Detroit's Best-Selling Car

[evok]

I challenge anyone to point out the major, significant flaw in Flints analysis! Well maybe it is not so much a challenge but an obvious oversight by Mr. Flint. For someone that claims to follow automotive since the Truman Administrations, he has not been reading GM's PRs of late. Enjoy!

http://www.forbes.com/home/columnists/2007...FTOKEN=14966281

[Drew Dowdell]

I don't know if this is what you're alluding to, but here's what I take from it:

1. This is precisely what Nissan did with the Altima and Maxima.

2. There is no reason a "world car" can't be a big car like the current Impala. Check out the Holden Statesman for proof.

3. Camry numbers include the Solara.

[aaaantoine]

The significant flaw in Flint's analysis:

By rough estimate, almost half of those Impala sales are to fleets.

[jrockb4]

I challenge anyone to point out the major, significant flaw in Flints analysis! Well maybe it is not so much a challenge but an obvious oversight by Mr. Flint. For someone that claims to follow automotive since the Truman Administrations, he has not been reading GM's PRs of late. Enjoy!

http://www.forbes.com/home/columnists/2007...FTOKEN=14966281

As everyone has been heralding the move to RWD, I and a few others have been saying this all along. The top selling vehicles in the US are FWD (other than trucks). The 300's are and were a success, but that it quite relative. While the Impala may not out excite the masses, it continues to sell to the masses. It is a GM success story that gets no love, I do not know what percentage goes to fleets, but if GM has reduced fleet sales across the board that Impala is an even bigger success. So while Mr Flint has a number of flaws within the article, I think it is a valid point. GM has a car that can and has for years sold on par with the Japanese but they really do not show it any love.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 300's are and were a success, but that it quite relative.

Not so much anymore. The wrangler is outselling the 300 now.

[Sixty8panther]

Backseat Driver

Detroit's Best-Selling Car

Jerry Flint 02.13.07, 6:00 AM ET

A Detroit car came within a whisker of outselling Honda’s Accord last month. In fact, if you count those sales a certain way, the car did outsell the Accord, and it trails only Toyota’s Camry in the race for the best seller in America.

I am talking about the Chevrolet Impala, a big husky sedan that General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) builds in Ontario, Canada, but we still consider it a Detroit car. If nothing else, the Impala shows that the home team can compete.

Almost unnoticed, GM’s Impala has been a strong and steady performer. It has been on the “Recommended” list of Consumer Reports magazine. Impala is an old Chevy name, taken after the African antelope, as you probably guessed from the familiar emblem. Years ago, GM dropped the name in one of Detroit’s silly name-killing sprees, and then revived it on a 2000 model. Note that now Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) is bringing back the Taurus name.

Despite all its success, the Impala seem less than beloved by GM executives. This car does not fit their ideas of what makes for a winner today.

Yeah... sound familiar?

- Deville

- Seville

- Eldorado

- Grand Prix

- Bonneville

- Grand Am

- Regal

- Park Ave

...need I go on?

[Satty]

3. Camry numbers include the Solara.

When is the last time you saw a Solara? They're not hot sellers (I'm biased, sure, but I still prefer the first gen and understand why the second gen wouldn't sell as well) and they cant add more than a few thousand sales anyways. Plus, its the Camry Solara, under the sheetmetal they're the same, Toyota just used the name Solara instead of calling it the Camry Coupe like Honda does with the Accord and Pontiac does with the G6 coupe and vert. What I dont agree with Toyota doing is lumping the Corolla and Matrix sales together. That just flat-out doesn't make sense.

[Drew Dowdell]

When is the last time you saw a Solara? They're not hot sellers (I'm biased, sure, but I still prefer the first gen and understand why the second gen wouldn't sell as well) and they cant add more than a few thousand sales anyways. Plus, its the Camry Solara, under the sheetmetal they're the same, Toyota just used the name Solara instead of calling it the Camry Coupe like Honda does with the Accord and Pontiac does with the G6 coupe and vert. What I dont agree with Toyota doing is lumping the Corolla and Matrix sales together. That just flat-out doesn't make sense.

The last time I saw a Solara was when I nearly hit one with the Avalanche on Sunday because the dumb, facelifted, blond behind the wheel was too busy flapping her gums on a cell phone to notice the huge green Chevy Avalanche coming towards her in the opposite lane she suddenly cut across.

My point is that if the Solara <and it's marketed as Solara, not Camry Solara> is included in the Camry numbers then Monte Carlo should be included in the Impala numbers also. I would venture to guess that the differences between Solara and Camry are equal to the differences between Monte Carlo and Impala.

Can someone answer this? Which number is larger? Impala + Monte Carlo + LaCrosse + Grand Prix or Camry + Solara + ES?

[aaaantoine]

I believe comparing all platform mates will stack the deck in Toyota's favor. After all, aren't the Highlander, RX, and Sienna also on the same platform as the Camry?

[Satty]

Also depends on if you count all sales or retail sales. GM sells a ton of Impalas, Montes and LaCrosses, but a great deal of those go to fleets. Only the Camry is fleeted off the Toyota platform and its not more than 15% of Camry sales, if even that high. I'll go look up the fleet numbers in a few.

[Drew Dowdell]

I believe comparing all platform mates will stack the deck in Toyota's favor. After all, aren't the Highlander, RX, and Sienna also on the same platform as the Camry?

Then you start to move into the realm of absurdity. The U-body minivans and Rendezvous and Aztec were all technically based on the W-body if you want to take it to that extreme. Honda/Acura would only have 4 platforms for it's entire lineup. s2000, Civic, Accord, Odyssey. Nissan/Infinity would only have 3 not counting BOF trucks.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Drew Dowdell]

Also depends on if you count all sales or retail sales. GM sells a ton of Impalas, Montes and LaCrosses, but a great deal of those go to fleets. Only the Camry is fleeted off the Toyota platform and its not more than 15% of Camry sales, if even that high. I'll go look up the fleet numbers in a few.

Fleet != bad.

Sales to daily rental sales fleets = bad

Sales to police, EMS, and cooperate fleets = good

[Satty]

Best I can get right now is 2006 MY mid-year registrations.

Lacrosse-38,878 (10,214 fleet)

Impala-120,185 (65,917)

Monte---19,644 (13,447)

GP------52,434 (38,820)

Total: 231,141 (128,398)

Camry-167,529 (21,518)

Solara---9,092 (1,534)

ES------25,672 (382)

Total:202,293 (23,434)

Edited February 13, 2007 by Satty

[Drew Dowdell]

Best I can get right now is 2006 MY mid-year registrations.

Lacrosse-38,878 (10,214 fleet)

Impala-120,185 (65,917)

Monte---19,644 (13,447)

Total: 178,707 (89,578)

Camry-167,529 (21,518)

Solara---9,092 (1,534)

ES------25,672 (382)

Total:202,293 (23,434)

So, if you add in the GP, where would it put GM?

[Satty]

Updated to include GP.

[Drew Dowdell]

Best I can get right now is 2006 MY mid-year registrations.

Lacrosse-38,878 (10,214 fleet)

Impala-120,185 (65,917)

Monte---19,644 (13,447)

GP------52,434 (38,820)

Total: 231,141 (128,398)

Camry-167,529 (21,518)

Solara---9,092 (1,534)

ES------25,672 (382)

Total:202,293 (23,434)

Interesting... interesting....

So, the Camry, Camry Coupe, Camry SE, and Camry ES are outsold by the Impala, Impala Coupe, Impala SE, and Impala ES......

[Satty]

109,105 of the W-body sales were to rental fleets compared to 20,253 of the Camry sales.

I wish we could get 2006 CY results

[Drew Dowdell]

109,105 of the W-body sales were to rental fleets compared to 20,253 of the Camry sales.

I wish we could get 2006 CY results

I don't see Toyota advertising that they sold 178,859 Camries.

[Satty]

Nobody is advertising those numbers, they're mid-year registrations of 2006 model year vehicles. The fleet numbers are great for volume but bad for profit, I doubt Avis (or whoever) paid sticker for those 109k cars, just like how Budget (or whoever) didn't pay sticker for those 20k Camrys.

[Drew Dowdell]

Nobody is advertising those numbers, they're mid-year registrations of 2006 model year vehicles. The fleet numbers are great for volume but bad for profit, I doubt Avis (or whoever) paid sticker for those 109k cars, just like how Budget (or whoever) didn't pay sticker for those 20k Camrys.

Retail buyers don't even pay sticker on Camrys.

Who said all 109k W-bodies went to Avis? City of Pittsburgh uses Impalas for it's police force. I'm sure we're not the only one. Generally, Police forces don't get much more of a discount than retail buyers do.

[Satty]

I got my numbers here.

The headings go Commercial-Government-Rental-Total Fleet-Retail-Total-% Fleet vs. Total

Thats how I got the numbers that went to Avis et al.

[evok]

The significant flaw in Flint's analysis:

By rough estimate, almost half of those Impala sales are to fleets.

Bingo - We have a winner.

[evok]

The 300's are and were a success, but that it quite relative.

Fleet queen along with the rest of the LX programs. Close to 40%.

[evok]

Retail buyers don't even pay sticker on Camrys.

Who said all 109k W-bodies went to Avis? City of Pittsburgh uses Impalas for it's police force. I'm sure we're not the only one. Generally, Police forces don't get much more of a discount than retail buyers do.

GM gives the cars away because there is no retail demand for them.

Here is the Big 3 cycle:

Design Vehicle = no body wants vehicle = give away incentive = Fleet = loose money = plants running = UAW employed = close plants = restructure = design new vehicle = no body wants vehicle = give away incentive = Fleet = loose money = plants running = UAW employed = close plants = restructure = design new vehicle = no body wants vehicle = give away incentive = Fleet = loose money = plants running = UAW employed = etc

This trend has been going on for 25 years. Why do you think the auto companies bought the Rental Companies in the 80s or 90s?

For them it was like the Mob laundering money.

Edited February 13, 2007 by evok

[Mr.Krinkle]

Thats a viscious cycle.

http://www.kiplinger.com/apnews/XmlStoryRe...?storyid=306419

and I thought they were on to something with the g6.