Modern Culture

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

-- This thread will not tolerate flaming of any kind, it is intended to be a "civilized argument" encouraging critical thinking that lends itself to further evolving and refining our world. It focuses mainly on American Culture (the fastest growing culture in history) however foreign cultural views are more than welcome, as everything lends insight.

To kick it off...

Modern American Culture has evolved so rapidly that America is losing its cohesiveness, and is slowly destroying the traditional place of the family.

What is your opinion on this relatively new trend (post WW2)? Is this good or bad? what are its consequences? what does it provide to our society? Remember nothing is bad unless society deems it so http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif Edited September 26, 2005 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Flybrian]

The 'family' is changing with the times. I am a child of a non-nuclear family. My parents were divorced when I was 6 or so and I have lived with and was raised by my father (unusual) ever since. I am also mixed in race with my father being white with European heritage and my mother being Taiwanese with Chinese Han heritage. According to many adherers of 'ideal family values', I should be despondant, distraught, a constant trouble maker lashing out at society. I wouldn't join a gang, but rather cause rukus on my own, stemming mainly from my identity crisis over my race since I don't know who I am. I should've failed in school and lost my girlfriend because I verbally or sexually abused her because I lack a balancing mother figure in my life. Yet, I'm not. I'm fine. I graduated with honors in high school. I'm a junior in college purusuing a Bachelors in Aeronautical Sciences. I have a pilot's license and a $31,000/yr job as an assistant superintendant for a successful contracting firm. I have a wonderful relationship with my father, my friends, and my lovely girlfriend (almost 1 1/2 years now). And I'm an Administrator on C&G, a true sign of success! I underwent no counseling, no divorce therepy, no psychiatric treatments when I was younger. I simply had a father who cared and loved me and helped me pursue my goals and a good network of peers and role models. I say all that because I'm frankly sick of reading/seeing/hearing all this specious B.S. reasoning about the breakdown of 'traditional' family values and how if you don't have the perfect nuclear family, your family is dysfunctional and you're also dysfunctional. I've actually been told that by school counselors earlier in my life. What a joke! My point in all that rambling is that modern America is changing. Few people live in a two-story townhome with a mother, a father, a sibling, a dog, a white picket fence, and a Camry (okay, maybe the Camry). The odds are the norm today - blended families, single-parent families, multiethnic families, and yes even *gasp* gay families. But you know what I think? Kids growing up in what is described by many as an 'inept, breakdown' society can be just as fucked up or successful as they were in any other time. Perhaps even more successful because they grow up in such a varied environment. People all too often judge a family asthetically. It ignores the basic fact that a family is not what something is supposed to appear to be; its what it is. And as long as its caring, nuturing, understanding, and supportive, its a perfectly fine family to me.

[NOS2006]

Well, it's hard to say, really. I could say stuff about my generation and go on for days. But I can't compare it to the 50s, 60s, 70s, or even 80s because most of what I've heard about those times are stereotypes. All I'm certain of is that each generation per decade since the 50s seems to have taken the previous decade's characteristics and intensified them. For example.. 50s was Elvis.. then came the whole harder-edged genre of rock in the 60s.. followed by smoking weed on stage at these concerts in the 70s.. with the 80s came a more sex-induced scene.. with the 90s bringing much more cussing and violence... it's all being intensified. Oh, and one more thing.. Kids are having sex younger and younger these days. And it's a terrible thing.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Relating to Flybrian... Even with the statistics against you, you managed to come out a good productive member of society huh? Yep, theres always the "exception" to the rule. And Flybrian's story just prooves that a single father/mother can come up with ways to ensure a childs good upbringing, instead of giving up. And, i believe, should be an inspiration of single parents everywhere. In relation to NOS... never thought of it that way, although im primarly getting at splitting of family from an Extended family -> Nuclear family -> both parents filling economic rolls and children in daycare families.

[Cory Wolfe]

Hmm... Interesting topic. Not sure exactly what I can contribute. Well... I have an idea that regular "traditional" families have more of a chance to raise dysfunctional children than irregular ones. Anyways, other than California-esque type crap... Modern Culture evolving at the rate it is and what it is... is good, IMO. Edited September 26, 2005 by blackviper8891

[Drew Dowdell]

This thread is just not going to end well. Every one is different. Every family is different. There is no such thing as the "traditional family". The "traditional family" is offen described as the Clevers in T.V. land and is about as realistic.

[Croc]

People aren't having sex any younger than they always have been. Even in the 1950s if you'd do a little research people would have sex at the same "young" ages they do today. Why wasn't there such an outcry? Because people married younger.

Teh Ricer Civic: If FlyBrian is the exception to the rule, then I know a whole hell of a lot of exceptions. In fact, I don't know one person who really fits the "rule."

NOS: I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of each decade.

The 1960s was a complete counterculture to the uptight and "perfect" 1950s. Hippies, marijuana, "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" really was the defining aspect of this decade.

The 1970s was affected by Vietnam intensely, and a lot of melancholy. In a way it was somewhat of a reaction to the 1960s, with The Brady Bunch being the Leave It To Beaver of its day, but the 1970s still had a lot of sexual liberation what with disco and much of the soul music of that decade. Race relations were starting to improve with The Jeffersons being one of the first television shows to feature an all-black regular cast devoid of many of the typical stereotypes. Feminism was also a dominant theme, with Roe v. Wade.

The 1980s featured a conservative backlash, as women's rights were setback immensely. The pro-family stances of the 1980s were a thin veil of anti-feminism. AIDS was a huge epidemic, and the overall climate was that a wholesome, sex-free lifestyle was best. At the same time, there was a strong subculture that resisted this. Cocaine became epidemic in Los Angeles and other areas. Twisted Sister, among other groups, resisted censorship. The Parental Advisory stickers were born during this decade as a result of Tipper Gore being an utter prude. Commercialization, greed, and materialism were dominant themes as well. Even music began to be commercialized. Look no further than Milli Vanilli, the epitome of superficiality. "Corporate Rock" was born in the latter part of the decade. Rap and Hip Hop were born during this time, and race relations were strained.

The 1990s had many themes as well, though I don't know if we have enough critical distance to really analyze them accurately. The early-mid part of the decade was somewhat of a throwback to the 1970s with the music being more melancholy, a reaction to the over-hyped and over-produced 80s scene. Picture Kurt Cobain in his red Seattle flannel and his guitar. Lillith Fair took off. People started becoming more health concious. With continued economic prosperity, self-help and gurus became popular. Look no further than Martha Stewart. "Lifestyles" became the new fad. Whether or not you could cook, everyone had to have a big designer kitchen with sub-zero refridgerators and Viking ranges. People started embracing "gourmet." Look at the growth of Panera; it's just a sandwich, right? Style became very important as well. Look at the growth of Target, offering ordinary household items in different colors or quirky designs to set themselves apart. Individualism: look at the appeal of Volkswagen or Mitsubishi during the latter part of the decade.

One thing to note: every time in American history that "family values" has been pushed, it has occurred immediately after a major economic recession, whether it be following the Great Depression in the 1930s (Hollywood censorship was very strict during this time), WWII and the start of the Cold War in the 1950s, the late 1970s and early 1980s, or in 2001 with the withering economy and 9/11. People tend to want to cling to what is "familiar" and "safe" and "utopian" (stereotypical 1950s) during times of crisis.

This decade? Who knows...we are still living it. Get back with me no sooner than 7 years.

[Croc]

Okay... Anyways, other than California-esque type crap... Modern Culture evolving at the rate it is and what it is... is good, IMO.

[post="19973"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What's that mean?

And could someone please explain to me why there seems to be so much hatred directed toward the fine state of sunny California? I heard this even back in Indiana, and I never understood it then. Since when did California carry such a negative connotation. And what Californian culture is negative, NorCal, SoCal, or both? Please explain I really don't get it. :blink:

[daves87rs]

What's that mean?

And could someone please explain to me why there seems to be so much hatred directed toward the fine state of sunny California?  I heard this even back in Indiana, and I never understood it then.  Since when did California carry such a negative connotation.  And what Californian culture is negative, NorCal, SoCal, or both?  Please explain I really don't get it. :blink:

[post="19979"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Croc-its ok- It's a current running gag Vipe has going againist Cali...
he just throws it in there whenever he can... :unsure: :lol:

[daves87rs]

This thread is just not going to end well.

Every one is different.
Every family is different.
There is no such thing as the "traditional family".
The "traditional family" is offen described as the Clevers in T.V. land and is about as realistic.

[post="19975"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As long as there is respect..


The only "traditional" family there needs to be is a happy one

[Flybrian]

Sorry, Croc, Panera is just a sandwich. An overpriced one at that.

[CARBIZ]

What exactly is the "ideal" family? Did it ever exist? I had a friend whose mother actually wore a skirt, pearls (they were real!) and heels around the house. She was a licensed pharmacist; he was an engineer at Kodak. They had the perfect house, the perfect life. They raised their kids with love and affection. She stayed home. They went to the country club. They were both active in Church. The spawn? Well, the second youngest used to be my boyfriend. His oldest sister married a Minister and then they ended up divorced (their eldest son we ran into in a gay bar not too long ago) One of the kids did so many drugs growing up that he is on medical welfare. Well, I could go on... I don't want to sound cynical, but the family unit is going to have to change and evolve with the times. If you look what has happened in the past 35 years in the West, birth rates are falling, divorce rates are up. It isn't a pretty picture. Over all, I think it is a good thing. I think in the past too much of it was hushed up. There were too many unhappy marriages that just went unnoticed. Too many miserable people stayed married "for the children," or to keep up appearances. I think a new state of equlibrium will be established one day. As more women climb the ladder in more professions and as all types of families become not just "aceptable" but even normal, things will work out. We have seen so many changes in the past 50 years. Give it more time.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Teh Ricer Civic: If FlyBrian is the exception to the rule, then I know a whole hell of a lot of exceptions.  In fact, I don't know one person who really fits the "rule."

[post="19978"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"rule" = most common statistic.

remember, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

but joking aside, thats what the data shows, depending on socio-economic class etc everything is different, its really amazing to see that no matter how much things change, they more they stay the same (in some regards).

i know many "exceptions" too.

and "traditional" refers to the most common type of family prior to WWII (for the majority of human history actually) - that is the FAMILY (extended family) is the primary group, they do everything together in an extended family (such as working the farm), this structure started wavering as people moved to the cities... but it really fell apart after WW2, creating the "nuclear" family.

i am not saying this is bad its just interesting to see how things change.

It should also be noted that now-days it usually takes 2 parents working to afford and maintain a house than 1 parent could have been able to afford in the 60s when women were only starting to become a vitally needed component of the workforce.

once again, is this bad? not at all, if anything it just shows how little the dollar goes these days, and how unequal things still are between the sexes- females still tend to do all the housework, which... despite all the fancy "time saving" equipment still takes roughly 40 hours a week to do (the same amount of time as in the 60s!), however, statistics also reveal that in upper-middle class families its becomes more common for a husband and wife to split up household duties, and become more equal.

The best part about this (primarly sociology) is that there is always people who go against the odds to become what most people view as a productive member of society. it is THESE people that will hopefully one day lead our nation to an era where we arent so restricted by our culture (In fact, out of tolerances for "normal" behaviour, America is one of the most restrictive!!) and more important the stiffling of critical thinkers.

What exactly is the "ideal" family? Did it ever exist?
probably never exisited, thats why culture evolves to meet current demands, but many think that as far as the family goes, it hasnt been good. the point of this thread is just to see what everyone thinks about our current state of culture.

the beauty of sociology is that it is not concerned with peoples emotions about it, but rather the Pros and Cons of our ways. it has a way of making people see things in a wholly different light, it is based heavily in scientific method and data.- truely a fascinating field. Edited September 26, 2005 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[razoredge]

I dont know Fly - theres been alot of problems with you :) My story is probably the opposite. Whole family, mom died when I was 12, didnt help but I never felt it was my problem, maybe a few but nothing serious. Dad was an American success story. An all American boy, did Korea, did college, became coach, phys ed teacher, did more college got masters became superintendant of our small town school. We spent much of summer at camp on a lake, small boat, so I water skied, snow skied, went to Florida every other summer to Dads sisters and parents area for two weeks . Lived in same town with my mothers parents and we were all very close. Spent at least a week a year at my mothers brothers hobby farm he was an engineer. Many cousins, they had horses and chores so I got a little of that. I was kind of a surbanite, for that village anyhow. We had like one street that was similar to the suburbs and we lived on it. Other relitves from Ohio came out every summer so there really was alot of Brady Bunch kind of stuff going on. Perhaps this is my problem :P I became the black sheep very young, I hated all the little ninny, ninny games my cousins would play, every thing was always a game, a mind game, lots of picking and teasing, they were all snobby, judgeing of others, always saying stuff I felt was wrong to say about people. I hated school with a passion, none of it made since to me, I couldnt see how it applied to life, it was just a bunch of hum drum boring stuff that didnt stimulate me. I was very athletic as far a wrestling, skiing and anything physical but was poor at team sports becasue I couldnt stand the games. I was not lazy, I was very active just hated the books. I barely graduated only made it becasue I did summer school two summers and concentrated very hard the last month of school and pulled it off by passing Regents, my final averages were all 65's. I passed the few remaining Regents so I was out :P I always loved the land, forest, nature, cars, girls, rock and roll so I got a job and decided to make a go of life by brakeing butt, learning a multitude of skills and eventually ran my own logging business for 20 years. I didnt see the light however and now big business/big operations, over cutting and loss of the American paper industry has put me and my family in steady reverse for 6 years now. I almost pulled it off but things changed and the rug was pulled. We were lookin sweet 7 years ago. So to the question - my normal Brady Bunch extended family had one misfit - me. It almost did'nt make a difference but in the end caught up with me. The rest of my family/cousins are Teachers, Professers, Doctors, Lawyers, Economists, Engineer for John Deere, things like that. :huh: So my good friends, nothing is carved in stone. Vips - stop what you are doing right now, turn the corner, smile, hang out with the others, learn from them even if you dont like it, put up a front at first if you have to, concentrate every second in class in school, you are headed for hell hideing in the corner, sittin on the fence, watching not participating. Believe me if you like or blow it off, but I know your scene, a little mind control will go along way to get out of this period in your life so you can come out - untrapped by that fence your sittin on. B) Into the fire man, just go for it !

[Croc]

Sorry, Croc, Panera is just a sandwich. An overpriced one at that.

[post="19993"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Why apologize? I agree with you. It is a very good sandwich though ^_^ Edited September 26, 2005 by Croc

[Flybrian]

Why apologize?  I agree with you.  It is a very good sandwich though ^_^

[post="20013"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Meh. It would be better if they dropped the price.

I don't like Panera because the local Panera is the reason why the local Schlotzky's Deli franchise closed. Schlotzky's was similarly expensive, but holy crap, you got alot of sandwich.

[Cory Wolfe]

Croc... dave summed it up pretty nicely. :D Actually, it's hard for me to explain. I'm tired... kinda out of it. So.. Um.. tomorrow I'll attempt it if no one else tries to answer. Has to do with the whole image thing, if you know what I mean. I don't mean to offend when I say anything agaisnt Ca. I just hate it... sorry. Razor... Thanks, I guess... I'm trying, but it isn't getting any easier.

[Croc]

Schlotzky's used to be good. But then they started cheaping out, using Ranch dressing instead of Mayo, and shrinking the sandwiches. Lots of people stopped going, and they shut down in Indy as well. I'm surprised you don't think Panera sandwiches are large though...they're large enough for me!

[Croc]

Croc... dave summed it up pretty nicely. :D

Actually, it's hard for me to explain. I'm tired... kinda out of it. So.. Um.. tomorrow I'll attempt it if no one else tries to answer. Has to do with the whole image thing, if you know what I mean. I don't mean to offend when I say anything agaisnt Ca. I just hate it... sorry.

Razor... Thanks, I guess... I'm trying, but it isn't getting any easier.

[post="20019"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not offended, I just don't understand it. And I don't know which "image" you refer to. I look forward to your explanation. Don't worry you aren't the first to mention this, you're just the first person to whom I'm asking of it.

[razoredge]

Dont want to get way off topic here. From the East and a country boy. Alot of good things have come from CA, Sammy Hagar for example. :) I think the thing about CA is everything is excepted. CA is like the epitomy of American culture, disposable everything, massive populations, massive environmental issues, keep up with the Jones, one entire suburbia everywhere, if your not like us your not cool, that kind of stuff. Its a percieved image tho because Ive never been there, its most likely the Hollywood image maybe. Hard to put a finger on it, I dont dislike Ca and am infact entertained by it but I dont want my world turned into a Cali surbanite culture. Its just not for me. But its comming, all areas are changing and the California thing is closing in. Its called Suburban Sprawl. My way of life will be run over and dumped down the tubes just like everything else that was Americana. Its not a good feeling, at all, uselessness, no longer needed, defunct, decomissioned, extinct. Pretty good job on the decades BTW.

[pow]

Dont want to get way off topic here. From the East and a country boy. Alot of good things have come from CA, Sammy Hagar for example. :)

I think the thing about CA is everything is excepted. CA is like the epitomy of American culture, disposable everything, massive populations, massive environmental issues, keep up with the Jones, one entire suburbia everywhere, if your not like us your not cool, that kind of stuff. Its a percieved image tho because Ive never been there, its most likely the Hollywood image maybe. Hard to put a finger on it, I dont dislike Ca and am infact entertained by it but I dont want my world turned into a Cali surbanite culture. Its just not for me. But its comming, all areas are changing and the California thing is closing in. Its called Suburban Sprawl. My way of life will be run over and dumped down the tubes just like everything else that was Americana. Its not a good feeling, at all, uselessness, no longer needed, defunct, decomissioned, extinct.

Pretty good job on the decades BTW.

[post="20040"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's so 15 years ago. :P I'd hardly consider modern California, or at least Los Angeles, to be generic suburbia. The Jones have moved elsewhere, places where they can afford a white-picket fence, cul-de-sac, a Camry and a Sienna, white neighbors, and some conservative religious institution.

[pow]

Schlotzky's used to be good.  But then they started cheaping out, using Ranch dressing instead of Mayo, and shrinking the sandwiches.  Lots of people stopped going, and they shut down in Indy as well.

I'm surprised you don't think Panera sandwiches are large though...they're large enough for me!

[post="20022"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The only good thing about Panera is their wi-fi, IMO. You could kill somebody with their bread... its, um, like a rock.

[Nick]

never heard of a panera...we've got quiznos though, and they're tasty...we've also got togos and subway... and about CA...well, I live here in SoCal, and frankly, I have been many places out of state and I really don't think it gets any better. Are there a lot of negatives about CA? sure, as there are with everywhere else. But we've got everything here. The weather is perfect, the people are beautiful (though we do have a lot of fuglys too). Great job opportunities. Great cars. Hell, SoCal is custom car capital of the world. Many parts of it are beautiful...America is often considered a melting pot. Well, California is like the melting pot of America itself.

[Croc]

razoredge: Thanks. I studied late-19th and 20th century America in a very good class last year, Film, Power and American History. We learned about labor movements (yes, unions were the ones giving us weekends, 40 hour work-weeks, and worker's comp/healthcare), the development of movies as part of American culture, the creation and rise of the Hollywood as we know it, and we learned all about the social issues that caused these other movements to happen. What made this class unique, however, was that we learned through books and films of the time period of study; for example, we watched silent films to learn about how life was depicted in the 1910s. We watched Grapes of Wrath for the Depression era, we watched Rebel Without a Cause for the 1950s, some movie about an interracial marriage for the 1960s, a Blaxploitation film for the 1970s, and Working Girl for the 1980s. Then we compared and contrasted the books and movies to get an overall picture of American history. Fascinating. But I digress...

As far as that image of California, you have to realize that California really should be broken into two states: NorCal and SoCal. Each has a very distinct culture. The ultra-liberal, environmentalist, idealistic, etc resides in the North (where they say "hella" all the time), while the Republican, conservative, wealthy, consumer culture, beach culture is primarily in the South. But God is it beautiful...

I know you aren't into Cali, but if there's one thing you should do before you die, drive the Pacific Coast Highway from San Diego to as far north as you wish (at least go to Pacific Palisades). Excepting the industrialized portion of this between Long Beach and Los Angeles, it is the most beautiful drive you will experience. It won't be fast, but the scenery is great.

empowah: I agree. LA is very urban. You gotta drive pretty much out of the county to find anything resembling modern suburbia, and even then it's difficult because everything is so tiny due to high demand.

I do NOT like Panera bagels, and I have not bought just "bread" from them, but I do enjoy the artisan sandwiches and soups. If the bread bowl is any indication of the bread, the exterior is pretty hard, but the interior is great. That's how I prefer my bread, actually...like a French baguette: hard on the outside soft on the inside.

[Croc]

Nick: in Santa Monica they have a Panera somewhat near to the Promenade, on Wilshire. It looks like an old, converted Denny's. Try it sometime, and get back with us ;)

That's the only location I'm aware of, but go to their site for one that's prolly closer to you:

http://www.panera.com Edited September 26, 2005 by Croc

[Nick]

yea, the closest one is like 20 miles away in Santa Clarita... Btw, on the PCH drive...go past Pacific Palisades...it just starts getting good then...take it up to Las Posas atleast...then you can finish it off with some fun high speed straightaways through the camarillo growing fields...

[Croc]

yea, the closest one is like 20 miles away in Santa Clarita...

Btw, on the PCH drive...go past Pacific Palisades...it just starts getting good then...take it up to Las Posas atleast...then you can finish it off with some fun high speed straightaways through the camarillo growing fields...

[post="20118"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Haha only reason I stopped there is cuz I cannot vouch for it any further north! My family made it about a mile north of Gladstone's, and that's it.

[Cremazie]

The "Family" is indeed changing, the stay at home mother is not there, and most marriages end in divorce. But that is a result of womens rights; supression by religion and society to stay married. Why stay married if everything is lost. My great aunt and great uncle were married for nearly 50 years. They never slept in the same room for the last 30 years.

[razoredge]

That's so 15 years ago. :P I'd hardly consider modern California, or at least Los Angeles, to be generic suburbia. The Jones have moved elsewhere, places where they can afford a white-picket fence, cul-de-sac, a Camry and a Sienna, white neighbors, and some conservative religious institution.

[post="20102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Bingo !
LA's a city = urban, wasnt thinking about that

I do hope to go see the Redwood and Sequoia forests but, time, money, death, all obsticals. Not sure what else there Im interested in. I have a Malamute was flown to Kennedy as pup from Simi Valley. :rolleyes: She is a snobby Bitch :P

[Drew Dowdell]

Meh. It would be better if they dropped the price.

I don't like Panera because the local Panera is the reason why the local Schlotzky's Deli franchise closed. Schlotzky's was similarly expensive, but holy crap, you got alot of sandwich.

[post="20014"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm a Quiznos kinda guy myself.

[Robert Hall]

The only good thing about Panera is their wi-fi, IMO. You could kill somebody with their bread... its, um, like a rock.

I like Panera's half-sandwich/soup deal... I go there once in a while, but parking at the one closest to my office is a pain..

[Robert Hall]

That's so 15 years ago. :P I'd hardly consider modern California, or at least Los Angeles, to be generic suburbia. The Jones have moved elsewhere, places where they can afford a white-picket fence, cul-de-sac, a Camry and a Sienna, white neighbors, and some conservative religious institution.

It seems like a lot of the white religious OC suburbanites moved here... (Colorado). There are a ton of ex-OC religious folk in Colorado Springs and Douglas County (south of Denver suburbia). Though we also have a lot of Bay Area dot-bomb escapees.. :)

[Cory Wolfe]

As far as that image of California, you have to realize that California really should be broken into two states: NorCal and SoCal. Each has a very distinct culture. The ultra-liberal, environmentalist, idealistic, etc resides in the North (where they say "hella" all the time), while the Republican, conservative, wealthy, consumer culture, beach culture is primarily in the South. But God is it beautiful...

Well... it must be NorCal that my some of my problems reside in. Basically its that, what razor said, the whole Hollywood culture, and it seems that everyone (not literally, ofcourse) is stuck up there. It's like "if your not like us your not cool" as razor said. It's all about what's cool and what isn't and everybody seems to follow. It's all about image... hence why Pontiac is about the least popular make there. Which brings me to my personal reason for not liking CA... The majority of them are Pontiac haters with Pontiac hating stereotypes. When I went there with my grandma in her Sunfire... it was like hell. People acted as if they were better than us because of it. I remember one person saying "Oh... you drive a Pontiac" in that... certain tone of voice, if you know I mean. Add to that the stories of similar experiences I've heard. They hate Pontiacs, damnit! <_< :P It should no wonder that I hate them. :D

However, I will say that it is very beautiful over there. Especially along the coast. Now if we could get some more Pontiacs over there with some angry Pontiac fanatics.... :lol:

[chris]

People are open minded, but people are also far too used to retail, consumery 'way too clean' places. Sometimes when I go out to buy food or random crap I'm almost sickened by how sterile chain stores can be. I'm much more at home in quirky little Montrose shops and smaller independent restaurants. There are a lot of people who share that belief with me, but do it in order to differentiate themselves and be 'cooler' than the consumery folks. Personally though, I'm just turned off by it. I also notice a lot less rebelliousness among young people. It seems to be cool to "do the right thing" and "be helpful". I'm not sure how this is going to affect their development socially, but I find it pretty disturbing. Then again I find it somewhat repulsive when any of my friends is unduly submissive. Having a spine is important. Edited September 26, 2005 by chris

[RichW5]

The 'family' is changing with the times.

I am a child of a non-nuclear family. My parents were divorced when I was 6 or so and I have lived with and was raised by my father (unusual) ever since. I am also mixed in race with my father being white with European heritage and my mother being Taiwanese with Chinese Han heritage.

According to many adherers of 'ideal family values', I should be despondant, distraught, a constant trouble maker lashing out at society. I wouldn't join a gang, but rather cause rukus on my own, stemming mainly from my identity crisis over my race since I don't know who I am. I should've failed in school and lost my girlfriend because I verbally or sexually abused her because I lack a balancing mother figure in my life.

Yet, I'm not. I'm fine. I graduated with honors in high school. I'm a junior in college purusuing a Bachelors in Aeronautical Sciences. I have a pilot's license and a $31,000/yr job as an assistant superintendant for a successful contracting firm. I have a wonderful relationship with my father, my friends, and my lovely girlfriend (almost 1 1/2 years now). And I'm an Administrator on C&G, a true sign of success!

I underwent no counseling, no divorce therepy, no psychiatric treatments when I was younger. I simply had a father who cared and loved me and helped me pursue my goals and a good network of peers and role models.

I say all that because I'm frankly sick of reading/seeing/hearing all this specious B.S. reasoning about the breakdown of 'traditional' family values and how if you don't have the perfect nuclear family, your family is dysfunctional and you're also dysfunctional. I've actually been told that by school counselors earlier in my life. What a joke!

My point in all that rambling is that modern America is changing. Few people live in a two-story townhome with a mother, a father, a sibling, a dog, a white picket fence, and a Camry (okay, maybe the Camry). The odds are the norm today - blended families, single-parent families, multiethnic families, and yes even *gasp* gay families. But you know what I think? Kids growing up in what is described by many as an 'inept, breakdown' society can be just as fucked up or successful as they were in any other time. Perhaps even more successful because they grow up in such a varied environment.

People all too often judge a family asthetically. It ignores the basic fact that a family is not what something is supposed to appear to be; its what it is. And as long as its caring, nuturing, understanding, and supportive, its a perfectly fine family to me.

[post="19959"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Brian has a lot to say, but I think my wife would break it down to one important sentence. "I simply had a father who cared and loved me and helped me pursue my goals and a good network of peers and role models."

My wife's ex was not a good father or role model. As a result, her boys are disfunctional. She believes that boys will listen to (and obey) a male, before they will listen to a female (Mother). She also believes that, "Boys need a strong male role model" and "It takes a Village to raise a child."

Her ex moved them 28 times in 10 years looking for work. She always had to work (he was out of work 6 months of every year) to pay their bills. There was always some little old lady or neighbor who would step in an help (her village) when things would go look bad.

The 28 year old will tell people that I've been a better father to him than his Dad, but the damage was done long before I came into the picture. Still, I can only hope that some day they will recognize the importance of "our family".

[NOS2006]

Why apologize?  I agree with you.  It is a very good sandwich though ^_^

[post="20013"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Turkey Bravo. Mmmm. :wub:

[RichW5]

A few more comments: Panera sucks, but the wife loves it, so I get Broccoli Cheese soup and a Siera Turkey sandwich. About Multi-Ethnic Families My niece (Polish and Slovenian) married a Hawiian (Hawiian, Japanese, French and German) So my great niece and nephews are all of the above. The 34 year old step-son (and right-wing nut) is marrying a Jamaican girl (who would have figured) November 1st on a Princess cruise. She's asked me to give her away. My wife and I will have a Jamaican daughter-in-law, but there's not much chance of kids, as they are too much into themselves. Still, for someone who grew up somewhere between Beaver and his brother, life has become very interesting.

[Sixty8panther]

Cool thread, I really do not want ot get all that DEEP right now. AS far as my viesws on the world here's my top 3 concerns for my Daughter's future. (in order of importance) 1. Big Brother scares me, a LOT! Our rights & liberties are being taken away ever so slowly. Even the tiniest trickle will eventually empty a swiming pool. 2. Jobs, jobs JOBS! I'm so sick of these retards in the Media gauging the jopb market and the relative state of the economy by the stockmarket... that's no more accurate then my measuring the job market by the going price of a '1960 Dodge on the classic car market. Just because the stock market is doing well or better and the economy is suupposedly recovering does NOT mean that our country men are not loisng hundreds of jobs to overseas every day! WTF is the point of a good stock market and a war on terrorism if I can't feed my family? Oh, wait it just came ot me, that's right the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. :angry: 3. Terrorism. I'm not the genius who is supposed to be monitoring/preventing it but I'l tell you I think we could be doing a better job than wasing our lives/time/resources/money in Iraq. To Bush's credit we have not had another attack since we went ot Iraq so he's doing something right. Now as far as all this bible belt talk of gays being evil and religion it's mostly just a distraction. I think Abortion should be illegal unles it is performed RIGHT away... a baby has a heartbeat at 6 weeks. Muirder is murder. And I think the Pledge of Alegiance DOES belong in schools!!! It does not say anything abo Catholicism or any PARTICULAR God. IF you're a 13 year old Atheist then what's the big deal there's no harm in giving God a 'tip of the hat' every morning. Otherwise consider yourself pledging to YOUR God whom ever he/she/it happens to be. And for God's sake STOP litteraly interpreting the Bible for your extremist oppinions. We do not turn the other cheek neither do we uphold the eye-for-eye rule...right there are two extremist points of view that do NOT mesh. The bible was written by man and altered/edited/butchered for thousands of years, if you live by it as if it was a "Human owner's manual" then you need to join us in the 21st century. BTW: I'm a Libertarian if it was not obvious...

[NOS2006]

I'd like to add one MAJOR thing.... Americans as a whole don't accept each other as well as they did in the 70s. Now people sue everybody else over anything stupid they can possibly think of. Also, patriotism is lower because of all of this. However, notice how we are MORE accepting now of different races/colors, homosexuals, etc.? Ironic, eh?

[Croc]

I'd like to add one MAJOR thing....

Americans as a whole don't accept each other as well as they did in the 70s. Now people sue everybody else over anything stupid they can possibly think of. Also, patriotism is lower because of all of this.

However, notice how we are MORE accepting now of different races/colors, homosexuals, etc.? Ironic, eh?

[post="20325"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not sure I follow. Product liability and lawsuits have been around for a long time. Frivolous lawsuits have too. Just because of the media and internet and our increased communications abilities, we hear about it more easily/often. Some things really need to be sued over. Other things? People need to quit being babies. But people have always been babies. I think American society as a whole is far more accepting now than it was even in the 1980s. Will & Grace couldn't have been on in the 1980s, and The Cosby Show was a BIG DEAL back then. Remember Madonna's "Like A Prayer" video? I don't see the scandal.

As far as product liability, people sued each other over small things back in the day too. Do you have anything to back up what you said?

[sciguy_0504]

The liberalism of American culture. It started in the 60's and keeps on going. Liberalism is all about bringing about change and being progressive, trying new things, accepting everyone and all opinions (except ones that differ from the liberal mindset), how there can be no wrong, etc. I'm 18 and there are things that I did 10 years ago (watch TGIF on ABC with my family, for example) that no one does today. Hell, TGIF isn't even popular (is it still on?). In that short amount of time things change and, IMO, for the worst. Nowdays it's family who molds your character. It's what your parents have instilled in you (if they even pay attention to you). Mainstream society used to keep things in check but not anymore. It's shutup by the fringes. Up until high school, I never came home to an empty house. My mom worked around me and my sister. My family always eats dinner together. Without a doubt I'll carry some of those things with me and do them with my kids. Up until high school I rarely new people who were living in a single-parent home. That's all changed now. Sex, drugs and alcoholism are rampant (and I mean rampant) in the 13-18 year old range. You could possibly go even younger than that. Who do I blame for that? Parents. They have control over their kids, they decide whether their 14-year old daughter can dress up like a skank or their 17-year old son can go to some party with no adult supervision, drink and then get in a car. Society looks down upon it but really what can it do? It's criticized as "racist" or "sexist" or "facist" when it speaks out against the unmoral things that happen. The #1 thing that people said when asked why they voted for who they did during the 2004 election was "morality." Now that's been debated and you'll probably debate it on the thread but I think that proves what I'm trying to say. Mainstream America does not agree with abortion, gay marriage, lowering the drinking age, legalizing drugs, leanient sentences against criminals, etc. Various polls have shown the majority of Americans want conservative judges appointed to the two vacancies on the Supreme Court. Why? Take a look at the few assinine rulings made in the past few months and you'll see. My two cents. Let the harrassment begin. Edit: spelling. Edited September 27, 2005 by sciguy_0504

[NOS2006]

Not sure I follow.  Product liability and lawsuits have been around for a long time.  Frivolous lawsuits have too.  Just because of the media and internet and our increased communications abilities, we hear about it more easily/often.  Some things really need to be sued over.  Other things?  People need to quit being babies.  But people have always been babies.  I think American society as a whole is far more accepting now than it was even in the 1980s.  Will & Grace couldn't have been on in the 1980s, and The Cosby Show was a BIG DEAL back then.  Remember Madonna's "Like A Prayer" video?  I don't see the scandal.

As far as product liability, people sued each other over small things back in the day too.  Do you have anything to back up what you said?

[post="20390"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, as I said in my first post, I don't know anything about previous gens. I've just heard that these days people will sue over ANYTHING. So I've just gotten the assumption that people of yesteryear wouldn't sue over such silly things..

[razoredge]

Lawsuits were nothing at all in the 60's and earlier 70's compared to how it took off in the 80's and 90's. Its become the big thing to sue over everything and anything. I believe we have to much "freedom" today. Back when the constitution was writtin those forefathers never would have thought those rights or freedoms would be turned into a defence for being a completely inconsiderate, attention seeking, moron. Todays behavior was unthinkable 230 years ago and its deterioration in the past 30 has been unreal, yet our very constitution defends extreme moronism. However at the same time our bleeding heart, liberal, politically correct, manicured, gumbys have writtin enough laws to place the burdon of changing the entire natural instincts of protection and toleration on a few generations. One of which is mine at least.

[Sixty8panther]

Not sure I follow.  Product liability and lawsuits have been around for a long time.  Frivolous lawsuits have too.  ...Do you have anything to back up what you said?

[post="20390"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm pretty sure no one sued McDonalds or any other company back in the 1950s because the customer asked for a hot coffee and received it, and then spilled it all over their lap.

And I'd be willing to bet if someone broke inot your house wiht a Ski mask and slipped on your rug while carrying (stealing!) a TV he wouldn't WIN a lawsuit asking for medical and emotional compensation. He would have gotten what he deserves, a swift kick in the A$$ from teh cops and a free ride in a police car. That's it! No money. <_<

[Croc]

I don't think McDonald's had coffee in the 1950s... Of course, all of the lawsuits have forced companies to make safer products. Cars, appliances, etc. are all safer as a result of lawsuits.

[razoredge]

I agree, but why is MCDonalds coffee so hot ? As for the breaking into the house and falling, that is why we have concrete and a vast assortment of rivers and lakes in the US, also valuable resources for curing ignorant Judges/lawmakers as well as scum bag lawyers. Edited September 27, 2005 by razoredge

[Croc]

I don't think the coffee is any hotter than at Starbucks, or anywhere else. To make coffee you need boiling water :rolleyes: If it's still warm it must be pretty freshly brewed.

[Flybrian]

I think the precedent of the lawsuit was that McDonalds coffee was shown to be brewed at excessive temperatures and this wasn't the first case.

[z28luvr01]

I remembered going over this case in a business law class I took for my Master's. Yes, it seems frivolous, but if you look at it in the eyes of a lawyer, the plaintiff had a very good case.

At the trial, it was revealed:

McDonalds required their coffee kept at 185 degrees Fahrenheit, plus or minus 5 degrees, significantly higher than other establishments. [Coffee is usually served at 135 to 140 degrees]
An expert testified that 180 degree liquids will cause full thickness burns in 2 to 7 seconds.
McDonalds knew before this accident that burn hazards exist with any foods served above 140 degrees.
McDonalds knew that its coffee would burn drinkers at the temperature they served it.
McDonalds research showed that customers consumed coffee immediately while driving.
McDonalds knew of over 700 people burned by its coffee, including many third-degree burns similar to Ms. Liebeck's.
McDonalds had received previous requests from consumers and safety organizations to lower their coffee temperature.
There were many things McDonalds could've done to prevent injuries:

lowering the holding temperature of their coffee,
putting warning labels on the cups not to drink immediately,
redesigning the cups to minimize tipping or prevent drinking in cars
McDonalds knew of the risk and knew scores of injured customers, but did nothing to mitigate the chance of injury.

Evidence showed that McDonalds served their coffee so hot to save money. This let them get away with a cheaper grade of coffee and cut down on the number of free refills they had to give away. McDonalds executives testified that they thought it would be cheaper to pay claims and worker's compensation benefits to people burned by their coffee versus making any of these changes.

Even the trial court judge called McDonalds' conduct willful, wanton, reckless and callous.

On to the situation at hand:

Stella Liebeck, age 79, was a passenger in the car.
The car was at a full stop so she could add cream and sugar to her coffee. [She was not the driver and the car was not moving.]
The cup tipped and spilled over her lap.
Within a few seconds, Ms. Liebeck suffered third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, genitals and groin.
Ms. Liebeck was hospitalized for 8 days, and required skin grafting and debridement treatments.
Parts of Ms. Liebeck's body were permanently scarred.
Ms. Liebeck tried to settle with McDonald's for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses. McDonalds offered her $800. She sought mediation, but McDonald's refused.
The jury initially awarded Ms. Liebeck the equivalent of two days worth of coffee sales for McDonalds as punitive damages.
The trial judge reduced the verdict to something under $600,000.
McDonalds has since lowered the temperature on their coffee.

Source: http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/essay_mcdonalds.htm

[Flybrian]

Thanks, Z. We did a case study on this in Ethics class and once you know facts aside from the "Old lady spilled coffee" headline, you understand the results aren't unreasonable.