DTS has still got it

[Flybrian]

Cadillac's Old School DTS
by Matt Vella

The Good: Smooth ride, good acceleration, comfy interior, reasonably priced options
The Bad: Crude parking system, good deal of float in the suspension
The Bottom Line: Built for comfort, and that's just fine

Cadillac's best-selling model last year wasn't the zippy, entry-level CTS. Nor was it the unabashedly gaudy Escalade sport-utility vehicle. And it certainly wasn't the funky-fresh SRX crossover. No, Cadillac's best-seller was a model with all the sex-appeal of an orthopedic shoe—the Old School, full-sized DTS.

If an XXL front-wheel drive sedan that can still remember voting for Eisenhower sounds like a bore, that's because, well, it is. All the excitement in the auto industry over the past 12 months has been in up-powered sport sedans, sexy roadsters, high-tech hybrids, and retro flights of fancy, not grandpa-style cruisers with sciatic comfort at the top of the feature list.

So how did Cadillac manage to sell 58,224 of these last year? It's because the DTS, though not at the forefront of any automotive vogue I can think of, is a sterling example of large American luxury. Indeed, the DTS is the last of the company's models built for comfort and not for speed. And behind the wheel of this well-heeled road yacht one could get used to that sort of comfort.

Link to Full Review @ BusinessWeekOnline

[gm4life]

That is so good to hear. Those G-platforms make darn fine cars don't you think fly? Eat that Lexus.

EDIT- When will it get the needed 6T80E HD tranny, with manual shift mode? That is all it needs then it is perfect!

Edited January 20, 2007 by gm4life

[big blue]

Nothing like good old TLC from your car while you sit inside all nice and smooth.

[regfootball]

we all need to remember that caddy needs to continue to build a car like this because it guarantees caddy stays in business.

[ellives]

That is so good to hear. Those G-platforms make darn fine cars don't you think fly? Eat that Lexus.

EDIT- When will it get the needed 6T80E HD tranny, with manual shift mode? That is all it needs then it is perfect!

RWD is what it needs.

[bobo]

Old school is right. The DTS has its detractors and its fans. I share the view that that the STS and DTS should be combined into a larger, slightly more upscale Sigma than the current STS, and those who want a cushy ride should look towards Buick.

[pow]

we all need to remember that caddy needs to continue to build a car like this because it guarantees caddy stays in business.

Exactly. This is their version of the ES350. Enthusiasts hate it, but consumers buy 'em. It's the same reason why Arnages (old-money customers) coexist with Flying Spurs (new-money customers) in Bentley dealers.

[ehaase]

I am curious what retail sales of the DTS are compared to retail sales of the CTS and STS.

[Flybrian]

Most recent I have is from mid-2006:

Retail | Rental Fleet | Total

CTS

22,953 | 3293 | 26,529

STS

11,378 | 433 | 12,004

DeVille/DTS

20,766 | 8751 | 31,383

[gm4life]

No they will NOT switch it to RWD. Trust me.

[ehaase]

No they will NOT switch it to RWD. Trust me.

But GM has no large FWD platform planned to replace either the G or W bodies.

[regfootball]

Exactly. This is their version of the ES350. Enthusiasts hate it, but consumers buy 'em. It's the same reason why Arnages (old-money customers) coexist with Flying Spurs (new-money customers) in Bentley dealers.

yup. agree.

folks in the snow climates LOVE the FWD too.

They should make AWD standard on the DTS then.

Edited January 21, 2007 by regfootball

[ClassyEldo]

In my opinion, this article shows more evidence that if Cadillac Motor Car Division is going to drop either the STS or the DTS, it ought to definitely be the STS! The DTS represents what Cadillac is best known for---large luxurious cars! The '08 CTS is completely gorgeous, and next it will need the various models (V-Series and Coupe and Convertible, possibly a Wagon, especially for the overseas markets); however, it is too close to the specs and appearance of the STS, even the STS-L. The DTS is simply "plush" and unabashadly pure Cadillac. The upgrades to the styling were nicely done, and they have been well-received by the automotive press and buyers, and it was really only a minor re-fresh. Cadillac needs to re-design a next-generation DTS, keeping many of the well recognized design cues. If they do that, a large Coupe would be great, too. They need to do marketing analysis to determine whether it should be RWD with an AWD option (probably), or remain FWD--the buyers who buy it simply expect the engineering to be excellent, and they would accept either iteration as long as it remains true to its heritage, full-sized, ride-isolating, plush luxury. It may upset the performance enthusiasts, but they should be steered towards the CTS vehicles, XLR's and possibly, a performance equipped DTS. (Just my 0.02 cents!--from a tried and true Cadillac enthusiast!)

[Flybrian]

There is certainly a place for a well-excecuted $45-60 DTS and DTS-L in the Cadillac lineup, front- or rear-wheel drive.

[Intrepidation]

The interior looks almost the same as the Lucerne's...the Lucerne has a nicer exterior...and it's cheaper. I think the DTS is the ugliest Cadillac, and it's an old Fart's car. They need to redesign the STS and make it bigger and even more luxurious. Keep this if they must, but don't rely on it if they expect to gain credibility. On a side note, I looked at an edmunds road test of teh STS...they thought it was an excellent car with only a few minor interior glitches...why does everyone hate it?

[Cory Wolfe]

I actually like the DTS. It's classy. No, it's not sleek or sporty, but it's not trying to be. I do think with RWD, more luxurious features, and styling more in line with the CTS, while still being stately would be Cadillac's best bet. The STS isn't bad, but it's basically just a very bland CTS with slightly more room and slightly more features. It's no surprise how it sells.

Edited January 21, 2007 by blackviper8891

[regfootball]

the next STS and DTS here should be the same car basically. One tunes for high perf, one for high luxury. the styling should be palatable for both. Kind of the way the Seville used to come in SLS and STS versions. It should be a large car.

I'd bet you big time that if they updated the USA STS like the chinese one (more room and nice interior) it would sell a lot better. Plus, they don't even really advertise the STS anyways.

The STS would be a the perfect car for my dad, he's like 66. He likes the current CTS and doesn't really want the formal looking DTS anymore.

Edited January 21, 2007 by regfootball

[VenSeattle]

The interior looks almost the same as the Lucerne's...the Lucerne has a nicer exterior...and it's cheaper. I think the DTS is the ugliest Cadillac, and it's an old Fart's car. They need to redesign the STS and make it bigger and even more luxurious. Keep this if they must, but don't rely on it if they expect to gain credibility. On a side note, I looked at an edmunds road test of teh STS...they thought it was an excellent car with only a few minor interior glitches...why does everyone hate it?

As someone who likes both the DTS & Lucerne, the DTS interior puts the Lucerne to shame. If GM was serious about motivating DTS buyers to Buick, that wouldn't be the case. They should be on par. I agree with Fly... with the new CTS being similar to the 5-series in size, a vehicle should merge the DTS & STS role into one vehicle. Whether making it the STS/SLS and moving DTS to Ultra Luxury status or vice-versa... they shouldn’t occupy the same price range for much longer.

[ocnblu]

To be perfectly frank (sorry Nos), the DTS is my favorite Cadillac, next to the new CTS. The current STS is, somehow, just too bland and unexciting. The rear end has like zero style, it is way too technical. The DTS is commanding, elegant, romantic and authoritative, everything the senior Cadillac should be. I am all for this new, Euro flavoured Cadillac performance image, but there should always be room in the lineup for a car like the DTS. It always turns my head.

[K.C.]

My husband owns a Deville DTS (ok, its a 2000) and the car is unflappable. After 7 year it has no squeaks, no rattles, no virbation. The car has only been in the shop for scheduled maintenance and there is no rust on it (that says something living up in the the Great White North). Although the DTS is not my favorite Cadillac (CTS-V), it certainly is a great car and I hope they continue to evolve this model into something more sophisticated. It's no surprise to me that the DTS outsells the rest of Cadillac's lineup.

Right now we are in the market for a new car and the 2007 DTS is on our list of cars to test drive.

[Sixty8panther]

No they will NOT switch it to RWD. Trust me.

What are you basing this on a Honda Press kit?

[gm4life]

There is still a large group of people buying these and like the current FWD setup. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Sixty8panther]

There is still a large group of people buying these and like the current FWD setup. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It's broke alright. If this thing was RWD it would have 80% of the Car-based Limousine market even with

its unibody structure.... The Town Car looks like @$$ next to this car. I maske fun of the current DTS for

the lame Alphabet Soup name, New Yorker rear end and FWD mechanicals/proportions but it's a very

handsome car all things considered, on the highway at 70mph it looks downright commanding.

[gm4life]

Well I would vote for a new FWD large car platform. For the DTS and Lucerne and 6spd autos.

[Flybrian]

The latest FWD large car platform in the works (Chi) was cancelled/shelved awhile ago and with waning demand, who knows?

Would it be possible to come up with something off the Lambda platform? Possibly, I don't really know, but I would really hate to see the DTS dropped.

I know alot of people support the STS for what it could be, but the Seville lost its identity when it switched to the Sigma platform. Unless you want a RWD V8 or AWD Cadillac, why buy a Seville? Thanks to the CTS, there was already scant reason to justify a V6 STS; later this year, there will be no reason to buy a V6 STS or an AWD STS. Even with the Chinese restyle, its not a stunning car. The DTS has far more presence, a more tangible customer base, and its never tried to be something its not. Plus, it has far more potential now that the CTS has grown in size. The STS by comparison occupies space and rots on the lots because there is no reason to buy one.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Only time will tell how this turns out. What if the STS went up in size to 197-200 inches into BMW 7/Lexus LS territory and the DTS went back up to its old size or the Lincoln Town Car size?

That would move STS away from CTS and put DTS back where it once once still doing what it does not appealing to a certain buyer?

They would have each segment covered.

But any way...

I do not understand why they won't at least put a stand up hood ornament on the DTS with the bench seat. I do not like the headlights because there is only one headlight on each side of the grille. I prefer a quad headlamp design. It looks bug eyed just like that GMC Yukon which also has one headlight on each side of the grille too. They do not offer digital gauges on this car other that small speedometer under the "analog" cluster". The seat controls are on the side of the seat instead of being on the door.

I think it is sad that GM and others do not see there is a market for this kind of car like DTS still. They just need tp update them and keep them contemporary. The Lucerne and Lincoln Town Car and Grand Marquis and Impala are all we have now. This is one of the reasons why I drive Oldsmobiles and allthough they may be older, they still work well and do their job.

Not everyone wants or needs a slick looking car with bucket seats and a floor shifter and a spoiler on the trunk or a sporty look trying to compensate for some other short coming in life.

Sorry... Just ranting here because DTS does what is supposed to do.

[Sixty8panther]

Nothing disgusts me more than the thouht of ANOTHER big car from GM w/ FWD.

Mount the motor longitudinally AT LEAST if it has to be FWD, like all 1967 - 1981 Cadillacs.

[97regalGS]

as credible a car as the DTS is, get used to the fact that this is it's farewell tour in it's current FWD format.

that luxury market that Cadillac aspires to lead does not favor FWD. you can argue all you want about the pros/cons of FWD, but the market has spoken. and for Cadillac to be truly world class, it has to adjust.

my thoughts-

look for the CTS to continue to climb the luxury food chain and compete with the 530i etc.

look for a new smaller rwd platform for the USA version of the BLS/BTS (or whatever they call it)

look for the STS and DTS to merge onto zeta, thus differentiating that car from the STS

look for a new platform to come out in the next decade for a premium luxury car for cadillac to truly go head to head with the SClass and 7Series etc

[trinacriabob]

I really like the DTS. I was oblivious to them but, on vacation in Pensacola FL last June, I checked some out at the Cadillac dealership there.

It really hits the "sweet spot"...that of being a large Cadillac but still having styling that isn't bombastic and bloated. It has become rather svelte for as large as it is, with nicely tapered contours. And it shows that Cadillac has modernized and moved with the times, bringing its flagship right along with them.

I'm such a die-hard W-body consumer but, if full-sizes were my bag, I would love to own one of these. I couldn't think of a nicer road-trip car.

I thought the STS might make a big splash and it hasn't, so this is the epitome of Cadillac IMO.

[VenSeattle]

The latest FWD large car platform in the works (Chi) was cancelled/shelved awhile ago and with waning demand, who knows?

Would it be possible to come up with something off the Lambda platform? Possibly, I don't really know, but I would really hate to see the DTS dropped.

Let's not forget it was recently announced that GME was working on a "larger platform" for the Insignia. Did we ever determine that this was referring to Epsilon II or is it a completely different/larger FWD platform? Could the US market use it as a premium FWD/AWD platform for large vehicles?

If this is referring to Epsilon II:

Toyota can use the Camry platform for the large Avalon and luxury ES350. Why can't GM use the larger Epsilon II platform for FWD/AWD Lucerne/DTS replacements?

[ZL-1]

my thoughts-

look for the CTS to continue to climb the luxury food chain and compete with the 530i etc.

look for a new smaller rwd platform for the USA version of the BLS/BTS (or whatever they call it)

look for the STS and DTS to merge onto zeta, thus differentiating that car from the STS

look for a new platform to come out in the next decade for a premium luxury car for cadillac to truly go head to head with the SClass and 7Series etc

I agree, with the exception of the two large car platforms. I think we'll only see the DTS/STS merge into a single vehicle line, maybe in a 'Sigma 2' that can accomodate larger vehicles.

[97regalGS]

I agree, with the exception of the two large car platforms. I think we'll only see the DTS/STS merge into a single vehicle line, maybe in a 'Sigma 2' that can accomodate larger vehicles.

you don't think Cadillac will take the next step to truly compete with the S and 7? or do you think the merged sigma2 can go head to head with them?

[Robert Hall]

you don't think Cadillac will take the next step to truly compete with the S and 7? or do you think the merged sigma2 can go head to head with them?

Maybe they will use the Zeta platform for the next DTS?

[Sixty8panther]

Maybe they will use the Zeta platform for the next DTS?

Sure, I don't think that's unrealistic.

OR

Hown about this quantum leap in logic....

Use the Escalade's BOF tooling to make a lower, slightly lighter

BOF car that has the REAL potential to pick up where those

500cu. in. powered, RWD, BOF land yachts left off in the mid

1970s. Used to be a time when luxury cars like Cadillacs,

Packards, Lincolns & Duesenbergs were made on frames that

resembled a 3 ton truck steel spine than a unibody 1985 Honda

Accord cross section that consists of some overlapping pieces

of sheetmetal for a suspension "hard point".

I swear the more I hear about modern cars the more repulsed I

am by them... I want to embrace the new GM, I just hope that

logic returns to the engineering departments soon.

On a side note it's lookign more and more like the new Supra

will be a (pillarless for you smartguys) hardtop, every Japanese

spy photo or sketch in the past year or so seems to show this

so at least it seems like hardtops, one of the coolest styling

trends of the past 100 years, are roaring back with a vengance!

So can we see a 2 door hardtop full size Cadillac soon?

[Robert Hall]

Sure, I don't think that's unrealistic.

OR

Hown about this quantum leap in logic....

Use the Escalade's BOF tooling to make a lower, slightly lighter

BOF car that has the REAL potential to pick up where those

500cu. in. powered, RWD, BOF land yachts left off in the mid

1970s.

That's insane..a car on a truck/SUV platform? In the 21st century? No way..

[z28luvr01]

as credible a car as the DTS is, get used to the fact that this is it's farewell tour in it's current FWD format.

that luxury market that Cadillac aspires to lead does not favor FWD. you can argue all you want about the pros/cons of FWD, but the market has spoken. and for Cadillac to be truly world class, it has to adjust.

my thoughts-

look for the CTS to continue to climb the luxury food chain and compete with the 530i etc.

look for a new smaller rwd platform for the USA version of the BLS/BTS (or whatever they call it)

look for the STS and DTS to merge onto zeta, thus differentiating that car from the STS

look for a new platform to come out in the next decade for a premium luxury car for cadillac to truly go head to head with the SClass and 7Series etc

This sounds good. The CTS grew to allow ample room for the arrival of the B series to go against the BMW 3. Hopefully the next B series is a better effort than the current reskinned 9-3.

I'd even add to your scenario to say that eventually the Sigma cars could get absorbed into Zeta (cheaper, better platform = more profit) once the Holden and GMNA cars are using the newer version of Zeta. I'd like to see future iterations of Zeta support the dimensions required for a 7/S competitor, with the current short-wheelbase Zetas moving to Alpha, rather than dedicate a separate platform for it.

[ZL-1]

you don't think Cadillac will take the next step to truly compete with the S and 7? or do you think the merged sigma2 can go head to head with them?

I think Cadillac will go after the S and the 7, but I also think they will do it in size and content before price. A vehicle priced too high might (I don't want to use the word 'would') be a flop, because Cadillac doesn't have the pricing power MB and BMW have. It would also divert development money from a NG STS/DTS that can (and hopefully will) have the positive impact the '08 CTS has created so far.

[97regalGS]

This sounds good. The CTS grew to allow ample room for the arrival of the B series to go against the BMW 3. Hopefully the next B series is a better effort than the current reskinned 9-3.

I'd even add to your scenario to say that eventually the Sigma cars could get absorbed into Zeta (cheaper, better platform = more profit) once the Holden and GMNA cars are using the newer version of Zeta. I'd like to see future iterations of Zeta support the dimensions required for a 7/S competitor, with the current short-wheelbase Zetas moving to Alpha, rather than dedicate a separate platform for it.

platforms aside, Cadillac gets a true RWD 3series competitor (not the Ep. BLS). The FWD DTS goes away. And Cadillac gets to move upmarket to compete with the LS, S and 7.

[Flybrian]

If Zeta can be made to be as flexible as we're hoping, its a bright day indeed.

FWD or RWD, a car the size and with (at minimum) the luxury of the current DTS needs to survive over the misplaced STS.

[Z-06]

There is certainly a place for a well-excecuted $45-60 DTS and DTS-L in the Cadillac lineup, front- or rear-wheel drive.

Well put Fly. I hope GM people are listening. I think Caddy does really need a DTS. I drove it during AutoShow in Motion and I was impressed. I think it is well executed.

[gm4life]

I agree there is room for the DTS in the line-up. Keep it FWD you risk pissing off to many VERY loyal customers. Just give us a new FWD platform and a 6spd auto and keep the N* around 300hp maybe a lil more and pricing down they will still sell. The idea of a FWD luxury car still has its appeal. Trust me.

[bcs296]

No they will NOT switch it to RWD. Trust me.

Hey, here's a news flash for you.

FWD is dead.

I think it should be considered that most of these Q tips that are buying the DTS were also driving the Deville back when it was RWD.

Edited January 23, 2007 by bcs296

[Robert Hall]

Hey, here's a news flash for you.

FWD is dead.

I think it should be considered that most of these Q tips that are buying the DTS were also driving the Deville back when it was RWD.

I doubt if we will see any new GM FWD models bigger than the Epsilons... once the Ws and Gs are gone, that's it for large FWD, I think...

[97regalGS]

I doubt if we will see any new GM FWD models bigger than the Epsilons... once the Ws and Gs are gone, that's it for large FWD, I think...

well that's it for now. who knows what the future brings.

[turbo200]

I believe a RWD DTS with an emphasis on comfort and luxury, but with a controlled ride and direct steering and overall proportions and size to mimic the Commodore is exactly what the doctor prescribed for a 38-49k ES alternative. A nice comfy big Caddy like all the old schoolers want wouldn't be a bad idea. I still think the CTS is good for much of what that fan base wants, but if they want a larger rear seat and more trunk space, then let em have it. If they want something more classically dynamic, smooth and soft but controlled, then a Zeta DTS will be perfect for them. I do beleive it will be overlapping plenty of other cars like the Lucerne and possibly Impala at the higher end, but whatever I guess. Everyone argues Cadillac must retain the DTS buyers, how many of those [real retail buyers] are there left anyways? And did we decide the new CTS wouldn't be able to absorb those buyers? Anyways, with the smaller B-series car, a CTS in the middle, and the STS as the [eventual] S-class competitor-range topper, DTS seems like a great fit in between the last two.

Of course the new DTS would continue with Cadillac polarizing design theme in and out [is it really polarizing anymore? no? maybe they need to try that again], and should have a fully modern interior with all the best class and luxury. I smell a hit....

[Flybrian]

And did we decide the new CTS wouldn't be able to absorb those buyers?

Not everyone wants a BMW. Some put comfort and a smooth ride over on-rails handling but would rather not sacrifice luxury (Impala) or brand snobbery (Lucerne). DTS would be their car.

BLS

CTS

DTS

STS

A bit of a reversal in the last two depending on whom you ask, but it works. The DTS would be off a 'less-premium' platform, but would slot nicely between the CTS and up-upmarket STS (or whatever you call it). A car like this within the $42-60k price range would truly be an American-only phenomenon, but it would sell nonetheless.

How to deal with the perceived overlap you ask? The G-body cars handled it well as long as you talked about the higher-end trims. A similar breakdown would follow:

Impala - SWB Zeta - highest volume, popularly-equipped, most generic styling - versus Charger/300/Maxima

G8 - SWB Zeta - lower volume, performance-oriented, polorizing muscular styling - versus SRT/BMW in a budget muscle sense

Lucerne - LWB Zeta - middle/high volume, premium-equipped, progressive but tasteful styling - versus soft luxury cars

DTS - LWB & ext Zeta - low/middle volume, luxuriously-equipped, dynamic A&S styling - versus Town Car, lower end of high-lux cars

It could work. There's export/commonality potential for half of those cars instantly, maybe even the DTS depending on how it looks. I hope it ends up that way. I know I'd be interested immediately in three of those four cars.

[97regalGS]

Not everyone wants a BMW. Some put comfort and a smooth ride over on-rails handling but would rather not sacrifice luxury (Impala) or brand snobbery (Lucerne). DTS would be their car.

BLS

CTS

DTS

STS

A bit of a reversal in the last two depending on whom you ask, but it works. The DTS would be off a 'less-premium' platform, but would slot nicely between the CTS and up-upmarket STS (or whatever you call it). A car like this within the $42-60k price range would truly be an American-only phenomenon, but it would sell nonetheless.

How to deal with the perceived overlap you ask? The G-body cars handled it well as long as you talked about the higher-end trims. A similar breakdown would follow:

Impala - SWB Zeta - highest volume, popularly-equipped, most generic styling - versus Charger/300/Maxima

G8 - SWB Zeta - lower volume, performance-oriented, polorizing muscular styling - versus SRT/BMW in a budget muscle sense

Lucerne - LWB Zeta - middle/high volume, premium-equipped, progressive but tasteful styling - versus soft luxury cars

DTS - LWB & ext Zeta - low/middle volume, luxuriously-equipped, dynamic A&S styling - versus Town Car, lower end of high-lux cars

It could work. There's export/commonality potential for half of those cars instantly, maybe even the DTS depending on how it looks. I hope it ends up that way. I know I'd be interested immediately in three of those four cars.

do we have any factual information re: zeta wheelbase range? ie. is a SWB and a LWB zeta possible? if so, what are the limits?

[ZL-1]

do we have any factual information re: zeta wheelbase range? ie. is a SWB and a LWB zeta possible? if so, what are the limits?

VE are the SWB versions (Commodore/Berlina/Calais) and WM are the LWB versions (Statesman and Caprice). I don't know if NA Zeta matches the Holdens exactly or not. Edited January 24, 2007 by ZL-1

[The O.C.]

we all need to remember that caddy needs to continue to build a car like this because it guarantees caddy stays in business.

That's a sad statement to make......guess that doesn't say much for the rest of Caddy's lineup, does it...?

Wonder what rental/fleet percentages are for the DTS? Anyone?

Edited January 24, 2007 by The O.C.

[The O.C.]

Most recent I have is from mid-2006:

Retail | Rental Fleet | Total

CTS

22,953 | 3293 | 26,529

STS

11,378 | 433 | 12,004

DeVille/DTS

20,766 | 8751 | 31,383

28% fleet for Deville. That's pathetic for any model within a "luxury" brand......

CTS is the car that should be applauded here......on the basis of the strength of it's retail sales over both STS and DTS.....