French have always liked Jeeps -- why not buy the whole company, bring some French style, products and plastics to the US and continue the Jeep brand as a simple, clearly defined brand rather than the mass-marketing exercise in redundancy it has become.

Ford doesn't want anything to do with the Chrysler drama. I think Alan Mulaly is smart to steer Ford clear of that train wreck.

I don't think Honda or Toyota want to touch this mess either. Toyota needs to focus on building US capacity. Maybe it will buy a plant or two and then spend lots of money making them into Toyota plants, but I doubt it. Toyota also needs to focus on quality control. It's growing almost too fast to keep quality in line with corporate expectations. Toyota just settled a big class-action lawsuit over engine sludge. That is an ugly black mark on Toyota's once untouchable reputation for reliability.

Toyota's also taking heat for getting bigger than GM even faster than predicted just a year or two ago. Toyota doesn't want to be the company blamed for the self-destruction going on at Ford and GM and it will do lots of things to make sure it doesn't get bad PR over these things. As demand for Toyota products grows, the company imports more cars into the North American market from Japan. Toyota traditionally wants to have at least 60% of cars sold in NA made in NA and right now, that number is much closer to 50%. I doubt Toyota would ever want to purchase a US car company. That's not how Toyota works and it's not how Japanese companies work in general.

Honda has its own issues and problems. Honda has been and continues to be extremely successful in the US market. But Honda is a company that does everything itself. It doesn't want left over dealerships or plants. And Honda just ran into some bad PR of its own. It just settled a major class-action lawsuit that looks bad for Honda. Apparently the odometers on Hondas built from 2002 to 2006 are off -- high -- by 2% to 4%. If you bought or leased a Honda/Acura between April 12 2002 and November 7 2006, Honda will extend your warranty mileage by 5% and they will reimburse you for repairs you paid for if your car would have been covered by the new warranty limits. Honda will also reimburse lease charges if you paid for mileage you may not have driven. If you want information on that little "mistake" and major PR blunder, check out hondaodometerclassaction.com.

The bloodsucking attorneys are now going after Nissan. I wonder why the Japanese are having problems with their odometers. This is very shameful in Japan. Who will bow in shame and resign?

I think it's a safe bet that no Japanese company is interested in Chrysler -- unless you count Renault/Nissan.

So what's left? We know BMW isn't about to touch Chrysler. And now that the German state of Lower Saxony has capitulated to Porsche, Porsche now controls the Advisory Board of Volkswagen AG. You can be absolutely certain that Porsche and Dr. Ferdinand Pïech are not interested in Chrysler. That leaves the Koreans and the Chinese. Both Korea and worse -- communist China -- would be political hot potatoes for ownership of a dying American industrial icon. But right now, $9 billion is pretty cheap for an instant dealer network and a car company with lots of unused manufacturing capacity.

Then there is the Wall Street alternative -- Hedge funds, Kirk Kerkorian and private equity groups. I believe that Chrysler may go to one of these blood sucking vampires who will make the tough management changes like firing Tom LaSorda and brining in a new management team. The name Cerberus, the private equity firm who walked away with half of GMAC for very little and has proposed investing in some units of bankrupt Delphi, may be a major player in helping a reconstituted Daimler-Benz dump Chrysler.

The private equity investors and Wall Street investment banking vultures are slobbering over this deal. It's with great glee that Moran Stanley reports that Chrysler would be the "cheapest car company in the world" and that DCX would have to take a "whopping write-down" on its investment in the Chrysler group. My prediction is that DaimlerChrysler will sell Chrysler to a US private equity firm. It's a soft interim step to return Chrysler to US ownership so that a US capitalist is responsible for the downsizing of Chrysler and the Germans won't be blamed for selling directly to the Koreans or the French.

The private equity fund will hire some "star" management team to come in and start firing just about everyone they can see while demanding cost concessions from suppliers and ordering redesigns of existing products or new products that will make Chrysler attractive to the next buyer. When they are done with more mass firings, more plant closures, model deletions, dealership deletions and other cost reductions closely associated with modern American business tactics, Chrysler will be resold to a foreign car company -- most likely PSA or Hyundai.

If you want a living model for a revived Chrysler, just look to GM-Daewoo. GM is selling Korean-made cars as Chevrolets and Saturns in the US and in Europe, under the brands Opel, Vauxhall and Chevy. The Korean connection would be a benefit to Chrysler for cost savings.

There is a possibility that the private capital group may try to marry Chrysler with its former Japanese partner Mitsubishi. However, Mitsubishi is on life support in the US and it may not have the capital to fuse with Chrysler. The Mitsubishi name also hasn't been floating around Wall Street and as we know, if Wall Street doesn't want it, it won't happen.

Stay tuned, I'm sure there will be some interesting things happening soon. Wall Street loves divorces with immediate remarriages. It means hundreds of millions of dollars for everyone involved except the common shareholders of DCX. Those year end bonuses will be as high as ever with this kind of action in the markets!

[vrazzhledazzle]

Actually, it's the entire industry. All I'm saying is that industries, especially in capitalist markets historically cycle just like the economy. It's simply because there comes a time when demand no longer satisfies supply, yet the business has obligations regardless because of it's age (Such as pension)

MY summary was more theory than reality. It is "that simple" in theory because a business is designed to do one thing: MAKE MONEY. In order to make money the Detroit companies have to cut cost. The 'right sized' demand is already there since each still holds a relatively LARGE part of the market and each has loyal buyers. So, it's not like all is lost or Chrysler is starting at zero.

Now, the reality of the situation gets a little more complicated, but not by much. Just make cars people want to buy. GM is learning this, and Chrysler has made some good efforts. For example; even on the once "hot-hot-hot" LX cars the interiors are a joke.

I'm not criticizing Chrysler at all, and I'm certainly not placing GM above them (Because GM still has some craptacular offerings as well) It's just the reality of the situation.

All I was trying to do is give a few people a little hope. Chrysler isn't as bad off as everyone here seems to think. Just like GM wasn't and isn't as close to filing bankruptcy as everyone would've liked us to think.

I guess I misunderstood you a little, but I am saying we SHOULD be worried about our auto industry and not just wait for the 'cycle' to pass by.

The cycle as you describe it (pensions, ect) isn't likely to end anytime soon since America is aging, and its pensions and all other UAW liabilities aren't going to go away.

Asian countries are not going to play fair and increase the value of their currencies or by any means give up their unfair advantages.

So now Chrysler MIGHT get bought by China giving them a quick entrance to our market and in a decade or so, 50% of the American market might be asian (South Korean, Japanese, Chinese)!! (assuming everything is going as its going right now, and no concessions are made -- everyone just waits for thing to 'pass by')

Our once dominant industry is gonna be slowly disassembled with all this unfair competition.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Last Friday, some Wall Street slime floated out the idea that GM was interested in purchasing Chrysler. Come on, does GM need three new brands with almost as much brand equity as Buick or Pontiac? All three Chrysler brands -- Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep -- are heavily damaged with sub-standard products, slow selling and outdated models and no big hits on the horizon.

Then we have the French suitors. Renault SA, with Emperor Carlos Ghosn at the helm, may be interested in Chrysler for its dealer network to expand Nissan in the US with additional dealers and additional local manufacturing capacity. But Chrysler needs serious attention to everything from design and engineering to brand rebuilding. Does Mr. Ghosn really need this new "challenge"? Perhaps he can do his legendary "magic" at Chrysler and find a new impresario for Nissan and Renault. Renault particularly needs attention; but so does Nissan as it lost most of its talented management team in the bad-idea move to Nashville from Torrance.

I was with him until this part....

First of all, I'm willing to bet (Sadly) that ALL three Chrysler divisions, ESPECIALLY Jeep, have more equity than both Pontiac and Buick. Dodge has a lot of appeal, if you're willing to compromise on the details and Chrysler with the 300 and Crossfire definately trumps Pontiac and Buick, which haven't had stand out "Hot cars" in years (Baring last years Solstice and Lucerne of course)

How exactly could Chryslers dealers serve to expand Nissan??? I mean, sure you could pair Nissan with Dodge, but there'd be a lot of overlap. Both divisions go for about the same person, even if Dodge is more traditional and less trendy (READ: fad) I guess they could position Chrysler between Nissan and Infiniti. But then how would Jeep clash with the "generation eXtrme" small Nissan SUVs?

why not buy the whole company, bring some French style, products and plastics to the US and continue the Jeep brand as a simple, clearly defined brand rather than the mass-marketing exercise in redundancy it has become.

Nissan already tried that... The quality sucked and they failed.

Honda has its own issues and problems. Honda has been and continues to be extremely successful in the US market. But Honda is a company that does everything itself. It doesn't want left over dealerships or plants. And Honda just ran into some bad PR of its own. It just settled a major class-action lawsuit that looks bad for Honda. Apparently the odometers on Hondas built from 2002 to 2006 are off -- high -- by 2% to 4%. If you bought or leased a Honda/Acura between April 12 2002 and November 7 2006, Honda will extend your warranty mileage by 5% and they will reimburse you for repairs you paid for if your car would have been covered by the new warranty limits. Honda will also reimburse lease charges if you paid for mileage you may not have driven. If you want information on that little "mistake" and major PR blunder, check out hondaodometerclassaction.com.

That's funny... I never read a damn thing about that in the media. (Surprise, surprise)

The private equity investors and Wall Street investment banking vultures are slobbering over this deal.

Just like they were over the GMAC split off... And they pushed and pushed until they got it. And, just like they were about a GM bankruptcy and they tried their DAMNEDEST to make that a reality, but fortunately it hasn't... YET.

and as we know, if Wall Street doesn't want it, it won't happen.

That's quite possibly the best quote I've read this year. It's a sad day in america when we're controlled like this.

It means hundreds of millions of dollars for everyone involved except the common shareholders of DCX.

Yessir, and that subsequently is probably the same guy who is going to get screwed out of a job as american industry keeps dieing, leaving or being sold off.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I guess I misunderstood you a little, but I am saying we SHOULD be worried about our auto industry and not just wait for the 'cycle' to pass by.

Oh I agree 100%. It's not going to right itself. But, my mindset is that instead of living in the past and wondering what happened (Like the media keeps us constantly doing by referencing share numbers, and 'the good 'ole days') we need to redefine what the comapnies mean and innovate once again.

Asian countries are not going to play fair and increase the value of their currencies or by any means give up their unfair advantages.

I agree... Despite what all the "journalists" want us to think, we MUST have backing from DC, or the companies will continue to suffer. THis country is the ONLY country that I know of that values the interest of OTHERS above its own.

So now Chrysler MIGHT get bought by China giving them a quick entrance to our market and in a decade or so, 50% of the American market might be asian (South Korean, Japanese, Chinese)!! (assuming everything is going as its going right now, and no concessions are made -- everyone just waits for thing to 'pass by')

That's a very scary thought, but I doubt the chinese are ready to buy Chrysler. I just don't think they're good enough to pull something like that off.. Yet. But that's just my personal opinion, so take it for what it's worth.

Our once dominant industry is gonna be slowly disassembled with all this unfair competition.

Unfortunately, it's been happening for years now. GM gives me hope though, they're on a roll and I think Ford and Chrysler could still surprise. (Even if Chrysler is bought by an equity firm)

[AxelTheRed]

So now Chrysler MIGHT get bought by China giving them a quick entrance to our market and in a decade or so, 50% of the American market might be asian (South Korean, Japanese, Chinese)!! (assuming everything is going as its going right now, and no concessions are made -- everyone just waits for thing to 'pass by')

Our once dominant industry is gonna be slowly disassembled with all this unfair competition.

MIGHT get bought by China. I hope like hell they don't, but idiots on this forum are friggin' clamoring for it.

[gm4life]

Don't buy Chrysler I am still praying...

[vrazzhledazzle]

Last Friday, some Wall Street slime floated out the idea that GM was interested in purchasing Chrysler. Come on, does GM need three new brands with almost as much brand equity as Buick or Pontiac? All three Chrysler brands -- Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep -- are heavily damaged with sub-standard products, slow selling and outdated models and no big hits on the horizon.

"No big hits on the horizon" sounds right but 'outdated models'? That's not true since they've had like 20 new models last year and for this year. That's a problem.

[Flybrian]

First of all, I'm willing to bet (Sadly) that ALL three Chrysler divisions, ESPECIALLY Jeep, have more equity than both Pontiac and Buick. Dodge has a lot of appeal, if you're willing to compromise on the details and Chrysler with the 300 and Crossfire definately trumps Pontiac and Buick, which haven't had stand out "Hot cars" in years (Baring last years Solstice and Lucerne of course)

Again, this is an example of passion over calculating thought. The Crossfire was an absolute dud and if it isn't alredy dead, its going to be. Chrysler's enduring product lines are limited to the 300, the Ram, the vans, the Viper, and Jeep. Period. Looking at the state they're in now, I would argue that Buick and Pontiac are in far better shape than Chrysler and Dodge. First, they aren't overburdened with gobs of unsold inventory; GM has managed that surprisingly well. Second, the B-P-GMC reorganization is a success waiting to be filled with some good product. Compare that to Chrysler/Dodge's massive dealer network that - again - can't even sell what's sitting on the lots.

So, people may call all these new Chryslers 'hot', but I prefer 'flash in the pan' Because proportionally, the 300 sells no better than the Concorde/LHS did and the Charger arguably sells worse given its late entry and heavy fleet sales. A

How exactly could Chryslers dealers serve to expand Nissan??? I mean, sure you could pair Nissan with Dodge, but there'd be a lot of overlap. Both divisions go for about the same person, even if Dodge is more traditional and less trendy (READ: fad) I guess they could position Chrysler between Nissan and Infiniti. But then how would Jeep clash with the "generation eXtrme" small Nissan SUVs?

Nissan (like all foreign suitors) would benefit from the rural dealer outlets and service centers. I suspect a dealer aquisition would result in large buyouts or phaseouts of metropolitan dealers.

Nissan already tried that... The quality sucked and they failed.

Well, they're talking about Peugeot/Citroen here and while Renault has clearly pumped out its share of fugugly motorcars, Peugeot/Citroen is shaping up rather well in terms of design and quality. Take a look at Peugeot's recent 607 or Citroen's C6. Both beautiful, unique cars that would look rather dashing stateside. Citroen has been a traditional technological leader, especially in suspension technology.

I think that article is pretty spot-on. Chrysler is hardly the bargain of the century even with the legacy costs amortized immediately by DaimlerBenz. Look at it this way - assuming the entirety of Chrysler's tangible assets (plants, platforms, etc) does none of the other Big Three any good as a whole, nor any well-off foreign concern. The only firms it would help are ones that likely can't afford it anyway.

Sad for Chrysler, but again - as a GM fan - whatever.

[Intrepidation]

One thing I feel the need to mention is in regards to fleet. There aren't too many fleeted cars that I've come across in my area. This includes the Caliber, Magnum, 300, and Charger. Hell, even most Impalas I see are owned. Numbers are numbers of course, but this is what I see in my area

[vrazzhledazzle]

One thing I feel the need to mention is in regards to fleet. There aren't too many fleeted cars that I've come across in my area. This includes the Caliber, Magnum, 300, and Charger. Hell, even most Impalas I see are owned. Numbers are numbers of course, but this is what I see in my area

Well, you don't live in California. I don't live there either but they are the ones who buy the most imports whereas in the Midwest and Eastern parts of our [great] country, they are more loyal to the country's automakers...more patriotic I guess.

I have noticed though that the illegal immigrants around here (Arizona) actually buy domestics...even used - used cars that cost about the same and they still choose domestics over ol' reliable Toyota (although I do believe their reliability image was actually well-deserved a decade ago - now? - all automakers are about on the same page save Chrysler).

[Intrepidation]

What pisses me off is that they're willing to hang onto the retarded smart brand, which has never made a profit, but after a bad year they wanna sell of Chrysler. f@#k the Germans!

[AxelTheRed]

What pisses me off is that they're willing to hang onto the retarded smart brand, which has never made a profit, but after a bad year they wanna sell of Chrysler. f@#k the Germans!

The only difference is they didn't really want Chrysler to begin with. They wanted Jeep, but somehow managed to screw it up just as bad as the other brands.

If I ever feel a pressing need to buy German, I think I'll just go for Volkswagon. If this is the kind of commitment Daimler-Benz has, there's no way in hell I'm getting on the road in one of their vehicles.

Edited February 27, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[Rear-Wheel Drive]

Think strategically. This isn't about Chrysler, which will be slowly absorbed by GM anyway.

It's about building Daimler-General - a global colossus and the most powerful automotive brand on the planet.

[AxelTheRed]

Think strategically. This isn't about Chrysler, which will be slowly absorbed by GM anyway.

It's about building Daimler-General - a global colossus and the most powerful automotive brand on the planet.

Its about neither one of them right now. Absolutely NOTHING definitive has been released from either DaimlerChrysler or General Motors. The last word on the subject was that they wouldn't rule out a possible sale of Chrysler Group, and that GM was interested in it.

[ZL-1]

Think strategically. This isn't about Chrysler, which will be slowly absorbed by GM anyway.

It's about building Daimler-General - a global colossus and the most powerful automotive brand on the planet.

If there's a deal, if it involves GM, and if it involves equity. The emphasis being on the word 'if'.

Or maybe we can have another (equally laughable IMO) 'merger of equals'...

[Intrepidation]

Last Friday, some Wall Street slime floated out the idea that GM was interested in purchasing Chrysler. Come on, does GM need three new brands with almost as much brand equity as Buick or Pontiac? All three Chrysler brands -- Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep -- are heavily damaged with sub-standard products, slow selling and outdated models and no big hits on the horizon.

Dodge and Jeep are far less damaged than the likes of Buick and Pontiac, and easily have more equity. Dodge is symbolized with performance and manly things, jeep is offroad, and for the most part the brands' models accurately represent those philosophies. Chrysler is the only brand I'd consider damaged, because it has no real mission. It's only slightly more upmarket than Dodge, and usually with worse values. If it were a premium brand it would be fine. You wanna talk outdated models? Name a Buick besides the Enclave that isn't based on an old platform? Most of Chrysler Groups product's are up to date. The only Dodge vehicles getting long in the tooth are the Caravan and Durango, and the new Caravan is on its way, the "oldest" Jeep is the Grand Cherokee. Chrysler's only real outdated model is the PT Cruiser, which is based off the old Neon platform. Chrysler's problem is not models, but mainly interior material quality (it seems they have build quality right, which is something GM is still working on), and they also need to ramp up the new V6 and more production of teh 6-speed. It's really not that hard to fix Chrysler, Daimler just doesn't wanna deal with it...they never have.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well, you don't live in California. I don't live there either but they are the ones who buy the most imports whereas in the Midwest and Eastern parts of our [great] country, they are more loyal to the country's automakers...more patriotic I guess.

I have noticed though that the illegal immigrants around here (Arizona) actually buy domestics...even used - used cars that cost about the same and they still choose domestics over ol' reliable Toyota (although I do believe their reliability image was actually well-deserved a decade ago - now? - all automakers are about on the same page save Chrysler).

East coast is a HUGE market for the imports as well...

Unfortunately, with the re-alignement of the media (READ: Media Monopolies like News Corp.) The majority of pop culture is controlled by the coasts now, and what's cool to drive on the coasts? IMPORTED CARS.

This explains the media bias and this explains why you'll probably see domestic market share in the midwest begin to deteriorate.

(And yes, I am being very negative, so keep that in mind)

Edited February 28, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[turbo200]

Dodge and Jeep are far less damaged than the likes of Buick and Pontiac, and easily have more equity. Dodge is symbolized with performance and manly things, jeep is offroad, and for the most part the brands' models accurately represent those philosophies. Chrysler is the only brand I'd consider damaged, because it has no real mission. It's only slightly more upmarket than Dodge, and usually with worse values. If it were a premium brand it would be fine. You wanna talk outdated models? Name a Buick besides the Enclave that isn't based on an old platform? Most of Chrysler Groups product's are up to date. The only Dodge vehicles getting long in the tooth are the Caravan and Durango, and the new Caravan is on its way, the "oldest" Jeep is the Grand Cherokee. Chrysler's only real outdated model is the PT Cruiser, which is based off the old Neon platform. Chrysler's problem is not models, but mainly interior material quality (it seems they have build quality right, which is something GM is still working on), and they also need to ramp up the new V6 and more production of teh 6-speed. It's really not that hard to fix Chrysler, Daimler just doesn't wanna deal with it...they never have.

I wish I had the time to post something meaningful, but I have to agree with ehaase, all of the brands in question are damaged. They are all viewed as blue light specials, and they are all lacking in the relevancy category, except for the minivans, the LX platform, and the Ram. This means, to the general market they are perceived as rental cars, as cheap, and further Chrysler has this stain of reliability on them, that in my book makes them even worse off than anything GM, at least GM has those loyal customers who've had excellent experiences with thier cars.

EDIT: of the chrysler brands, Jeep will be the easiest to fix, obviously, but even thier prodcuts is outdated. Though GM may rely on old platforms that can be identified by us, the hardcore enthusiast, as outdated, they don't feel outdated. The PT Cruiser feels outdated, the Grand Cherokee is wallowy, inefficient, and terribly unpredictable imo, etc etc

Edited February 28, 2007 by turbo200

[Northstar]

Dodge and Jeep are far less damaged than the likes of Buick and Pontiac, and easily have more equity. Dodge is symbolized with performance and manly things, jeep is offroad, and for the most part the brands' models accurately represent those philosophies. Chrysler is the only brand I'd consider damaged, because it has no real mission. It's only slightly more upmarket than Dodge, and usually with worse values. If it were a premium brand it would be fine. You wanna talk outdated models? Name a Buick besides the Enclave that isn't based on an old platform? Most of Chrysler Groups product's are up to date. The only Dodge vehicles getting long in the tooth are the Caravan and Durango, and the new Caravan is on its way, the "oldest" Jeep is the Grand Cherokee. Chrysler's only real outdated model is the PT Cruiser, which is based off the old Neon platform. Chrysler's problem is not models, but mainly interior material quality (it seems they have build quality right, which is something GM is still working on), and they also need to ramp up the new V6 and more production of teh 6-speed. It's really not that hard to fix Chrysler, Daimler just doesn't wanna deal with it...they never have.

Dodge is a very "damaged" brand as well. I'm going to guess that probably 40% of Dodges go to fleets. I would say Jeep is hardly damaged at all except for the Compass being a joke.

As for GM's build quality... it is at least on par if not better than Chrysler's on the new models. There are no faults in the build quality of the T900s or Lambdas. There are faults in the build quality of the newest Chrysler's.

[turbo200]

Dodge is a very "damaged" brand as well. I'm going to guess that probably 40% of Dodges go to fleets. I would say Jeep is hardly damaged at all except for the Compass being a joke.

except the major problem with Jeep are the nonstop commercials advertising incentives [up to $7000!], like Chrysler has to do with each brand it has. this to me conveys desperation, which means the brands are damaged. people can't come to look at them without some money or carrots on the hood...

[Flybrian]

EDIT: of the chrysler brands, Jeep will be the easiest to fix, obviously, but even thier prodcuts is outdated. Though GM may rely on old platforms that can be identified by us, the hardcore enthusiast, as outdated, they don't feel outdated. The PT Cruiser feels outdated, the Grand Cherokee is wallowy, inefficient, and terribly unpredictable imo, etc etc

A 'new' Jeep consisting of...

Patriot

Wrangler

Liberty

Grand Cherokee

Is all that is needed. Jeep is in trouble thanks to the Commander, etc. forays.

[Z-06]

A 'new' Jeep consisting of...

Patriot

Wrangler

Liberty

Grand Cherokee

Is all that is needed. Jeep is in trouble thanks to the Commander, etc. forays.

I agree. Patriot with better packaging and may be a V-6 to blow those Crap-4 and CRV chicks.

And for Christ sake give all of them an interior makeover.

Also, they should drop a more powerful engine in the Wrangler. 201 Hp seems to be like pussy feet.

[bring_BUICK_back]

First off I have been a Jeep owner since 1990. I have never had a major problem. I have owned a 2006 Commander and I don't see why people keep lambasting this model. I think it is a fine vehicle. It drives nice, the seat are comfortable and the Hemi works great. Plus I see tons of them on the road everyday. And as far as the possibllity of GM buying I think this is the stupidest idea that could happen. GM can't even manage their own brands. So for all those people who keep thinking that this is a good idea, get of your self. Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge are nicely styled, true the interiors are not the greatest but then again I would say that is true about alot of manufacturers.

[vrazzhledazzle]

First off I have been a Jeep owner since 1990. I have never had a major problem. I have owned a 2006 Commander and I don't see why people keep lambasting this model. I think it is a fine vehicle. It drives nice, the seat are comfortable and the Hemi works great. Plus I see tons of them on the road everyday.

I agree with that. I think Compass damaged Jeep's image, but not Commander. Hell, I think Commander is more hardcore Jeep than Liberty. Why do you think Liberty should stay and Commander should go (which is what will happen). Especially since the next Liberty gets miniCommander/Nitro styling. Commander filled the full size SUV niche for Chrysler for people that wouldnt look at Durango/Aspen (I know I wouldn't, but then again why should I with the GMT900s)

[bring_BUICK_back]

I also forgot one more thing. Like it or night Chrysler designers make a statement out of their vehicles. They at least attempt to not give that same as everyone else styling. There is not one single GM vehicle that has that in your face styling. I think if anything DaimlerChrysler should buy GM and teach the desingers a thing or two about designing that has something to say.

[turbo200]

I also forgot one more thing. Like it or night Chrysler designers make a statement out of their vehicles. They at least attempt to not give that same as everyone else styling. There is not one single GM vehicle that has that in your face styling. I think if anything DaimlerChrysler should buy GM and teach the desingers a thing or two about designing that has something to say.

hmmm...I disagree with regards to GM not having in-your-face...but I agree that Chrysler does try to make different looking cars...pretty consistently, though sometimes it works against them. For me, the major problem with Chrysler design is it doesn't seem to age well; over time the weaknesses in execution also become louder. The Commander was a nice vehicle, and still is. Personally, I don't like the front end, I don't think it was the right way to go, but you're right in that it's in your face and has it's own distinct personality, I just don't think it's the right one. Same with a lot of the Chysler cars, Sebring, Caliber, Avenger....these are cars that Chrysler has done distinctively, but distinctly ugly, imo....They should be applauded for taking a risk, but when you go bold, you should know what you're doing is the right thing. I don't know who thought the Sebring was right for the midsize market.

The other major flaw inherent with all Chryslers is interior quality, consistency, design reach. They are cheap cheap cheap, and the Commander suffers from this as well. For me, a nearly 45k truck should have a much nicer interior, and being that it is a Jeep, they could push the premium image through premium materials and design.

Other than that, you have powertrains that are not particularly efficient or powerful, or reliable. And suspensions that aren't very advanced either. I have never driven the Commander so I can't speak for the ride in that car, but I have driven a few other Chryslers, and I know I've never read any article that praised the handling of any Chrysler car, aside from the LX platform which is MB derived.

So what you have is a car company with generally second-tier offerings, that all begin to fade into the background against a tough cutthroat competitive environment. There's a lot of money to be had in the American car market, and Chrysler just isn't working the right way to get enough of it. UAW is a big part of the problem though.

Edited March 2, 2007 by turbo200

[NOS2006]

The Viper cannot co-exist with the Corvette if both have the same goals in mind as the current vehicles. The Corvette is #1 at GM whether Viper fans like it or not, and the only way the Viper would still exist is if the 'Vette was clearly superior. In that case, I don't see the current Viper's aspiring to own a future Viper, because it would be a different type of vehicle.

The two are different animals. The Viper is much more "exotic" than the 'Vette, meaning that it's so different from the Corvette (Z06 specifically) that many Viper fans wouldn't buy a Z06 while many Z06 buyers wouldn't cross to a Viper. The Viper is much more beautiful (from the outside) and is much more brawny and more masculine than the Z06. However, the 'Vette is sly and more refined with better finesse, a nicer interior, and better road manners. People who buy the Corvette want that piece of luxury they're missing out on with the Viper. Conversely, those buying the Viper just want it for the same reason Muscle Cars even existed: unrefined, unrelentless power at all times. Nobody can say that, from the outside, the Viper looks worse than the Z06. However, nobody can say the Viper has a nicer interior or is more refined than the Z06. They're totally different spices.

[Northstar]

The two are different animals. The Viper is much more "exotic" than the 'Vette, meaning that it's so different from the Corvette (Z06 specifically) that many Viper fans wouldn't buy a Z06 while many Z06 buyers wouldn't cross to a Viper. The Viper is much more beautiful (from the outside) and is much more brawny and more masculine than the Z06. However, the 'Vette is sly and more refined with better finesse, a nicer interior, and better road manners. People who buy the Corvette want that piece of luxury they're missing out on with the Viper. Conversely, those buying the Viper just want it for the same reason Muscle Cars even existed: unrefined, unrelentless power at all times. Nobody can say that, from the outside, the Viper looks worse than the Z06. However, nobody can say the Viper has a nicer interior or is more refined than the Z06. They're totally different spices.

And this means they can coexist how? They are not as different as you make them out to be. The purpose of each is the same, whether the Viper is unrefined or not. If they're going to co-exist, they aren't going to each get they're own platform, engines and transmissions. GM's not going to do spend money to make them different. They would be nearly identical, and therefore the Z06 would not be so much more refined, the Viper would not have such "relentless power at all times" (I'm not so sure the Z06 doesn't have more relentless power). If GM owned Dodge, they would be basically the same car, and that makes no sense for GM to produce both.

Oh, and the Z06 looks better from the outside. There, I said it. I personally don't find the Viper to be that attractive.

I feel the Z06 looks more sleek and sexy and the Viper looks too upright.

[NOS2006]

If GM owned Dodge, they would be basically the same car, and that makes no sense for GM to produce both.

No. The Viper would remain with a V10 giving it further exclusivity (how many V10s are there?) and it would continue with pricing between a Z06 and StingRay, with bolder more upright looks than both.

To each their own. I like the uprightness of the Viper to the sleekness of the Z06. If the two were late 4th Gen F-Bodies, the Viper would be a Firehawk while the Corvette would be the Camaro.

The Z06 is nice, but the Viper takes the cake for me.

Edited March 2, 2007 by NOS2006

[Camino LS6]

I'm not going to dive into this whole mess again, but I have to chime-in on the Viper issue. I think DCX ruined the Viper. The original was that raw, relentless beast NOS describes, but the new one tries to play the Vette's game - and fails. The current Viper may have more power and refinement than the original, but it is a compromised animal. I wouldn't even consider the current Viper at a 50% off sale. Why? Because it strayed too far from what made it great (burned legs from side pipes and all). Me, I'll take a last gen GTS any day over the current car.

Why all this background? Because I belive that if GM buys Chrysler, the Viper will die in the first minute of the first hour of GM ownership. Too bad really, but bound to happen.

No matter who gets Chrysler in the end, I'd love to see Viper return to its roots as the only product of a small domestic company a la Shelby and Avanti.

[6t5frlane]

And this means they can coexist how? They are not as different as you make them out to be. The purpose of each is the same, whether the Viper is unrefined or not. If they're going to co-exist, they aren't going to each get they're own platform, engines and transmissions. GM's not going to do spend money to make them different. They would be nearly identical, and therefore the Z06 would not be so much more refined, the Viper would not have such "relentless power at all times" (I'm not so sure the Z06 doesn't have more relentless power). If GM owned Dodge, they would be basically the same car, and that makes no sense for GM to produce both.

Oh, and the Z06 looks better from the outside. There, I said it. I personally don't find the Viper to be that attractive.

I feel the Z06 looks more sleek and sexy and the Viper looks too upright.

After seeing the two side by side I'd take the viper in a minute. Aggressive with a sleekness the " sexy " vette as you say does not have. Sexy cars are not what I would look for spending this amount of money.

[turbo200]

Oh, and the Z06 looks better from the outside. There, I said it. I personally don't find the Viper to be that attractive.

I feel the Z06 looks more sleek and sexy and the Viper looks too upright.

I don't think either of them are really attractive. The Viper has a neat shape and proportions that are pretty cool, the Vette's small size and oversized features are neat, but overall they could both stand to be a lot more attractive. my favorite is the 911.

But that's just an unimportant side note to whether they could both stand together and be relevant from the same company.

When it comes to that argument, I tend to think of them as seperate brands with seperate identities; so yes, both are established enough that they could co-exist in this hypothetical GM marriage to Chrysler.

I would keep them on seperate platforms though.

Edited March 2, 2007 by turbo200

[Chicagoland]

Dodge is 'damaged' also. Has the of 'yeee hahh'/"Dukes of Hazzard" image. Some think they only make trucks. And some think of 'Dodge' when they really mean all of Mopar. While Jeep still has an image of being a 'separate entity' then Mopar.

GM is doing fine now, no need for Chrysler other than Jeep.

[Intrepidation]

I agree with that. I think Compass damaged Jeep's image, but not Commander. Hell, I think Commander is more hardcore Jeep than Liberty. Why do you think Liberty should stay and Commander should go (which is what will happen). Especially since the next Liberty gets miniCommander/Nitro styling. Commander filled the full size SUV niche for Chrysler for people that wouldnt look at Durango/Aspen (I know I wouldn't, but then again why should I with the GMT900s)

Someone gets it! Look, the Chrysler Group vehicles may not all be the prettiest, but all are distinct, and IMO most look good. Sure they botched up a couple of them (Sebring, Compass) but it's not like GM never came out with an ugly car (Malibu, Ion, L-series, the last Silverado...the SKYLARK!).

As said before, GM shouldn't own Chrysler Group. They have enough problems running their own brands (and forgetting about Saab). They'd just f@#k up Chrysler. IF they did buy them and kill off the brands, I'd sooner buy a Toyota than any GM vehicle, I'd hate them that much.

[Northstar]

No. The Viper would remain with a V10 giving it further exclusivity (how many V10s are there?) and it would continue with pricing between a Z06 and StingRay, with bolder more upright looks than both.

To each their own. I like the uprightness of the Viper to the sleekness of the Z06. If the two were late 4th Gen F-Bodies, the Viper would be a Firehawk while the Corvette would be the Camaro.

The Z06 is nice, but the Viper takes the cake for me.

I don't think you understand my point. If GM bought Chrysler, GM would not have a business case to build the Viper, because the only way they Viper would stay alive is if GM put in on the same platform as the Vette with at least a very similar engine (GM is not going to design/develop a V10 just for the Viper), and that makes no sense because then they're the same car with different styling.

[Northstar]

As said before, GM shouldn't own Chrysler Group. They have enough problems running their own brands (and forgetting about Saab). They'd just f@#k up Chrysler. IF they did buy them and kill off the brands, I'd sooner buy a Toyota than any GM vehicle, I'd hate them that much.

I think you'd be happier if GM bought Chrysler, kept the few good models, and kept the lineup small than Chrysler just killing itself. Also, GM can't f@#k up Chrysler because Chrysler already accomplished that.

[gm4life]

There is a 50 percent chance GM is buying them. What do they have to bring to the table anyways a new mini-van. I would just tell Diamler to eat crow and steal the mini-van plans, thats all GM maybe wants. Anyother move would be stupid. I would pay alot just for those hell more than what Chrysler and all there problems are worth. DON'T BUY 'EM STICK 13 BILLION IN PRODUCT DEVELOPEMENT!

[vrazzhledazzle]

March 01, 2007

In Chrysler's For-Sale Saga, Another One Bites the Dust

SHANGHAI, China — China's largest auto group, SAIC, said it has no plans to buy Chrysler or any other overseas firm. The company was responding to media reports that it has been talking with DaimlerChrysler.

Two years ago, SAIC acquired a controlling interest in Korean utility-vehicle make Ssangyong, and the company also holds a minority interest in GM Daewoo.

Reuters quoted an SAIC spokeswoman as saying, "We have no plans for acquisitions at the moment."

Another rumored Chinese suitor, FAW, also denied interest in buying Chrysler, joining such multinational car companies as Volkswagen, Fiat, Renault-Nissan and Hyundai in throwing cold water on rampant media speculation.

At the moment, General Motors appears to remain the sole automaker with an interest in Chrysler. The Financial Times reported earlier that DaimlerChrysler might take a stake in GM as part of a possible deal involving Chrysler.

What do you guys think about this? Is it a good thing that the China are out? I mean, of course it is, but that only makes a purchase by GM more likely...

[G. David Felt]

Personally let Chrysler die. The only good parts are Dodge and Jeep. Chryslers time is past and it should be retired. This would be good for all of the US and for GM and Ford.

I know there will be those here that will hate me for the comments, but reality is that not everyone survives for ever and with the debt this nation has, there is no need for the tax payers to bail out and save this small section of the auto world. Let it die a clean death and take dodge and jeep and keep it rocking on those alone with tweaked product portfolios.

IMO

[Intrepidation]

If Chrysler dies then I hope Buick dies first.

[Croc]

If Chrysler dies then I hope Buick dies first.

Grow up. Buick isn't hemorraging cash like the Chrysler group. Buick isn't completely mismanaged like the entire Chrysler group. Just because one of your favorite brands doesn't have the rosiest future doesn't mean you should act childish and wish everyone else goes down too. This is a GM fan site. Edited March 7, 2007 by Croc

[DBeaSSt]

Daimler CEO says Chrysler won't be auctioned

Linky

and the saga continues....