Honda and Acura vehicles said to overstate mileage by up to 4%

[BrewSwillis]

"Plaintiffs allege that odometers in certain Honda and Acura automobiles overstate mileage by up to 4%. This alleged overstatement is claimed to diminish warranty coverage and reduce the miles available under automobile leases. Plaintiffs seek relief for a purported nationwide class under the Federal Odometer Act and the Texas implied warranty of merchantability. Defendants deny all allegations of wrongdoing asserted."

More info:

http://www.odosettlementinfo.com/Vaughn%20...ed%20Notice.pdf

Thanks to "oh2o" from Allpar.com

[sciguy_0504]

I'll bet $1 there's an idiot claiming overstated mileage while seriously forgetting where he's driven.

[Northstar]

I don't understand how they can prove this... do they count backing out of driveways, driving through a parking lot, etc., when the figure out how much they've driven?

[big blue]

It was also discussed on the TOV forums if people are curious.

Link

[BrewSwillis]

People....people......it's the car not calculating mileage accurately. The odometer says they've gone 104 miles when they've really only gone 100 miles. That really adds up after a while. Maybe they've been doing this for many years, and that's why people think Japanese cars last so long?

What's sad is the terms that the lawsuit agrees to. The lawsuit agree to terms that Honda just has to make up only 1% more on the mileage disparity. I would be pissed, and not agree to those weak terms just so some sleazy lawyer can make a ton of money.

[Northstar]

But how do they know they've only gone 100 miles is my question? I guess if numerous people are reporting it it's probably true.

This would also make the MPG look better...

[AAS]

But how do they know they've only gone 100 miles is my question?...

Find a highway with mile markers.

[BrewSwillis]

But how do they know they've only gone 100 miles is my question? I guess if numerous people are reporting it it's probably true.

This would also make the MPG look better...

Take 2 or 3 different cars the same distance and compare odometer readings?

[Cory Wolfe]

Course... if people have wheels larger or smaller than what's intended, that could certainly mess with mileage. Either way, this sounds like a stupid lawsuit.

[Flybrian]

Yeah, this is something that has to be difficult to prove given that no odometer is certifiably accurate nor are they meant to be.

[siegen]

lol, what a ghey lawsuit.

[Northstar]

Find a highway with mile markers.

I suppose, but those aren't perfectly accurate either. It also depends how much you change lanes/which lane you are in though that's not adding much distance.

Take 2 or 3 different cars the same distance and compare odometer readings?

I don't think any car is perfectly accurate. What if one car reads that you've gone 10 miles, and one reads that you've gone 10.4? I think that could be very possible.

Finally, if they're so worried about their warranty expiring early, they're only losing 1440 miles. So, unless this problem occurs between their odo reading 36001 miles and about 37500 miles, it doesn't even matter. They should have their car checked out right before the warranty expires to make sure nothing is about to go wrong, anyways.

[BrewSwillis]

I suppose, but those aren't perfectly accurate either. It also depends how much you change lanes/which lane you are in though that's not adding much distance.

I don't think any car is perfectly accurate. What if one car reads that you've gone 10 miles, and one reads that you've gone 10.4? I think that could be very possible.

Finally, if they're so worried about their warranty expiring early, they're only losing 1440 miles. So, unless this problem occurs between their odo reading 36001 miles and about 37500 miles, it doesn't even matter. They should have their car checked out right before the warranty expires to make sure nothing is about to go wrong, anyways.

That's why I said three cars. I don't think a car's odometer should be off almost a half a mile, every 10 miles.

1440 miles over their lease limit is $288.00 (using $0.20 per mile). They are potentially ripping all of their lease customers off at almost $300 a pop.

[regfootball]

hondas never break down, so why would they care about the warranty.

[Variance]

That's why I said three cars. I don't think a car's odometer should be off almost a half a mile, every 10 miles.

1440 miles over their lease limit is $288.00 (using $0.20 per mile). They are potentially ripping all of their lease customers off at almost $300 a pop.

4% over is an acceptable tolerance.

And accuracy aside, if you see the odometer read 36,000 and your lease agreement charges for every mile over that, it's still your fault/problem regardless. It's not like Honda is adding on miles to odometers after the fact.

[ToniCipriani]

Are the cars involved rice burners?

[BrewSwillis]

4% over is an acceptable tolerance.

And accuracy aside, if you see the odometer read 36,000 and your lease agreement charges for every mile over that, it's still your fault/problem regardless. It's not like Honda is adding on miles to odometers after the fact.

It looks like 4% is quite high:

According to one calibrator merchant:

The speedometers and odometer on.... modern cars, are calibrated from the factory with a plus 1-2 percent error. This means that actual speed or recorded mileage is actually lower than that indicated on the speedometer and odometer.

Some organizations, when testing out cars, will examine speedometer/odometer error. Here are 5 foreign models tested in 2001:

Subaru Impreza WRX 3.2%

Ford Focus 2.1%

Chrysler PT Cruiser 1.07%

Toyota Condor 2400 1.54%

Volvo V70 T5 0.14%

From: http://truckandbarter.com/mt/archives/2004...e_accuracy.html

They are still cheating you. If they claim that you can drive 10,400 miles on your lease, you may actually only be able to drive 10,000 miles......with your odometer reading 10,400 miles. I don't see how you can't see that as cheating you?

[Variance]

It looks like 4% is quite high...

Not according to the National Institute of Standard and Technology, it isn't.

T. Tolerances

T.1. To Underregistration and to Overregistration. The tolerances hereinafter prescribed shall be applied to errors of

underregistration and errors of overregistration.

5.53. Odometers

T.2. Tolerance Values. - Except for unloaded trucks, maintenance and acceptance tolerances on odometers shall be 4

percent of the interval under test.

(Amended 1977and 1987)

T.2.1. Tolerances for Unloaded Trucks. - Maintenance and acceptance tolerances on truck odometers shall be 5

percent for underregistration and 3 percent for overregistration of the interval under test.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:w7B_L...lient=firefox-a

They are still cheating you. If they claim that you can drive 10,400 miles on your lease, you may actually only be able to drive 10,000 miles......with your odometer reading 10,400 miles. I don't see how you can't see that as cheating you?

Then I guess every automaker in the world is "cheating" people since none of them are perfectly accurate.

[carman21]

MPG like HP is generally overstated by Japanese and Korean automakers, Europeans state them accurately, and typically Americans especially GM understate them.

[Variance]

MPG like HP is generally overstated by Japanese and Korean automakers, Europeans state them accurately, and typically Americans especially GM understate them.

I don't see that how that can be since MPG for every car sold here is tested for and established by the EPA.

What does that have to do with this, anyway?

[carman21]

While the EPA set guidelines for MPG ratings, automakers may choose to report them at or below the vehicle's actually EPA rating.

Since Asian automakers overstate HP is does not surprise me that MPG is also overstated. I hope that they realize they will get sued or worse if they continue this illegal practice. The 2007 Honda Accord V-6 gets 20/29 chop off 4% and you get 19/28 the Saturn Aura gets 20/28, interesting isn't it? I can't wait to see the REAL ratings for the Japanese automakers when the new EPA MPG system comes out.

[Variance]

While the EPA set guidelines for MPG ratings, automakers may choose to report them at or below the vehicle's actually EPA rating.

Since Asian automakers overstate HP is does not surprise me that MPG is also overstated. I hope that they realize they will get sued or worse if they continue this illegal practice. The 2007 Honda Accord V-6 gets 20/29 chop off 4% and you get 19/28 the Saturn Aura gets 20/28, interesting isn't it? I can't wait to see the REAL ratings for the Japanese automakers when the new EPA MPG system comes out.

Dude, where are you getting your info? Whatever the EPA states, the automakers have to use. There's no fudging of the numbers involved.

The new EPA testing standards are going to drop the ratings for all vehicles, domestic and import.

And as far as the HP thing goes, some Asian makes didn't have their numbers drop by any significant amounts (if at all).

[regfootball]

MPG like HP is generally overstated by Japanese and Korean automakers, Europeans state them accurately, and typically Americans especially GM understate them.

because lying and cheating for business advantage is acceptable in their culture perhaps......? just asking

[Cory Wolfe]

While the EPA set guidelines for MPG ratings, automakers may choose to report them at or below the vehicle's actually EPA rating.

Since Asian automakers overstate HP is does not surprise me that MPG is also overstated. I hope that they realize they will get sued or worse if they continue this illegal practice. The 2007 Honda Accord V-6 gets 20/29 chop off 4% and you get 19/28 the Saturn Aura gets 20/28, interesting isn't it? I can't wait to see the REAL ratings for the Japanese automakers when the new EPA MPG system comes out.

That is... the most idiotic thing I've read on C&G in a long, long while. Thanks for the laugh.

[Northstar]

Dude, where are you getting your info? Whatever the EPA states, the automakers have to use. There's no fudging of the numbers involved.

The new EPA testing standards are going to drop the ratings for all vehicles, domestic and import.

And as far as the HP thing goes, some Asian makes didn't have their numbers drop by any significant amounts (if at all).

I think he's saying that if the Honda says it went 4% farther than it really did than it would get a better MPG figure.

[balthazar]

The question for me is: are honda & toyota off by 4% due to happenstance/innaccurate component design... or intent?

[big blue]

While the EPA set guidelines for MPG ratings, automakers may choose to report them at or below the vehicle's actually EPA rating.

Since Asian automakers overstate HP is does not surprise me that MPG is also overstated. I hope that they realize they will get sued or worse if they continue this illegal practice. The 2007 Honda Accord V-6 gets 20/29 chop off 4% and you get 19/28 the Saturn Aura gets 20/28, interesting isn't it? I can't wait to see the REAL ratings for the Japanese automakers when the new EPA MPG system comes out.

Well since you said it MUST be correct. Your statements are just teeming with bias and false pretenses. Check your bias at the door THEN post and maybe you'll be looked upon with a shred of credibility next time.

Edited January 18, 2007 by big blue

[CARBIZ]

Although Nissan and Mazda were generally faultless with respect to the overstated horsepower debacle last year, many of Toyota and Honda's products dropped SUBSTANTIALLY.

And Hyundai was already sued for doing just that thing a few years back.

Seems to be an epidemic in Asia. I wonder what gives.

As to gas mileage numbers, small engines that need to rev very high to get any actual power tend to do well with the way the EPA/Energuide (Canada) do their testing numbers. I mean, who actually can drive the way they test their vehicles? I am sure Toyota/Honda know this and have worked their engines to show up well in these tests.

I'd like to see a definitive study - by someone who doesn't have an axe to grinde, of real people driving real vehicles over a period of a year and see how significant the real world numbers drop is between domestic versus Asian name plates. I would bet the facts would be surprising, indeed.

[aaaantoine]

The 2007 Honda Accord V-6 gets 20/29 chop off 4% and you get 19/28 the Saturn Aura gets 20/28, interesting isn't it? I can't wait to see the REAL ratings for the Japanese automakers when the new EPA MPG system comes out.

Dude, where are you getting your info? Whatever the EPA states, the automakers have to use. There's no fudging of the numbers involved.

Assuming that there is a problem with Honda odometers especially, and assuming that the manufacturers use the car's odometer to get the MPG rating, I can see carman21's point.

An inaccurate odometer could make a significant difference in MPG rating. And if Honda's odometer records more miles than actual, then it's going to have a higher perceived MPG.

[Sixty8panther]

Yeah.... pretty easy to prove an odometer is registering incorrectly.

use mile markers or whatever, not that freekin' tough. :roleyes:

Did I ever mention how much I HATE Honda.... I do, they suck.

[GXT]

Dude, where are you getting your info? Whatever the EPA states, the automakers have to use. There's no fudging of the numbers involved.

Assuming that there is a problem with Honda odometers especially, and assuming that the manufacturers use the car's odometer to get the MPG rating, I can see carman21's point.

An inaccurate odometer could make a significant difference in MPG rating. And if Honda's odometer records more miles than actual, then it's going to have a higher perceived MPG.

The EPA doesn't use the car's odometer to calculate their ratings any more than they use the car's fuel meter.

[GXT]

Although Nissan and Mazda were generally faultless with respect to the overstated horsepower debacle last year, many of Toyota and Honda's products dropped SUBSTANTIALLY.

And Hyundai was already sued for doing just that thing a few years back.

Seems to be an epidemic in Asia. I wonder what gives.

Honda made the mistake of retesting and restating the HP of all their current vehicles. If they had just waited (like most manufacturers) for the next model year (and the whatever changes were made to the engine) then their HP numbers would have gone up as well. And then you would be writing how Honda was understating their HP just like the other manufacturers who didn't restate for existing cars.

[siegen]

MPG like HP is generally overstated by Japanese and Korean automakers, Europeans state them accurately, and typically Americans especially GM understate them.

Gotta love the generalizations.

hondas never break down, so why would they care about the warranty.

Exactly! :AH-HA_wink:

I'd like to see a definitive study - by someone who doesn't have an axe to grinde, of real people driving real vehicles over a period of a year and see how significant the real world numbers drop is between domestic versus Asian name plates. I would bet the facts would be surprising, indeed.

Check www.fueleconomy.gov. It's probably the closest you'll get to real world economy on an average in the U.S., even though it takes quite a number of reportings to get an accurate picture.

[enzl]

The question for me is: are honda & toyota off by 4% due to happenstance/innaccurate component design... or intent?

That's the real question here, isn't it? I could see variations in an odometer calibration, but 4% seems really high for an instrument that's fairly simple at its core.

Could it be an incorrect adjustment for wheel/tire combinations? Or a supplier issue? It would be interesting to see where these vehicles were made, or whether Toyota and Honda share a supplier.

IF true, it's another black eye for Toyota, who seem to be stepping into the barrel for their eventual turn. The sludging matter is just an embarassment, one which has haunted our T dealership for years. The settlement goes against everything Toyota's corporate has been saying for years.

[Sixty8panther]

because lying and cheating for business advantage is acceptable in their culture perhaps......? just asking

The fact that you would say that the Japanese consider cheating, lying,

backstabbing & outright manipulation to be acceptable, almost as if it

was something inherant in their culture, just shows how biased you are!

What an a$$hole!!! Get your facts straight dude!

The Japanese have NEVER fought unfair. Their code of ethics in the

business world is almost as good as thier ethics when it comes to war!

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Oh, wait on second thought, nevermind.

YES, I'm exagerating for effect, don't have a cow Japanese car fans.

[Drew Dowdell]

The question for me is: are honda & toyota off by 4% due to happenstance/innaccurate component design... or intent?

Mark Twain once said "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained with stupidity".

Trouble is, neither Honda nor Toyota are stupid.

[pow]

The case for unethical American businesses are just as strong... so these nation generalizations are all pointless.

[balthazar]

In my lifetime, I have not seen the scandal, the lies nor the deception from domestic auto manufacturers that I have seen from the -generally speaking- asian brands. So, IMO, the generalization confined to auto manufacturers, holds water.

[GXT]

Could it be an incorrect adjustment for wheel/tire combinations? Or a supplier issue? It would be interesting to see where these vehicles were made, or whether Toyota and Honda share a supplier.

IF true, it's another black eye for Toyota, who seem to be stepping into the barrel for their eventual turn. The sludging matter is just an embarassment, one which has haunted our T dealership for years. The settlement goes against everything Toyota's corporate has been saying for years.

Why are you bringing up Toyota? Were the mentioned in the lawsuit? I thought it was just Honda/Acura.

[siegen]

Why are you bringing up Toyota? Were the mentioned in the lawsuit? I thought it was just Honda/Acura.

I'm sure a lot of the people on this board don't think of any of the Japanese automakers as individual makes, but rather Japan Inc as a whole. If Toyota does something wrong, then both Honda and Nissan are fair game in the bash-fest. It's pretty common and the same can be said on the flip side. I've seen a lot of people on import forums bash domestic makes as a whole (even when we all know Chrysler is the worst :AH-HA_wink: )

[Sixty8panther]

Ford is the lowest common denominator amongst the Domestics.

Always has been, always will be. (independants aside)

[GXT]

Ford is the lowest common denominator amongst the Domestics.

Always has been, always will be. (independants aside)

Perhaps if they didn't have that tendency to catch on fire...

[GXT]

I'm sure a lot of the people on this board don't think of any of the Japanese automakers as individual makes, but rather Japan Inc as a whole. If Toyota does something wrong, then both Honda and Nissan are fair game in the bash-fest. It's pretty common and the same can be said on the flip side. I've seen a lot of people on import forums bash domestic makes as a whole (even when we all know Chrysler is the worst :AH-HA_wink: )

Gotcha. That doesn't seem fair... all the manufacturers screw up enough on their own :AH-HA_wink:

[GXT]

Well I guess it is time for some group to start testing a number of different cars from each make to see how bad the situation is accross the board.

Perhaps C&D could add a "% Odometer Deviation" metric right under the 0-60 time.

[sciguy_0504]

Why are you bringing up Toyota? Were the mentioned in the lawsuit? I thought it was just Honda/Acura.

Thank you for trying to get that point across. It seems as if people cannot read.

[enzl]

In my lifetime, I have not seen the scandal, the lies nor the deception from domestic auto manufacturers that I have seen from the -generally speaking- asian brands. So, IMO, the generalization confined to auto manufacturers, holds water.

I'm not sure how old you are, but I'll assume you're not old enough to recall the Domestic Auto industry and their indefensible stand on the following:

-Lead (in gasoline) is a not a highly toxic poison (they fought for years against Unleaded Gasoline)

-Seatbelts won't save lives (they were concerned about the appearance of a safety device)

-Airbags (ditto)

-Catalytic Converters-Been to LA lately? Imagine the LA Basin w/o emission controls

-Repeated issues with design flaws (i.e. Pinto, Sidesaddle gas tanks in Pick-ups, Corvair handling)

That's off the top of my head....the cold, hard truth is that when it comes to preserving profit margins, many business leaders WORLDWIDE have done awful things (and still are!)

US co.'s are equally likely. Here's some examples:

Enron

Every US based Oil Company does business with dictatorsand/or oppressive regimes

WorldCom (ask any of their former 30,000 employees)

Haliburton (No bid contracts stealing taxpayer $)

Gun Makers (Sure, the 2nd Amendment includes the right to buy automatic weapons that can use armor piercing bullets)

Wal-Mart (j'ever see the inside of the Chinese factories that supply 'Everyday low prices'?)

Don't defend others right to be racists. The Japanese might be as bad, but certainly no worse than the above examples.

[evok]

In my lifetime, I have not seen the scandal, the lies nor the deception from domestic auto manufacturers that I have seen from the -generally speaking- asian brands. So, IMO, the generalization confined to auto manufacturers, holds water.

Ford - Firestone was the first thing that popped in my head. Does anyone remember the congressional hearings on the that not so minor scandal? Or Ford overrating HP figures on the Cobra, GM accounting irregularities (SEC investigations), DPH management in court, etc. Dare I touch Chrysler and their first generation airbag killing kids, lift gate latches popping open on the vans ejecting occupants, Generation III/IV seatbelts unlatching and I will not even touch their general quality in the 1990s. Therefore I may conclude that the relatively recent headlines I mentions are a tad more serious than the allegations against HMC for a 4% overstatement on MPG.

Give me another 5 minutes and I am sure I can think of some more that are not on the tip of my brain at the moment.

Edited January 19, 2007 by evok

[CARBIZ]

I can't defend Ford over the tire debacle, but was it ever established whose fault it really was? After all, Ford did not build the tires! The Chrysler thing was total BS and YOU know it. They had, like 9 incidents out of 2 million vehicles? It was quite the stretch, statistically. Accounting irregularities do not hurt the customer; just a bunch of fat cats in Wall Street, even though the practice should not be condoned.

Honda and Toyota seem to come up on a regular basis as to "irregular" numbers. Toyota adding Scion sales to their own? NO problem. The '06 Camry dropped 20 hp, Sienna by 15, the Acura TL by 12: many, many of their models dropped by more than 10 hp. We are not talking the piddly numbers that Hyundai got SUED for. Toyota and Honda got away with it, plain and simple.

The hag, Ellen Roseman, who writes for the Toronto Star, went crazy when Hyundai got caught - she demanded customers be rebating $1,000 or more for the "fib." Where was she and others when the $70k SC430 dropped 12 horsepower??????

[enzl]

I can't defend Ford over the tire debacle, but was it ever established whose fault it really was? After all, Ford did not build the tires! The Chrysler thing was total BS and YOU know it. They had, like 9 incidents out of 2 million vehicles? It was quite the stretch, statistically. Accounting irregularities do not hurt the customer; just a bunch of fat cats in Wall Street, even though the practice should not be condoned.

Honda and Toyota seem to come up on a regular basis as to "irregular" numbers. Toyota adding Scion sales to their own? NO problem. The '06 Camry dropped 20 hp, Sienna by 15, the Acura TL by 12: many, many of their models dropped by more than 10 hp. We are not talking the piddly numbers that Hyundai got SUED for. Toyota and Honda got away with it, plain and simple.

The hag, Ellen Roseman, who writes for the Toronto Star, went crazy when Hyundai got caught - she demanded customers be rebating $1,000 or more for the "fib." Where was she and others when the $70k SC430 dropped 12 horsepower??????

The point was that most, if not all co.'s have their issues, foreign & domestic alike...how does a drop in HP equate with rollovers?

Read up on the history of Detroit....you'll see exactly who's been 'hurt'....Is children's lead poisoning a good thing? How about Henry Ford's publication of hate-rags or the thugs that nearly extingusihed the modern labor movement (& the source of ALL U.S. labor law that protects you & I on the job.)?

Oooo...my Hyundai's down on HP...Guess the Indy 500 is out this year. C'mon, man.

You cannot compare fudging a couple of HP with clear safety issues, regardless of how infrequent. I'm not defending the foreign makes as angels, just pointing out the logical inconsistency in your examples.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Ford - Firestone was the first thing that popped in my head. Does anyone remember the congressional hearings on the that not so minor scandal? Or Ford overrating HP figures on the Cobra, GM accounting irregularities (SEC investigations), DPH management in court, etc. Dare I touch Chrysler and their first generation airbag killing kids, lift gate latches popping open on the vans ejecting occupants, Generation III/IV seatbelts unlatching and I will not even touch their general quality in the 1990s. Therefore I may conclude that the relatively recent headlines I mentions are a tad more serious than the allegations against HMC for a 4% overstatement on MPG.

Give me another 5 minutes and I am sure I can think of some more that are not on the tip of my brain at the moment.

yeah, but bill fords two great-grandfathers, Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone used to take camping trips every year with Thomas Edison and whoever the president at the time was. They called themselves 'the Vagabonds.' They sort of invented SUVs.

I agree with the last part of the statement, the generalization confined to auto manufacturers, holds water.

How historically accurate is Tucker?

Its kind of funny to me because ive joked for years about Asian cars odometers spinning a wee bit faster. Im guessing someone is exploiting a soft spot in the "rules".

Edited January 20, 2007 by Mr.Krinkle