Popular Mechanics: Full-Size Truck Comparison

[Derek77]

Here is the running order:

1st: Nissan Titan SE

2nd: Toyota Tundra Crewmax Limited

3rd: Chevrolet Crew Cab LT2

4th: Ford F150 King Ranch

5th: Dodge Ram Laramie

To see why the Nissan Titan was 1st, you just need to look at what they had to say about it. Here's what they said:

The last time we compared full-sized pickups, in January 2004, the Titan won. Since then, every truck has been redesigned. No matter, the Titan retains its title. At the dragstrip, with 1000 pounds in the bed, the Titan crossed the quarter-mile mark two-hundredths of a second after the rocket-sled Tundra. Though the Tundra has 64 more horsepower, the Titan weighs less. It's the lightest truck here, which helped its fuel economy numbers.The Titan was midpack in all our handling test, even though it had the tallest tires with the most aggressive off-road biased tread. Our test Titan is the best equipped for going off-road; in fact, it was the best in the dirt and the only truck here to come with a pushbutton locking differential. The Titan also has the most useful bed of the group, with huge, movable tiedown cleats, a bed liner and a unique bedside lockbox. Inside, the Titan is roomy and comfortable, rivaling the limousine-like Tundra for rear legroom. THe only major strike against the Nissan is the use of hard and cheap-looking interior plastics. Nonetheless, each night every tester wanted to drive the Titan back to the hotel.

I'm sold, how about you. A nice midpacker.

On the Silverado, they said, "There's no complaint with the redesigned interiors....But once we settled into the supportive driver's seat, it was clear the cab wasn't noticeably roomier than the previous model's. They didn't like the transmission either. But they liked the way it drove; suspension and steering, towing abilities.

Anyways, there's more in the story, but it's a pretty lame write up. I'm not saying their are no faults on the new Silverado, but the Titan, winning their comparison?

[Variance]

Interesting to see that the Titan holds up pretty well to newer competition.

[Northstar]

The Titan wasn't even the best truck when it came out, so any publication picking it over the Silverado, Tundra, or F-150 is very questionable.

[Intrepidation]

The Titan wasn't even the best truck when it came out, so any publication picking it over the Silverado, Tundra, or F-150 is very questionable.

When it came out it offered a strong powertrain, functional interior, and extremely innovative and useful bed. This holds true today. It's quality may not be all there, and its looks aren't by any means it's strong point, but deserves respect.

[regfootball]

about 18 months ago i was actually shopping pickups. i found the Titan to be inferior to the F-150. The F-150 was more refined and solid. The titan was noisy, had lots of driveline lash, and felt cheap. It didn't have all the power some think it does.

MEH.

[balthazar]

>>"When it came out it offered a strong powertrain, functional interior, and extremely innovative and useful bed. This holds true today. It's quality may not be all there, and its looks aren't by any means it's strong point, but deserves respect. "<<

Powertrain was only comparable, as was interior functionality. What exactly about the bed was "extremely innovative", because usefullness is only, again, comparable, not superior. Factor in lesser quality & reliability, and far less in the way of powertrain & configuration choices and you have an inferior competitor: not sure how lavish we should rightfully be with 'respect'.

Edited February 4, 2007 by balthazar

[bcs296]

And it has finally happened. The Big 3 can't even say that they are the best in that one segment anymore: full size trucks. The sad thing is they knew it was coming for years and they still couldn't manage to stay on top.

[Northstar]

And it has finally happened. The Big 3 can't even say that they are the best in that one segment anymore: full size trucks. The sad thing is they knew it was coming for years and they still couldn't manage to stay on top.

That's only if you base your opinion on this one review from Popular Mechanics, of all places. C&D picked the Silverado as the best truck in their recent issue, I'd take C&D's opinion over Popular Mechanics' opinion any day.

[bcs296]

Agreed - a cynical moment on my part, but I suppose I had high hopes of a situation where there would be no question whose truck is the best.

Admittedly, the Titan absolutely does NOT deserve to be anywhere near 1st place, however it is disheartening to see the Tundra ahead of the Silverado again (re: edmunds).

Just a result of the difference between GM's and Toyota's financial situations I guess.

[Cadillacfan]

You need to base your opinion on actual experience. Go out there and test drive these vehicles and compare them yourself. Unfortunately, in an age where the media is struggling to maintain it's objectivity, we have the automobile magazines crapping all over those efforts with one sided articles and import-friendly opinions. No, I'm not saying that Toyota and Nissan's trucks aren't competitive or class-leading. They certainly did their homework and are producing some solid trucks but the hype that magazines like Motortrend, Automobile, and Popular Mechanics are giving the Japanese automakers is blatently biased that you wonder if GM or Ford will ever get a fair shake again. It's sad that objective journalism has gone down the crapper thanks to major media conglomerates that only worry about ad revenues.

[Chicagoland]

And it has finally happened. The Big 3 can't even say that they are the best in that one segment anymore: full size trucks. The sad thing is they knew it was coming for years and they still couldn't manage to stay on top.

Totally based on OPINION

They are still on top in sales, but opinion varies.

[enzl]

That's only if you base your opinion on this one review from Popular Mechanics, of all places. C&D picked the Silverado as the best truck in their recent issue, I'd take C&D's opinion over Popular Mechanics' opinion any day.

So long as the article is positive on GM products?

I have to chuckle at the inconsistency. How often is C&D dismissed here as an import-shilling rag?

I don't take issue with N* per se, just that this logical inconsistency (C&D is being 'fair' to the Silverado, but cruel to the Saturn placing 4th in a weak group of competitors.)

[Flybrian]

I don't take issue with N* per se, just that this logical inconsistency (C&D is being 'fair' to the Silverado, but cruel to the Saturn placing 4th in a weak group of competitors.)

The problem many (including I) had with that Saturn piece was this specious 'GOTTA-HAVE-IT' score carrying so much weight in what was already a tight scoring. Its something that was poorly defined and sorely misplaced, especially in a test of midlevel family sedans.

[Drew Dowdell]

The problem many (including I) had with that Saturn piece was this specious 'GOTTA-HAVE-IT' score carrying so much weight in what was already a tight scoring. Its something that was poorly defined and sorely misplaced, especially in a test of midlevel family sedans.

yeah, cause the Camry is so totally "gotta-have-it"!

[enzl]

You need to base your opinion on actual experience. Go out there and test drive these vehicles and compare them yourself. Unfortunately, in an age where the media is struggling to maintain it's objectivity, we have the automobile magazines crapping all over those efforts with one sided articles and import-friendly opinions. No, I'm not saying that Toyota and Nissan's trucks aren't competitive or class-leading. They certainly did their homework and are producing some solid trucks but the hype that magazines like Motortrend, Automobile, and Popular Mechanics are giving the Japanese automakers is blatently biased that you wonder if GM or Ford will ever get a fair shake again. It's sad that objective journalism has gone down the crapper thanks to major media conglomerates that only worry about ad revenues.

C'mon..

It's a conspiracy?

How about this theory: The domestics were so bad for so long that they are given no leeway on new product.

Or, the cost disadvantage of the domestic 2.5 is so great that the product cannot possibly be as good.

And, if it was the 'media conglomerates' influencing the content, why is it that almost every upstart website has the same or worse to say for most pre-05 domestic products?

It's just an excuse. Are the domestics getting better? Absolutely. Are they there yet? Not on your life.

The relentless competition in a 'mature' industry competing on a global scale with millions of cars worth of overcapacity results in some crazy swings and, unfortunately, has trapped the 2.5 in the bottom of the barrel, as it currently stands.

Look no further than Europe for what is happening here now. Although, ironically, the last european in the barrel (Fiat) looks a hell of a lot better than when they were in bed with GM. Coincidence?

[z28luvr01]

the last european in the barrel (Fiat) looks a hell of a lot better than when they were in bed with GM. Coincidence?

That wouldn have anything to do with all the money Fiat got from GM last year, now would it?

[enzl]

That wouldn have anything to do with all the money Fiat got from GM last year, now would it?

exactly my point...Fiat was a failing company who was able to bamboozle the brightest economic minds at GM, bend them over with a rediculous buyout option and then extort the same geniuses into paying them to go away.

Incredibly, at the same time, the Fiat product developers were able to take the bones of GM's architectures and create (during a time of extreme duress) Fiats and Alfas that have led their renaissance. Sounds like an expertise the people at GM, Ford or DCX might want to tap when their backs are against the wall, no?

Now, who looks like the idiot in that scenario? GM lost twice and got 0 from the relationship, basically. Sounds alot like the Isuzu, Suzuki & Subaru fiascos as well.

The 2 billion Fiat got from GM does not explain the sales figures for Fiat and its subs....they lost more than that yearly when struggling....

[balthazar]

C'mon.. It's a conspiracy? How about this theory: The domestics were so bad for so long that they are given no leeway on new product.

Does your theory work for hyundai, too?? Will it come into play with mercedes, VW and land rover soon?

[enzl]

Does your theory work for hyundai, too?? Will it come into play with mercedes, VW and land rover soon?

Absolutely.

When they each have millions of dissatisfied consumers avoiding their dealerships like the salesmen spread the plague...

...I should know, as we depend on domestics to keep our facilities running. It's depressing and takes enormous marketing dollars to put fannies in the seats....

[balthazar]

So hyundai is not receiving any leeway for their recent products, based on the vast majority of their horrendous manufacturing history? We're getting full-on, glib-n-snide, overwrought articles repeatedly hawking back to the accent and the pony, coloring all reviewed-vehicle traits with cautionary tales from the Way Back Machine?

Oh good- I was under the impression the media has forgiven & forgotten how wretchedly wretched hyundai's reputation is.

[enzl]

So hyundai is not receiving any leeway for their recent products, based on the vast majority of their horrendous manufacturing history? We're getting full-on, glib-n-snide, overwrought articles repeatedly hawking back to the accent and the pony, coloring all reviewed-vehicle traits with cautionary tales from the Way Back Machine?

Oh good- I was under the impression the media has forgiven & forgotten how wretchedly wretched hyundai's reputation is.

Firstly, I'm not defending Hyundai or their history.

Second, here's my take, with my experience as management for an extremely large enterprise...

For the same reason (psychographics, et al.) that GM is throwing an enormous amount of money at Saturn,-- Hyundai, VW, Land Rover & dozens of other brands have the advantage of never having a negative or, usually, any association in the consumers' mind.

This is the opposite of the older GM brands, which have been tarnished by awful product, planning, service and, as a past market leader, everyone knows personally what kind of crap was being turned out....much of it as recently as 3/4 years ago. Conversely, the other, smaller brands have not had the widespread distribution of crap that they produced.

In the consumer's minds-eye, this 'hurdle' of negative connotation is HUGE when you're asking someone to throw down $30K or 500/mo for 5 years....

I understand that, conceptually, as GM fans it is hard to recognize this and, furthermore, since you obviously don't feel this way, there's a cognitive dissonance to the very thought of this reality. I can tell you, with years of experience and 1,000's of new/used cars beiong sold out of my dealerships that this is the prevailing attitude amongst most consumers.

I can sell domestics on a deal, with the exception of unique or high demand product. I can sell Toyotas & Nissans with an order-taker and a guy doing PDI....the Altima, for instance, had dozens of pre-orders. The new Impala had 2 when it appeared. I can't get Toyota's in fast enough, whereas Chrysler is trying to bribe me to take inventory when I've already got 90 day+ supply on hand. Ford is willing to give us a franchise...the guy down the street handed his back to Ford and sold the property because he couldn't make money as a Ford dealer anymore.

That's the reality. You can paint a rosy picture of GM's "recovery" or brag about the fantastic new product that's coming (& it is) but for a better ssense of what is really happening, ask a dealer how they are really doing...it's a bloodbath that is being financed by subvented deals, floorplanning assitance and dealer spiffs that are oftentimes the entirety of the profit on a deal.

The logic behind stating that other people sold crap cars too is another excuse, just like media bias.

[buyacargetacheck]

I'm not surprised. Popular Mechanics also went out of its way to publish an article and a followup book "debunking" the belief (that many educated people have now) that World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2 and 7 fell because of prepositioned explosives. The book and article are full strawman arguments. Hard to say what their motivation was in publishing such lightweight garbage.

I wonder what their motivation is in ranking 2 pretty good Japanese trucks over their arguably better domestic competition?

[enzl]

I'm not surprised. Popular Mechanics also went out of its way to publish an article and a followup book "debunking" the belief (that many educated people have now) that World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2 and 7 fell because of prepositioned explosives. The book and article are full strawman arguments. Hard to say what their motivation was in publishing such lightweight garbage.

I wonder what their motivation is in ranking 2 pretty good Japanese trucks over their arguably better domestic competition?

Are you saying that there may have been explosives in those buildings?....cause if you are, any credibility you had just sank to 0.

I was in Manhattan that day, sir, and by no means was what happened that day a stunt, ruse or ploy. To use PM's completely unrelated editorial decision to somehow discredit their rankings of your beloved pickups is not just idiotic, its wrong. It's insulting and just pathetic.

Edited February 9, 2007 by enzl

[buyacargetacheck]

Sorry, your being in Manhattan on that day gives you no credentials. On the other hand, I do trust the firemen and police who saw, felt and heard the explosions. Don't take my word for it, read what the physicists and logicians are writing:

http://www.amazon.com/11-American-Empire-I...TF8&s=books

9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out

Book Description

Practically from the moment the dust settled in New York and Washington after the attacks of September 11, a movement has grown of survivors, witnesses, and skeptics who have never quite been able to accept the official story. When theologian David Ray Griffin turned his attention to this topic in his book The New Pearl Harbor (2003), he helped give voice to a disquieting rumble of critiques and questions from many Americans and people around the world about the events of that day. Were the military and the FAA really that incompetent? Were our intelligence-gathering agencies really in the dark about such a possibility? In short, how could so much go wrong at once, in the world's strongest and most technologically sophisticated country?

Both the government and the mainstream media have since tried to portray the 9/11 truth movement as led by people who can be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" able to find an outlet for their ideas only on the internet. This volume, with essays by intellectuals from Europe and North America, shows this caricature to be untrue. Coming from different intellectual disciplines as well as from different parts of the world, these authors are united in the conviction that the official story about 9/11 is a huge deception manufactured to extend imperial control at home and abroad.

Contributors include Richard Falk, Daniele Ganser, David Ray Griffin, Steven E. Jones, Karin Kwiatkowski, John McMurtry, Peter Phillips, Morgan Reynolds, Kevin Ryan, Peter Dale Scott, Ola Tunander.

About the Author

Peter Dale Scott is a former Canadian diplomat and professor of English at the University of California, Berkeley. His most recent book is Drugs, Oil, and War: The United States in Afghanistan, Colombia, and Indochina. His next book is entitled The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America. A poet, he was a winner in 2002 of the Lannan Poetry Award.

Are you saying that there may have been explosives in those buildings?....cause if you are, any credibility you had just sank to 0.

I was in Manhattan that day, sir, and by no means was what happened that day a stunt, ruse or ploy. To use PM's completely unrelated editorial decision to somehow discredit their rankings of your beloved pickups is not just idiotic, its wrong. It's insulting and just pathetic.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Sorry, your being in Manhattan on that day gives you no credentials. On the other hand, I do trust the firemen and police who saw, felt and heard the explosions. Don't take my word for it, read what the physicists and logicians are writing:

http://www.amazon.com/11-American-Empire-I...TF8&s=books

9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out

Book Description

Practically from the moment the dust settled in New York and Washington after the attacks of September 11, a movement has grown of survivors, witnesses, and skeptics who have never quite been able to accept the official story. When theologian David Ray Griffin turned his attention to this topic in his book The New Pearl Harbor (2003), he helped give voice to a disquieting rumble of critiques and questions from many Americans and people around the world about the events of that day. Were the military and the FAA really that incompetent? Were our intelligence-gathering agencies really in the dark about such a possibility? In short, how could so much go wrong at once, in the world's strongest and most technologically sophisticated country?

Both the government and the mainstream media have since tried to portray the 9/11 truth movement as led by people who can be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" able to find an outlet for their ideas only on the internet. This volume, with essays by intellectuals from Europe and North America, shows this caricature to be untrue. Coming from different intellectual disciplines as well as from different parts of the world, these authors are united in the conviction that the official story about 9/11 is a huge deception manufactured to extend imperial control at home and abroad.

Contributors include Richard Falk, Daniele Ganser, David Ray Griffin, Steven E. Jones, Karin Kwiatkowski, John McMurtry, Peter Phillips, Morgan Reynolds, Kevin Ryan, Peter Dale Scott, Ola Tunander.

About the Author

Peter Dale Scott is a former Canadian diplomat and professor of English at the University of California, Berkeley. His most recent book is Drugs, Oil, and War: The United States in Afghanistan, Colombia, and Indochina. His next book is entitled The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America. A poet, he was a winner in 2002 of the Lannan Poetry Award.

I have dealt with these stories from the beginning. ITs amzing how much they have evolved. I used to get a good laugh about this with many different people.

Educate yourself.

The very idea is so disgusting it makes me sick. First they werent planes, then they were holograms, then planes but this time military type, then ,issiles...its all BULL&#036;h&#33;. It is easily refutable. I have done much research and can without a doubt conclude the collapse was soley from the impact of the planes, the fire and the construction of the building. You mention bombs, thermite or any other &#036;h&#33; and i will smack the &#036;h&#33; out of you.

It would take tons of thermite and days/weeks/months to rig it. In buildings that were always full. IT would stink and there would be evidence al over the place. There is not.

as for NYPD and NYFD most of their quotes were taken out of context. Read this learn something and shut the f@#k up.

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

and 2 other things. High rises are built knowing a plane could crash into it. The speeds however were only conducted at landing approach speeds. This hit at 500 mph and with 22,000 gallons of jet fuel. IT burns just enough to wilt the steel .11-1600 degrees if i recall correctly. WE were lucky it just didnt break in half.

and 2 the empire state or chrysler probably would have survived in tact because of the excess concrete and no steel exoskelton construction like WTC N and WTC S.

[Mr.Krinkle]

http://www.debunking911.com/quotes.htm

“I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?”--Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory

Now the WHOLE QUOTE without the taking out of context...

I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q.: Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

A: No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

Dont be such a sucker.

If this were even remotely true it would be the biggest news story EVER. not found in some anti goverment prison planet type nonsense.

[buyacargetacheck]

It is easily refutable. Apparently not.

It would take tons of thermite and days/weeks/months to rig it. How would you know?

In buildings that were always full. Actually, there was a powerdown for an entire weekend beofre 9/11.

IT would stink How would you know?

and there would be evidence al over the place. There is not. That's right, there is no evidence available to study because it was all immediately shipped off to China for recycling. Tampering with evidence at a crime scene, by the way, is a federal crime. We spent more money investigating Bill Clinton's lying about his blow job than we have as to why WTC 1, 2 and 7 fell.

as for NYPD and NYFD most of their quotes were taken out of context. I don't need to read "out of context" quotes Krinkle. I've listened to the 9/11 tapes and seen the firemens' testimony on video.

and 2 the empire state or chrysler probably would have survived in tact because of the excess concrete and no steel exoskelton construction like WTC N and WTC S.

Krinkle, I guess you didn't know that most of the supporting strength for WTC 1 and 2 came from the CORE 47 steel columns INSIDE the buildings! The strength of the buildings didn't come from the exoskeleton.

Instead of visiting 911debunked.com (whose owner will not apparently reveal either his identity nor his credentials, try reading a book on the subject for a change.

Sorry to those of you not interested in 9/11. This is really not the forum for this, but I simply no longer trust the opinion of Popular Mechanics on anything as they apparently have no use for scientific methods and analysis.

[buyacargetacheck]

Sometimes the truth hurts Krinkle. Go read a book.

http://www.debunking911.com/quotes.htm

“I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?”--Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory

Now the WHOLE QUOTE without the taking out of context...

I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q.: Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

A: No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

Dont be such a sucker.

If this were even remotely true it would be the biggest news story EVER. not found in some anti goverment prison planet type nonsense.

[Mr.Krinkle]

how do i know?Note how much thermite is used. The pot is about a liter, but how much thermite is that?

Stoichiometric thermite requires 2 moles of Al per 1 mole of Fe2O3

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

2 moles of Al weigh 54 g

1 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 160 g

density of Al=2.64 g/cc

density of Fe2O3=5.24 g/cc

54 grams of Al is equivalent to 20.5 cc of Al.

160g of Fe2O3 is equivalent to 30.5 cc of Fe2O3

Therefore, 51 cc of fully dense powder of 20.5 cc Al and 30.5 cc Fe2O3 weighs (54+160) g = 214 g.

A volume of 1000 cc would weigh (1000/51)*214 = 4.2 kg

For a powder packing density of 50%, the powder would weigh:

0.5*4.2 kg = 2.1 kg = 4.8 lb

That much just to burn a small hole in a small car engine. I bet it's even an aluminum block but lets say it isn't. How much do you think it would take to burn a massive core column? Then add enough to burn for 6 weeks! You see where we're going. You'd need tons.

Here's a Debunking911 Fun Fact!

How much mass would be required to produce molten iron from thermite equal to the same volume of molten aluminum droplets shown flowing from the south tower window:

A mole of Fe weighs 54 g. For every mole of Fe produced by thermite, one mole of Al and 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 is needed.

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

One mole of Al weighs 27 g. 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 80 g.

Therefore, (27 + 80) g = 107 g of Al and Fe2O3 is needed to produce 54 g of Fe.

That means the mass of the reactants to that of Fe produced is a ratio of 107/54 = 2. The mass of thermite reactants (Al, Fe2O3) is twice that of the molten iron produced.

Comparing the weight of molten aluminum droplets compared with iron:

Iron is 7.9 g/cc. Aluminum is 2.64 g/cc. Fe is denser than Al by a factor of 3. For the same volume of droplets, Fe would have three times the mass as Al.

To produce the iron from thermite requires a reactant mass that is a factor of 2 more than the iron produced. Also, Fe is 3 times as dense as Al. So, it would take 2*3 = 6 times as much mass to produce the same volume of molten iron droplets from thermite compared with molten aluminum droplets.

Example:

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.

Suppose 10 tons of molten aluminum fell from the south tower, about 1/8th of that available from the airplane. If it had been molten iron produced from thermite, 60 tons of thermite reactants would have to have been stored in Fuji Bank to produce the same volume spilling out of the south tower. The section of floor would have to hold all of that plus the aircraft.

*Amount of aluminum can be ascertained by counting the droplets and measuring their size compared to the known size of the window. It's not easy to get a good number on this. It's based on the number of slugs seen in video stills, their size relative to the window width which was about 22 inches, and the density of aluminum, assuming this was aluminum.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm

The weight of a gallon of aluminum is about 22.5 pounds. A hundred of these would already be 2250 lbs. A gallon size is not unlike the size of the slugs that were pouring out the window. Look at them relative to the window size. They look small at first, but when you realize how big the towers were, the slugs were fairly large. It must have been in the thousands of pounds.

Alex Jones, professional conspiracy theorist radio host, has said Jones found evidence of thermite. This isn't true. What Jones found was something which would have been in the debris pile anyway. Sulfur...

WTC Thermite

Sulfur

In Steven Jones' PDF "Answers to Objections and Questions", to support his claim for Sol-gels/Thermite he states:

"One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done,"

However when you look at the link he uses

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsai...page-right-area

You find out Mr. Jones edits out the VERY next line which states

"He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers."

Apparently, Jones felt this was not important enough for his readers to know.

Sloppy research or purposeful deception by the "scholars"? The evidence for one is growing...

Ive read plenty of books, objectively looking for some answers.

you should do the same and not listen to what you want to.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Actual physics at play.

how about you offer some proof that it was. now.

with evidence.

i wont wait around because it cant be done. you know why?

Because there is none.

[Mr.Krinkle]

The sulfur that was found by this crackpot professor that he believes to be a resultant of thermite reaction was more probably present because of the burning cars in the underground garages. It leaves the same footprint. Why youd guess thermite before tires --which there were plenty of--is suspect. Maybe we should ask the people who fund his research?

Its delusional.

Why would you even bring this up? this is old news.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Sometimes the truth hurts Krinkle. Go read a book.

And here is the outright LIE...

“ we heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down.” -- Firefighter Craig Carlsen

Note where these liars put the "...."

Now for the REAL quote...

I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.

all bull&#036;h&#33;.

and lets not forget the cocksuckers that claimed responsibility, Unless of course al jazeera is in on it with the rest of the of the US government.

[buyacargetacheck]

Krinkle, the fact is no one knows why the buildings fell at free fall speed, i.e., the speed of gravity(!). How is it possible for the roof of these buildings to hit the ground in 10 seconds? It would mean that there was no resistance at all despite the buildings only being hit near the middle floors and only damaging a few of the core columns! AND NO EXPLANATION FOR THE UNIVERSAL FREE FALL OF BUILDING 7 WHICH WAS NOT HIT BY A PLANE!!!

Professor Steven Jones himself does not say conclusively that thermite was used. In fact, he suggests that SUPERTHERMATE, a higher-powered compound used exclusively by the military was more likely.

In any event, the honest researchers are not making definitive statements about what happened. THEY ARE, HOWEVER, CALLING FOR A NEW OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION.

how do i know?Note how much thermite is used. The pot is about a liter, but how much thermite is that?

Stoichiometric thermite requires 2 moles of Al per 1 mole of Fe2O3

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

2 moles of Al weigh 54 g

1 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 160 g

density of Al=2.64 g/cc

density of Fe2O3=5.24 g/cc

54 grams of Al is equivalent to 20.5 cc of Al.

160g of Fe2O3 is equivalent to 30.5 cc of Fe2O3

Therefore, 51 cc of fully dense powder of 20.5 cc Al and 30.5 cc Fe2O3 weighs (54+160) g = 214 g.

A volume of 1000 cc would weigh (1000/51)*214 = 4.2 kg

For a powder packing density of 50%, the powder would weigh:

0.5*4.2 kg = 2.1 kg = 4.8 lb

That much just to burn a small hole in a small car engine. I bet it's even an aluminum block but lets say it isn't. How much do you think it would take to burn a massive core column? Then add enough to burn for 6 weeks! You see where we're going. You'd need tons.

Here's a Debunking911 Fun Fact!

How much mass would be required to produce molten iron from thermite equal to the same volume of molten aluminum droplets shown flowing from the south tower window:

A mole of Fe weighs 54 g. For every mole of Fe produced by thermite, one mole of Al and 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 is needed.

2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe

One mole of Al weighs 27 g. 0.5 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 80 g.

Therefore, (27 + 80) g = 107 g of Al and Fe2O3 is needed to produce 54 g of Fe.

That means the mass of the reactants to that of Fe produced is a ratio of 107/54 = 2. The mass of thermite reactants (Al, Fe2O3) is twice that of the molten iron produced.

Comparing the weight of molten aluminum droplets compared with iron:

Iron is 7.9 g/cc. Aluminum is 2.64 g/cc. Fe is denser than Al by a factor of 3. For the same volume of droplets, Fe would have three times the mass as Al.

To produce the iron from thermite requires a reactant mass that is a factor of 2 more than the iron produced. Also, Fe is 3 times as dense as Al. So, it would take 2*3 = 6 times as much mass to produce the same volume of molten iron droplets from thermite compared with molten aluminum droplets.

Example:

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.

Suppose 10 tons of molten aluminum fell from the south tower, about 1/8th of that available from the airplane. If it had been molten iron produced from thermite, 60 tons of thermite reactants would have to have been stored in Fuji Bank to produce the same volume spilling out of the south tower. The section of floor would have to hold all of that plus the aircraft.

*Amount of aluminum can be ascertained by counting the droplets and measuring their size compared to the known size of the window. It's not easy to get a good number on this. It's based on the number of slugs seen in video stills, their size relative to the window width which was about 22 inches, and the density of aluminum, assuming this was aluminum.

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magconda.htm

The weight of a gallon of aluminum is about 22.5 pounds. A hundred of these would already be 2250 lbs. A gallon size is not unlike the size of the slugs that were pouring out the window. Look at them relative to the window size. They look small at first, but when you realize how big the towers were, the slugs were fairly large. It must have been in the thousands of pounds.

Alex Jones, professional conspiracy theorist radio host, has said Jones found evidence of thermite. This isn't true. What Jones found was something which would have been in the debris pile anyway. Sulfur...

WTC Thermite

Sulfur

In Steven Jones' PDF "Answers to Objections and Questions", to support his claim for Sol-gels/Thermite he states:

"One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done,"

However when you look at the link he uses

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsai...page-right-area

You find out Mr. Jones edits out the VERY next line which states

"He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers."

Apparently, Jones felt this was not important enough for his readers to know.

Sloppy research or purposeful deception by the "scholars"? The evidence for one is growing...

Ive read plenty of books, objectively looking for some answers.

you should do the same and not listen to what you want to.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Krinkle, the fact is no one knows why the buildings fell at free fall speed, i.e., the speed of gravity(!). How is it possible for the roof of these buildings to hit the ground in 10 seconds? It would mean that there was no resistance at all despite the buildings only being hit near the middle floors and only damaging a few of the core columns! AND NO EXPLANATION FOR THE UNIVERSAL FREE FALL OF BUILDING 7 WHICH WAS NOT HIT BY A PLANE!!!

Professor Steven Jones himself does not say conclusively that thermite was used. In fact, he suggests that SUPERTHERMATE, a higher-powered compound used exclusively by the military was more likely.

In any event, the honest researchers are not making definitive statements about what happened. THEY ARE, HOWEVER, CALLING FOR A NEW OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION.

That is not evidence. nor is it proof. You cant even tell when the building stops falling because of the smoke and &#036;h&#33; flying everywhere. Some tapes show it taking roughly free fall speed but slightly more. I have more equations to prove it. From numerous places. Believe what you want just keep it out of here.

as far as im concerned i already wasted too much of my life.

take it somewhere else.

[buyacargetacheck]

No one disputes the time of fall. In fact, none other than the 9/11 Commission says 10 seconds http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm :

At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds, killing all civilians and emergency personnel inside, as well a number of individuals-both first responders and civilians-in the concourse, in the Marriott, and on neighboring streets.

That is not evidence. nor is it proof. You cant even tell when the building stops falling because of the smoke and &#036;h&#33; flying everywhere. Some tapes show it taking roughly free fall speed but slightly more. I have more equations to prove it. From numerous places. Believe what you want just keep it out of here.

as far as im concerned i already wasted too much of my life.

take it somewhere else.

[enzl]

No one disputes the time of fall. In fact, none other than the 9/11 Commission says 10 seconds http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm :

At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds, killing all civilians and emergency personnel inside, as well a number of individuals-both first responders and civilians-in the concourse, in the Marriott, and on neighboring streets.

Um. Not even worth it.

[Variance]

Yeah... Can we start talking about the trucks again...?

[bcs296]

Yeah... Can we start talking about the trucks again...?

Amen. That was quite possibly the most ridiculous argument, ever. Then you add in the fact it took place in a thread about trucks, and wow.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Amen. That was quite possibly the most ridiculous argument, ever. Then you add in the fact it took place in a thread about trucks, and wow.

Not really. The usual reason for the planned attack is to have a reason to fight a war in Iraq. This makes total sense because all the evidence points to Saddam Hussein as the culprit. no, wait thats not right. They go through al this trouble and dont even pin it on the right guy. Everything else is circustantial. The very fact this bull&#036;h&#33; story changes so many times is enough reason not to believe it. Once the lies re exposed they are reworked and fit into place with the delicacy of an hammer striking a nail. It is called the fruit loop.

Other reasons were because the buildings were old and this was the cheapest way to bring them down. --makes sense.

It makes sense to destroy downtown manhattan. It still has not recovered. It may not ever.

Its pointless. Everyone conspiracy theorist is an expert at telling you, you are wrong. and never provide ecidence just speculation, conjecture, falsehoods and downright lies.

the free-fall argument again is BS but will not die. The construction allowed the progression of collapse to fall in and about that time. FLoor after floor after floor. THe weight of each floor load increasing exponentially until it was hundred of thousands of pounds of rubbel and dead.

In the face of incontrovertable evidence and overwhelming facts only they know the real truth and the rest are too stupid to realize.

with that, this is the most ridiculous argument

but first dont forget: and dont forget

the JahBulOn worshipping plutocratic oligarchy do not really care which party naïve American sheep vote for. Or that 9/11 in year 01 of the new millennium and the invasion of Afghanistan (9/11 plus 600 hours) and Iraq (9/11 plus 555 days) had been planned many years in advance.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Um. Not even worth it.

I know. ITs really not. Computers and the internet really offer a nice a home for these types. Much better than the street corner.

I just think it really upsets the terrorist when they take the credit away from them. Shame.

Edited February 10, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

oh, right the most ridiculous argument.

Thanks to those neocon puppet rags.

The best outcome that we can hope for is that a sufficient number of our fellow citizens wake up to the fact that they are enslaved farmed cattle and they are not going to put up with the insulting cattle prod of blatant false-flag terrorism anymore. By believing anything that the Masonic farmers say in future about which group might have carried out the next false flag terrorism and for what political purpose. The Masonic Revolution in England was achieved quite subtly without the bloodshed of the Masonic American, French, Chinese and Russian revolutions. The Private Bank of England simply took over power from the King and Parliament by buying the power with their easily printed paper money. There certainly is some recourse to the tyranny of a small group of despots other than by a violent revolution. It is called a democratic bloodless velvet revolution whereby the mass of the people become sufficiently awake to no longer follow the orders of their despotic leaders, however much the puppeteers try to bribe, threaten and brainwash the police and army enforcers. This happened when the Berlin Wall fell. It is not a quick method of achieving results but patience has its virtues in evolution being much less destructive than revolution. Of course there will be no "public hearings" or admission of what really happened on 9/11 or 7/7 under the US or UK regimes. The ruling Masons in the UK make up about 1% of the population and can never let the proverbial cat out of the bag. Probably best if they do not as it is a particularly stinky cat. The power of this 1%, to rule 99%, is contingent on the 99% putting up with how the 1% behave. The ruling elite classes, in total, probably make up only 3% of the population, either under the Ancient Feudal social pyramid or under the post-Enlightenment Master/Slave social pyramid we see today. It is in the best interests of this other 2% of our ruling elite classes that they force the lunatic Lucifarian Masonic Masters out of political power quietly and it may well be that it is this 2% who are funding much of the 9/11+7/7 truth movement. The 9/11 and 7/7 truth movements do not want armed insurrection in either the UK or USA; they want a non-violent change in political direction away from lunacy, not towards an even greater lunacy of a violent revolution and of blood stained guillotines. We must not be anti-war so much as pro-peace. I would be happy if the US armed forces did not start new illegal wars against Syria and Iran for example, or if they did that the UK did not support the USA again. Our success may therefore be measured by a lack of eagerness for the people of the USA to be suckered again by another Tonkin Gulf (successful false pretext), USS Liberty (failed false pretext) or 9/11 (highly successful false pretext) for wars. We will never know how successful we have been in trying to wake other people up out of their hypnotic trance-like state, but it is our international duty to try to prevent crimes against humanity from continuing.

----------------------------- ------------------------ ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ -----------------

yup, thats it in a nutshell. Use your heads people. Its all BS

here is an example of a misquote. Take the time and read it. From a fireman that was misquoted by these pricks.

"If its the wingtv article its ********. They slandered me last year when I read them the riot act about their behavior.

The article" Fireman admits again 9-11 was an inside job" is slander.

The article written by randy lavello is also slander as he has me saying that woolsey former CIA Director Woolsey was passing a gag order down the rank and file of the FDNY. That statement was never made in that context, It was said in humor ,and as a matter of fact that so-called reporter was fired by Alex Jones for making **** up on alot of people. The only reason I didn't go through the legal channels is because lawyers cost to damn much.

So the true statement was the that I heard Explosions not bombs as I couldn't tell what the sounds were as I was blocks away and can not confirm what the noise was. As I was aproaching City Hall the North Tower began the collapse I heard what sounded like thunder just prior to the collapse then the Popping as the tower fell. I had my radio scanner and there were reports of explsions within the conplex over the PD and PAPD frequencies. As I made my way closer I could pick up on the FD Handie Talkie frequencies and it sounded like hell. No one new what the was going to happen next but when the second tower began its fall there were what sounded like loud popping coming from the tower as well as a sucking sound like reveres air pressure.

Its seems the people at 911Truth have some problems with credibility as I had approached them on this issue for clarification. No need to say they never returned my messages.

They are tools of the trade.

Take care

Paul "

Now in case people don't know Wingtv wrote up a fake article pertaining to me making inapropriate remarks about how "9-11 was an inside job and how the police and firemen knew it too"

I hope that at least people will grasp the truth from the extra LC footage including the "recut" which has even more footage that this will prove once and for all that Its BS.

By the way, The extra footage is taken out of sequence. Its all backwards.

If anyone like buyacargetalife needs some quotes, just leave your phone number. Il make sure you get plenty of quotes all day and night from all sorts of people that were actually there so you can be sure. Dont let this get diluted because of some crackpot whackos.

didnt think id get to use that again.

and ps the how and the why is the real red herring. while you are busy trying to prove this the real villains are getting away.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle