Cadillac Europe Limping Along

[Flybrian]

Cadillac's sales targets in Europe look doomed
Neil Winton: European Perspective
Link to Original Article @ DetNews

BARCELONA, Spain -- While Cadillac introduces new models into Europe, industry watchers here are busily slashing their sales forecasts for the General Motors luxury brand.

And the recent launch here in Spain of three new gas-guzzling leviathans suggests that GM's attempt to sell in Europe's premium sector with Cadillacs, Corvette sports cars and Hummers is more of an attempt to sell a few more cars into niche sectors with high margins, rather than a serious attempt to storm the luxury citadel owned jointly by BMW, Mercedes and Audi.

Cadillac's European market entry began with the introduction of the CTS sedan in 2003, but sales were meant to be kick-started into real action in 2006 with the little BLS, the first European diesel in the storied history of the brand. The BLS, built at GM's Saab factory in Trollhattan, Sweden, and based on the Saab 9-3, was designed with Europe in mind. The CTS, and other huge-by-European-standards cars were never going to be more than minor efforts selling in small numbers more as curiosities than serious contenders.

Modest target

Cadillac said from the start that to build its brand in Europe would take time, and it was careful to post modest targets. Instead of using the existing Opel, Vauxhall and Saab network in Europe, GM decided to use a Dutch based company - Cadillac, Corvette and Hummer Europe (CCHE) - and set a modest opening target of 20,000 cars by 2010. But the BLS is stumbling - sales reached about 1,300 in 2006 after the launch in April. Overall Cadillac sales totaled about 3,000 in 2006, up from just over 2,000 in 2005. Although CCHE staunchly stands by its 20,000 by 2010 target, automotive consultancies are crunching their numbers and finding that less than half this is likely.

Walt Madeira, British-based Europe Sales Forecast Manager for CSM Worldwide, believes Cadillac sales will reach between 7,000 and 8,000 by 2010, with about 50 percent accounted for by the BLS. A BLS station wagon is expected to be added in 2007.

Jonathon Poskill, Senior Analyst, Europe, for J.D.Power Automotive Forecasting, has slashed his forecast again. Last year J.D. Power reckoned Cadillac would sell 16,000 vehicles by 2010; now this has been more than halved to between 6,000 and 7,000.

Madeira awaits promised improvements in the Cadillac dealer network, and improvements in brand awareness, or rather a change in the brand's perception, which is still associated with pink behemoths with outrageous clutter like fins and chrome.

Comically inappropriate

The three vehicles that CCHE is currently launching in Europe won't do much to dispel this old image. The Cadillac Escalade, Cadillac SRX and Hummer H3 are almost comically inappropriate gas guzzlers and will be thought of by some political campaign groups in Europe as outrageous and irresponsible examples of conspicuous consumption. None of these three vehicles will be powered by a diesel, a serious omission in Europe where every other car sold is a diesel. The luxury sector is even more diesel conscious and up to 80 percent of sales are diesel. Cadillac says there will be diesels soon, but won't say when. It does promise that in 3 years, all its vehicles will be offered with the ability to use bio-fuels or bio-diesel.

Many European politicians, newspapers and broadcast media have succumbed to extreme environmentalist arguments about global warming and the human influence that may or not be behind climate change. Highly taxed Europeans face yet more massive gasoline taxes, while airlines are also being targeted in apocalyptic terms as destroyers of the planet. DaimlerChrysler AG's chief economist's Van Jolissaint almost summed this up in a recent speech in Detroit at the automobile show.

"Europe seems to take a political position that some people might describe, not me of course, that some people might describe as quasi-hysterical, that the sky is falling: we have to dramatically change the way that we organize society today and forever," Jolissaint said.

No kowtowing from Cadillac

DaimlerChrysler complained Jolissaint's remarks were later mis-represented by a BBC report, making it appear as though the comments represented its position on global warming. DaimlerChrysler says human influence on global warming is not proven, but it nevertheless seeks to produce products which minimize potential impact on the climate.

You can't accuse Cadillac of kowtowing to the European environmental lobby.

The Cadillac Escalade is a huge, gas guzzling SUV with a 6.2 litre V8 engine producing 409 bhp, which consumes an average of 16.2 miles per imperial gallon and 383 grams per kilometre (g/km) of carbon dioxide.

The Cadillac SRX is powered by a 4.6 litre Northstar V8 producing 325 bhp, 16.7 mpg and 396 g/km. The Hummer H3's 3.7 litre in-line 5-cylinder motor produces 244 bhp, 14.5 mpg and 346 g/km.

The European Union, which may introduce mandatory regulations cutting CO2 emissions along the lines of the U.S. Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFÉ) rules, is expected to insist on an average of 120 g/km by 2012. The current voluntary target is a fleet-wide 140 g/km by 2008, which is unlikely to be met. A mandatory CO2 regime is likely to mean hefty financial penalties for companies like Cadillac.

CSM Worldwide's Madeira believes that products like the Escalade, SRX and Hummer H3 show Cadillac in Europe is just trying to sell a few more cars at high margins, rather than seeking to maximize sales.

Whopping price

The Escalade is priced at a whopping $92,500, including taxes and import duty, compared with a starting price in the U.S. of close to $55,000 before taxes.

Madeira also believes the sales strategy is wrong.

"They don't have the right products, there is a lack of diesels, and no entry level hatchback like a Golf competitor. (DaimlerChrysler's) Dodge chose to enter the European market with the Caliber with aggressive pricing. Cadillac is still seen as fairly expensive and consumers are unlikely to abandon their BMWs, Mercedes and Audis," said Madeira.

Making the BLS in Europe was also a mistake, according to Madeira, and it isn't different enough.

"It would have made more sense to make the BLS in the U.S., not least because the falling dollar would have made it a better financial opportunity. I see it as offering too little in terms of price and capability (compared with the main competitor, the BMW 3-series)," said Madeira.

J.D.Power's Poskitt was also disappointed by BLS sales.

"We expected the BLS to do better, but it's been significantly lower because they don't have the dealer network. We thought they would go through the GM (Opel, Vauxhall or Saab) network. We didn't expect them to go through a new Dutch network. Our earlier forecast was based on them really pushing the BLS. It's had quite good reviews though, it's well priced and well equipped, but let down by the ride and handling, which is important for Europeans," said Poskitt.

BLS production weak

"The estate (station wagon) coming out later this year will help sales, but looking at the (BLS) production numbers, they are very weak at the moment indicating that they are not ramping up production, so it's not taking off in the way it might have done," said Poskitt.

He felt the latest trio of vehicles wouldn't hit buyers' sweet spots.

"Look at what you can get instead (of an Escalade) - a BMW X5 or Range Rover Sport, and they have diesels. People are now more environmentally aware and these types of vehicles are quite the opposite of what people are looking for. They are the wrong types of vehicles to gain any real volume," Poskitt said.

CSM Worldwide's Madeira agreed, saying the new vehicles were "quite out of sync" for Europeans.

Cadillac has compared its attempt to scale European markets with Lexus, which took 15 years to get to the around 20,000 annual sales. This year Lexus European sales will be around 60,000 and are expected to reach between 90,000 and 100,000 by 2010. These numbers are miniscule compared with by both companies' U.S. sales, which are both currently more than 10 times higher than Cadillac's 20,000 sales target.

Madeira thinks Cadillac might still be successful, if, among other things, it develops products which excite Europeans.

"Given that the car industry is a marathon and not a sprint, Cadillac should look to build slowly but with solid product options for Europeans, which means diesel powered cars which show CO2 awareness and are passionate vehicles for the people who choose to buy the brand.

"For now, Cadillac has started the sales race limping and it's not been very quick off the starting line," said Madeira.

Neil Winton, European columnist for Autos Insider, is based in Sussex, England. E-mail him at [email protected]

[z28luvr01]

Selling the Escalade and the Hummer in Europe is downright stupid, even if they did have diesels. Selling the SRX there is only marginally less so.

[Flybrian]

A small displacement turbodiesel H3 could do well because it has compelling looks in a reasonable package. The Escalade is just kitsch.

[MisterMe]

Selling the Escalade and the Hummer in Europe is downright stupid, even if they did have diesels. Selling the SRX there is only marginally less so.

It's not stupid, it is a marketing choice. Clearly if Cadillac wanted to sell diesels, it could have. GM would be foolish to go onto Mercedes-Benz/BMW ground with the intention of beating those guys at their own game. Instead, GM has chosen to concentrate its efforts on providing Europeans with the American luxury experience. The mass market does not want this, but many Europeans do. Time will tell if there are enough Europeans who want America's version of luxury to make the venture successful.

[z28luvr01]

It's not stupid, it is a marketing choice. Clearly if Cadillac wanted to sell diesels, it could have. GM would be foolish to go onto Mercedes-Benz/BMW ground with the intention of beating those guys at their own game. Instead, GM has chosen to concentrate its efforts on providing Europeans with the American luxury experience. The mass market does not want this, but many Europeans do. Time will tell if there are enough Europeans who want America's version of luxury to make the venture successful.

Even a half baked attempt at market research would reveal that Europeans don't care at all for cars designed for American roads. European roads are by and large narrower and smoother than even our freshly paved streets. Therefore a small, packaging-efficient, fuel efficient vehicle with an extremely tight suspension would be what the doctor ordered. The Escalade, SRX, and H3 don't really fit those categories. They are too big, floaty, and inefficient for European consumption.

[red]

Having lived in Europe for a short period of time, it seems like Cadillac's European strategy is not even close to half-baked. It just doesn't make sense.

The Escalade & SRX have no reason for being sold in the European market right now. To get started in a new market, especially one with hyper-critical tastes, you've got to bring your best - and it's got to be tailored for that market. Keep in mind that gas is more than 3x more expensive out there, and Euros demand much more features and quality than the current Escalade and SRX offer.

The BLS was a good idea to keep capacity going, but never really had a chance given its current platform. The next BLS should really benefit from an Epsilon-II or small-RWD platform, as well as some more risky styling (have you seen what the French do?) and a better powertrain.

I believe the CTS will fair better than the current version, but not by much given its size. The CTS is like a full-sized car out there. It may also be a little understyled for European tastes...

The biggest problem that Cadillac will have is perception...this was touched upon by the article above. American excess is really frowned upon throughout Europe...so you've got to have one hell of a product. The brand's success relies upon the next BLS, BRX, and possibly a smaller, niche entry.

[Robert Hall]

Even a half baked attempt at market research would reveal that Europeans don't care at all for cars designed for American roads. European roads are by and large narrower and smoother than even our freshly paved streets. Therefore a small, packaging-efficient, fuel efficient vehicle with an extremely tight suspension would be what the doctor ordered. The Escalade, SRX, and H3 don't really fit those categories. They are too big, floaty, and inefficient for European consumption.

The Escalade (and H2) don't make much sense in the US market either, IMHO...obese, innefficent, excessive...

[Croc]

SRX is fine for Europe. Escalade? No effin way. GM should offer XLR, CTS, STS/SLS and SRX in Europe. If they can make the BLS competent, then that too; but as of now it is too half-baked to be a serious contender, though I am personally fond of it.

Edited January 23, 2007 by Croc

[Flybrian]

See, I think the Escalade should certainly be offered in Europe along with the H2, but in a more 'boutique' fashion.

[evok]

Lexus Europe Sales ........2005/2004

GS 300/GS 430................... 4,896- 643

IS 200/IS 300...................... 3,523 - 7,169

IS 220/IS 250...................... 2,160 –

LS 430................................ 771 - 1,158

RX 300/RX 330/RX 400h ..... 11,279 - 11,329

SC 430................................ 640 - 772

Other................................... 71 - 51

Total Lexus........................... 23,340 - 21,122

Cadillac Europe.........2005/2004

CTS..................................... 639 - 673

Escalade ............................. 52 - 31

Seville ................................. 70 - 127

SRX .................................... 1,035 - 361

STS..................................... 293 - 1

XLR..................................... 63 - 75

Other................................... 33 - 35

Total Cadillac ....................... 2,185 - 1,303

"CSM Worldwide's Madeira believes that products like the Escalade, SRX and Hummer H3 show Cadillac in Europe is just trying to sell a few more cars at high margins, rather than seeking to maximize sales."

Given all the words Madeira said, this was about the only intelligent thing he said. Looking at Lexux's numbers it seems that is their strategy also. And all the words he had to say about the BLS, it is not a half bad effort for what it needed to be given GM did not have a small rwd platform, it is adding some volume to the plant in Sweden and giving Cadillac another entry for their Euro dealer network.

Edited January 24, 2007 by evok

[Flybrian]

Total Cadillac ....................... 2,185 - 1,303

Add to that this...

Jan 06-Aug 06 - 3,272

And for HUMMER...

2005 - 622

Jan 06-Aug 06 - 1,848

I'm wondering how Lexus' growth was during its early years. Also, isn't/wasn't the RX sold as the Toyota Harrier in Europe? Are those figures just folded over?

[Croc]

Looks like the SRX is Caddy's biggest seller in Europe...nearly half of EU sales were the SRX according to those figures.

[evok]

Lexus 2003/2002

GS300 ............................ 881- 1,400

GS430 ............................ 283- 400

IS200.............................. 7,388 -8,430

IS300.............................. 810- 1,409

LS430............................. 866- 1,103

RX300 ............................ 7,751- 5,051

SC430 ............................ 858- 1,473

Other .............................. 4- 27

Total Lexus ...................... 18,841- 19,293

[Flybrian]

Looks like the SRX is Caddy's biggest seller in Europe...nearly half of EU sales were the SRX according to those figures.

Those figures are prior to the BLS, so both of those combined make up a very healthy percentage.

Looking at the number Evok just posted, its clear the trends are very, very similar. Both the entry-level sport sedan (IS/BLS) and midsize crossover (RX/SRX) are the most popular. You can explain the RX's higher numbers since its been there longer and its more suited for the European market in size and engine choice (smaller displacement, no V8). Given that the SRX they're referring to in the article as 'debuting' is our 2007 model with interior upgrades, I wouldn't be surprised to see a reasonable increase. Combined with the new CTS making its way over there in less than a year (and with a Diesel engine soonafter), I expect the gap to close further.

Notice Lexus also sells the rest of their lineup almost with a come-get-them-if-you-really-want attitude since the GS, LS, and SC sold like $h! (and the latter two still do). Besides, the SC doesn't have to compete with the Corvette (~1800 sold for 2006) while the XLR does.

Looking at the big picture shows Cadillac isn't doing bad at all with a limited dealer network selling a completely US-centric lineup and one FWD SAAB remodel jousting with A4s, 3ers, and C-Classes.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Cadillacs image would be better served in Europe with a 12 cylinder motor. maybe even before diesels. For some reason gas guzzling 10 and 12 cylinders garner more respect than do silverados and tundras. To be considered a true lux brand in Europe it is almost essential in my opinion.

I know: lesux does not have one-- but Toyota at least has a presence in F1, however small. That goes a long way in its own right. Does one have to do with the other?

Of course the product has to be there, too but I think they are linked to some degree..

Look at the Z06 and corvette as a line for instance. Continued success in LeMans racing while stomping the the astons and ferraris has changed the perception of many people to the point of looking past qualms about the interior.

Auto racing, prestige, and history are all very much a part of marketing in Europe. After that maybe a different president and some slight changes in foreign policy may work in Cadillacs favor. Either way, I wouldnt sweat it too much as their foot is in the door.

[Intrepidation]

It's not stupid, it is a marketing choice. Clearly if Cadillac wanted to sell diesels, it could have. GM would be foolish to go onto Mercedes-Benz/BMW ground with the intention of beating those guys at their own game. Instead, GM has chosen to concentrate its efforts on providing Europeans with the American luxury experience. The mass market does not want this, but many Europeans do. Time will tell if there are enough Europeans who want America's version of luxury to make the venture successful.

Even cheap economy cars have diesel options in Europe, so your argument that diesels would put Cadillac into Mercedes, BMW territory is pointless. Europeans look down on American vehicles in general...so what sort of stupid strategy would it be to offer "American" luxury. And since when does "American luxury" have to mean oversized, gas-guzzling vehicles? Does that also include vehicles that can't handle for $h!? Cuz that's what European's have in mind when they think "American luxury".

As I've said before, the BLS is probably laughed at by Europeans. It's an obvious worked-over Saab 9-3...I mean even the door panels are the same. If GM wants Cadillac to be taken seriously, they need to design a proper 3-series sized car, that's AWD and designed to be a Caddy from the start. This will move the CTS in 5-series territory as far as competing sizes go, while significantly undercutting the 5-series. Then drop the damn Hummer and Escalade from the European portfolio.

[ZL-1]

I think it is mostly perception, but also a lack understanding about the 'diesel wave'. I remeber reading in L'Automobile magazine that diesel penetration in France is around 60% and I don't think it is much less than that in Continental Europe as a whole, where diesel is generally taxed less than gasoline.

Another thing that I think may be hurting Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer is giving so much weight to Kroymans. With all the brands in their portfolio, all of which are established names in Europe, I think the effort they'll put into GMNA brands will always be marginal. GM should be running the show.

EDIT @ Dodgefan - BLS is not laughed at. It is simply ignored.

Edited January 24, 2007 by ZL-1

[evok]

I think many of you forget that MB, Audi and BMW are full line manufacturers in Europe and offer those same vehicles in the US at a premium.

The MB S-Class, Audi A8 and the BMW 7-Series account for less than 40,000 sales in Europe -

The MB C-Class, Audi A3 and the BMW 3-Series account for almost 600,000 sales in Europe and are the some of best selling small cars in that market.

The BMW 3 - Series sells more of that model in Europe than Cadillac in the US and that means it sells more than the Chevrolet Cobalt.

Maybe Cadillac should rebadge the Cobalt for Europe. It can be argued they might have a better chance of success than with the larger BLS if success is only measure by gross volume for the brand.

Edited January 24, 2007 by evok

[enzl]

I think Caddy needs to have the BLS-type product, just not the BLS. If the BLS was a small 08 CTS-like product, it would be a much easier item to sell.

The BLS, as it sits, is too much Epsilon, too little Cadillac for most tastes. If the 9-3 it's based on were class leading, then it would be less of a bitter pill to swallow, but still a compromise, at best.

To me, GM's $ and energy are better spent on Saab in Europe, with Cadillac, Hummer & Corvette as niche machines. Saab sells well in the UK & has a passable reputation elsewhere. Saab can also get away with FWD underpinings on its smallest offerings, making a platform sharing, US produced, '9-1' or '9-2' product very doable....

[Intrepidation]

I think it is mostly perception, but also a lack understanding about the 'diesel wave'. I remeber reading in L'Automobile magazine that diesel penetration in France is around 60% and I don't think it is much less than that in Continental Europe as a whole, where diesel is generally taxed less than gasoline.

Another thing that I think may be hurting Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer is giving so much weight to Kroymans. With all the brands in their portfolio, all of which are established names in Europe, I think the effort they'll put into GMNA brands will always be marginal. GM should be running the show.

EDIT @ Dodgefan - BLS is not laughed at. It is simply ignored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGtWRVqss4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMu3L30e6b8&NR

[Flybrian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGtWRVqss4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMu3L30e6b8&NR

Top Gear video reviews are infotainment.

How about some other reviews?

EveCars - 3/5

AutoExpress - 2.5/5

Parker's - 3.5/5

Glass's - 3/5

WHATCAR - 3/5

You'll find that the general sentiment is that its a likeable in terms of its interior, economy, equipment, price, trunk space, and distinctive looks, but that its hamstrung by the Epsilon underpinnings (slowish, lots of bodyroll, choppy suspension) that make it more of a cruiser than a sport sedan. Tighten up the handling and ride quality and expand the dealer network and you'll see a difference.

[evok]

Cadillac, Corvette and Hummer Europe (CCHE) = A dealer network and a very limited dealer network selling niche vehicles. CCHE has only been in place a couple years and yet this dealer network is selling about 1/4 of the vehicles as the Lexus dealer network.

[The O.C.]

It's not stupid, it is a marketing choice. Clearly if Cadillac wanted to sell diesels, it could have.

Not really.....

GM doesn't have a diesel engine engineered to fit into the GMT-900, SRX, or H3......(the Duramax won't work either.)

They would have to engineer an all new powertrain to fit those products......and it's unlikely they will do it just for Europe. Once you start seeing US diesels that meet the appropriate emissions and sulphur issues, then you'll be able to see those transferred over to products exported to Europe.

[ZL-1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGtWRVqss4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMu3L30e6b8&NR

You take Top Gear way too seriously :AH-HA_wink:

@ evok - don't you think that Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer Europe, even with the small dealer network, could have been more ambitious if GM had offered a diesel V6 for the CTS/SRX/STS trio?

Edited January 25, 2007 by ZL-1

[enzl]

You take Top Gear way too seriously :AH-HA_wink:

@ evok - don't you think that Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer Europe, even with the small dealer network, could have been more ambitious if GM had offered a diesel V6 for the CTS/SRX/STS trio?

IIRC, Fiat Group would have been the partner that helped provide the V6 diesel, which would of found its way into Saabs, Alfas, Fiats & Euro Caddy's....

One of the 'benefits' of the Fiat disaster was supposed to be access to Euro friendly diesels, in 4 & 6 cylinder formats. It also makes you wonder how Isuzu was misused as a resource for diesel engine development. It's my understanding that they are working with new partner Toyota on a range of diesels.

My prediction is that you'll see 300k Caddy's sold in the US well before you see 20K sold in europe. (If there's an 'expansion' of the US line to include a BLS & a BRX, that 300k should be sooner than later.)

[bcs296]

This is quite simple. These models are flat out inappropriate for Europe.

Whoever made this decision should be fired.

These are the kind of bad management decisions that GM needs to eliminate or at least minimize.

Edited January 25, 2007 by bcs296

[Intrepidation]

You take Top Gear way too seriously :AH-HA_wink:

@ evok - don't you think that Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer Europe, even with the small dealer network, could have been more ambitious if GM had offered a diesel V6 for the CTS/SRX/STS trio?

Not really, the main part of the show was for some radio talk show stuff. But they pointed out some things that any person with half a brain and whose been to a Saab dealership will know. It's an overpriced 9-3 with Cadillac sheet metal. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out, and the sales reflect that.

[evok]

You take Top Gear way too seriously :AH-HA_wink:

@ evok - don't you think that Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer Europe, even with the small dealer network, could have been more ambitious if GM had offered a diesel V6 for the CTS/SRX/STS trio?

He has trouble thinking for himself.

As for your question, the diesel was originally in the plans. During the product development they were pulled. Orignally they were to use IIRC an Isuzu 3.0l v6.

Getting back to reality, I am surprised the current vehicles are doing as well as they are. The NG CTS will determine if they have a future in Europe.

As for enzl's comments on Fiat, the deal with GM was good and could have been better. Just too bad GMNA had to implode again.

[Intrepidation]

He has trouble thinking for himself.

As for your question, the diesel was originally in the plans. During the product development they were pulled. Orignally they were to use IIRC an Isuzu 3.0l v6.

Getting back to reality, I am surprised the current vehicles are doing as well as they are. The NG CTS will determine if they have a future in Europe.

As for enzl's comments on Fiat, the deal with GM was good and could have been better. Just too bad GMNA had to implode again.

Yeah, real trouble. Where would we be without your your brilliant and ever knowing input? I posted that as a quick observation of what Europeans think of the car, and to back up my point that it probably gets little respect in the entry luxury segment.. Oh, and reality I suppose has nothing to do with the BLS having lackluster sales?

[Flybrian]

Again, read the links to the other reviews I've posted. You'll find that its competitively-priced and well-appointed and they even like the powerplant choices, it just needs help in the suspension area. Apparently, its wallowy in the corners but choppy over uneven surfaces. The latter shouldn't occur, even in a traditional Cadillac.

[Intrepidation]

Again, read the links to the other reviews I've posted. You'll find that its competitively-priced and well-appointed and they even like the powerplant choices, it just needs help in the suspension area. Apparently, its wallowy in the corners but choppy over uneven surfaces. The latter shouldn't occur, even in a traditional Cadillac.

Does posting those links mean you have trouble thinking?

Yeah I see that. As I've said before...I like the car, it looks sharp outside and the dash looks quite nice even with the corporate stereo and the Saab bits. It's just that I don't think it's nearly enough for the highly competitive segment, although badge snobbery certainly plays a part.

[evok]

Yeah, real trouble. Where would we be without your your brilliant and ever knowing input? I posted that as a quick observation of what Europeans think of the car, and to back up my point that it probably gets little respect in the entry luxury segment.. Oh, and reality I suppose has nothing to do with the BLS having lackluster sales?

Oh young man - ZL1's input to me is far more relevant then your 2 cents. He lives in Europe and probably has a better perspective than you on the real market. I listen to people that add to the discussion.

[ZL-1]

But they pointed out some things that any person with half a brain and whose been to a Saab dealership will know. It's an overpriced 9-3 with Cadillac sheet metal. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out, and the sales reflect that.

A small provocation: wouldn't that make a 300C an overpriced Dodge with Chrysler sheetmetal and interior styling, then? Where exactly is the line on differentiation drawn? Could it be subjective?

As for your question, the diesel was originally in the plans. During the product development they were pulled. Orignally they were to use IIRC an Isuzu 3.0l v6.

I didn't know that. I'm assuming that V6 would be a RWD application of the V6 used in the Opel Vectra.

Getting back to reality, I am surprised the current vehicles are doing as well as they are. The NG CTS will determine if they have a future in Europe.

IMO, distinctive styling helps as long as the line between bold and hideous isn't crossed. I remeber seeing two SRX in Lisbon (one dark blue, one silver) and they look very different from anything else that is sold here!

Re the new CTS, I believe it will do well in comparison with the current one: the VM diesel will help broaden the appeal to people who want distinctive looks but still have to consider mileage/cost/depreciation issues. Actually, at 235hp/500Nm it will kill the 2.8L V6 in power and torque. Add an advantage in mileage and there may be an interesting car there :AH-HA_wink:

You'll find that its competitively-priced and well-appointed and they even like the powerplant choices, it just needs help in the suspension area. Apparently, its wallowy in the corners but choppy over uneven surfaces. The latter shouldn't occur, even in a traditional Cadillac.

Aside from the 'Jeremy Clarkson & Co' funny comments, that's exactly the stuff I've heard/read regarding the BLS. It is lacking the driving dynamics of the segment's standars which is the BMW 3-Series, and that will only change if and when GM moves the car to a RWD platform. Edited January 25, 2007 by ZL-1

[Flybrian]

IMO, distinctive styling helps as long as the line between bold and hideous isn't crossed. I remeber seeing two SRX in Lisbon (one dark blue, one silver) and they look very different from anything else that is sold here!

Hmm, speaking of the SRX...

New SRX Impresses Across the Pond - Autocar review

[Imaj]

It really doesn't matter how much Cadillac sells in Europe, as long as they are selling cars and at a profit. Cadillac has almost no recognition in Europe, so being there for just the sake of being there is good enough for Cadillac.

Given time Cadillac will gain recognition and costumers.

[evok]

IMO, distinctive styling helps as long as the line between bold and hideous isn't crossed. I remeber seeing two SRX in Lisbon (one dark blue, one silver) and they look very different from anything else that is sold here!

Re the new CTS, I believe it will do well in comparison with the current one: the VM diesel will help broaden the appeal to people who want distinctive looks but still have to consider mileage/cost/depreciation issues. Actually, at 235hp/500Nm it will kill the 2.8L V6 in power and torque. Add an advantage in mileage and there may be an interesting car there

The NG CTS is the whole package and will have a first rate diesel as you point out. If there is a market for them in Europe that will be the first test of the markets reaction with a first class, no compromise product.

I was surprised when I looked at the SRX numbers in Europe when I posted the data.

At this point only time will tell.

PS - I for one do not have my hand on he pulse of the Euro market. I know what the data shows, I know what europeans tell me but to me I have to listen to the people that are there to understand if Cadillac can pull it off.

Edited January 25, 2007 by evok

[RJB]

Big cars (by European standards) + small roads = BAD! The Escalade, H3, and even the SRX are huge vehicles to them in Europe. Their roads are obviously smaller which require smaller vehicles, such as the BLS. But the BLS being a watered down 9-3 does not cut it, even with the current diesel in it. The diesel game has moved along so far and so fast that a mediocre diesel is not even considered anymore. Look at the diesels from BMW and Mercedes, they are possibly more cutting edge than most gas engines out today. So of course the Europeans are harsh when it comes to something that comes across the pond. If GM is going to sell a car there I think it needs to be developed entirely in Europe from the ground up to even have a fighting chance.

[ZL-1]

The NG CTS is the whole package and will have a first rate diesel as you point out. If there is a market for them in Europe that will be the first test of the markets reaction with a first class, no compromise product.

It's their best chance yet of winning on the perception front. It needs to be shown and advertised as much as possible, though.

I was surprised when I looked at the SRX numbers in Europe when I posted the data.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I like the SRX, but still I'd like to see how it would have looked with a Vizon-inspired front end!

PS - I for one do not have my hand on he pulse of the Euro market. I know what the data shows, I know what europeans tell me but to me I have to listen to the people that are there to understand if Cadillac can pull it off.

I don't think there's a 'European market': the French will mainly buy French cars even if they're as odd-looking as a Citröen C6, the Germans will gravitate around Audi/BMW/MB, in Sweden the best selling car is the Volvo V70. IMO the biggest commonality across European countries is the purchase of small cars because of space constraints (small roads and sometimes ridiculously small parking spaces) and economic reasons (essentially due to higher fuel prices - high taxation).

[evok]

I don't think there's a 'European market': the French will mainly buy French cars even if they're as odd-looking as a Citröen C6, the Germans will gravitate around Audi/BMW/MB, in Sweden the best selling car is the Volvo V70. IMO the biggest commonality across European countries is the purchase of small cars because of space constraints (small roads and sometimes ridiculously small parking spaces) and economic reasons (essentially due to higher fuel prices - high taxation).

But looking at the sales, the market is evolving yet at a much slower pace than the US market. Europe is a bigger market than the US. And slowly but in a very steady fashion (sound familar) Toyota is selling about a million vehicles a year in the market, Hyundai Group is heading toward a million and is outselling Honda 2:1, etc. This would have been unthinkable all but a decade ago. These manufacturers have all but doubled their sales in Europe since the late 1990's.

Just like in the US there is the home town bias or gravitation toward the hometown, but the sentiments are changing. The merits of the product are becoming more important than where it was built.

Therefore, if Cadillac follows through with their program plans and the product is as well thoughout as the NG CTS, by early next decade Cadillac as a brand could be selling 30k+ in that market.

[ZL-1]

But looking at the sales, the market is evolving yet at a much slower pace than the US market. Europe is a bigger market than the US. And slowly but in a very steady fashion (sound familar) Toyota is selling about a million vehicles a year in the market, Hyundai Group is heading toward a million and is outselling Honda 2:1, etc. This would have been unthinkable all but a decade ago. These manufacturers have all but doubled their sales in Europe since the late 1990's.

Just like in the US there is the home town bias or gravitation toward the hometown, but the sentiments are changing. The merits of the product are becoming more important than where it was built.

Therefore, if Cadillac follows through with their program plans and the product is as well thoughout as the NG CTS, by early next decade Cadillac as a brand could be selling 30k+ in that market.

I think the main change in Europe has been that the Asians started designing and building cars in Europe: that helped reduce consumer's home town bias.

I think Cadillac has always had a chance: people here equal American cars with 'excess', but that can be useful at the top-end of the market for people who want to stand out from the MB/BMW/Audi crowd. What Cadillac has lacked is quality product and diesel engines. The '08 CTS seems to fix those shortcomings and will be the pivotal car for Cadillac's international aspirations: the '03 CTS was the big splash in terms of styling, but the '08 CTS and the NG STS/DTS will determine if Cadillac can run with MB and BMW. A 2nd-gen RWD BLS can play a part too, but I'm taking a 'seeing-is-believeing' stance with regard to that.