DCX seeks sale of Chrysler to...GM?

[Houze968]

It seems the answer to this move would be a resounding and unapologetic: NO

It would be a stupid and unwise business move if GM were to do this.

As noted here , most completely agree with the author.

[SoCalCTS]

It might actually be cheaper for GM to BUY marketshare than earn it.

I heard Chrysler was going for fire sale prices.

[Variance]

From Automotive News (I don't have a subscription):

Sources: GM in talks about buying Chrysler group

General Motors is in negotiations to buy the struggling Chrysler group in its entirety, say sources in Germany and the United States. High-level talks are taking place between DaimlerChrysler AG and GM executives. Although the two companies have discussed cooperation on a large SUV, say sources at both companies, the potential deal would go beyond limited product development alliances.

Automotive News (sub. req'd)

[Cadillacfan]

No no no no no!!! This has disaster written all over it. This idea is even worse then the Nissan/Renault merger with GM.

I'm really getting angry if this is truely going down.

[6t5frlane]

Yup Gm is gonna buy DCX and Ford and call it American Motors !!! Allright a New AMX !!

[haypops]

I could see Chrysler and Ford combining, but I don't get GM's possible interest. I think that Ford-Chrysler would give them some economies of scale that they may not have individually. GM however is so much bigger than its domestic rivals these economies of scale wouldn't prevail as much.

It is also interesting to note that Chrysler and Ford truck offerings fit together better. That is Ford is strong in pick up trucks; Chrysler not so much. Chrysler is strong in diesel engines(Cummings); Ford no so much (present Navistar is troublesome). Chrysler is strong in minivans, Ford not so much (hell they are leaving the market entirely).

OK; let me have it!

[Robert Hall]

I could see Chrysler and Ford combining, but I don't get GM's possible interest. I think that Ford-Chrysler would give them some economies of scale that they may not have individually. GM however is so much bigger than its domestic rivals these economies of scale wouldn't prevail as much.

It is also interesting to note that Chrysler and Ford truck offerings fit together better. That is Ford is strong in pick up trucks; Chrysler not so much. Chrysler is strong in diesel engines(Cummings); Ford no so much (present Navistar is troublesome). Chrysler is strong in minivans, Ford not so much (hell they are leaving the market entirely).

OK; let me have it!

And Chrysler has RWD/AWD full size models now, GM's are still a couple years off.. and Dodge has the Dakota, GM has nothing comparable..

The brands could be:

Chevy, DodgePontiacGMC, ChryslerBuick, Saturn, Saab, JeepHummer, Cadillac...

It seems like it would be a very odd merger..way too much overlap.

Edited February 16, 2007 by moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

And Chrysler has RWD/AWD full size models now, GM's are still a couple years off.. and Dodge has the Dakota, GM has nothing comparable..

Chrysler can't even sell it's RWD/AWD models these days, what makes you think that GM could sell them better?

As far as the Dakota....

It invoices $700 MORE than the most basic GMT-900 Silverado, but add any options and the Silverado quickly becomes the better deal simply by being more truck. So... GM not only has something comparible, it's competition far exceeds the Dakota. Dakota needs rebates to move.... Silverado currently has none.

[FAPTurbo]

If this happens... does this mean we have to share a forum with a bunch of Mopar nuts?

[Variance]

If this happens... does this mean we have to share a forum with a bunch of Mopar nuts?

What, we don't already?

[FAPTurbo]

What, we don't already?

Well, we got the smart ones; the ones who generally provide intelligent answers and arguments using facts. But having seen some posters on Mopar forums, I'd have to wonder if the theory of evolution is true.

I suppose the same can be said on any forum though.

[Viperfan07]

Wow ya'll are cruel. Killing off Dodge??!!? When I first read the headline, my heart sank. If GM does buy Chrysler what exactly does that mean for Chrysler? Could it mean better interiors for Chrysler? And what would happen to the Viper? Can GM have two 600 hp vehicles under the same roof? But this would mean a larger presence in NA for GM and overseas.

If I were GM and I bought Chrysler, I would significantly upgrade Chrysler's interiors, fast track the redesign of the Sebring/Avenger, kill the Compass, Aspen and keep Jeep intact. Dealers would still be separate and the GM badge wouldn't appear on any Chrysler products. It would be more like a merger I guess. But I cannot imagine seeing the GM badge on any Chrysler vehicles. Love both companies but they need to stay separate.

PS: It's times like these where I wish I could buy the Chrysler Group...

[Houze968]

Cue "newsy" music with a Walter Kronkite voice-over....

This just in, GM invests in money pit...that is all

Al Gore wins again, yet another blow to Ralph Nader

[Robert Hall]

I just don't see what the advantage for GM would be.. I want to see Chrysler survive and thrive, I want to see Ford survive and thrive, and I want to GM survive and thrive..but as 3 independent entities...

[OnlyGM4Me]

We could afford it by killing Dodge, replace Saturn with Chrysler, and selling off Saab.

This would restre GM's orginal 5 brand liine-up.

Chevrolet

Pontiac

Chrysler(Oldsmobile)

Buick

Cadillac

I'd rather have Chrysler between Pontiac & Buick than Saturn. At least Chrysler is a decent replacement of Olds.

Chrysler sells 500k per year, thats a good boost in GM's sales, even while chopping off Dodge and Saturn.

GM better buy it or Toyota might to jump ahead of GM in the US and globally.

If GM could benefit from a Chrysler buyout, I'm for, otherwise it can only delay GM's rebirth.

See, I think that If this were to happen (not saying I want it to by any means) That it would be more like this:

Hummer/Jeep together

Chevrolet still as the mainstream total volume brand.

Dodge REPLACES Pontiac eventually. (I mean be honest, they are in the same market position as a Sporty brand and Dodge does sell more and has a better image than Pontiac)

Saturn for Import fighting.

Chrysler REPLACES Buick (Again, same sort of market position, but Chrysler has a slightly better reputation)

Cadillac still as the flagship

The only answer I don't have is for GMC. I mean, You should put Dodge and GMC together and do away with one truck line. But that doesn't seem likely to me even in my own hypothetical evaluation here.

But Lutz has said that Pontiac and Buick are damaged, and really not a lot is happening to either except for Enclave and G8. I think that it would be smart for GM to consider doing away with them IF they do buy Chrysler.

Just my two cents though.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

GM needs to just say no. Big time. Why GM even is considering this is beyond me. Any effect it has on GM can only be negative and work against whatever momentum they have gained. DCX needs things like interiors upgraded, designs improved, product lines revised -- the mess is huge and to have GM tackle that would really put a damper on progress being made. It makes no sense from a business standpoint other than a major competitor would be taken out.

GM walked away from anything to with Ford and that was the right decision. They need to walk away here as well.

[hyperv6]

What are we missing here?

GM has to see or know something we are don't if they are really entertaining such an idea.

Word on the street is the price that is wanted for Chrysler is cheap. Also would any of the debts be passed on or would Daimler offer to cover some of them. Could they be offering Daimler technology along to sweeten the deal? Could they be just selling Jeep? Could this whole thing just be a lot of nothing.

We need to wait and see what the deal really is as I can not see Rick W throwing away all the work he has done to save GM for some wild hair to by Chrysler unless it was to his advantage. He is not that Dumb.

What is Daimler will to do to unload Chrysler that would not burden GM or any other buyer? They might have to sweeten the deal to get any takers.

All we know for sure at this point is they are talking but on what we can not confirm yet. Heck this whole thing could get bounced like the Nissan/Renault deal if it really is happening at all.

It might be a interesting week coming up.

In the end Rick will do whats best for GM and I don't expect it will be anything that will hurt them in the long run.

Many of us thought the Daewoo deal was bad at first too.

Edited February 17, 2007 by hyperv6

[ehaase]

There's no way GM would buy Chrysler, but there's a great chance both Chrysler and Ford won't exist the way we know them within 5 years.

[Viperfan07]

There's no way GM would buy Chrysler, but there's a great chance both Chrysler and Ford won't exist the way we know them within 5 years.

I hope you're wrong about that.

[VenSeattle]

See, I think that If this were to happen (not saying I want it to by any means) That it would be more like this:

Hummer/Jeep together

Chevrolet still as the mainstream total volume brand.

Dodge REPLACES Pontiac eventually. (I mean be honest, they are in the same market position as a Sporty brand and Dodge does sell more and has a better image than Pontiac)

Saturn for Import fighting.

Chrysler REPLACES Buick (Again, same sort of market position, but Chrysler has a slightly better reputation)

Cadillac still as the flagship

The only answer I don't have is for GMC. I mean, You should put Dodge and GMC together and do away with one truck line. But that doesn't seem likely to me even in my own hypothetical evaluation here.

But Lutz has said that Pontiac and Buick are damaged, and really not a lot is happening to either except for Enclave and G8. I think that it would be smart for GM to consider doing away with them IF they do buy Chrysler.

Just my two cents though.

There's the flaw in your logic. Pontiac-GMC is one GM division and their line-up matches Dodge's line-up as a whole. Sales volume is similar too.

As for the rest, regardless of sales volume, Buick is profitable on a global scale and currently has more international potential (and appeal) than the Chrysler brand.

On top of both of those points, as-is GM is expected to declare a 4Q profit. That makes the revitalization plan for B-P-G far more appealing since the Chrysler brands aren't even close to being profitable at the moment. By the time GM fast-tracked anything under the Chrysler-Group, Buick & Pontiac's revitalized line-up will be out (both should be completely redone by 2010/2011.)

[VenSeattle]

The brands could be:

Chevy, DodgePontiacGMC, ChryslerBuick, Saturn, Saab, JeepHummer, Cadillac...

Try this:

New Corporate name: GMC Group(GM+Chrysler Group)

Chevrolet

Podge (using the word Dodge for a brand name is just asking to be avoided)

Brickler (They adopt the LX exterior styling across the board)

Jumper

Cadillac

All-in-all, it's just idiotic no matter how you approach the subject.

[vonVeezelsnider]

OMG. Please, No. (Cruddy Interiors, Unreliable... The list goes on and on)

I like my GM not in Chapter 7.

[cletus8269]

exactly, there would be terrible product over lap. one company would not need the corvette and the viper, or hummer and jeep. I would go so far to say that if GM did buy all or a lot of chrysler, there will be no challenger... why would they make competition for the camaro just as it was coming out. truth is, we NEED the competition between FoMoCo, Mopar, and GM to keep things exciting... i'll turn in my driver's license before i turn to imports for my performance and driving needs.

[vonVeezelsnider]

OMG. Please, No. (Cruddy Interiors, Unreliable... The list goes on and on)

I like my GM not in Chapter 7.

[haypops]

i'll turn in my driver's license before i turn to imports for my performance and driving needs.

Personally I was considering turning to Viagra for my performance and driving needs.

[gm4life]

GM doesn't need another brand to turn around.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

GM is not finished fixing the brands it has..

[ZL-1]

That's exactly what I'm wondering. He could finally get his wish if he's willing to pay enough.

I don't know if DCX presents Chrysler and Daimler Groups individual financial statements or just the consolidated ones. If it does present individual financial statements, it might be fun to do a little valuation exercise on the Chrysler Group!

I tried to reply before, but those damn 'internal server error' messages keep happening almost every day

[Satty]

Hopefully GM is not finished dumping redundant brands. Pontiac, I'm looking at you. If the G8 doesn't catch on, Poncho should join Olds in the graveyard.

[Member55]

Long term they could save a lot of money, name me one platform type, engine, transmission.....which Chrysler could need that is not already in GMs part bin. All these "parts" are paid for or will be paid for regardless of how big GM is. There is so much duplication that could be taken out. The only question is, is GM healthy enough to handle Chrysler today.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Member55

[ehaase]

Long term they could save a lot of money, name me one platform type, engine, transmission.....which Chrysler could need that is not already in GMs part bin.

Better to let Chrysler go out of business. Many Dodge Ram buyers would move over to Silverados, and LX buyers would be natural customers for the upcoming Zetas. Jeep and maybe minivans are the only appealing thing for GM. The few fans of Chrysler's small cars can buy Mitsubishis or Hyundai/Kias.

[Member55]

Better to let Chrysler go out of business. Many Dodge Ram buyers would move over to Silverados, and LX buyers would be natural customers for the upcoming Zetas. Jeep and maybe minivans are the only appealing thing for GM. The few fans of Chrysler's small cars can buy Mitsubishis or Hyundai/Kias.

Chrysler is not going out of business, somebody will buy them.

[ehaase]

Chrysler is not going out of business, somebody will buy them.

Perhaps Nissan-Renault. Ghosn is the only one semi-successful at merging automakers in recent years. But acquiring Chrysler might be his Waterloo.

[Member55]

Perhaps Nissan-Renault. Ghosn is the only one semi-successful at merging automakers in recent years. But acquiring Chrysler might be his Waterloo.

Nissan-Renault, GM and Ford would be a much better fit for Chrysler than MB ever was. I was always skeptical about DCX, they are so limited when it comes to sharing platforms, engines......

[evok]

Better to let Chrysler go out of business. Many Dodge Ram buyers would move over to Silverados, and LX buyers would be natural customers for the upcoming Zetas. Jeep and maybe minivans are the only appealing thing for GM. The few fans of Chrysler's small cars can buy Mitsubishis or Hyundai/Kias.

SimonDavid

2.0 Liter Supercharged ECOTEC

Join Date: Jan 2003

Posts: 179 Re: Will GM really buy Chrysler?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got a better idea - simply allow Chrysler to go broke

Given the amount of consolidation and rationalisation of factories, products and the dealer body that would bre required if GM took over, I think the appropriate word is not "takeover " but "controlled liquidation".

So why not just let the thing die. Thats whats supposed to happen in the free market in a contracting industry - the marginal player dies. You know it might just save Ford and give the Big 3 the ultimate whip hand in UAW negotiations. So sorry Mopar time to take one for the team.

and If GM really wants the minivans it can buy those assets unencumbered from the bankruptcy court just like the Chinese bought the MG-Rover designs.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthr...ed=1#post944826

I agree 100% and that would probably be the best thing that can happen to the US auto manufacturers. F and GM would be a natural fit to pick up those buyers and would take a lot of pressure off of them as far as NA plant capacity. MB could keep Jeep and relaunch it much like BMW did with MINI.

Edited February 18, 2007 by evok

[Camino LS6]

Seems to me that Chrysler won't go out of business on its own - someone will have to buy it and put it out of business. Just who would do that becomes a critical concern, as does ownwership without liquidation should the "wrong parties" gain possession.

If GM determines that it is in their best interest to control Chrysler's fate, Mopar may well become a memory.

Jeep will be someone's prize, but Chrysler/Dodge will end up being "parted-out".

Ford stands to gain by doing nothing

Very interesting.

[haypops]

Last month's sales were 79k for Dodge, 41k for Chrysler, and just 35k for Jeep. These Jeep sales include 5K for the Commander which has been axed. I wonder if we aren't overstating the significance of the Jeep brand.

I wonder if all these rumors of impeding sales of Chrysler is just a bargaining strategy for future negotiations with the UAW.

[evok]

Last month's sales were 79k for Dodge, 41k for Chrysler, and just 35k for Jeep. These Jeep sales include 5K for the Commander which has been axed. I wonder if we aren't overstating the significance of the Jeep brand.

I wonder if all these rumors of impeding sales of Chrysler is just a bargaining strategy for future negotiations with the UAW.

Chrysler Group lacks a global distribution. And Mercedes Group lacked/s vision when it came to working with CG.

In a simple world IF Daimler divests themselves some how of Auburn Hills but keeps Jeep, MG could than sell Jeeps at their global dealers. Of course they could add product and reposition the brand back to its roots while upgrading the product to be Land Rover like. It is possible if they decide crossovers are necessary Jeeps could be based upon MB rwd platforms instead of Calibres. Plus the Jeep brand image would be better associated with MB and the rub off perception will help. At the same time MB could control their SUV proliferation and reduce the brand dilution. I find it very interesting that Daimler announced during the restructuring conference call there will be platform sharing between Jeep and MB but not between the other CG brands.

[Regalguy01]

I would love to see Chrysler under American ownership again, I just don't think the owner should be GM.

[Z-06]

Diamler and Kirky boy screwed Chrysler big time.

Chyrsler was better off before the "merger".

The only good thing which came was the LX platform which was essentially the old E class revitalized. Everything else has been a failure.

The interiors are shabby. The new vehicles like the Jeep Compass and Chrysler Aspen were total lack of imaginations. I mean come on guys, don't build a vehicle for the sake of "expanding the line up".

They discontinued the sedan called Neon and built the caliber with no sedan potential? They should know better, that no matter what they want to bring as a new type of vehicle body in to US sedan should always be a forebearer. Is it not why Jetta is here in the US? Mazda was smart to bring the 3 in Hatchback AND sedan version.

It felt like everything Diamler did was screwing up Chrysler. They jumped into the foray of employee discounts in 05 and in 06 when they did it again no one cared a squat.

I wish Chrysler can stand on its feet again.

Let it be a smaller company. Chrysler should attack the foreign brands. Remove the Vans from it. Make all of the vehicles rear or all wheel drives.

Dodge should be in competition with Chevy, Toy, and Ford. A full line scale.

And let Jeep be the Jeep. Take those lady-boy crossovers off. Bring off road prowess with some good diesels, stickshifts like the Jeeps of the yore.

Honestly Chrysler should bring the MC-412 and shove it in Diamler's a$$.

Show the Germans like the Vette that their so called sports cars and super cars are overweight, overpriced POS.

[NOS2006]

Hey guys, I'm working on a list of every Chrysler and GM vehicle sold in the US. I'm including multiple trims, all MSRPs, and engines (with HP and MPG where available). I'm getting all my information from a single source at Yahoo! Autos, so it will be a semi-accurate collection of all the vehicles. When I'm done doing this, I'm going to take all the cars and engines, and give you guys a list of what I feel is best for a hypothetical GM-Chrysler merger. After thinking about this all morning, I feel that a merger between the two might be beneficial to both parties, though more for Chrysler than GM. I already know this will be controversial, so this is a heads up.

If you guys would like the original lists, I'll go ahead and post them in the Lounge for you. I won't be done with my updated line-up for a little while though, so just let me know...

Damn, can you tell how bored I am?

Edited February 19, 2007 by NOS2006

[ZL-1]

A wild idea: how about if a Private Equity firm buys the Chrysler Group? Do you guys think we'd see a replay of the Rover story?

edited for grammar

Edited February 19, 2007 by ZL-1

[haypops]

Damn, can you tell how bored I am?

are you still bored?

[NOS2006]

are you still bored?

Nope, I'm out of work. :AH-HA_wink:

[Member55]

I agree 100% and that would probably be the best thing that can happen to the US auto manufacturers. F and GM would be a natural fit to pick up those buyers and would take a lot of pressure off of them as far as NA plant capacity. MB could keep Jeep and relaunch it much like BMW did with MINI.

I see your point but how would somebody go about shutting down Chrysler, or most of it?

[maxximus1]

ahhh yes, pontiacs with hemi engines. sweet.

[turbo200]

how would GM put chrysler out of business, if the hypothetical happened and they bought Chrysler? How long would this take?

[Camino LS6]

how would GM put chrysler out of business, if the hypothetical happened and they bought Chrysler? How long would this take?

A quick chopping, followed by a planned phase-out, ended by a selling-off of the remaining bones. Say 5-7 years IMHO. There might still be a Chrysler Corp. after all that, but it would be a tiny one by comparison.

[4gm]

I think GM would only buy Chrysler with the intention of selling it in the not too distant future. Because Chrysler needs and is about to undergo a restructuring, GM could get a fairly good deal. It's not as profitable as it could be and DCX wants to get rid of it.

A few years down the road after the restructuring is complete GM could sell Chrysler at a profit. That's assuming the restructuring goes well and Chrysler sales don't nosedive.

In the meantime GM could use it's bigger clout to negotiate supplier price cuts for both GM and Chrysler, probably even throwing some current Chrysler supplier work to a post-bankruptcy Delphi of which GM will most likely own a small portion.

If Chrysler Financial is part of the sale, GM would fold that into GMAC.

GM would take ownership of things it wants from Chrysler, like engines and transmissions. GM could even steal some Chrysler designs in the pipline for it's own brands.

Once all that is done, GM sells Chrysler. The new owner would pay GM a license fee for the right to use the engines and transmissions if it needs them. GM sets up joint purchasing agreements for parts with the new company and gets a guarantee of some supply work for Delphi. And depending on whether or not GM buys Chrysler Financial GM could guarantee that Chrysler continues to use GMAC for auto loans.

That's the only way any of this would make sense to me.

Edited February 20, 2007 by 4gm

[MyerShift]

Better to let Chrysler go out of business. Many Dodge Ram buyers would move over to Silverados, and LX buyers would be natural customers for the upcoming Zetas. Jeep and maybe minivans are the only appealing thing for GM. The few fans of Chrysler's small cars can buy Mitsubishis or Hyundai/Kias.

What bull$h! (to me of course).

It is not better to let Chrysler go out of business.

I mean, when GM was facing bankruptcy just last year, would you say the same?

There are identical loyalties to each individual company and a true Chrysler (Mopar) fan wouldn't really go for anything else.

I myself am tossed up between Chrysler and General Motors. I grew up principally with GM products (GMC, Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac) but my grandparents on my dad's side have always had Chrysler products since I was around, and I'm not sure why, but I preferred Chrysler's products then, and (though not as much and the list has diminished greatly) I prefer them today.

In a semi-related tale, when I was 5 and younger, I called Chrysler products "Red Rose Cars" and I still don't know, but interestingly enough, when I got into growing roses, I discovered one called Chrysler Imperial. It really fascinates me...

I mean, would you GM nuts really consider attaining a Chrysler Corporation product? There you go. We need to look at things from all sides, not the "Well, I like GM and don't care for Chrysler, so it's best to let it die completely".

What Chrysler needs is to be fully independent and American controlled.

God. Help us that care. Chrysler needs out help.