Volt will likely never be as cost effective as today's hybrids.

[Mr.Krinkle]

as a concept the volt is fantastic its just that it was needed yesterday.

I saw the video of it driving and it may not be as far off but it still at this time is the equivalent to kiting a check.

the prius has done all the damage it needed to do. Rightly or wrongly. Most people will acknowledge this.

I dont think anyone is singling out GM for this transgression but as a gm fan site with the toughest critics and biggest fans who gives a hairy rats ass if honda or anyone else dropped the hybrid ball. Excusing them or blaming them will not exonerate GM and make up for their lack of a halo wearing highmileage green mobile.

Completing the circle, GM's trying to go green while Toyota's making macho. GM has given the go-ahead to the 150-miles-per-gallon Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid that lit up the Detroit Auto Show this year. It's proceeding despite the fact that the batteries needed to run the Volt haven't really been invented, or at least perfected, yet. But GM R&D chief Larry Burns is confident the batteries will be ready in time for the Volt to hit the road in about four years. Burns now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: "If we could turn back the hands of time," says Burns, "we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier." Just like that old prototype, the Volt won't generate immediate profits. But times have changed. "We're the underdog now," explains GM VP Mark LaNeve. "So you're more willing to take risks."

As a step in the right direction Gm is admitting their own follies and taking their lumps. Maybe not proactive but not going forward with the tech when they realistcly could and should have, has to be one of the toughest pills for them to swallow.

[thegriffon]

Electric motors have constant torque independent of RPM.

As I rmember the torque curves from my engineering studies, peak torque is at 0 rpm, from which it drops off slightly until it reaches peak power, after which it drops of quite rapidly.

[Satty]

Electrics peak torque occurs at 0rpm, after that I'm not sure what the curve looks like. We should go dyno a bunch of forklifts.

[AAS]

As I rmember the torque curves from my engineering studies, peak torque is at 0 rpm, from which it drops off slightly until it reaches peak power, after which it drops of quite rapidly.

Yeah... that's what I found here, but I wanted to find some more general results before posting anything definitive.

I wish I had my undergrad engineering books with me... I could have sworn I had one with info about motor efficiency vs. rpm's.

[Sixty8panther]

Screw the Volt. I don't like its styling or concept much.

Hydrogen will be the soution, untill then if you feel the

need to save gas buy a 5-sp Cobalt.

[AAS]

The most consistent result I am finding is this: The efficiency of electric motors increases with higher loads (as a percentage of the total allowable load).

I am EXTRAPOLATING from this, to say the following: Loads on the motor(s) driving a vehicle are highest when accelerating from a stop (or low speeds), and not as high once the vehicle has momentum (edit: added text) and is coasting. Hence, efficiency is better at low speeds as opposed to higher ones (edit: added text) when the vehicle is at a constant speed or operating under "low" acceleration.

Here's a figure that might be helpful [ Garcia, A.G.P., et al., Energy-efficiency standards for electric motors in Brazilian industry. Energy Policy (2007), doi:10.1016/

j.enpol.2006.11.024]: edit: added pic

Edited March 11, 2007 by AAS

[Camino LS6]

I suspect that there will be quite a bit for us all to learn about electric propulsion as the Volt advances toward production. Should be interesting.

[VenSeattle]

3) I have been very consistent and will give Wagoner until January 2008 and pass judgement at that time if the corporate entity has turned around and is sustainable.

4) Honda has sucessfully developed and launched the Insight, Civic and Accord hybrids. The Insight had been on the market since 1999.

5) Before you put your foot in your mouth again I have posted extensively on the new Tundra a while back. Please read those posts.

And finally would you buy a Chines made Buick?

3) Your comments appear to be already damning to GM instead of being undetermined.

4) I don't see how you consider a 2-seater Insight to be a direct competitor to a 4-door sedan with a trunk/hatch. The Accord and Civic hybrids can hardly be considered successful. While the Prius alone hit record sales in Feb with 12,227, the Civic & Accord Hybrids sold a paltry 2,236 combined. While the Honda Hybrids aren't brand-spanking new models, neither is the Prius. The current Prius debuted for 2004.

5) I don't see it that way. You've covered this topic repeatedly as well, yet you're silent as the Tundra story continues to develop... but attacking GM full force over a concept.

Finally??? Yes... unless you can give me a reason why I shouldn't buy a Buick made in China/Asia and imported? I'm not a GM & Buick fan because of Domestic loyalty. If importing Buicks would help improve GM's profits and allow Buick to better compete in the luxury market, I'm all for it. Besides, what's my alternative - Leave Buick over that and buy a Lexus or Infiniti also manufactured in Asia? Wow, how logical. That settles it for me... (you only wish.)

[pow]

Screw the Volt. I don't like its styling or concept much.

Hydrogen will be the soution, untill then if you feel the

need to save gas buy a 5-sp Cobalt.

??? Hydrogen is just a liquid form of electricity that requires tons of energy to obtain.

Reducing energy consumption is the easiest solution, not some magical alternative fuel. And anyway, water vapor is a greenhouse gas, too.

Edited March 11, 2007 by empowah

[Mr.Krinkle]

??? Hydrogen is just a liquid form of electricity that requires tons of energy to obtain.

Reducing energy consumption is the easiest solution, not some magical alternative fuel. And anyway, water vapor is a greenhouse gas, too.

I dont need some magical alternative fuel. I just took out ma back seats. I also have a hood and left fender made from carbon fiber. she sure is sweet.

The idea of perpetual rain fall is an interesting thought.

[evok]

3) Your comments appear to be already damning to GM instead of being undetermined.

I wrote and extensive post back around december 2005. I believe it was a reply to GoBlue1999 or some one like that. Please look it up. You might learn something. I outlined many of the structural changes GM has made and I stated Wagoner/Smith deserve a ot of credit.

But to repond to the current situation here are a few of my concerns:

1) Where is the 4th Q results?

2) Where is the Annual Report for 2006?

3) What happened at ResCap?

4) GM has a hidden incentive that is never dissused that is just as bad as their other money on the hood. That incentive and its relevance to GM's retail percentage is never dissused and it is not published as far as I know in their 10k. I have to number (It is not good) but I will poses it as a question. What percentage of GMs retail sales are at GMS employee pricing?

5) Gas prices are creeping up again and GMs revenue gains earlier in the year were because of the 900s.

6) GM's new product offerings do not appear to be doing well such as the Aura.

7) The new Tundra is still a question mark and may impact 900 sales.

8 ) The Koreans keep expanding their portfolio of product and there are plenty more new segments the are entering there by fracturing the market further.

9) Chrysler has new crossovers that have done the same.

10) UAW contact expires September 2007.

4) I don't see how you consider a 2-seater Insight to be a direct competitor to a 4-door sedan with a trunk/hatch. The Accord and Civic hybrids can hardly be considered successful. While the Prius alone hit record sales in Feb with 12,227, the Civic & Accord Hybrids sold a paltry 2,236 combined. While the Honda Hybrids aren't brand-spanking new models, neither is the Prius. The current Prius debuted for 2004.

See what you actually stated in the earlier thread.

5) I don't see it that way. You've covered this topic repeatedly as well, yet you're silent as the Tundra story continues to develop... but attacking GM full force over a concept.

The concept - I like the styling and like the styling direction. That is my opinion on the vehicle. Actually that is the most I have actually said on this vehicle as far as my opinion of the concept is concerned. Hell I think it would make a great Cobalt replacemnt

It is a concept and not a production vehicle. The lithiom ion batteries are a big question mark?

To answer your Tundra question.

1) I do not feel like dealing with the biased BS from some around here.

2) Wait and see.

3) Toyota has a lot of money to throw at it.

4) Toyota has a real truck.

5) Full size PU market is going to be a tough nut to crask for them, but them have the money to throw at it.

Finally??? Yes... unless you can give me a reason why I shouldn't buy a Buick made in China/Asia and imported? I'm not a GM & Buick fan because of Domestic loyalty. If importing Buicks would help improve GM's profits and allow Buick to better compete in the luxury market, I'm all for it. Besides, what's my alternative - Leave Buick over that and buy a Lexus or Infiniti also manufactured in Asia? Wow, how logical. That settles it for me... (you only wish.)

Well there could be product coming from China and I heard a midsized car is a possibility.

BTW - Please actually read my posts especially when I put a serious one together, instead of relying on the public comments or admin discussions from FOG and Camino. You might actually see what I say.

I am very sorry that GM has some very serious problems. There are many books on the subject that are objective and not biases. Being a GM fan does not change the very serious problems they have.

[PurdueGuy]

??? Hydrogen is just a liquid form of electricity that requires tons of energy to obtain.

:rotflmao:

I assume you are making this horrible, gross, incorrect generalization by assuming that hydrogen would be produced in majority (long-term) by electrolysis? Terrible assumption... and even if that's what you're trying to express, this was a terrible way to phrase it. Hydrogen = liquid electricity? Gee, where'd all the protons & neutrons go? lol I gotsta re-read some chemistry books...

*edit*

I'm not saying that I think hydrogen will definitely be *the* solution (or even necessarily a large-scale solution among many), but to dismiss it so readily seems a bit short sighted...

Edited March 12, 2007 by PurdueGuy

[haypops]

hydrogen would be produced in majority (long-term) by electrolysis? Terrible assumption...

Which source of hydrogen are you hitching your wagon to? (no sarcasm intended).

[haypops]

1) Where is the 4th Q results?

2) Where is the Annual Report for 2006?

Any chance that this is just defaulting sub-par mortgages and that the hit won't be too bad?

What percentage of GMs retail sales are at GMS employee pricing?

I assume GM is no worse than Ford and Chrysler with regards to this. At Toyota they are so cheap with extending employee pricing it is almost non-existant. Used cars are a different story, however.

[VenSeattle]

1) To answer your Tundra question...

2) Well there could be product coming from China and I heard a midsized car is a possibility.

3) BTW - Please actually read my posts especially when I put a serious one together, instead of relying on the public comments or admin discussions from FOG and Camino. You might actually see what I say.

4) I am very sorry that GM has some very serious problems. There are many books on the subject that are objective and not biases. Being a GM fan does not change the very serious problems they have.

1) Thank you for replying about the Tundra.

2) Thank you for mentioning that it's a very good possibility GM could import a mid-size sedan from China. I assume this could be the next-gen LaCrosse since GM did debut the name in both markets. I'll wait and see.

3) My reliance on Admin discussions is to gain perspective of how members conduct themselves on this board. However, unnecessary insults are easy to distinguish from insight.

4) Put aside the GM fan part. You're also addressing GM's customer base. Constant discouragement and hopelessness directed towards GM's customers do not improve GM's problems either. You're there to immediately diminish and (sometimes) destroy any positive PR GM might achieve with owners here on C&G. Phrasing, like your quoted post, comes across far less biased since it's fact based. Perhaps figuring out a way to separate your personal opinion and preference from your job might allow you to state it without such criticisms from certain members here. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it's easily mistaken as a fact in itself. People aren't so prone to condemn individual opinions as they are facts left to the matter of interpretation.... you just make it difficult to tell them apart sometimes.

[Sixty8panther]

Technology like the SR71 was conceived in the late 1950s and you think

that they're not working on things greater and more advanced than we

can even imagine... Hydrogen WILL be the solution, as far as H20 vapor

being a "greenhouse gas" I'm 99.9999% sure even Al Gore owuld think

it's a lesser of the two evils.

[balthazar]

>>"Honda has sucessfully developed and launched the Insight, Civic and Accord hybrids. The Insight had been on the market since 1999."<<

I was told on these boards that the insight is no longer in production.

[PurdueGuy]

Which source of hydrogen are you hitching your wagon to? (no sarcasm intended).

Diversity is a wonderful thing.

[pow]

Diversity is a wonderful thing.

Example, please? Yeah, you could obtain it from natural gas, but where does that come from?

[VenSeattle]

1) I understand completely, the term "import humping" is so ignorant.

2)Facts are facts. And I generally just post the facts or when I actually do opion on something it is fact based.

3)There is a big difference between an intelligent discussion and this crap that is encouraged by the CG moderators.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...=15862&st=0

1) There's a difference between generalizations and specifically insulting a member. The comment “import humping” has the same implication as “drinking the GM kool-aid.” They both illustrate a group of people not using logic and common sense to justify their loyalties. One is thinking with their dick, the other with their stomach (or with what they put in it.) Neither of them are listening to reason.

2) Facts are to be interpreted. How they should apply varies from one extreme to another, regardless if you're an analyst or arm chair CEO. I can find an article to defend almost every argument... all written or sourced by industry analysts, Somehow, the experts still contradict each other as much as the common folk. Separating your opinion out from the facts would allow most discussions to continue (as they should.) It's the difference between contributing to the conversation and coming across definitive and arrogant.

3) F.O.G. is no longer a Moderator on C&G. His opinions do not necessarily reflect those of C&G and the moderating/admin team. I thought you were aware of this.

Anyway... the topic seems to be back on track, we can continue this offline or you can reply... but I'm done here.

[Flybrian]

Example, please? Yeah, you could obtain it from natural gas, but where does that come from?

Plasma gasification

The Prophet of Garbage - Popular Science

Called plasma gasification, it works a little like the big bang, only backward (you get nothing from something). Inside a sealed vessel made of stainless steel and filled with a stable gas—either pure nitrogen or, as in this case, ordinary air—a 650-volt current passing between two electrodes rips electrons from the air, converting the gas into plasma. Current flows continuously through this newly formed plasma, creating a field of extremely intense energy very much like lightning. The radiant energy of the plasma arc is so powerful, it disintegrates trash into its constituent elements by tearing apart molecular bonds. The system is capable of breaking down pretty much anything except nuclear waste, the isotopes of which are indestructible. The only by-products are an obsidian-like glass used as a raw material for numerous applications, including bathroom tiles and high-strength asphalt, and a synthesis gas, or “syngas”—a mixture of primarily hydrogen and carbon monoxide that can be converted into a variety of marketable fuels, including ethanol, natural gas and hydrogen.

[VenSeattle]

I recently saw part of a Discovery Channel show covering HyNor. Has this been discussed here on C&G yet?

http://www.hynor.no/english

[Camino LS6]

Now THAT is fascinating!

I love the potential benefits implied in that brief description of the process.

[PurdueGuy]

Example, please? Yeah, you could obtain it from natural gas, but where does that come from?

superheating water in a nuclear power plant. You can easily and efficiently heat the water hot enough to split the water molecules, and not use electrolysis.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Questions about lithium-ion battery technology make GM wary of giving a timetable for building an auto that gets its primary charge from a home outlet, Beth Lowery, head of GM's battery division, said at a briefing in suburban Detroit today.

Lowery said GM held the briefing because of the interest the Volt generated has generated since its debut at the Detroit auto show in January. The company intends to hold regular briefings to report progress and to temper expectations.

``People are so excited about the Volt they want it today,'' she said. ``We need to balance the story about what is possible with what needs to be done.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=con...id=aRHpotGtOARU

Joe Lograsso, the engineering manager of the hybrid-battery group for GM, said price may be the lowest hurdle.

``We believe that while they are not ready for prime time, it is not a revolutionary advance, but an evolutionary advance,''

[haypops]

superheating water in a nuclear power plant. You can easily and efficiently heat the water hot enough to split the water molecules, and not use electrolysis.

I guess that means we will be getting our hydrogen from Iran since they seem to be theonly country building nuclear power plants.

[haypops]

I recently saw part of a Discovery Channel show covering HyNor. Has this been discussed here on C&G yet?

http://www.hynor.no/english

In particular Norway has a long industrial history connected to production of hydrogen through electrolysis based on hydro power

Hydroelectric power is great! I assume we are maxed out, however.

These are trying times. I think concerns continually shift between photochemical smog, greenhouse gases, depletion of petroleum reserves, and Middle East/international insecurities. These differing concerns may not have identical answers save for conservation.

[Solar Max]

Hydroelectric power is great! I assume we are maxed out, however.

Don't think so. At least we in Canada sure aren't. The problem is that it's so politically incorrect to even suggest building Hydro, (especially after the Glen Canyon debates) that nobody has the guts to just build one. A shame, because it's completely renewable, and carbon free.