Some closure on W bodies

[AxelTheRed]

No more Hughes

No more EDS

No more Ross Perot

No more BOC/CPC

No more Delphi

No more Oldsmobile

No more plastic Saturns

and

when the last W falls off the assembly line after 20 years of production, the loss, of 20 points of marketshare, hundreds of thousands of jobs and billion of dollars -

The Roger Smith Era will finally be closed.

The Roger Smith era won't be closed until GM rectifies all the damage that old bastard caused. It'll be over when GM is healthy enough and has marketshare enough to keep its American plants and employ more workers. It will be over when the market cannibalism stops for good and the brands have their own proper identities again.

I'm throwing a party when that asshole croaks.

[Hudson]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but you had the following built on the GM10 (W-Body platform)...

In addition to the previously menioned Sintra and GL8 and Chinese Regal and LaCrosse, didn't you miss the Chevrolet Impala from your list?

[I hope GMRULES again]

The Roger Smith era won't be closed until GM rectifies all the damage that old bastard caused. It'll be over when GM is healthy enough and has marketshare enough to keep its American plants and employ more workers. It will be over when the market cannibalism stops for good and the brands have their own proper identities again.

I'm throwing a party when that asshole croaks.

Send me an invite, that's one party I don't want to miss. I don't think GM will ever recover fom the damage he did.

[bowtie_dude]

Won't see me shedding any tears. Not even crocodile ones.

[2000GPGT]

I've had 2 Grand Prix's over the years. A 1991 Grand Prix SE and a loaded 2000 Grand Prix GT with the HUD.

The 2000 Prix was one of my favorite cars and despite what anyone says, was extremely well built and never gave me a days worth of problems.

Hence the C&G name I picked................2000GPGT.

Here to the new RWD Grand Prix that will arrive in '08.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah know, people want to see GM suceed. But then they cry like babies when old, dated, outmoded cars are dropped. Do they think the real world misses the FWD Olds 98? {It was just a generic GM FWD car with Olds gingerbread, nothing at all like the classic 98's}

Some even miss the Corsica and boxy A bodies. And I am sure there is someone in Lordstown OH who swears the Vega was the best GM car ever, but so what?

95% of car buyers do not care about the 1970's "Glory Days" of GM's Personal Luxury cars, or their late 80's and 90s' blah FWD cars. How does living in the past compete in today's car business? The new Greek Letter platform are eons better than the Alphabet soup cars. And the Zeta will make people forget about the F body.

GM is in business to make $$ and sell to paying customers, not to cater to "hobbyists", "history buffs", and "I wish I was a teenager forever" types who never like to see cars go away naturally.

Well said. These are the same people who bitched and moaned when the Charger wa brought back as a sedan not a coupe. They were totally oblivious that it was a modern, tough, RWD, pwerful car that Dodge could actually make profits with. All they cared about is that it wasn't retro and had 2 doors too many. Of course, there are people who now complain that the Challenger is too retro...some people will never be happy.

[Drew Dowdell]

I see nothing wrong with the W-bodies for what they were in their day. My problem is with how long they've been around.

Of course, the only ones worth their salt were the Olds models. :AH-HA_wink:

[ehaase]

I think the first generation W's that debuted in 1988 were mediocre. I remember the first ones had only the 2.8L V6. If sedans had been ready at first, and if the cars had been better, the Camry may not have been so successful.

The second generation W's that debuted in 1995, 1997, and 1998 were the good ones, especially with the new styling and greater availability of the 3800's.

GM made a mistake not having the Epsilon wide available instead of using the W's again for the 2004, 2005, 2006 redesigns.

Now I just wonder when the Panthers will die.

[regfootball]

really, all that there is here to shed a tear about is how this is an example of GM letting a platform linger far too long. the platform itself isn't even worth the keystrokes we are typing about it.

This will always be an example of GM being tight asses that people ripping the company will always be able to point to as a shining example. Honestly, the damage and people's perceptions of GM for this type of thing will continue to linger for at least 10-20 more years, reagrdless of what they do from now on.

as far as the current grand prix. i like the wraparound design of the dash. but they f'ed up too much else about the car. cheap plastic. terrible center stack and controls. pancake roofline leading to claustrophobia. rear seat that's far too low and lacks leg room so its not usable as a family sedan. 4 speed automatics. dated v6 motors. huge front overhangs. ribbed taillights. ah, they just f'ed it up on so many levels. I like the car. It's just not practical or desirable because of its shortcomings far outweighing any positives it has. The G8 cannot arrive soon enough.

Edited February 3, 2007 by regfootball

[evok]

Are you saying that the Impala is dead by the end of the year as well?

My bad - I got caught up in the Roger Smith era ephoria. That will die in a couple years. So I have that much longer until I can celebrate.

[ketch]

GM used to have the best mid-size sedans, but GM let the old FWD A-bodies wither. The W-bodies were supposed to put GM back into the game and give Ford competition to the then-new Taurus, but then GM lost the mid-size market for good. They weren't bad cars at all, just a step behind the competition. Of the dozen or so W-bodies I've driven over the years, I found the last Regals to be the most agreeable. They had understated style, drove well, and were comfortable. I never had the chance to drive the Intrigue, but I imagine I would have liked it. On the other hand, I feel the G-bodies are much more substantial cars for just a little bit more money.

Actually, the Intrigue was consider one of the best in class early on. read the road tests for ref. Ya, I'm biased- I bought one.

[ketch]

It seems that the W-bodies are notorious for strut mounts and bearings and intermediate steering shaft failures. Litterally everyone that has owned one has had these issues with them. Depending on how many miles are on your car you may want to take your current car in for service to see if they will clear up some of these issues if the warrenty is still valid. I took my 1998 in and for around $100.00 lubed the ISS shaft which cleared up a lot of front end noises, clunks and looseness in the steering. Any good service station should be able to install struts for a reasonable sum if your warrenty is out.

I lube the ISS myself monthly for less than a buck and 5 minutes time. You'd also be wrong by saying 'Literally everyone"...

[ketch]

I'm not that sad to see them go. None of the current cars I care much for. The Impala is probably the best IMO...it has the least awkward proportions I think. The platform is pretty ancient, so it's nice to see it replaced by the RWD Zeta. But hey, at least GM is doing something about their old platforms. Can't say the same about Ford.

Actually they updated the W pretty well. Ya, I'd rather have the boring Camry over an Imp LTS or SS any day. LOL

Ditto the Lacross Super.

Edited February 3, 2007 by ketch

[trinacriabob]

Actually, the Intrigue was consider one of the best in class early on. read the road tests for ref. Ya, I'm biased- I bought one.

I think the Intrigue was, and still is, the most successful W-body. Automotive reviews were generally flattering. Equipped correctly, it is a timeless beauty.

I think the W-body morphed fairly well. Most patrons have had great service from them. My 1992 Regal stands at 232,210 miles today. (I think I will go for the 250,000 mile mark while still purchasing a new car). The Regal coupe (1988-1996) was also a decent looking car and, it too, improved...starting out with the undesirable raspy and underpowered 2.8 litre V6 and then introducing the 3800 V6 two years later as an option for that car.

I don't think this has so much to do with Roger Smith, as much as I think he lacked vision....he came from the bean-counting side of the house and was not tied into the design and technology side of GM. The W-body was the response at the time and the trio of coupes probably came first because the W-body was the "contemporary" response to the RWD opera-windowed nameplates that preceded them through 1987 and were also dearly loved.

In fact, the Taurus at which the W-bodies were aimed only "expired" last year, having had one in Pensacola last June as a rental. I think the black eye isn't from the W-bodies. It was from the poor reliability, bad timing and lack of focus found in many of the other lines, particularly during the 1980s.

Edited February 3, 2007 by trinacriabob

[hyperv6]

As have owned a 1990 GP and 2004 I can say to compare the first with the last is not a fair thing to do.

The first car was ok but never a real market leading car. It was under powered, too heavy and poor quality.

As for the present car I was not a fan but the wife wanted one. The more miles I have behind the wheel the more I love this car. If the interior was upgraded in the area of plastics it would be a fine car. Quality has not been a issue and it drive and handles great for a FWD car.

Also you can't compare a GT to a Comp G or a GXP as they may be based on the same car but are two different cars all together.

As for styling I have no issue with it and have been stopped by many to ask what kind of car it is. The key in the looks department are the SPO wing and 5 spoke Chrome 17" wheels that fill the wheel wells. This is not my opinion but what many people have pointed out to me as to why they like my car and not many other GP's. I do agree with them and that is why I did buy the GP I have, also I got it for less than a G6.

It is the details that make a difference in styling and GM needs to address these details in future models. If you can make a base car look loaded you going to sell a lot of cars. If the base car look like it is from a Enterprise lot no one will buy at any price.

It is a shame the W we have today was not the car we could have had in 1990. It's time has come and gone and let it RIP. At least in the case of the GP it did it's job over the years.

FYI: I am hearing the Monte is dead as of March. The lack of one at Detroits show was very telling with the GXP sitting in the Pontiac display.

[knightfan26917]

Well said. These are the same people who bitched and moaned when the Charger wa brought back as a sedan not a coupe. They were totally oblivious that it was a modern, tough, RWD, pwerful car that Dodge could actually make profits with. All they cared about is that it wasn't retro and had 2 doors too many.

*nods*

Yeah, I noticed this, too. Ironically (imho, of course), some of the ones that were "disowning" the new Charger ... have no problem with the 1995+ "monte carlo" or the 2000+ "impala".

*rolls eyes*

I'd much rather have 4-door and RWD and V8 than FWD and V6.....

Oh, and the news about the Monte Carlo being gone ... that news is 20 years old.........

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[daves87rs]

Yep, Hyperv6, looks like the Monte is gone in march. (prob heard it from me )

Many of the local dealerships have told me the that they will not be ordering any new Montes, as they are struggling to sell the

07s (and some 06s) that they have on the lots now....

Also, the rebates should jump on them with the next month (or two) Should be a good time to get one if you were thinking about one...

I'm thinking many of the last GPs will go fleet....

[daves87rs]

*nods*

Yeah, I noticed this, too. Ironically (imho, of course), some of the ones that were "disowning" the new Charger ... have no problem with the 1995+ "monte carlo" or the 2000+ "impala".

*rolls eyes*

I'd much rather have 4-door and RWD and V8 than FWD and V6.....

Oh, and the news about the Monte Carlo being gone ... that news is 20 years old.........

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Yep.

[knightfan26917]

Many of the local dealerships have told me the that they will not be ordering any new Montes, as they are struggling to sell the 07s (and some 06s) that they have on the lots now....

Also, the rebates should jump on them with the next month (or two) Should be a good time to get one if you were thinking about one...

Will be interesting to see how high those rebates go, especially since they are having a tough time selling the ones on the lots now.....

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Never compromise what's right" ... Aaron Tippin ... 'You've Got To Stand For Something (Or You'll Fall For Anything)'

[ponchoman49]

I lube the ISS myself monthly for less than a buck and 5 minutes time. You'd also be wrong by saying 'Literally everyone"...

When I say litterally everyone, I meant everyone that writes in on the online forums, everyone that I have owned, everyone that my friends and family or co workers have owned. There are many TSB's for these items. It is such an epidemic on the W-bodies that most shops in my area carry the lube kit and updated seal and average 5-10 of these cars per day. ISS shafts are to W-bodies as intake failures are to 3100, 3400 and 3800's. I have even driven the new style Grand Prix with the dreaded clunky steering that feels loose when turning ie; ISS trouble. Thank goodness GM finally fixed the intake problems on the series III 3800's.

[hyperv6]

When I say litterally everyone, I meant everyone that writes in on the online forums, everyone that I have owned, everyone that my friends and family or co workers have owned. There are many TSB's for these items. It is such an epidemic on the W-bodies that most shops in my area carry the lube kit and updated seal and average 5-10 of these cars per day. ISS shafts are to W-bodies as intake failures are to 3100, 3400 and 3800's. I have even driven the new style Grand Prix with the dreaded clunky steering that feels loose when turning ie; ISS trouble. Thank goodness GM finally fixed the intake problems on the series III 3800's.

The ISS is a problem and I also have driven several of the new W bodies with this very problem.

I can fix it myself but few in the average public can do it and it does little for good will after warranty.

[cfch3399]

I'll miss the GP. In supercharged form it's a fun car and at no point do I find myself wishing for 2 more gears or for a DOHC engine. The interior, too, is by itself perfectly fine, the location of the ignition is great, unlike the G8's steering column location, everything is easily visible and intuititive to use. Because it does have some unique features it does make you feel like your car and not like some generic car where everything looks the same and works the same.

I find the design great inside and out. It does look like nothing else on the road, unlike the G8 which is a mix of old BMW 3 and Galant. Perhaps it looks more than what it really delivers, while the G8 definetly underwhelms, at least in pictures, to what it should deliver.

[The O.C.]

Actually they updated the W pretty well. Ya, I'd rather have the boring Camry over an Imp LTS or SS any day. LOL

Ditto the Lacross Super.

I'd actually rather have a Camry SE V6 than an Impala LTZ or SS.......

(But it can be reasoned that for roughly $30K, I'd rather have a BMW 328i sedan, base model with leatherette, than either....)

[ssmontecarlo3800]

I lube the ISS myself monthly for less than a buck and 5 minutes time. You'd also be wrong by saying 'Literally everyone"...

Please tell about how you do this and what equipment you need. Thanks.

[The O.C.]

I'll miss the GP. In supercharged form it's a fun car and at no point do I find myself wishing for 2 more gears or for a DOHC engine. The interior, too, is by itself perfectly fine, the location of the ignition is great, unlike the G8's steering column location, everything is easily visible and intuititive to use. Because it does have some unique features it does make you feel like your car and not like some generic car where everything looks the same and works the same.

I find the design great inside and out. It does look like nothing else on the road, unlike the G8 which is a mix of old BMW 3 and Galant. Perhaps it looks more than what it really delivers, while the G8 definetly underwhelms, at least in pictures, to what it should deliver.

I used to be a big 3800 SC fan......but now after having my CTS, I much prefer the HF 3.6L's power delivery and smoothness. It's got about the same horsepower (252hp versus 240 - 260) but with less torque.

However, the 3.6L is SO much more pleasant from a NVH standpoint, and the way it likes to rev (compared to the SC 3800) makes it much more enjoyable to me.

I might not win an outright dragrace compared to a new Grand Prix GT with the 3800SC, but I won't be far behind (0-60 in 6.6 for GP, versus 6.9 for CTS according to buff mags) but I'll be enjoying a WAY more refined, up-to-date, and engaging powertrain. The 3.6L HF is a great vision for GM's future V6 powertrain applications.

[mrblackwell17]

I'm going to miss the Monte Carlo...one of the few that will. My 95 is pushing 175K and still runs strong and I only have basic maintenance costs in it.

I am probably one of the few that enjoy the two door mid-size coupe and my options for replacing my ride are falling by the wayside.

Maybe I will just take advantage of all the one's sitting around on the lots if the rebates and incentives would help me buy some suitable replacement wheels for an SS Monte.

[Sixty8panther]

I am probably one of the few that enjoy the two door mid-size coupe and my options for replacing my ride are falling by the wayside.

What is the matter with the 5th g. Camaro?

[Satty]

What is the matter with the 5th g. Camaro?

The fact that it wont be on lots or another year or two, and chances are it'll sell for a premium when it is released, dealer markups will probably be an issue the first year or two, then once the diehards get theirs the rest of the population will be able to get them for sticker.

[trinacriabob]

I am probably one of the few that enjoy the two door mid-size coupe and my options for replacing my ride are falling by the wayside.

Maybe I will just take advantage of all the one's sitting around on the lots if the rebates and incentives would help me buy some suitable replacement wheels for an SS Monte.

No, sir, you are not alone. This is my favorite genre of car...the mid to full size personal luxury coupe. I don't think any domestic manufacturer offers one anymore, so my choices are also narrowed.

[Sixty8panther]

I was not thining in terms of immediate future.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

The W-Bodies are nice cars (particularly the Impala, and I can't deny the Grand Prix's individualism), but they are all past their prime and it is time to go. I just hope when the 2010 LaCrosse Epsilon (I or II is it?), that it will give the Lexus ES350 a run for its money-as in actually having comparable polish, styling (Signia/LaCrosse/Cielo/Velite concepts), and performance so Buick can have purpose, and a reason to exist along with the similar Saturn Aura. Grand Prix-while G8's not ideal in styling (but better than I'd expected, and a very complete package as far as drivetrain/equipment goes so far), Grand Prix still is a staple of the Pontiac lineup. For Monte Carlo, I'd like to see a Malibu Coupe replace it on one end, and a Monte Carlo Zeta on the other, in an ideal world. And Impala, bring it forward as a rear or all (yes, all-Charger has it too)-wheel-drive, 5-6-passenger large sedan (and wagon). And there you have it. Grand Prix has by far the best GM steering wheel, and while the cockpit-style dash is nice, it probably could've been executed better, and its styling is inferior to the modern classic 1997-2003 models.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I will personally miss the W cars. They were classified as Mid/Lux by GM. I had a 97 Grand Prix GT, 98 Grand Prix GTP, 2002 Grand Prix GT, and now a 2005 Grand Prix GT. All were/is great cars and had little to no issues. Since I work at both GM (Delaware) & Opel (Germany), I worry that the G8 being a heavier car with a bigger V8 engine, that these cars will languish on the dealer lots much like the last generation GTO did should fuel prices rise above 3 bucks again. So I will either buy a V6 2008 Cadillac CTS or perhaps one last Grand Prix most likely the GXP so I can have a collector car to tool around in.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Pontiac-Custom-S

[daves87rs]

I will personally miss the W cars. They were classified as Mid/Lux by GM. I had a 97 Grand Prix GT, 98 Grand Prix GTP, 2002 Grand Prix GT, and now a 2005 Grand Prix GT. All were/is great cars and had little to no issues. Since I work at both GM (Delaware) & Opel (Germany), I worry that the G8 being a heavier car with a bigger V8 engine, that these cars will languish on the dealer lots much like the last generation GTO did should fuel prices rise above 3 bucks again. So I will either by a V6 2008 Cadillac CTS or perhaps one last Grand Prix most likely the GXP so I can have a collector car to tool around in.

I love that pic!

I may have to settle for a used GP...

[2005 EquinoxLS]

Well you know theres people that think they need a V8 RWD even with gas at the price it has been. I had one W-Body. The 2000 Mone Carlo and I really liked it. It never got less than 22 miles to the gallon in the city and always got more than 31 miles to the gallon on the highway. Roomy and quiet and a very nice riding highway car. I think the new G8 may have more of a chance than the GTO did simply since it is a 4-door rather than a 2-door. That alone will make it more likable for a lot people. I just wonder if everyone will want a V8 RWD? Time will tell.

Edited February 12, 2007 by 2005 EquinoxLS

[Oracle of Delphi]

I love that pic!

I may have to settle for a used GP...

What pic?

[bcs296]

I will personally miss the W cars. They were classified as Mid/Lux by GM. I had a 97 Grand Prix GT, 98 Grand Prix GTP, 2002 Grand Prix GT, and now a 2005 Grand Prix GT. All were/is great cars and had little to no issues. Since I work at both GM (Delaware) & Opel (Germany), I worry that the G8 being a heavier car with a bigger V8 engine, that these cars will languish on the dealer lots much like the last generation GTO did should fuel prices rise above 3 bucks again. So I will either buy a V6 2008 Cadillac CTS or perhaps one last Grand Prix most likely the GXP so I can have a collector car to tool around in.

It's not fair to assume that the G8 GT is going to have poor gas mileage simply because it has a V8. The LS based engines have always been very fuel efficient in car applications (6 speed LS1 F-bodies had no problem hitting nearly 30mpg on the highway). Considering that the variant in the G8 will have AFM and use either a 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic, I would bet it will get at least very high teens in the city and mid to high 20's on the highway. That's not too far off from a 2005 GP GT's 20/30 rating.

If potential buyers can't handle the V8's mileage, let's not forget that the G8 is going to available with the 3.6.

The last GTO was a dud because it's styling didn't live up to it's name, not because it was RWD and had a V8. Those were the redeeming factors that sold them at all.

Well you know theres people that think they need a V8 RWD even with gas at the price it has been. I had one W-Body. The 2000 Mone Carlo and I really liked it. It never got less than 22 miles to the gallon in the city and always got more than 31 miles to the gallon on the highway. Roomy and quiet and a very nice riding highway car. I think the new G8 may have more of a chance than the GTO did simply since it is a 4-door rather than a 2-door. That alone will make it more likable for a lot people. I just wonder if everyone will want a V8 RWD? Time will tell.

I'm not so sure it is a matter of whether or not people want a V8 RWD car but more a matter of FWD being dead. Time has already told. Nobody can argue the success of the 300/Charger/Magnum, but on the other hand, nobody can attribute the success SOLELY to the fact that these cars are RWD. The styling and uniqueness of these cars is what sold them BUT they never would have been as successful as they are without RWD and an available Hemi.

RWD alone isn't going to save GM's cars. RWD in a stylish package with features that people want (and an optional V8) all at an reasonable price is guaranteed to.

[Sixty8panther]

RWD alone isn't going to save GM's cars. RWD in a stylish package with features that people want (and an optional V8) all at an reasonable price is guaranteed to.

Very True!

Don't forget a true manual trans. available.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It's not fair to assume that the G8 GT is going to have poor gas mileage simply because it has a V8. The LS based engines have always been very fuel efficient in car applications (6 speed LS1 F-bodies had no problem hitting nearly 30mpg on the highway). Considering that the variant in the G8 will have AFM and use either a 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic, I would bet it will get at least very high teens in the city and mid to high 20's on the highway. That's not too far off from a 2005 GP GT's 20/30 rating.

If potential buyers can't handle the V8's mileage, let's not forget that the G8 is going to available with the 3.6.

The last GTO was a dud because it's styling didn't live up to it's name, not because it was RWD and had a V8. Those were the redeeming factors that sold them at all.

I'm not so sure it is a matter of whether or not people want a V8 RWD car but more a matter of FWD being dead. Time has already told. Nobody can argue the success of the 300/Charger/Magnum, but on the other hand, nobody can attribute the success SOLELY to the fact that these cars are RWD. The styling and uniqueness of these cars is what sold them BUT they never would have been as successful as they are without RWD and an available Hemi.

RWD alone isn't going to save GM's cars. RWD in a stylish package with features that people want (and an optional V8) all at an reasonable price is guaranteed to.

You're forgetting one very important fact, this car weighs 4000 pounds, that coupled with the V8 does not bode well for MPG. IMHO.

[bcs296]

The Impala SS weighs 3800 and has a 4 speed. It still gets 18/28.

For years, the G-bodies have been ~4000 lbs and getting mid-high 20's on the highway.

All I'm saying is that it's possible the GT could get good mileage for what it is--but then again, it might get crappy mileage like you say.

A 17/25 rating hasn't stopped the 300C from moving off the lots.

We'll just have to wait and see how much of a guzzler this L76 is. There's always the V6. I'll be interested to see how that performs.

[The O.C.]

The Impala SS weighs 3800 and has a 4 speed. It still gets 18/28.

For years, the G-bodies have been ~4000 lbs and getting mid-high 20's on the highway.

All I'm saying is that it's possible the GT could get good mileage for what it is--but then again, it might get crappy mileage like you say.

A 17/25 rating hasn't stopped the 300C from moving off the lots.

We'll just have to wait and see how much of a guzzler this L76 is. There's always the V6. I'll be interested to see how that performs.

I don't think people will mind the overall fuel economy......but don't look for either engine to be spectacular in that heavy of a car.

[Flybrian]

The Impala SS weighs 3800 and has a 4 speed. It still gets 18/28.

For years, the G-bodies have been ~4000 lbs and getting mid-high 20's on the highway.

280lb-ft of torque through a 4-speed HydraMatic is a supercharged Bonneville makes you forget about its 3800lbs. Nevermind the mid-20s for fuel economy.

I think the 6.0l will surprise many in overall performance.

[bcs296]

280lb-ft of torque through a 4-speed HydraMatic is a supercharged Bonneville makes you forget about its 3800lbs. Nevermind the mid-20s for fuel economy.

Exactly... and that's not even the 5.3 V8 in the SS.

I think the 6.0l will surprise many in overall performance.

That's why I'm remaining optimistic. Good mileage in a heavy, powerful car isn't something that's never been done before. Add a torque-biased engine with AFM and a 6 speed auto and it looks promising.

Edited February 14, 2007 by bcs296

[SS427]

In addition to the previously menioned Sintra and GL8 and Chinese Regal and LaCrosse, didn't you miss the Chevrolet Impala from your list?

Holy $h! I did OOPS, and I goofed on the Cutlass Convertable also, but what can ya say I did that list all from memory.

Edited March 31, 2007 by SS427

[ShadowDog]

I still miss my white '95 Monte Carlo Z34, perfectly matched with unique, white, rolling 5-spokes and red emblems. With its blacked out greenhouse and clean lines, it turned plenty of heads my direction. Performance was what you'd expect from that era, but not bad at over 200 HP from a reasonably mileage-thrifty DOHC (when you wanted it to be).

Tearing through the mountain roads of south-east British Columbia made it one of the most comfortable and assuring cars I've ever driven. It did well to keep pace on the twisties with the same era M3 that a friend owned. We were both quite surprised with its ability. Sure, plenty could have been done to make it better, but it wasn't bad just as it was. Even now, after it was destroyed back in 2004, I frown and my wife pats my head when I see one go by...especially a white Z with matching wheels.

As much as the cars appealed me, they've seen better days. Used lots and cheap transportation is what they basically are now. Sure, there are a WHOLE LOT of gear-heads and those with infectious pride in their W's (especially the GPs), but the enthusiasm for most decent passenger vehicles eventually withers.

Asked how I feel about the car disappearing? *shrug* <-- it had a good run. It was what it was and many people continue to appreciate its reliability for general transportation.

[occupant]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'll take a front-drive A-body (82-96) before any other FWD car. The Celebrity was only made through 1987 in coupe, 1989 in sedan, and 1990 in wagon form, but they are simple, comfortable, and efficient with the 4-cylinder. I only wish they had kept making the Celebrity long enough to put the 2.2L Cavalier engine in it like GM did with the Century and Ciera. I'm considering all kinds of motors for my 1989 Celebrity sedan. A Cavalier 2.2 is one of them. EPA ratings on the 2.5 in 1989 were 23 city, 30 highway. EPA ratings on the 2.2 in a 1995 Century were 25 city, 32 highway. And that's for a Century with airbag, antilock brakes, tilt, cruise, power windows and locks and seat recliners, and more. I'm sure my stripped down (AC, radio, and defrost only) Celebrity could do even better, maybe 27/34 or so.

The Century has to be my favorite, though. Mostly because of the flat dashboard which provides excellent visibility, and allows me to reach onto the passenger floorboard to pick up whatever fell off during my last panic stop without putting my head below dash level. I also like the map light on the dash, the console armrest with cupholders (although they break off easily and are impossible to find in junkyards), and the '88 models have the newer steering wheel and the older square roofline so it's my favorite year. It was also the last year for silver brushed trim on the dashboard on Custom models.

I'll take an '88 4-cylinder Century sedan over any W-body or darn near any other car, save for Torinos and Cutlasses and other 70s intermediates.

Lumina is the best W-body to me, mostly for the large rear door openings, spacious trunk, 6-passenger seating, and great controls placement.