Letter to GM from Edmonds.com president

[Camino LS6]

Like Camino said, I have the heading of the email and who it came from. There is more to the email and was asked not to post anything else. I have to respect my source... in other words, I don't want to bite that hand that feeds me. This is no "friend of a friend of a friend who heard that blah blah blah". The guy got the email, sent from a "upper" person at GM with a short last name (that's as far as I'll go) and sent it to me. All info I've posted on this site came true, I have yet to post any "rumors". I posted about a convertable Camaro already being complete at the time of the Camaro coupe release a year ago, I posted about a Silverado SS with "427" badges on it several months before it was released at SEMA. I posted about the silverado haveing body moldings within the fenders when camo's spy shots were just starting to pop up.

How much of the conversation with the Honda exec is true I can't tell you, I can only say that the email is real, and was also confirmed by another person in this topic on the 2nd page.

If I knew this post was going to create so much contraversy I wouldn't have even posted it.

BuddyP, we all appreciate the info you bring to us and respect your position in this entirely. Please, don't let a noob's overzealous reaction prevent you from posting things like this in the future.

[Intrepidation]

BuddyP, we all appreciate the info you bring to us and respect your position in this entirely. Please, don't let a noob's overzealous reaction prevent you from posting things like this in the future.

Yeah man, don't stop posting these things because of some n00b. The rest of us value you it and know that you wouldn't post BS.

[A Horse With No Name]

This is just like a guy i work with said he saw a japanese kid driving a Supercharged Cobalt SS.....I told him You will never see that happen.

Too bad. The Cobalt SS is a great car...and I am thinking about one as a DD for my wife next year when we get a new car.

As for the asian kid in the story...Just more Si's that will see the Cobalt's two sets of round taillights.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

...also...thanks for the info.

Chris

[BB_454]

Heh I never knew the owners had all those cars, much less were Japanese. I need to stop by there and become buddy buddy with them

Not 100% on if their Japanese, but defiantly Asian. I used to work their for a few months.

[A Horse With No Name]

Umm. It's a Camaro. GM should be putting that kind of exceptional effort to make it great.

Let's not have 'em break an arm patting themselves on the back, yet.

When marketshare rises, then they'll be worried. Until then, GM's renaissance is in it's infancy.

Actually...I might get flamed for this but here goes. My concept of a great G.M. is a smaller company that builds really great premium vehicles at a real profit and gets loyal customers for life. They make a whole lot more on one CTS or Z-06 or H-2 than they do on a Cobalt or an Ion.

Part of being profitable is doing things that otyhers aren't. Spending huge effort to compete in overcrowded segments may not be the most profitable thing for G.M.

Chris

BTW, Part of the cool thing about this being in its infancy is that we are around to watch it happen from the start.

[BuddyP]

BuddyP, we all appreciate the info you bring to us and respect your position in this entirely. Please, don't let a noob's overzealous reaction prevent you from posting things like this in the future.

Sorry, guess I was a little cranky the other night LOL! I don't get a ton of info from the guy, but do get a bone thrown to me from time to time and will continue to post what I'm able to.

[Flybrian]

Please continue to share any info you wish to, BuddyP! You did nothing wrong by posting and we appreciate it all the way.

[-Camaro-]

No matter how good BuddyP says a friend of his says someone at his office says one of the GM exec says Jeremy Anwyl says Michelle Krebs's paraphrases some namelss Honda exec says GM's "surfaces" are, I just can't see Honda being "worried as hell" about the Acadia, Outlook, etc. Let alone say it in public.

I would like to know exactly what GM is doing to their "surfaces" that the Japanese are so in awe of but absolutely refuse even to try.

BuddyP, can you get the header information from the email? Perhaps there is some information in there that could trace it back.

It was an employee, not Honda who said that...

[toyoguy]

why would a Japanese exec bother speaking English anyways.

[FAPTurbo]

why would a Japanese exec bother speaking English anyways.

It IS the language of business...

Maybe there were Honda of Europe, or Honda of America officials around... who knows...

[GXT]

Like Camino said, I have the heading of the email and who it came from. There is more to the email and was asked not to post anything else. I have to respect my source... in other words, I don't want to bite that hand that feeds me. This is no "friend of a friend of a friend who heard that blah blah blah". The guy got the email, sent from a "upper" person at GM with a short last name (that's as far as I'll go) and sent it to me. All info I've posted on this site came true, I have yet to post any "rumors". I posted about a convertable Camaro already being complete at the time of the Camaro coupe release a year ago, I posted about a Silverado SS with "427" badges on it several months before it was released at SEMA. I posted about the silverado haveing body moldings within the fenders when camo's spy shots were just starting to pop up.

How much of the conversation with the Honda exec is true I can't tell you, I can only say that the email is real, and was also confirmed by another person in this topic on the 2nd page.

If I knew this post was going to create so much contraversy I wouldn't have even posted it.

I think we all appreciate the information. You presented the nature of it clearly. I think you understand that we all have a right to give differing levels of credibility to it.

To those who called me a noob for uestioningly a "he said she said" email... perhaps after some experience I will "learn" to give the benefit of the doubt to questionable information with a certain slant, and to automatically bash organizations, technologies, news, etc. that leans the other way. Something to aspire to.

[Intrepidation]

I think we all appreciate the information. You presented the nature of it clearly. I think you understand that we all have a right to give differing levels of credibility to it.

To those who called me a noob for uestioningly a "he said she said" email... perhaps after some experience I will "learn" to give the benefit of the doubt to questionable information with a certain slant, and to automatically bash organizations, technologies, news, etc. that leans the other way. Something to aspire to.

Well considering you bashed the Volt already and critize GM on most every post I've seen so far, I guess you're part way there.

[G. David Felt]

The New Arcadia and other crossovers are nice, but after seeing the GMC product line at the Seattle Boat show, I was surprised to see a fully loaded Arcadia is 45K and they had a nicely equiped Yukon for 45K. IMO I would take the Yukon, I do not see giving up the space and comfort level for something so small. IMO

[AAS]

The New Arcadia and other crossovers are nice, but after seeing the GMC product line at the Seattle Boat show, I was surprised to see a fully loaded Arcadia is 45K and they had a nicely equiped Yukon for 45K. IMO I would take the Yukon, I do not see giving up the space and comfort level for something so small. IMO

It's Acadia (not Arcadia)... Aside from the width of the new crossovers and a shallow/low 2nd row, the Acadia feels more spacious than a Yukon with a third row.

[siegen]

The New Arcadia and other crossovers are nice, but after seeing the GMC product line at the Seattle Boat show, I was surprised to see a fully loaded Arcadia is 45K and they had a nicely equiped Yukon for 45K. IMO I would take the Yukon, I do not see giving up the space and comfort level for something so small. IMO

GM had a booth at the boat show? I guess it makes sense considering the number of Merc/Volvo 262 and 350 engines they supply. I didn't go to setup this year, but I may stop by one of the days, just have to get a pass. Lol, Arcadia, that must be the techno version, which comes with a built in PS3 and popup LCD's, right? :AH-HA_wink:

[Flybrian]

Arcadia is also a town here in Central Florida. Believe me, you don't want anything associated with it.

[haypops]

GM had a booth at the boat show? I guess it makes sense considering the number of Merc/Volvo 262 and 350 engines they supply. I

GM marine

For more than 40 years, GM has been a leader in marine engines. Its first official entry into the marine market was in 1958 with a 284-cid, 185-hp Chevrolet engine. In 1960, a group was formed within GM to fully support marine original equipment manufacturers (OEMs). Today, GM Powertrain supplies a wide array of engines to several marine OEMs

<snip>

[JBsZ06]

I can't wait till they get a load of Pontiac's new 4 door rwd 400hp under 30 grand thats going to kick the accords @ss!

JMO

[siegen]

GM marine

For more than 40 years, GM has been a leader in marine engines. Its first official entry into the marine market was in 1958 with a 284-cid, 185-hp Chevrolet engine. In 1960, a group was formed within GM to fully support marine original equipment manufacturers (OEMs). Today, GM Powertrain supplies a wide array of engines to several marine OEMs

<snip>

Yeh I know, I work on them every day :AH-HA_wink: (well the transmissions in particular, but engines occasionally). I was just surprised they would have automobiles there.

[GXT]

Well considering you bashed the Volt already and critize GM on most every post I've seen so far, I guess you're part way there.

I pointed out that I liked the concept of the Volt but currently it is essentially only a theory.

I got bashed for pointing out that a vague "she said he said" email is of questionable validity.

To me, both points are so obvious I shouldn't have had to have made them (let alone justify them to you afterwards). And maybe I shouldn't have, but some of the non-noobs seemed to be organizing parties to celebrate this email and welcoming the Volt as the second coming.

[Camino LS6]

I pointed out that I liked the concept of the Volt but currently it is essentially only a theory.

I got bashed for pointing out that a vague "she said he said" email is of questionable validity.

To me, both points are so obvious I shouldn't have had to have made them (let alone justify them to you afterwards). And maybe I shouldn't have, but some of the non-noobs seemed to be organizing parties to celebrate this email and welcoming the Volt as the second coming.

No offense intended, but you should spend a little more time getting to know the folks on this board before indicting them. The e-mail in question exists and the circumstances have been explained to you. A great many folks on this board are employed directly or indirectly by GM, or have industry connections as well as an established credibility here. Once you get to know who they are you might not be so quick to judge. Know the sources and you will have a more complete perspective on the information.

As for the Volt, to call it mere theory doesn't do it justice. If you've read enough about it, you should already know that.

Take some time and get to know this site and its members a bit better and I think you will come to understand the situation a bit more clearly.

[evok]

I pointed out that I liked the concept of the Volt but currently it is essentially only a theory.

I got bashed for pointing out that a vague "she said he said" email is of questionable validity.

To me, both points are so obvious I shouldn't have had to have made them (let alone justify them to you afterwards). And maybe I shouldn't have, but some of the non-noobs seemed to be organizing parties to celebrate this email and welcoming the Volt as the second coming.

Ignor the cheerleaders - many forget the motto of the site contains the word critic.

I read a number of your posts and thought they were a fair critique.

Edited January 31, 2007 by evok

[enzl]

No offense intended, but you should spend a little more time getting to know the folks on this board before indicting them. The e-mail in question exists and the circumstances have been explained to you. A great many folks on this board are employed directly or indirectly by GM, or have industry connections as well as an established credibility here. Once you get to know who they are you might not be so quick to judge. Know the sources and you will have a more complete perspective on the information.

As for the Volt, to call it mere theory doesn't do it justice. If you've read enough about it, you should already know that.

Take some time and get to know this site and its members a bit better and I think you will come to understand the situation a bit more clearly.

I've gotta agree with GXP....that supposed comment regarding a Honda exec is a perfect example of just how desperate some people here are to get good news...Ironically, I don't doubt that the Lambda trips are a better effort than the next Pilot....they should be. The fact that somehow this fact/opinion is made more likely by some e-mail evidence of somebody else's conversation strains credibility and really, if used by the 'import humpers' to further a point would be shot down immediately.

As for the Volt, its a handsome machine that hopefully has a future....Toyota will be out with a Generation 3 Prius before long....the Volt is doomed to be a pretty 'what if'...the Prius is currently available & certain to have a serious hardware upgrade shortly.

Just my .02...I think the pessimism is valid.

[Intrepidation]

My problem with GXT's post from teh Volkt thread stem from this post:

I don't want to be critical of GM on this because I think it is a great idea. But let's not overstate what this is.

I mean really, what did they do? They created an ugly, empty concept that even they admit they can't reasonably build. I did the same thing, but my prototype travels in time using garbage as fuel. It looks better too. Top speed is well over 88MPH.

The only reason GM had to do this is because they have missed the boat so badly with REAL product and they are taking a PR and tech beating for it. If they actually beat Toyota/Honda to market cars based on this idea THEN they can get some credit. Right now it is just an idea that probably all other manufacturers have left in the lab (which is where it belongs at this time).

And, like I replied, how can you bash them for "missing the boat" when they've been the leader in Fuel Cell development, they have more vehicles that run on E85 Ethanol than anyone else (which seems to the latest crazy among the fuel conscious), they produced the EV1, and in the hybrid department, have teh Vue, Aura, and upcoming Malibu hybrids, as well as the first application of a hybrid powertrain in a large SUV (the Tahoe).

--

But back to the subject at hand. I know email itself is real, although it's content may not true to actual circumstances. The poster is not a liar here, and that is the main issue we seem to have. At any rate, I can see Honda being troubled by the Lambadas, but I would think it's Toyota who would have the most to worry about and the most to loose. As far as I know, Honda doesn't have a desire to be #1, Toyota on the other hand, does. If the new Highlander isn't as good as the Lambadas they stand to loose sales to them, and hinder their plans for "world domination". I would think, if anything, this comment would have come from a Toyota exec, not a Honda one. Just a thought.

[Camino LS6]

...and the naysayers club chimes in. Time to do a little recruiting,eh? Or just can't resist an opportunity to add a negative twist?

1. The e-mail is real and has been confirmed

2. The question of the Honda exec making the statement should be asked of Edmunds, as they are the source, not GM.

3. The members who posted/confirmed the e-mail should not be discredited by idle pessimism as they are known and credible sources. To suggest otherwise borders on offensive.

4. For a GM exec to forward the e-mail from edmunds to the troops as an "atta-boy" internally within GM is a natural and positive thing.

5. The Volt is not mere theory, to suggest that it is doesn't do the concept justice. It is based on a real architecture, presents a genuinely new approach to hybrid technology, is a do-able vehicle with the one limitation of the battery tech, and is obviously being considered as a production vehicle by GM. Witness the poll asking if it should be built on chevy.com . Even if it isn't bound for production ultimately, it's still a groundbreaking concept and is to be applauded.

[evok]

...and the naysayers club chimes in. Time to do a little recruiting,eh? Or just can't resist an opportunity to add a negative twist?

1. The e-mail is real and has been confirmed

2. The question of the Honda exec making the statement should be asked of Edmunds, as they are the source, not GM.

3. The members who posted/confirmed the e-mail should not be discredited by idle pessimism as they are known and credible sources. To suggest otherwise borders on offensive.

4. For a GM exec to forward the e-mail from edmunds to the troops as an "atta-boy" internally within GM is a natural and positive thing.

Personally, I could care less. The Honda Pilot sold over 150k copies last year. The three lambdas combined will have a tough time attaining those numbers. In GM lingo the spam email the exec forwarded is called KUDOS. Bla bla bla

5. The Volt is not mere theory, to suggest that it is doesn't do the concept justice. It is based on a real architecture, presents a genuinely new approach to hybrid technology, is a do-able vehicle with the one limitation of the battery tech, and is obviously being considered as a production vehicle by GM. Witness the poll asking if it should be built on chevy.com . Even if it isn't bound for production ultimately, it's still a groundbreaking concept and is to be applauded.

Now lets's have a reality check. The Volt is theory and GM admits to the reality the Volt is not possible or may not be possible anytime soon. GM just testified before congress as much this week on the issue of government funded research into advanced battery technology. Without the batteries the Volt concept is just a reasearch vehicle. Unless it is destined for production with a practical and at most loses very little money, the Volt wows on stage where the Prius is making an impact on real people and creating good will with the press and green peace crowd. Currently for a small fee, there are companies that are currently converting the Prius to a plug-in hybrid. That is today not "maybe" 2010 or 2012 or "if" the lithium-ion battery is ready, or the federal government subsidizes the development. GM has had dozens of ground breaking concepts over the years. They do nothing on a platform if real people can not buy them.

"A technological breakthrough required to make this concept a reality is a large lithium-ion battery. This type of electric car, which the technical community calls an “EV range-extender,” would require a battery pack that weighs nearly 400 pounds (181 kg). Some experts predict that such a battery – or a similar battery – could be production-ready by 2010 to 2012. "

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...amp;docid=31656

Edited January 31, 2007 by evok

[Drew Dowdell]

Personally, I could care less. The Honda Pilot sold over 150k copies last year. The three lambdas combined will have a tough time attaining those numbers.

The craptastic Rendezvous + Aztek was good for 80k per year. I think the new triplets will be able to sell at a much higher clip, probably hitting 150k a year while also having higher transaction prices.

[Northstar]

Isn't GM targeting ~200k for the 3 Lambdas? I know Saturn wants to sell 100k Outlooks, though I don't think people recognize Saturn as a brand to go to for a big SUV right now, so that will take awhile if it's ever reached.

[Drew Dowdell]

Isn't GM targeting ~200k for the 3 Lambdas? I know Saturn wants to sell 100k Outlooks, though I don't think people recognize Saturn as a brand to go to for a big SUV right now, so that will take awhile if it's ever reached.

Why? It didn't take long for Honda to start running out of Pilots and they're not exactly known for being an SUV company.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[evok]

GM is only on planning on selling app. 150k lambdas between the three vehicles. Given that the price points for the entry level Saturn is on par with the Honda, it takes three to equal Hondas one.

Edited January 31, 2007 by evok

[Drew Dowdell]

As I have said GM is only on planning on selling app. 150k lambdas between the three vehicles.

I'm going to make an uneducated guess that 50% of those will be Outlooks selling around Pilot prices... thus the other 50% will be Acadias and Enclaves... both of which will sell at a substantially higher price than even a loaded up Pilot.

150k vehicles at a higher average transaction price than the Pilot is not a bad thing.

[evok]

I'm going to make an uneducated guess that 50% of those will be Outlooks selling around Pilot prices... thus the other 50% will be Acadias and Enclaves... both of which will sell at a substantially higher price than even a loaded up Pilot.

150k vehicles at a higher average transaction price than the Pilot is not a bad thing.

Higher transaction price for GM than normal. But one would also have to factor in the development and marketing of three vehicles compared to the one Honda the situation might change a bit. The GMC starts at 29k and the Buick 32k, but if we factor in the almost 40k starting price for the MDX and app. 80k sales/ year. The story is that much clearer.

In summary - I think the new Lambda products are the best GM has ever built in their day and arguably the best in class and price. In the end, they are going to have to fight for each sale. I highly doubt if we had this conversation next year this time, the Honda volume will be down sharply and the GM volume will be much past 150k.

[Carguy]

The only thing I can think of in this regard, I will go back and mention how GM was proud when the HHr came out because of the complex stamping process used on the HHR fenders. I think it was something to the effect of multiple stamping and enormous expense and quality control process that was required to get the shape and level of consistency and quality of those pieces on the HHR. It apparently was to such an expense and effort that Gm would have never considered before but with Lutz being a disciple of design and quality they were able to convince the brass that it was needed to preserve the desirability of the car and design. fast forward to Outlook, again, if we have proof that GM is willing to go to expense and effort that had not been demonstrated before, to produce a fender for a fairly cost conscious product....maybe what this says to me now that others in the industry such as Honda are seeing that GM is willing to take the gloves off in terms of sweating details they previously would not go to effort on. And if it gets to the point where Honda etc. takes notice that GM is going to start to take the gloves off with all their products....that might be what has them worried. they may be worried that GM will no longer always dumb it down and give the hondas of the world a free ride to the top.

(((AMEN!!)))----Why is it SO HARD for some people to accept that an Asian Exec would say something like this!!----Yes they are good at what they do but they are ((NOT GODS!!))----GM is working hard to improve their image by inproveing their products. And for someone from another manufacturer "EVEN A SOMEHOW SUPERNATURAL ASIAN ONE" to see this ACTUALLY COULD BE TRUE!!--(((YAH AMERICA and GM CAN DO SOMETHING CORRECT!!)))---It is possible OK PEOPLE!! ---((JEEZ!!))

[balthazar]

>>"GM was proud when the HHr came out because of the complex stamping process used on the HHR fenders. I think it was something to the effect of multiple stamping and enormous expense and quality control process that was required to get the shape and level of consistency and quality of those pieces on the HHR."<<

Too bad the dies for the circa '41 pontoon fenders were not still around- same degree of difficulty there, too.

[Drew Dowdell]

What the hell happened? This old thread is spiking off the charts on hits today.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's interesting to read the old comments about the Outlook and Volt with the benefit of 20/20 rearward vision. I have to go back and see if my guestimates were correct.

[Drew Dowdell]

Lamba sales 2010 - 230,565

Pilot+MDX sales 2010 - 149,533

Lambda sales 2009 - 201,159

Pilot+MDX sales 2009 - 115,079

Lambda sales 2008 - 145,944

Pilot+MDX sales 2008 - 142,143

Looks like the guy from Honda was right to be worried. GM came out of no where (well... the Rendezvous and Aztek) in this segment to completely eclipse Honda.

[balthazar]

...was undoubtedly people searching for 'pontoon fender' keywords.

I know how to garnish a thread.

Edited October 29, 2011 by balthazar

[dwightlooi]

QUOTE(GXT @ Jan 25 2007, 06:23 PM) 243930[/snapback]

Why is the president of Edmunds sending emails to GM execs?

What does she mean by "surfaces"?

I have an idea Edmonds stays fairly close contact with the manufacturers... but not sure other than that.

Surfaces is the exterior sheetmetal work. The untrained eye may not pick up on the flow of the sheetmelal but there are manufacturing limits to what can be done with it, and that depens on whether a peice of metal needs 1, 2 or 3 stages of stamping. Of couse the more stages, the more expensive to produce. That's about the best that I can explain it.

Actually, I think GM made a few bad calls with regards to "surfaces" and in doing so took on a long shot they cannot reliably hit. For instance, if you look at the last generation Malibu's hood you'll notice the design calls for a flush relationship between the fenders, the bumper and the hood itself. This is VERY DIFFICULT to pull off because typical tolerances will cause the hood to close either too low, too high, slightly higher to one side or offset in one axis or another. Even slight tolerance variations cause the car to look crooked.This is why hoods typically closes over the grill not try to level with it. The only other car with this style of closure was the last generation of Acura Integra before they went with the RSX moniker. Honda did that once and never did it again.

Did GM pull it off? No, not really, half the Bus have crooked looking hoods. On the otherhand they did pull off the sharp crease on the front fender stamping of the CTS where the chrome ornament is. That is also very hard to get right, but they did get it right. I'll saying GM's record on these stunts are spotty.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've never noticed Malibu hoods being crooked. I'm going to have to start looking now.

I do remember Lutz discussing how difficult that particular stamping was.

[regfootball]

the whole inquiry on it is moot. any large automaker should have the skills and capability to perform it reasonably well on demand without fuss if the design warrants it.

if it increases assembly cost i can see why it matters. but if its required to do it for the product, then there's no excuse to not do it well.

[regfootball]

speaking of doing difficult things. we had a conversation at work about (what i consider the stupidity) of Ford and the way they ran the door under the bottom on the Flex. Not only is it an expensive bitch, it also is prone to high repair costs and damage from debris as well as when you open the door. In this case, they claimed it was for design, and they pulled it off, and it was not cheap, but it was just flat out stupid. It could have a more normal, easier, less expensive layout that would have been just as attractive design wise. Imagine being the pissed off Flex owner who scraped up the bottom of his door on some rocks or a tall curb.

[dwightlooi]

the whole inquiry on it is moot. any large automaker should have the skills and capability to perform it reasonably well on demand without fuss if the design warrants it.

if it increases assembly cost i can see why it matters. but if its required to do it for the product, then there's no excuse to not do it well.

The problem is that it is not something which existing processes and tolerances of ALL major automakers can do well. And, deliberately design a car to exhibit these shortcomings is not exactly a wise move. I guess they were trying for an engineering triumph to conquer, but really consumers don't know it is hard and won't recognize their victory.

[Drew Dowdell]

Looking around at Malibus over the weekend, I didn't notice any out of alignment hoods. Nothing I could tell without getting a micrometer out.... they were visually fine.

[A Horse With No Name]

Looks like the guy from Honda was right to be worried. GM came out of no where (well... the Rendezvous and Aztek) in this segment to completely eclipse Honda.

People at Honda are worried. Talked to a very honest Honda salesman the other day. Ridgeline is tanking or tanked, Fit has lost a ton of real world resale value, Acura has lost its luster, the new Hybrid Sports car is not well received, (CRZ) neww Civic is outlcassed in real world to the Cruze and the Focus.

Honda has some legit worrying to do.

Looking around at Malibus over the weekend, I didn't notice any out of alignment hoods. Nothing I could tell without getting a micrometer out.... they were visually fine.

GM quality has done nothing but (thankfully) go up over the last decade.