It's official. Chrysler's up for auction...NOT?

[FAPTurbo]

Another blindly loyal GM person who says "f@#k Chrysler" It's really no better than the Toyota import humpers

I'm sure if this situation were reversed and it was Chrysler looking to pick up GM, there would be plenty of Mopar fans saying similar things, and making of GM's 'sissy' 5.3L.

I know it sounds depressing talking about Chrysler being picked apart, with GM taking the spoils, but if GM does acquire the Minivan and Jeep, and perhaps the Caliber, you can be sure that GM will use those vehicles to their full potential and likely give the competition some real heat. That's probably the best ending for Chrysler in this situation.

[regfootball]

If GM buys anything, it should buy the minivan factory and tooling and the Jeep nameplate and be done with it. Sorry to all the MOPAR fans, but the rest of Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep is completely expendable, both to GM and to most of the automotive community.

Anyway, this was bound to happen. Chrysler has been riding this rollercoaster since the 1970s, up every five years, down for the next, so on and so on.

yup.

can someone photochop a GM grille on a new 2008 DCX van?

Edited February 21, 2007 by regfootball

[NOS2006]

Thanks, and I'm basing my statement on the assumption that Chrysler more or less evaporates with individual consortiums picking up the tangible resources leftover (plants, platforms, licensing, etc). If this can happen - and I'm not even sure it can or will - then GM has nothing to lose by acquiring just enough to plug holes in its own lineup at minimum expense. Rework the minivan lines to adopt GM powertrains, rework the Caliber likewise and give it to Pontiac as the next Vibe, keep as much of Jeep as authentic as possible (it will simply be the Jeep/Hummer Division), and let someone else deal with the UAW, the servicing, the warranties, and all the other bull$h!.

GM would naturally gain marketshare as many who buy Dodge and Chrysler would rather simply buy another American car. The Ram is rapidly aging at at the end of its product cycle. It'll be discontinued and those buyers can move into GM trucks. LX-cars would likewise die, but here comes the G8 and likewise. Anyone who cares about the Sebring and Avenger will be more than happy with an Epsilon car. Minivan buyers and Jeep lovers would see minimal changes to their preferred cars.

Again, all hypothetical and perhaps unrealistic, but I would like someone to tell me how the above possibility would not benefit GM?

Also, to the MOPAR fans, guess what? I like some Chryslers, too. I also loved Oldsmobile and I'm glad that if the oldest car manufacturer and a true institution had to die, it died going out with a lineup of some rather great cars. If Chrysler had to die, would you rather it go out now and see its legacy live on partially through the remaining domestic manufacturers or would you want it to meander aimlessly as a money-bleeding independent with lousy, half-ass and inferior automobiles, finally dying in the automotive gutter forgotten, unloved, and uncared for like Plymouth or AMC?

I absolutely agree with 100% of the above. Only thing, is that Chrysler could be far better for GM, if done right, than you've described above. Of course, your description only depicts the current situation, but look 10 years into the future and Chrysler could easily be flourishing again and jointly a part of GM rather than GM taking and using them (*cough* Mercedes) just for a few years. In ten years, Chrysler fell from what it was in '97, a company with an ambitious future, to what it is today. So many people would be upset if Chrysler pulled a Titanic, and I'm sure there would be many upset if GM bought Chrysler. All I'm saying is that GM and Chrysler could benefit in the long run by GM just saying yes and signing the check.

[AxelTheRed]

I'm not blindly loyal. But, like Fly said, aside from Jeep and the minivans, Chrysler is relatively irrelevant.

I really don't think so.

Kia is irrelevant. Suzuki is irrelevant. Mercury and Saab are irrelevant. I wouldn't count the Chrysler Group with them.

[FAPTurbo]

Kia is irrelevant.

?...

I'm not sure how Kia is irrelevant to Hyundai? Hyundai is gradually moving upmarket, and needs to have a low cost player to compete against the likes of Scion, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet/Daewoo's Aveo and others.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Captainbooyah

[NOS2006]

One more thing, Lutz served his time at Chrysler from 1986 until 1998, when Daimler took over. Would make him feel right at home if this happened, now wouldn't it? Irony?

[AxelTheRed]

?...

I'm not sure how Kia is irrelevant to Hyundai? Hyundai is gradually moving upmarket, and needs to have a low cost player to compete against the likes of Scion, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet/Daewoo's Aveo and others.

Just like I'm not sure how Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep are irrelevant? They do fit and compete quite well where they are.

[bowtie_dude]

Just like I'm not sure how Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep are irrelevant? They do fit and compete quite well where they are.

They do? Aside from Jeep, which has little in the way of actual competition really, and the minivans, what Chrysler product is competitive? What Chrysler product is better than a comparable product from the competition?

[Flybrian]

I can make a case for Dodge, but I cannot for Chrysler. Name one real appealing Chrysler product. 300. That's it. And even its desirability is waning. The PT Cruiser would sell just as well if it were a Plymouth as originally intended, the Sebring sells well...to Enterprise, the 300 again is only desirable in Touring and C trims, the Town & Country would sell just as well under any other nameplate, the Pacifica is a decent performer but nothing incredibly special, and the Aspen is a joke.

[NOS2006]

and the Aspen is a joke.

Even the mention of it, as above, made me laugh out loud.

[ehaase]

If GM acquires Chrysler, I think there's a possibility of Buick-Pontiac-GMC eventually being phased out. Chrysler is stronger than Buick, and Dodge is stronger than Pontiac-GMC. But I still don't think it would be a good idea for GM to buy Chrysler.

[76ChevyTrucker]

Al right, I think I'll buy a share in this one. I happen to like the minivans, and the Dodge trucks with the Cummins (mainly for the Cummins, not exactly for the truck itself), and I like Jeep. Heck, even my wife wants a Magnum! I'm not hoping that Chrysler up and dies, but at the same time, I can't honesly say that I hope that GM buys Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge in their entireity. If GM were in a better financial situation with a deal worked out with the unions to help with the healthcare issues and other legacy costs of being where they are, then I'd be all for buying the Chrysler group and selling CJD right there next to all of GM's products. I just can't see it being feasible at this current time.

[BatmanGTO]

Replacing HEMI's to make way for LSx's sounds kind of like ripping the heart out of Dodge, and replacing it with some super, bionic, heart apparatus which is programmed to kick ass.

Cool!

Even though it ends up being more efficent i wouldnt kill hemi..... theres just too much heritage/people that want the hemi just for the name albeit better engines being built in the future.

[Intrepidation]

They do? Aside from Jeep, which has little in the way of actual competition really, and the minivans, what Chrysler product is competitive? What Chrysler product is better than a comparable product from the competition?

The LX cars. What you all keep forgetting that the Zeta platform you're all creaming yourselves over and swearing up and down (without driving it) is better than the LX platform isn't in production in America yet. The Charger's sales continue to be strong, the 300 has not dropped dramatically, and the Magnum sells badly because people are idiots who think they need an SUV instead of a wagon...cuz it's uncool (to have a 345 hp wagon wih 20" wheels...yeah...uncool indeed ). I suppose the FWD ancient platform on which the Impala is based is superior? Or maybe the archaic Panther platform with it's pathetic 220 something horsepower V8 is better? Oh it must be the lame ass 500-err Taurus that's superior? No? Didn't think so. Until the G8 is on sale there is nothing that can comepete with the LX cars.

The Caliber is competetive. The interior may be cheap but it is functional. I see more of them than Cobalts and Cobalts have been out longer.

The Nitro is unique to this class in that it's not a p*ssy CUV. It has style, power, and functinality. How many vehicles in it's class have all of those attributes? The CR-V?

The Viper (though a niche product) is more than competitive. It is an excellent beast of a machine just as the Corvette is.

The Avenger may not be perfect (roofline) but then neither is the new Malibu (lame-ass...pun intended), it may be down 20 or so horsepower, but it has a 6-speed and is no slouch.

I may not care for the Sebring but peopel obviously like it if it sells. My girlfriend thinks it's very pretty for example.

The Pacifica started the large Crossover craze. it's not perfect but it's a handsome vehicle with a beautiful interior and a good powertrain. 3rd road occupants may not love it but the first 2 rows probably do.

The PT Cruiser is still a decent seller after all these ears and kicked off the retro fad that GM itself decided to copy.

The Durango is aging but is still unique size-wise.

The Ram has it's own loyal following and is no pushover truck. The GMT-900's are superior (except the trannies), but they are newer, so that's expected.

The Dakota has the only V8 in it's class and the highest towing capacity. It's worlds better than the $h!box Canyon/Colorado twins.

--

The Sebring may not be my cup of tea but people obviously like it if it sells. My girlfriend likes i a lot and thinks it's very pretty for example.

The PT Cruiser kicked off the retro fad with GM copying it eventually. It still sells decently.

The Pacifica created the large crossover market. It still oooks good, has an excellent interior, and has a good powertrain. 3d row occupants may not love it but the first 2 rows probably do.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Dodgefan

[AxelTheRed]

They do? Aside from Jeep, which has little in the way of actual competition really, and the minivans, what Chrysler product is competitive? What Chrysler product is better than a comparable product from the competition?

The LX cars for one. And I wouldn't call the Sebring, Viper, Nitro, Ram, Durango, Crossfire or Pacifica chopped liver.

I'm curious, by "comparable product", were you only thinking of GM's?

GM has plenty of brands that meet the same stigma you say Chrysler has.

For example: Name a Saab product that is better than a comparable product from the competition. Any Pontiac other than the Solstice? Where would Buick be without the Enclave?

Edited February 22, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[Ravenfreak13]

This is all happening so fast. It's way too much...Chrysler could have more success than buick...Chrysler still upholds a classy image..while buick is just known as indistructable tanks driven by old people. It's about reputation. Think about it...buick really just has enclave and lucerne...slap a chrysler grill on enclave and poof! new pacifica.

Although I do like both brands...chrysler has a better future then buick.

I never really liked dodge much...except he pickups and the viper...everything else is essentially reskinned.

[Intrepidation]

The LX cars for one. And I wouldn't call the Sebring, Viper, Nitro, Ram, Durango, Crossfire or Pacifica chopped liver.

I'm curious, by "comparable product", were you only thinking of GM's?

GM has plenty of brands that meet the same stigma you say Chrysler has.

For example: Name a Saab product that is better than a comparable product from the competition. Any Pontiac other than the Solstice? Where would Buick be without the Enclave?

I suppose we should dump those too, like most people here want to happen to Chrysler...oh wait...GM bias...nevermind. You make great points.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Dodgefan

[vrazzhledazzle]

The Caliber is competetive. The interior may be cheap but it is functional. I see more of them than Cobalts and Cobalts have been out longer.

The Nitro is unique to this class in that it's not a p*ssy CUV. It has style, power, and functinality. How many vehicles in it's class have all of those attributes? The CR-V?

I am starting to agree with you. With better interiors, the Caliber is a great replacement for the Vibe, the Nitro is perfect to replace the Torrent, forget about the Demon concept and keep the Solstice, upgrade the G6 with the Torana from Holden and kill the Avenger, Charger or G8 is a tough choice (for me at least)

[NOS2006]

The PT Cruiser kicked off the retro fad with GM copying it eventually. It still sells decently.

I could call you out on a few of your points, but that's not what I'm here in this thread to do. However, this point is a stretch. Wasn't it Bob Lutz that put the PT into production? Then Bob Lutz that OK'd the HHR? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[pow]

If Pontiac and Dodge overlap too much, I guess they could make Dodge a truck-only brand. Pontiac is to Dodge as Chevrolet is to GMC. Pontiac/Dodge could be the trashier "value" brands.

[Flybrian]

Do you people who see 'popular' Calibers and Sebrings understand that the vast majority are probably rentals? Chrysler has thousands and thousands of cars that dealers can't swallow because they're still sitting on last year's models. And I don't care about how 'tough' the Nitro is or how 'OMGMYPANTS' the Magnum SRT-8 is because NO ONE IS BUYING THEM. How many SRTs of anything have you seen? How many 300s with barcodes have you seen?

Its a sad, sad thing that the first time I see a recent new Chrysler product like the Commander, Aspen, Sebring, Avenger, or Nitro it has a rental barcode somewhere on the glass. I'll bust out these numbers again because its obviously necessary:

300 - 28% fleet

Caliber - 37% fleet

Charger - 35% fleet

Durango - 41% fleet

Magnum - 49% fleet

And before someone does the predictable thing and bring up the Malibu, Impala, and Grand Prix, we know and that's the point. Remember, these are the 'hot' models that 'show no signs of cooling off' and 'everyone wants one.' It shows you just how well Chrysler can move the metal, i.e. it cannot. It cannot sell the glut of Rams languishing on dealer lots, even with $3000, $5000, sometimes $7000 on the hood. It can't sell the Durango. It can't sell the Dakota. It can't sell much.

You can lust over the HEMI and brag about how the SRTs PWN everything in sight, but it does not matter at all in the context of what is best for General Motors if they are acquiring Chrysler! You guys are forgetting that with all this supposed good that comes with the altruistic saving of Chrysler comes all the pain and suffering - the organizational duplication, the excess plant capacity, the unneeded workers, the duplicate platforms, the duplicate engineering, the extra dealers, the overwhelming amount of warranty claims, the unsold inventory...not to mention how its going to be possible to fully integrate engines, transmissions, parts, etc. into its own corporate structure in the long term.

You all are thinking with your hearts, not your minds. You want GM to be the savior and save another 'great' American institution. Fine. Let them. And in the process, let GM end up martyring itself so we can have one more decade of Chrysler products that can't give themselves away. GM CANNOT AFFORD TO DEAL WITH CHRYSLER'S PROBLEMS BECAUSE GM HAS ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF ITS OWN.

I also don't understand where people get this idea that Chrysler is 'one great product away' from a turnaround. Its had several great products and its still in the toilet. Remember the K-car? The minivan? The explosion of Jeep? The LH-cars? The Ram? The LX-Cars? All 'great,' remember? And if the federal government can't help Chrysler out, how can another still-ailing automaker hope to accomplish it?

GM has far, far more to benefit from watching Chrysler crash and burn and tear itself to shreds and swoop in to gather the worthwhile pieces from its carcass than it does wasting hundreds of millions of dollars trying to help stabilize an organization that hasn't been able to keep itself in the black for the past thirty-five years.

And so do I. Because I'm a General Motors fan first, and I can also see what will happen to the remaining members of the American auto industry if they get too wrapped up in 'helping' Chrysler. Here's a few hints - Toyota. Hyundai. Nissan. They're smart enough not to get involved in a full-on aquisition. GM should be that smart, too.

[AxelTheRed]

I don't think there's anyone on this website that wants GM to buy Chrysler.

Only thing anyone is really saying in defense of Chrysler is in retaliation to the "Chrysler sucks and has to go" crowd.

I'm sure most of us would rather Chrysler become its own company again instead of getting broken apart and sold off, or be part of a company that bought it, but never wanted anything to do with it.

[vrazzhledazzle]

Another article I forgot about:

Analysts say 50/50 chance of GM-Chrysler tie-up

General Motors stands a 50 percent chance of buying Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge from DaimlerChrysler, according to Merrill Lynch analyst John Murphy, who said such a move would be a "defensive maneuver."

"Given the transformation the U.S. industry is beginning, we would not rule out a tie-up," Murphy said in a memo to investors today. "GM may view the acquisition as a defensive maneuver to box out new competition."

With Toyota's sales climbing, GM's "global volume lead is certainly in question," he said. "The acquisition of Chrysler would certainly allow GM to maintain its crown for many years to come."

Chrysler could add as much as $9 billion in value to GM due to products and "operating efficiencies including reduced research and development and advertising costs per vehicle," Jon Rogers, an analyst at Citigroup.

The UAW might also be more willing to make concessions if Chrysler is owned by an American company rather than a foreign one, Rogers said.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/02/20/ana...hrysler-tie-up/

Edited February 22, 2007 by vrazzhledazzle

[Farkas]

With Toyota's sales climbing, GM's "global volume lead is certainly in question," he said. "The acquisition of Chrysler would certainly allow GM to maintain its crown for many years to come."

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/02/20/ana...hrysler-tie-up/

I'd rather GM be in the #2 spot with more excellent products than the #1 spot with more lukewarm products.

[Clownzilla]

Well, since the Chinese want a good inroad into the USA automotive market, and an entire USA automotive corporation is up for sell..............................

[roadwarrior]

The Ram has it's own loyal following and is no pushover truck. The GMT-900's are superior (except the trannies), but they are newer, so that's expected.

Come again? Dodge with better trannies? Perhaps better than the holdover HydraMatic 4-speeds, but I'd take an Allison trans over anything Dodge makes any day of the week...and the 4-speed is on its way out the door. My sis has a Ram...chunked 2 Dodge trannies in less than 100K miles. I know a guy who just bought a new Big Horn and has already ordered a 3rd party trans.

[roadwarrior]

Well, since the Chinese want a good inroad into the USA automotive market, and an entire USA automotive corporation is up for sell..............................

Eew, makes me want to puke. I think I'd rather Chrysler die a quick death than let the commies run it. Besides, we're all already dumping billions upon billions that way in imbalanced trade every year anyway, I'd hate for Americans to dump even more...

[ehaase]

And so do I. Because I'm a General Motors fan first, and I can also see what will happen to the remaining members of the American auto industry if they get too wrapped up in 'helping' Chrysler. Here's a few hints - Toyota. Hyundai. Nissan. They're smart enough not to get involved in a full-on aquisition. GM should be that smart, too.

That was the best post you have ever written and shows why you are the right person to be running this board.

[njtex]

If GM buys Chrysler will they be viewed as the "good guy" coming in to save the day or the big bully picking over Chrysler's bones on the cheap? Hate to see GM get a black eye here because I'm sure the press will be all over it with their "big bad GM bias".

It would also be really interesting to know the list of companies that DCAG will not sell Chrysler to. My guess is that they want to sell Chrysler to GM so that it becomes an "American" problem and they can avoid the negative stigma of turning the company over to the asians. I'm also sure they don't want to see Toyota get any stronger too. Bet they wouldn't sell to VW either because it would hurt their pride if VW pumped a little money in and turned Chryler around.

The sad thing is that Chrysler's problems are only temporary and due to over production. Hate to see the big mess that DCAG created also take out GM too.

[vrazzhledazzle]

Well, since the Chinese want a good inroad into the USA automotive market, and an entire USA automotive corporation is up for sell..............................

Would you f@#ks stop saying that!?!! That's the worst thing ever. Can you imagine how bad Chryslers will look then? China is America's worst enemy. I want their economy to collapse before it becomes a superpower or something and then we'd have to deal with them on everything. I don't want them to have anything american. Make your own $h!! Hopefully they'll screw themselves over eventually.

[gm4life]

Only the biggest and best will live let them die. I am sorry. Fly I agree with you except about Jeep, get the mini-van factories and specs and dumb the rest of the $h!. They have $h!y products, Caliber, new Sebring and Avenger oh and the ugly 300 let 'em die. For god sakes if it was a good deal Toyota would have been all-over it trust me. The mini-van platform might be worth a million but that is all. Shove a 3.6L DOHC V6 in there and call it good enough.

[bowtie_dude]

That was the best post you have ever written and shows why you are the right person to be running this board.

Fly is the bee's knees, as the saying goes. He roxxors my boxxors, as another saying goes.

In other words, HE DA MAN!

[Intrepidation]

Come again? Dodge with better trannies? Perhaps better than the holdover HydraMatic 4-speeds, but I'd take an Allison trans over anything Dodge makes any day of the week...and the 4-speed is on its way out the door. My sis has a Ram...chunked 2 Dodge trannies in less than 100K miles. I know a guy who just bought a new Big Horn and has already ordered a 3rd party trans.

I did not say the trannies were any better in quality I mean it has an extra gear compared to the 4-speed in the Silverado and F-150.

I don't want GM to own Chrysler, it's bad for GM and bad for Chrysler...we all pretty much agree on that.

I'm sick of all the negativity "Chrysler products are crap, inferior to everything GM has, GM is t3h g0d and Chrysler is t3h suxzorz, let the Chinese buy them" bull $h!.

Chrysler should be it's own company again. f@#k the Germans, f@#k the Asians, f@#k the French, f@#k GM owning it.

You know I'm well aware this is a GM fansite first, so I expect people to have their priorities on GM, but hell, even Ford gets better remarks than Chrysler "c'mon Ford, we love you" VS "let the Chinese have Chrysler"

It seems to be a lot of anti-Chrysler sentiment lately...or always I guess. Whatever, there's no longer a point in trying to defend the company since no one here except like 4 people gives a rat's ass...so I'm done with the thread.

[NOS2006]

I think you just see it that way, dodgefan. I see just as much negativity toward Ford as Chrysler. However, it's two different cases. Ford is an 80 year old man trying to fit in with teens while his relatives are searching for a casket, and Chrysler's the red-headed stepchild that nobody wants to adopt. Unfortunately, that right there is 2/3 of our American Big Three.

[Intrepidation]

I'm also in a bad mood, so that probably doesn't help. :\

[NOS2006]

Ahh gotcha. Bad feelings dismissed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think if Dodge is acquired, it would become somewhat like GMC, more trucks/SUVs than cars. They could kill the Avenger, kill the Charger, keep the Caliber (instead of Vibe), kill the Viper, and then let Pontiac do cars and Dodge would have the Ram, Grand Caravan, and perhaps the Nitro and Durango, although they might step on the toes of the GMC Theta and Yukon. The Ram would obviously step on the toes of the Sierra/Silverado, but I think that at the volume it does it's not worth risking killing it and losing sales. It'd be better to develop three and spread the costs around than develop two and lose the Ram's sales to elsewhere.

I think this is an excellent bet... GMC is much better paired with Buick than Pontiac. They're both 'upscale' divisions that sell to essentially the same target audience. Then GMC could prop up Buick (If GM needed it to)

Dodge, being performance and style oriented could become the truck part of Pontiac (Although I'd be sad to see the Dodge cars go) Dodge purists could adapt to Pontiac better than any other GM division IMO.

The only problem would be dealers... GM's P/B/GMC dealers just went through the re-alignment. Some of them begrudgingly. Now they're going to have to shuffle again. And what's to become of the Dodge dealers.

I guess you could take the 'mean' of both dealer bodies and come up with one strong dealer body. I mean, obviously some of the Dodge dealers will bail and I'd say it's a sure bet that a few disgruntled P/B/GMC dealers will bail. But I bet GM could still get a nice number of franchises.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If GM acquires Chrysler, I think there's a possibility of Buick-Pontiac-GMC eventually being phased out. Chrysler is stronger than Buick, and Dodge is stronger than Pontiac-GMC. But I still don't think it would be a good idea for GM to buy Chrysler.

Chrysler might be stronger than Buick and Dodge is stronger than Pontiac...

But saying that Dodge is stronger than GMC is a big stretch. GMC is VERY profitable and was earmarked by Wagoner as an "expansion' division along with Saturn and Hummer. It turns a lot of volume, especially to be basically a Chevrolet with some dressing.

[Ravenfreak13]

If Chrysler was bought by GM....Idon't see why GM couldn't just keep the chysler dealership network and keep Chrysler a seperate company with seperate product...part sharing could be benificial to both companies though...GM would just own both. All GM needs to do to with Chrysler is do what they did with themselve...improve quality...and now GM has the resources and the brainpower to do it.

GM could benifet from Chryslers HEMI's, yes essentials seating material, cooling/warming cupholders, cooled glovebox etc. While Chrysler could receive the interior quality upgrades, restructuring of trim levels and packaging, styling changes etc.

Also, If GM could get a good enough deal, they could take all left over unsold 06 stock and sell it cheap and make profit off of it...one mans trash is another man's treasure.

[vrazzhledazzle]

OK you guys are suggesting that GM kill Chrysler's cars like flies. Kill this, kill that, kill everything except like 2 cars. If GM should just kill nearly everything, then they shouldn't buy Chrysler in the first place. I mean "Chrysler getting saved by GM" or "keeping Chrysler alive" is BS if GM buys it, kills, everything, closes all the dealers, closes most plants, cuts most jobs, and keeps 3-4 cars. That doesn't make sense.

And everyone is dreaming up what to do with Dodge and how to incorporate it with B-P-G...what about Chrysler? Kill that too? (I think we've figured out Jeep)

Edited February 22, 2007 by vrazzhledazzle

[vrazzhledazzle]

If Chrysler was bought by GM....Idon't see why GM couldn't just keep the chysler dealership network and keep Chrysler a seperate company with seperate product...part sharing could be benificial to both companies though...GM would just own both. All GM needs to do to with Chrysler is do what they did with themselve...improve quality...and now GM has the resources and the brainpower to do it.

GM could benifet from Chryslers HEMI's, yes essentials seating material, cooling/warming cupholders, cooled glovebox etc. While Chrysler could receive the interior quality upgrades, restructuring of trim levels and packaging, styling changes etc.

Also, If GM could get a good enough deal, they could take all left over unsold 06 stock and sell it cheap and make profit off of it...one mans trash is another man's treasure.

Perfect. Exactly what I was thinking. Product overlap? Yea, but big deal. All the sales go to the same company. Share parts and other things which saves money which would make up for the development of so many different models.

Edited February 22, 2007 by vrazzhledazzle

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I could call you out on a few of your points, but that's not what I'm here in this thread to do. However, this point is a stretch. Wasn't it Bob Lutz that put the PT into production? Then Bob Lutz that OK'd the HHR? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not only that but Brian Nesbitt designed both vehicles. He originally worked at Chrysler and now works at GM.

*** I certainly wouldn't rule any of the Chrysler divisions out yet. They all have decent to competitive products, they all have fresh products and they all have products that are still selling pretty well (eventhough there has been losses) Not to mention, they're still rolling a lot of stuff out and rectifying a lot of the 'weaker' products in their line up.

Just this year they've rolled out the new Sebring and Avenger (Laugh if you will, but they WILL sell) and refreshed Magnum, Viper and Dakota and the new Wrangler just to mention a few.

This just all seems weird to me... It's like Daimler just said on a whim "we might sell Chrysler" at a random autoshow and then the board was like "Seriously?" and everyone said "Sure, why not."

I don't know that it ALL has to do with Chrysler losing money, it's almost as if the Germans just 'all of the sudden' lost interest.

I don't think we'll see the company die It might get smaller (Which isn't really a bad thing---as we've seen from GM) but keep in mind this is Chryselr, Dodge and Jeep we're talking about here. The names themselves have enough equity for SOMEONE to save them. If Daimler didn't ultimately find a buyer, I'd be SERIOUSLY surprised.

[Ravenfreak13]

Honestly...what is wrong with their cars besides interior quality....ofcourse there are some design flaws...but what else?

They have compitant engines, great designs(for the most part), some smaller innovations, and not many brands...3.

[Ravenfreak13]

Perfect. Exactly what I was thinking. Product overlap? Yea, but big deal. All the sales go to the same company. Share parts and other things saves money which would make up for the development of some many different models.

Exactly....GM will just have more to watch over.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If GM buys Chrysler will they be viewed as the "good guy" coming in to save the day or the big bully picking over Chrysler's bones on the cheap? Hate to see GM get a black eye here because I'm sure the press will be all over it with their "big bad GM bias".

I agree... The press and ANALysts would damn the merger before the ink dryed on the paper. partially because they're idiots and partially because it has the potential to make GM too powerful. They'll be out to get GM and 'phase the Chrysler divisions out' within DAYS of the signed contract.

It would also be really interesting to know the list of companies that DCAG will not sell Chrysler to. My guess is that they want to sell Chrysler to GM so that it becomes an "American" problem and they can avoid the negative stigma of turning the company over to the asians. I'm also sure they don't want to see Toyota get any stronger too. Bet they wouldn't sell to VW either because it would hurt their pride if VW pumped a little money in and turned Chryler around.

I'd say they'd sell to Toyota in a New York minute if Toyota forked over the $$$ (Which everybody knows Toyocrap has) simply to get the money AND because once Chrysler is jettisoned, Daimler no longer has to play the "volume" game. But, Toyota and Honda are smart enough NOT to even get in it. Toyota 1) Doesn't want to take away from their core operations (That is already starting to fray around the edges with the countless recalls and 'even more bland than before', cheapened products) and 2) They'd fear a political and societal backlash from americans. They're already running scared, and if they slipped up or if opinion shifted with a Chrysler acquisition, it could begin a huge death spiral that just feeds on itself. Think about it; americans get pissed about a Jap company buying good 'ole Chrysler, this brings up the "hey, wait a minute, you've been destroying our industry all along" talk. Then americans start to boycott Chrysler even more and Toyota as well. Toyota no longer has it's cash cow because their american market is erroding, not to mention Chrysler starts to act as an anchor, losing even MORE money, gaining more pension deficit and causeing turmoil with the UAW (Which is a nightmare in itself.) Chrsyler withers and dies which leaves an already black balled Toyota with the blood of an american icon on its hands... and Toyota would NEVER recover. Not to mention, the UAW alone is probably enough to deter Toyota.

Renault is out because the Nissan 'fad' is quickly ending (See the other thread for my thoughts on this.)

VW still isn't in the best of shape, not to mention they have the same "too many damn brands" "Problem" as GM (VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Bentley/Lambo/Bugatti... Did I forget any?) AND I don't think the foolish pride of the MB folks would even let them think twice about the prospect of VW.

The sad thing is that Chrysler's problems are only temporary and due to over production. Hate to see the big mess that DCAG created also take out GM too.

I agree... I don't know why the Germans have suddenly gone schizo.... Maybe they (And GM) know more than we do.

My apologies to everyone for the "Thread domination"

[Cory Wolfe]

Another problem Chrysler had is this volume thing. Why is Chrysler such a volume division? Why is it home to the cheapest car in the whole group (PT Cruiser)? Why is the base 300 such a pile of crap that costs MORE than a BETTER-EQUIPPED Charger? Why does the 'new' Sebring offer uncompetitive, junk powertrains in two of its three trims? Why is the only tangible difference between a Dodge and a Chrysler simply the wrapping?

Agreed.

Well, what do you expect of a GM forum?

I really don't see everybody being anti-Chrysler. Most of the "attacks" are saying that Chrysler isn't worth GM's money. I'm saying the opposite and thinking Chrysler might be viable for GM to buy, but who really knows what would happen if it worked out? Either way, we'll just have to wait and see.

Exactly.

Thanks, and I'm basing my statement on the assumption that Chrysler more or less evaporates with individual consortiums picking up the tangible resources leftover (plants, platforms, licensing, etc). If this can happen - and I'm not even sure it can or will - then GM has nothing to lose by acquiring just enough to plug holes in its own lineup at minimum expense. Rework the minivan lines to adopt GM powertrains, rework the Caliber likewise and give it to Pontiac as the next Vibe, keep as much of Jeep as authentic as possible (it will simply be the Jeep/Hummer Division), and let someone else deal with the UAW, the servicing, the warranties, and all the other bull$h!.

GM would naturally gain marketshare as many who buy Dodge and Chrysler would rather simply buy another American car. The Ram is rapidly aging at at the end of its product cycle. It'll be discontinued and those buyers can move into GM trucks. LX-cars would likewise die, but here comes the G8 and likewise. Anyone who cares about the Sebring and Avenger will be more than happy with an Epsilon car. Minivan buyers and Jeep lovers would see minimal changes to their preferred cars.

Again, all hypothetical and perhaps unrealistic, but I would like someone to tell me how the above possibility would not benefit GM?

Also, to the MOPAR fans, guess what? I like some Chryslers, too. I also loved Oldsmobile and I'm glad that if the oldest car manufacturer and a true institution had to die, it died going out with a lineup of some rather great cars. If Chrysler had to die, would you rather it go out now and see its legacy live on partially through the remaining domestic manufacturers or would you want it to meander aimlessly as a money-bleeding independent with lousy, half-ass and inferior automobiles, finally dying in the automotive gutter forgotten, unloved, and uncared for like Plymouth or AMC?

What he said.

Do you people who see 'popular' Calibers and Sebrings understand that the vast majority are probably rentals? Chrysler has thousands and thousands of cars that dealers can't swallow because they're still sitting on last year's models. And I don't care about how 'tough' the Nitro is or how 'OMGMYPANTS' the Magnum SRT-8 is because NO ONE IS BUYING THEM. How many SRTs of anything have you seen? How many 300s with barcodes have you seen?

Its a sad, sad thing that the first time I see a recent new Chrysler product like the Commander, Aspen, Sebring, Avenger, or Nitro it has a rental barcode somewhere on the glass. I'll bust out these numbers again because its obviously necessary:

300 - 28% fleet

Caliber - 37% fleet

Charger - 35% fleet

Durango - 41% fleet

Magnum - 49% fleet

And before someone does the predictable thing and bring up the Malibu, Impala, and Grand Prix, we know and that's the point. Remember, these are the 'hot' models that 'show no signs of cooling off' and 'everyone wants one.' It shows you just how well Chrysler can move the metal, i.e. it cannot. It cannot sell the glut of Rams languishing on dealer lots, even with $3000, $5000, sometimes $7000 on the hood. It can't sell the Durango. It can't sell the Dakota. It can't sell much.

You can lust over the HEMI and brag about how the SRTs PWN everything in sight, but it does not matter at all in the context of what is best for General Motors if they are acquiring Chrysler! You guys are forgetting that with all this supposed good that comes with the altruistic saving of Chrysler comes all the pain and suffering - the organizational duplication, the excess plant capacity, the unneeded workers, the duplicate platforms, the duplicate engineering, the extra dealers, the overwhelming amount of warranty claims, the unsold inventory...not to mention how its going to be possible to fully integrate engines, transmissions, parts, etc. into its own corporate structure in the long term.

You all are thinking with your hearts, not your minds. You want GM to be the savior and save another 'great' American institution. Fine. Let them. And in the process, let GM end up martyring itself so we can have one more decade of Chrysler products that can't give themselves away. GM CANNOT AFFORD TO DEAL WITH CHRYSLER'S PROBLEMS BECAUSE GM HAS ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF ITS OWN.

I also don't understand where people get this idea that Chrysler is 'one great product away' from a turnaround. Its had several great products and its still in the toilet. Remember the K-car? The minivan? The explosion of Jeep? The LH-cars? The Ram? The LX-Cars? All 'great,' remember? And if the federal government can't help Chrysler out, how can another still-ailing automaker hope to accomplish it?

GM has far, far more to benefit from watching Chrysler crash and burn and tear itself to shreds and swoop in to gather the worthwhile pieces from its carcass than it does wasting hundreds of millions of dollars trying to help stabilize an organization that hasn't been able to keep itself in the black for the past thirty-five years.

And so do I. Because I'm a General Motors fan first, and I can also see what will happen to the remaining members of the American auto industry if they get too wrapped up in 'helping' Chrysler. Here's a few hints - Toyota. Hyundai. Nissan. They're smart enough not to get involved in a full-on aquisition. GM should be that smart, too.

Best post evar. Fly makes my job easy. All I have to do is agree.

Anywho, some of you need to pop some pills and chill out the f@#k out. As has been said, Chrysler has had ample opportunities to turn itself around. It hasn't. It will have a few good products every now and then, but for the most part, they've had lackluster product, especially right now. They're not selling and Daimler hasn't really prospered from the merger, thusly, auctioning it off from much less than they paid. Oh well. It's not the end of the world. Get over it.

[regfootball]

one sitting or drive in a Nitro is all you need to know to NOT want DCX in the fold.

Or maybe GM is seduced by those tasty second row swivel n go seats in the new minivan!!!

[turbo200]

Its a sad, sad thing that the first time I see a recent new Chrysler product like the Commander, Aspen, Sebring, Avenger, or Nitro it has a rental barcode somewhere on the glass. I'll bust out these numbers again because its obviously necessary:

300 - 28% fleet

Caliber - 37% fleet

Charger - 35% fleet

Durango - 41% fleet

Magnum - 49% fleet

where did you get these numbers from? can you provide a link? i would like to see current numbers for GM.

[-Camaro-]

If GM buys them they should revive plymouth and make them purely a muscle car company. Nothing else and low volume if they must, but hopefully it would appeal to make it compete with the mustang.

[Dragon]

there are other consideration beyond lineup as to why P-G-B should be kept and Dodge chopped if this were to happen. Namely, PGB is already fully integrated into GM's management structure. I think it would take more time and effort (re: cash) to chop Dodge than it would to chop P-G and integrate Dodge. There is also is also the existing dealer network that might not be too happy.

Then there is also the GM customer base. There could be a good number of loyal GM customers who would consider it a slap in the face to chop P-G just to integrate Dodge. Sure Dodge fans will be pissed GM killed the brand, but that is more understandable because they are an outside brand being purchased