DTS has still got it

[Mr.Krinkle]

28% fleet for Deville. That's pathetic for any model within a "luxury" brand......

CTS is the car that should be applauded here......on the basis of the strength of it's retail sales over both STS and DTS.....

There are people who will specifically request a cadillac when they need to get to an airport or to a show.

Chances are if you have taken a taxi ride abroad it will have been in an E-Class.In Western Europe it accounts for 30 per cent of the executive car market

Ms Baker added, “In the UK 80 per cent of E-Class models opt for a diesel engined model and the vast majority of customers are corporate, business user-choosers or fleet buyers. The E-Class estates have a slightly higher proportion of retail customers over the saloons.”

http://www.askaprice.com/torque-article.as..._&item=1973

you might want to avert your eyes.

I dont see the big deal.

[Robert Hall]

VE are the SWB versions (Commodore/Berlina/Calais) and WM are the LWB versions (Statesman and Caprice). I don't know if NA Zeta matches the Holdens exactly or not.

Anyone have those wheelbases in inches?

[gm4life]

Like Fly said FWD still makes sense for people who don't want a BMW. A FWD DTS/Lucerne is still needed because sales speak. A new FWD (large platform off of Lambada maybe? *AWD*) Might be a good idea, there is STILL A HUGE MARKET for these things, $h! it was Caddys best selling model. You don't throw away what sells. That is stupid and DUMB-A$$ marketing.

[97regalGS]

Like Fly said FWD still makes sense for people who don't want a BMW. A FWD DTS/Lucerne is still needed because sales speak. A new FWD (large platform off of Lambada maybe? *AWD*) Might be a good idea, there is STILL A HUGE MARKET for these things, $h! it was Caddys best selling model. You don't throw away what sells. That is stupid and DUMB-A$$ marketing.

don't kid yourself. these people don't care if it's FWD, RWD, AWD or one wheel drive. they buy it because it is a Cadillac. you could convert it to RWD tonite and sales wouldn't miss a beat. in fact, they might increase as people who avoid the stigma of FWD might buy one.

[ToniCipriani]

But GM has no large FWD platform planned to replace either the G or W bodies.

What happened to Chi?

[regfootball]

AWD is needed if its a RWD chassis for the northern climes.

[Robert Hall]

AWD is needed if its a RWD chassis for the northern climes.

As an option, yes...I wonder how many AWD 300s and Magnums Chrysler sells relative to RWD ones..

Then again, Ford sells Crown Vics, GMs, and Town Cars without AWD...

RWD with traction control seems to be a viable alternative to AWD these days...I certainly see a lot of RWD cars around here (Denver) and we definitely get the snow and ice, esp. this winter (though I won't be getting rid of my 4WD Jeep anytime soon)..

Edited January 25, 2007 by moltar

[97regalGS]

AWD is needed if its a RWD chassis for the northern climes.

reg - get off that kick. if today's DTS was RWD, sales would not decrease due to a lack of AWD. those gray hairs don't go out in a blizzard.

[regfootball]

reg - get off that kick. if today's DTS was RWD, sales would not decrease due to a lack of AWD. those gray hairs don't go out in a blizzard.

get a clue. go talk to any dealer who sells cars in winter climates. AWD is needed as an option. RWD only immediately reduces your potential buyer base significantly because they can get other competitors cars that do have it. In this price range, it would be inexcusable to not offer it.

The Seville / STS used to be a huge seller here. it doesn't sell here anymore because the AWD option on the STS is rare and expensive if you find it.

Yet, tons of Devilles / DTS

Just about every new G35 or IS / GS and many of the 3 series and C class that sell around here have the AWD badges on them. As far as Audi goes, i'd bet 90% of the Audis that are on the road here are Quattros.

I agree there is room for the DTS in the line-up. Keep it FWD you risk pissing off to many VERY loyal customers. Just give us a new FWD platform and a 6spd auto and keep the N* around 300hp maybe a lil more and pricing down they will still sell. The idea of a FWD luxury car still has its appeal. Trust me.

Edited January 25, 2007 by regfootball

[maxximus1]

DTS should remain as a fwd, this is a cruiser car. I think that if you want to race a Caddy at a stoplight get a CTS or an STS.

Besides, arent AWD or RWD more of a gas guzzler anyway?

[Flybrian]

Besides, arent AWD or RWD more of a gas guzzler anyway?

AWD, yes, by virtue of all four wheels turning instead of two. RWD, not so much difference in economy, but slightly more power lost through the driveshaft.

[balthazar]

>>"...slightly more power lost through the driveshaft."<<

This is something that would need to be proven thru pointed testing; I don't see the driveshaft or it's U-joints themselves contributing anything to parasitic loss. If a shaft is aluminum or carbon fiber- the weight is negligable.

Contrarily, I've always assumed the 'turns' the power thrust of a transaxle has to take in many cases contributes notably to parasitic loss, as opposed to the 'straight-thru' design of a typical RWD powertrain. I realize we're not talking exhaust flow here, but still...

Edited January 25, 2007 by balthazar

[regfootball]

as far as I have seen from real world posters on the 500, the AWD and FWD get the same mpg. Many of the cars with on demand light duty AWD get close to the same regardless.

[AM6_Cutlass]

DTS is my favorite current Cadillac. I love that it's big, FWD, can be ordered with a bench seat, and is the last American car offered with a blue interior....and it's beautiful . If only it had a 6-speed auto and fold down back seat, it would be perfect. I just hope they still make something comparable when I can finally afford one. Old school rocks

[ral1960]

Anyone have those wheelbases in inches?

SWB is 114.7", LWB is 118.5"

Divide millimeters by 10 (move the decimal over 1), then divide by 2.54 to get inches.

Edited January 26, 2007 by ral1960

[97regalGS]

SWB is 114.7", LWB is 118.5"

Divide millimeters by 10 (move the decimal over 1), then divide by 2.54 to get inches.

or just use a metric conversion calculator

[ponchoman49]

To be perfectly frank (sorry Nos), the DTS is my favorite Cadillac, next to the new CTS. The current STS is, somehow, just too bland and unexciting. The rear end has like zero style, it is way too technical. The DTS is commanding, elegant, romantic and authoritative, everything the senior Cadillac should be. I am all for this new, Euro flavoured Cadillac performance image, but there should always be room in the lineup for a car like the DTS. It always turns my head.

I agree 100%. There is nothing wrong at all with the DTS that a 6 speed automatic upgrade and maybe a few more ponies wouldn't fix. The STS is dull with it's plain slab side styling. People that buy a Cadillac want chrome, expansive proportions, elegance and flair. When I see a DTS going down the road this is what I see. When I see a STS or SRX, I see plain, monotone German or Asian and thats fine for the sporty driver. But id Cadillac wants to keep sales up they will always need something like the DTS/Deville in there lineup.

[gm4life]

don't kid yourself. these people don't care if it's FWD, RWD, AWD or one wheel drive. they buy it because it is a Cadillac. you could convert it to RWD tonite and sales wouldn't miss a beat. in fact, they might increase as people who avoid the stigma of FWD might buy one.

Actually my dad when he was alive until 95 would not buy the Cadillac Fleetwood for that reason, it was RWD. So he had a '89 and '92 Deville the one I had. Right now he would have a white-gold 2006/7 DTS Performance Pack in the driveway if he was around. He gave me great taste in cars. FWD vs. RWD here in the snow-belt makes a difference most people don't know/give a f*ck about what tq. steer is. The DTS just needs a 6spd auto and some interior refinemenets would be nice. It is my favorite current GM car. (Yes when asked if I could have one car it is a Cadillac DTS Performance in White-Gold. It has a lil bit of everything!) If you lived in Texas you might not care but in Iowa, and other mid-western states people care.

[big blue]

Actually my dad when he was alive until 95 would not buy the Cadillac Fleetwood for that reason, it was RWD. So he had a '89 and '92 Deville the one I had. Right now he would have a white-gold 2006/7 DTS Performance Pack in the driveway if he was around. He gave me great taste in cars. FWD vs. RWD here in the snow-belt makes a difference most people don't know/give a f*ck about what tq. steer is. The DTS just needs a 6spd auto and some interior refinemenets would be nice. It is my favorite current GM car. (Yes when asked if I could have one car it is a Cadillac DTS Performance in White-Gold. It has a lil bit of everything!) If you lived in Texas you might not care but in Iowa, and other mid-western states people care.

Have to agree here. My parents have lived in Minnesota/Iowa and have gone through the winters there in the RWD 70's cars of yore. Even though we live in Texas now, they still prefer FWD just because of the frustration they went through in their earlier years with RWD and any sort of snow/ice. Many people in the northern half of the country give FWD a much higher priority than people down south.

[bcs296]

Times are different now.

Traction/stability control are huge steps forward. Combine with some real good snow tires and to me, the FWD advantage disappears.

[gm4life]

Even with that front wheels still tend to have more weight over them therefore better traction.

[Jazzhead]

That's right - traction control and the like are just devices, that can protect against driver error. But a FWD car is inherently better in the snow than RWD - for the weight reason cited by gm4life if anything else. I feel confident driving a FWD through snow - I can manuever it through light snow easily and effortlessly - and I've never much felt the need for AWD (although I just bought a Jeep so I'm looking forward to my first blizzard with a truck, ever!)

[K.C.]

Getting off the topic of traction or the lack thereof. We test drove a new DTS with Performance Pkg. It was black with the "Tehama" leather. This leather is amazing. Its a rich chocolate brown and is very, very soft. Feel like butta, like butta I tell ya! Definitely worth the cost!!!!!!

[Flybrian]

Again, I really, really hope GM is considering the same things we are in this discussion. If a car is to be dropped without a successor, it is not this one. To repeat, a 6-speed auto and a 320-350hp Northstar are pretty much all this car needs to continue to be relevant in the market. A little more cohesive styling and more goodies inside a la the DTS Platinum would make it a standout against the overpriced imports and Flintstone-era Town Car.

[turbo200]

Again, I really, really hope GM is considering the same things we are in this discussion. If a car is to be dropped without a successor, it is not this one. To repeat, a 6-speed auto and a 320-350hp Northstar are pretty much all this car needs to continue to be relevant in the market. A little more cohesive styling and more goodies inside a la the DTS Platinum would make it a standout against the overpriced imports and Flintstone-era Town Car.

A new platform going into the next decade is an absolute necessity, along with a better image for the car. It's too dowdy and pimp-mobile looking right now; even though both those things work in its favor and the proportions work on it.....going into the next decade it will need to change. Something that still evokes the same feelings, but thoroughly modern; right now this car can barely justify its price tag as the same basic car is underneath the Lucerne, and its competitors have all left it behind, now think of it five years down the line? it'll be the same situation as the current impala; build it on Zeta and feature modern driving dynamics [read: not stiff, but comfortable and controlled like an S-class or the Lexus GS/LS with good direct steering] as well as an all-new design that wasn't so dependent on length, add a fully shocking and beautiful interior, tons of luxo items, an incredible sound system and maybe some cruiser features not found on other cars, rear seat DVD, rear seat massager, tri zone climate control, reclining rear seats, that would be sweet.

This argument is moot though, G-body will die, and according to people on this board, GM will build DTS on Zeta.

[EDIT: I know you stated you didn't have a preference for RWD or FWD, I just found out, but I wanted to steer the conversation back in a more productive zone; DTS has to be RWD, and has to be Zeta, only because GM doesn't have another viable platform unless you make it Sigma which would just be STS.]

Edited January 28, 2007 by turbo200

[Flybrian]

[EDIT: I know you stated you didn't have a preference for RWD or FWD, I just found out, but I wanted to steer the conversation back in a more productive zone]

Which is why I kinda dropped it. But, speaking of which, a LWB Zeta chassis would be the perfect underpinning for this car. Not as expensive as Sigma and perhaps not nearly as 'taut' (not needed in this segment, IMO), but this would leave the budget open to include some real mind-blowing Cadillac features - full-cabin suede headliner, authentic stainless steel and chrome interior accents, rear passenger footrests, real ashtrays all around, rear passenger vanity mirrors, power trunk pull-down, etc.

[gm4life]

It needs the Chi and a 6spd auto!

[ZL-1]

It needs the Chi and a 6spd auto!

Isn't Chi dead?

[gm4life]

They can bring it back, thats what they said about the Zeta.

[97regalGS]

They can bring it back, thats what they said about the Zeta.

the only difference being that Holden already had a RWD platform that could be used/modified, and, there was a ton of discussion/speculation amongs the 'insiders' about what was really going on with RWD for NA. neither of those two things exist at at this time as it relates to Chi.

(lambda was supposed to have other applications - minivan specifically, but in typical GM fashion the they missed the timeline and over-spent the budget. i don't think that lambda was ever considered as a FWD car platform).

maybe when Epsilon 3, the swiss army knives of vehicle platforms, debuts with it's FWD, AWD, RWD possibilities and wheelbases stretching from 90" to 135" a large FWD car will once again adorn GM dealers.

[gm4life]

the only difference being that Holden already had a RWD platform that could be used/modified, and, there was a ton of discussion/speculation amongs the 'insiders' about what was really going on with RWD for NA. neither of those two things exist at at this time as it relates to Chi.

(lambda was supposed to have other applications - minivan specifically, but in typical GM fashion the they missed the timeline and over-spent the budget. i don't think that lambda was ever considered as a FWD car platform).

maybe when Epsilon 3, the swiss army knives of vehicle platforms, debuts with it's FWD, AWD, RWD possibilities and wheelbases stretching from 90" to 135" a large FWD car will once again adorn GM dealers.

I am just speaking from a sales stand-point.

[97regalGS]

I am just speaking from a sales stand-point.

well they could. but don't lose any sleep waiting for it.

[gm4life]

I am not I just want good sales.