Has the phase out of Oldsmobile changed your views of GM

[Brougham-Holiday]

Now that the dust has settled, whats everyones view on GM after the end of Oldsmobile?

Im still angry myself, and think Olds could have been a great product with more distinctive designs, maybe do what Saturn is doing now yet keep the full size cars too, not just midsize and small cars.

[balthazar]

Personally, I never much cared for Olds' cars. I've never owned one (tho they've been in my family here & there & I've driven Olds's tens of thousands of miles), and I really have no desire to own one.

That said, I want to address a passing comment you made in another post ("last vestige of Olds comes down'??)- IMO General Motors has no intentions whatsoever of trying to make anyone "forget" Olds or pretend Olds never existed.

To answer the above: it primarily saddens me that Olds is gone, from a historical appreciation standpoint.

Any anger over the situation comes from the fact that so much money has been wasted with subaru, fiat, suzuki, saab & izusu... money that could've built brand new leading-edge Olds's instead. But at this point I have accepted it fully (what other course of action is there?) and I watch eagerly to see the -hopefully- resultant rejuvination of Pontiac & Buick- two divisions that mean a lot more to me.

[Flybrian]

One step closer to me simply buying used.

[REDO1GPGT]

I am still as disappointed now as I was back in 2000. At the time Olds was my favorite of the GM brands and I hoped to own one down the road. To me olds was the only GM brand that offered cars that were my style, the cars were sleek and attractive. I have always had a thing for the first gen Aurora and would have really liked to see what it and the Oldsmobile brand would become. Even though I like the first gen Aurora much more than the second, to me it stood out in the GM lineup and is probably one of the cars I miss most now that olds is gone. At the time of the announcement of the phase out, in my opinion, Olds had some of the better cars GM was making and it was a shame it had to end. I understand why GM chose to eliminate a division, they just had too many, but I personally would not have chosen olds. I am curious as to what cars people chose to purchase when trading in their olds, do they go to Saturn or just end up with some import? Now that Saturn finally has some competitive, attractive vehicles, I think they will be able to better fill olds spot in the GM lineup and they don't have the image problem olds suffered from. Hopefully some day I will find myself that perfect black on black first gen Aurora that I have always wanted.

Edited January 6, 2007 by REDO1GPGT

[AxelTheRed]

Killing off Oldsmobile kind of thew GM's product core out of whack. Having to plug the hole with Saturn still feels awkward, regardless of how great the cars are, and it will be a long time before Saturn achieves the kind of entry-level luxury image that Oldsmobile had (although, let's hope Saturn doesn't suffer from the "old person's car" perception like Olds did).

[ehaase]

It was the right decision to make. The market for medium priced brands has contracted over the last 20 years. Better to invest the funds in Chevrolet, Cadillac, and Saturn.

[CARBIZ]

It would have been interesting to have been a fly on the wall during the executive meetings that spoke about dumping Olds and propping up Saturn. In the great scheme of things, I am not sure dropping Olds made a big difference. Speaking from personal experience at a former Chevrolet-Oldsmobile store (as were all GM stores in Canada), I have lots quite a few customers who have defected to the imports because their Alero/Aurora/Intrigue lease came up and we have nothing to sell them. Some may have considered Buick, but most went to BMW, Toyota. I don't see Saturn ever having a respectable name, but that is my opinion.

If GM had gotten religion with respect to interior materials and fit/finish with the Intrigue in '97 that car could have saved Oldsmobile; however, as was normal at the time, the bean counters saddled the car with crappy fit and finish and only managed to capture die hard GM types, not be the import magnet that it needed to be.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm still disappointed by it. To me it's proof that nice interiors and DOHC engines don't really matter. It's the Kool-Aid that matters. The Intrigue with the 3.5 is still superior to the Lacrosse in my mind. The Aurora v2.0 is a little ahead of the Lucerne. If both of those Olds were still being produced today, I would *still* buy them over their Buick counterparts even if they hadn't really been updated. There are at least 3 gay guys I know all under 30, who are babying their Aleros as long as they can. One has even taken to looking for a low mileage used one for cheap to keep as a spare. Two Aurora owners under 30.... same thing. None of them have any idea what they'll buy next if they can't find a decent used Olds. GM pulled out a bit too early.

The death of olds made me switch to Cadillac. I like Cadillac and I'm sure GM likes the switch.

Cadillac doesn't hold my attention like olds did. I haven't even seen the NG CTS yet, but I'm already second guessing my decision to buy one. Prior to the Olds death, there was no doubt in my mind where I'd be shopping for a car.

Now, I've seriously considered the NG Malibu, G6 Convertible, Aura, 9-3 Sport Combi, and NG CTS as serious contenders to replace my current CTS in a year. While it's great for GM that I'm willing to stick with GM.... isn't it sad that I can't get what I really want?! <2008 Cutlass Convertible FWIW>

[ocnblu]

That last lineup was Olds' best in quite some time. They went out on a high product note, imo. Interesting that Saturn started out with Olds styling cues, and now Saturn is fast filling Oldsmobile's niche within the corporation, with the exception of a fullsize stunner like the Aurora. It seemed to me that the wholesale revamping, repositioning and renaming of the Olds lineup, (even though they were fine cars) put off too many traditional Olds buyers and didn't capture the new owners they needed to survive. I also think there is something to be said about the (proud, historic) very name "Oldsmobile" that the public at large just couldn't seem to attach to a desirable car in their modern mind's eye. Heck, Oldsmobile even seemed embarrassed by themselves, with the lack of any mention of the name on their cars for a couple of model years.

[z28luvr01]

I do have some emotional attachment to Olds, with my father (himself an Olds mechanic for a few years) owning a '00 Intrigue, having two G-body Cutlasses spend time in our driveway (and my continued lust for a 87-88 Cutlass Supreme Classic), and almost sealing the deal on a new '01 Alero for myself a few years back. I was sad as anything to hear they were going away, especially given that 1) The Oldsmobiles of the time were some of the greatest cars in the brand's history, and definitely the best, most sophsticated, nicest looking cars in all of GM at the time and 2) Saturn seemed like such an easy target for the axe, with an aging S-series and an L series that sucked. Perhaps it was the right decision for the GM management at the time, but had GM's current management structure been in place during that time period, Olds would still be here. The bright spot for Olds is: it went down fighting. Compare Olds' death to Plymouth's or Eagle's, and you'll understand what I mean.

[Brougham-Holiday]

Personally, I never much cared for Olds' cars. I've never owned one (tho they've been in my family here & there & I've driven Olds's tens of thousands of miles), and I really have no desire to own one.

That said, I want to address a passing comment you made in another post ("last vestige of Olds comes down'??)- IMO General Motors has no intentions whatsoever of trying to make anyone "forget" Olds or pretend Olds never existed.

To answer the above: it primarily saddens me that Olds is gone, from a historical appreciation standpoint.

Any anger over the situation comes from the fact that so much money has been wasted with subaru, fiat, suzuki, saab & izusu... money that could've built brand new leading-edge Olds's instead. But at this point I have accepted it fully (what other course of action is there?) and I watch eagerly to see the -hopefully- resultant rejuvination of Pontiac & Buick- two divisions that mean a lot more to me.

"Very sad to see the Oldsmobile building loose its signage. I always thought it was a cool building. "

Where does this say anything about GM trying to forget Olds?

[texasred]

I will not buy a GM car in the forseeable future because:

1. They killed Oldsmobile to dump more money into...SATURN???

2. They just don't get it. Get what? Name it: SUVs, electric cars, nostalgia cars (that Camaro is just sad), blaming the unions because they build cars nobody wants...

C.J.

[bobo]

Olds was my favorite GM division. There's no denying that GM had too many models, but I don't think that they had to do away with Oldsmobile altogether. They just needed four world-class vehicles (compact, mid-size, full-size, and crossover), and the lineup was just one generation away from it. Of course, Saturn and Buick are the beneficiaries of Olds' demise. with resources now given to them to help plug the hole left by Olds.

Olds stood for cutting edge technology. That's been handed off to Saturn. Olds stood for clean, international styling. Saturn's picked up on that. Olds stood for upscale refinement. Again, that's now Saturn. In a way, the real Oldsmobile went away a couple of reorganizations ago back in the '80's, but the division still managed to create some of the most desirable vehicles of the company. If only the quality and perceived quality could match the industry's best, and if only GM didn't let the division wither before the big last gasp push, Olds could have survived. It was a valiant effort, and I still think given a little more time it could have worked.

When I got that Gen2 Aurora a couple of years ago, that pretty much fulfilled my lifelong desire to own an Olds. But I don't intend to buy a used car ever again, and therefore I will not get another Olds (though I seriously considered purchasing my now retired Quad 4-equipped work Achieva, however mediocre that car was). The only things that excite me now are hybrids, electric cars, and things of that sort, and when GM's plug-in hybrid gets to market, that's what I'll probably buy, and I figure more than likely Saturn will be the division that will be the purveyor of that technology (though I prefer not to get the piggish new Vue).

[texasred]

Olds stood for cutting edge technology. That's been handed off to Saturn. Olds stood for clean, international styling. Saturn's picked up on that. Olds stood for upscale refinement. Again, that's now Saturn.

...I figure more than likely Saturn will be the division that will be the purveyor of that technology (though I prefer not to get the piggish new Vue).

Have you seen/driven any Saturns? Cut-rate, shoddily made 1990s Toyotas. And have you taken a good look at the new Saturn Sky? Even on the showrooom floor, 3 out of 4 have wrinkles in the convertible top.

I'll agree that GM put the Olds division and Olds dealers against the wall in the 80s in preparation for their eventual demise. It was a very deliberate path. Read "Racing to the Past" and "Project 2000" for the real back story. You can even see the handwriting on the wall in the deliberately non-controversial "Setting the Pace".

I haven't seen anything in GM that actually means upscale styling, innovation or refinement in a long time. We waited on a new car for months to drive the Buick Lucerne. Just another rental car. That's why we bought a Dodge Charger. And I'll keep my 71 Cutlass Convertible until they pry the drivers seat from my cold, dead ass.

C.J.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

'll agree that GM put the Olds division and Olds dealers against the wall in the 80s in preparation for their eventual demise. It was a very deliberate path. Read "Racing to the Past" and "Project 2000" for the real back story. You can even see the handwriting on the wall in the deliberately non-controversial "Setting the Pace".

Where can I find these items? I have the book "Setting The Pace".

I have many opinions on this subject.. I am not going there today..

[DetroitNut90]

I miss Olds. They were my favorite GM brand for a long time. I was very sad to see GM's innovator sent to the guillotine, and I still am. I told myself back in 1999 that a metallic red/green 2-door V6 Alero would be my first new car. Well...needless to say, that won't ever happen. And what hurt me a lot was seeing how GM put ads up on the Olds site that pushed the (then, 2004) new Malibu on me instead of my Alero coupe. To this day, I wonder how quickly the decision to axe the brand was made by management, and how easy it was for them to do.

But, it makes no sense to dwell on the past. Like Z said, it made me feel better knowing that Olds went down fighting with what was arguably its best line-up to-date. Plymouth died with a rebadged Neon, Caravan, and Stratus.

[gm4life]

I owned an Olds and side it was easy for me to say goodbye to a maroon on red velvet Delta 88 with 14inch wire wheel locking discs. (Even tho that Series I 3800 was a sweetheart in the tq. department.) I miss the good Olds like the Aurora and twin cam 3.5L and 4.0L motors and the up to snuff 2nd generation Aurora interior. Olds was always the test dumby first production navigation system? Olds guidestar system in the LSS (always like those newer design tho) and Aurora.) Given the current line-up I would have killed Buick and kept Olds. Look at what Buick had... Centry (ugly & underpowered) Regal (decent car much better looking than the Centry *at least you could get a GS supercharged*) Park Avenue even then it was getting outdated, LeSabre (good car even considering the time) and Rendvous (ugly and was on its way...). Olds had the Aurora (great car and two sweet motors) Intirgue (great motor *okay styling on outside pretty good on inside*) Alero (wonderful midsize car) Barvada (nice SUV for the time) and the minivan (who cares?) I guess it was sharp... They should have killed Buick... Then when I saw the LaCrosse I knew they should have killed Buick! Along came the Lucerne and I was glad Buick stayed alive, and the Enclave enforced that decesion! (The Velite or whatever also was helpful...) Olds will be missed... Vista Cruiser to Hoilday 88's it has been sad to see an excellent name die! GM has taken their website and designed it as a tribute to Olds and there inovations clearly they do not want Olds to be forgotten. Thank God for that. :AH-HA_wink:

[FAPTurbo]

What's an Oldsmobile?...

[AM6_Cutlass]

I was very upset when I heard the first heard the news. I think that it changed my outlook of GM and the auto industry in general. as my optimism turned to pessimism. I still don't think I'd ever buy a non-GM car, as my grandfather is a retired GM employee and I grew up almost exclusivly around GM cars. It will, however, change my willingness to buy new, and make me keep my used cars longer. My grandfather was always a Pontiac man (though he currently has a Buick Century), and Pontiacs never did much for me with the rare exception of a few years of Grand Prixs COUPES and Bonneville. My other grandfather primarily drove Chevys (though he did have a 77 Cutlass when I was little). My parents owned whatever they got a good deal on (three Chevys, three Pontiacs, two Oldsmobiles, a Buick and a GMC). I always considered my dad a Chevy guy as that's what he seemed to default to on his own, and he was a big fan of the Chevelle (owning one in the early 70s before I was born) and Corvettes (though he never owned one). My mom bought a Buick on her own, and is most interested in replacing it with another. Oldsmobile was my thing, more distinctive than any Chevy could ever be, lacking the overly firm suspension, seats and red guages of Pontiac, and not as stodgy as Buick. I have always been a Cadillac guy to a lesser extent, but there is too much status associated with owning one. I could go out and buy a brand new Impala for $25,000 and nobody would blink, but spend the same amount on a used Caddy and even though it's used and didn't cost me any more, it will change the way people view me and my money situation. People would be asking themselves "where did he get that kind of money?". I think it would make it harder to convince my boss that I need a raise, or to get people to extend themselves with free or reduced offers because I'm young and "just starting out". I pretend to be way too poor for that.

Anyway, back on subject... I lost interest in the auto industry in general for a few years after the announcement. I turned my interests more to classic cars instead of future cars, and began collecting die-cast cars and license plates. I now know more about why GM did what they did... they were in worse financial trouble than I could have imagined at the time. I still feel like a homeless consumer though. The funny thing is that I'm such a bench seat guy, and Olds wasn't even building any cars I would buy when they were shuttered. I had hope that GM had realized they had made an error changing so quickly, and the next gen Intrigue would remedy that if only temporary. The Alero was certianally on the right track for the future, attracting lots of younger, more educated and upscale buyers than the Achieva or Calais could ever dream of(plus it was beginning to gain a decent aftermarket following). Oldsmobile needed more time for those Alero owners to mature into owning Intrigues or Auroras. Olds would have been wiser spending the money they wasted on the Malibu-Cutlass on an Intrigue based Cutlass that would have had different front and rear fascias, standard 3100 V6, bench seats and 15" hubcaps with aluminum wheels optional. Even if they pushed the Intrigue, the Cutlass would have sold well to just the Olds loyalists looking to trade thier Supremes or Cieras and even some Eighty-Eights, and without advertising. I remember asking an Olds dealer if the Intrigue came with bench seats yet (knowing the answer, but curious to what he'd say). He responded with a no, but said he wished it did and that he could sell alot more of them that way.

When I bought my Impala, I had the money to buy a new car that I didn't when I bought my Cutlass. I defaulted to used, because there was no new cars I felt were worthy of spending double on. After just over a year, I am BORED stiff with my Impala. Even after seven years, I still thought my Cutlass was beautiful (especially after washing), and still looked back on it in a parking lot just to see it. I am thinking about buying a new Impala, this time higher optioned, but even at that I'm afraid I will grow bored with it quickly. The Lacrosse and Lucerne are decent cars on paper, but I also fear I will grow bored with them quickly (My Impala seemed perfect on paper too). My dream would be a new DTS, but see above as to why that won't happen anytime soon.

If Saturn would build an appropriate car, Saturn would probably become my brand of choice, but time will tell. I'm willing to forgive the fact that Saturn got alot of the money that would have sustained Olds to get a car that matched my personality. They just haven't created one yet. Olds will always hold a special place in my heart, and as soon as I get things in order around the house, and the garage cleaned out (my dumping place during remodel), I will be looking for a Toronado or older Cutlass to add to my stable.

[gm4life]

I have always been a Cadillac guy to a lesser extent, but there is too much status associated with owning one. I could go out and buy a brand new Impala for $25,000 and nobody would blink, but spend the same amount on a used Caddy and even though it's used and didn't cost me any more, it will change the way people view me and my money situation. People would be asking themselves "where did he get that kind of money?". I think it would make it harder to convince my boss that I need a raise, or to get people to extend themselves with free or reduced offers because I'm young and "just starting out". I pretend to be way too poor for that.

^I totally agree and you wonder my why wonderful Cadillac SDV is gone? I would love a used DTS but won't get one as I am a teacher and they would wonder where they got that kind of money!.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

You guys (AM6 Cutlass and GM4 Life) hit it right on the head!

Getting rid of Oldsmobile was not smart. They are still paying for it. I was hurt and it still hurts. I have accepted it eventhough I do not like it. Oldsmobile gave you the best of both sides of GM:

Chevy/Pontiac= price and sport

Buick/Cadillac= luxury,sophistication and distinction.

Let me be honest here.. When I was a child I liked all the GM divisions. I still do. When I was younger I wanted a Pontiac Bonneville or Parsisienne or Grand Prix. I always liked all those luxury features on Cadillacs. I also liked the Oldsmobiles because they were the best compromise. I liked Buick, but they just never sat well with me and rubbed me the wrong way(especially in the 1970's). I liked Chevrolet Caprice, but it lacked that something. Again.. Oldsmobile had that something... I learned the GM history, the cars and divisions. I learned about Holden years ago before everyone knew Holden here. I liked them because they looked like Oldsmobiles.

Fast forward...

When I bought my first car, I was looking at a 1993-1996 Cadillac Fleetwood or the 1989-1992 Fleeetwood and Deville. I could not do it because of where I work, I knew they would think they were paying me too much or that where was I getting that kind of money. I also knew the faculty(professors) who make more than me would feel threatened by me driving a Cadillac. I wanted to be a good steward with my money. The Oldsmobile Ninety Eight allows me to have Cadillac features and luxury at a comfortable price. It allows me drive a luxury car that is distinctive, but not in your face. It is not pretentious or flashy.

I laugh when I think how close my car is to a Deville/DTS or Fleetwood. I just do not have the V8.

On the Oldsmobile Ninety Eight video I have here in the house, they say the Ninety Eight is for the successful person who has arrived, but chooses to not display their wealth.

I did not want Buicks because there is something still to this day that does not sit right with me about owning one. It is not flashy like Cadillac, but Buicks are missing something I cannot put my finger on. I wonder too what the Ninety Eight would have looked like with a redesign in 1997 when Park Avenue got one.

GM messed up with the new Oldsmobile. It failed because of execution, marketing, wiping out the old Oldsmobile and that whole name changing business and trying to "woo" import owners who they knew did not want their cars.

My issue was never with the looks of the new Oldsmobile. It was the naming scheme(They are still screwing that up on other divisions now), the lack of a clear mission, and lack of a fullsized car.

When I went to buy a second car to have with my Ninety Eight, I looked at:

Lincoln Mark VIII, Buick Riviera, Cadillac SLS, Lincoln Town Car and 1997-1999 Deville and a host of Oldsmobiles..

I went with Oldsmobile Toronado. It like the Ninety Eight gave me what I needed and how I needed it. Riviera fell short and I was not driving an Eldorado because of the status of the vehicle. Yes, I almost bought a Lincoln because it was close to what I wanted and what I have with Oldsmobile and it does not carry the flash and status Cadillac has. That is how GM lost those buyers and they have not recovered them.

I have owned two Ninety Eight's :

1994 was totaled in August 2003. I have the 1995.

I have owned two Toronados.

1991 was totaled August 2006. I have the 1992 now.

The reason why I bought the same cars twice is because when I was in an accident, those cars were very crash worthy.

I still support GM, and like them but I am orphaned and they do not have anything for me either.

Here is a video:

End Of Oldsmobile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFlBqRYpbZc

Edited January 20, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Satty]

It showed me that GM is getting smart. They were stretched thin, too many brands. So you take the necessary brands out(Chevy and Cadillac) of the equation and put the rest (Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Oldsmobile, Saturn) on the table. B-P-G were going to be consolidated, to basically make a three-headed monster leaving Olds and Saturn. Most Saturn dealerships were stand alone, which would have made closing them a bit more difficult than closing Olds dealerships which were often shared with other brands, and Saturn didn't register negatively in the minds of most people, for most people it didn't register at all, so the brand could still be molded into whatever GM wanted, were seeing the fruits of that now. There you have it, Olds go squeezed out by GM having too many brands. Before you use the Saturn argument, its likely that Olds would have been in a similar situation if Saturn had never existed anyways.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Ninety Eight - it's greta having you posting again. I remember the accident claiming the '94 and your search that led you to the '95, but when did you get the '92 Toronado? Two Oldsmobiles now, huh! Lucky you. Is the '92 a Trofeo? A friend of mine neighbor had a dark blue '92 Toronado Trofeo and I lusted after that car. He got into a car accident in '94 and drove it a little while longer, than replaced it with something else. Later on he said he regretted getting rid of it - no other car was like his Trofeo.

My only link to Oldsmobile was with my aunt, who purcahsed in early 1990 a leftover "dealer demo" 1989 98 Regency. This was special ordered for the G.M. at the dealership, and he didn't put a whole lot of miles on it (4 or 5 K). It had many more options than most Regency's of the time, and was similarly equipped to the Touring edition. She babied that car, only putting 27,000 miles on it at the time of her death in 2004. She always said that she'd give me the car in her will; unfortunately, she died of cancer and never made a will in time. Apparently though she wrote out her wishes and gave it to my cousin to follow through with; my cousin - to whom I got along with all my life - turned against the rest of the family and claimed all my aunt's stuff as hers, including the Oldsmobile. God only knows what my wacky cousin has done to that wonderful '89 98 Regency

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

GMC Truck Guy:

Nice talking to you. I have been back for a little bit. So far good. I hope it stays that way.

I got the Toronado in December 2006. It is not a Trofeo. I did not want the Trofeo. The Trofeo had too many mechanical/electrical issues. The analog gauges on them go out a lot. You see alot of the gauges on Ebay for sale. The analog gauges were standard in 1990-1992. Plus, I did not want analog gauges either. I cannot stand them. The Toronados are well built. You have Cadilac Eldorado like touches on the inside.

It is equipped like a 1985 Toronado Brougham. It has everything.

The gauges look like this on the inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07KF6W9AmU

There are certain options you had to get in order to get those.

It is a color you rarely saw. The last few years of Toronado were rare.

[Imaj]

Phasing Oldsmobile makes me fear that another brand might be phased as well! GM should of never phased Oldsmobile! They've lost a lot of sales because of it, and we lost a great american company!

I'm still disapointed and wish if it never happened..

[chevelle454]

It was big mistake to get rid of Olds. I know many people that always bought Oldsmobiles and nothing else. The few hundred thousand they sold per year in their last few years will nevery be recovered, by another division.

[Ravenfreak13]

Saturn stayed because it was neutral and could be more modernized compared to olds....

[ponchoman49]

What's an Oldsmobile?...

Time for bed junior!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Saturn should have been killed not Olds. Saturn has less dealers (oops I mean retailers ) in their network and will never sell more cars than olds did on their worst day just because of their low dealer numbers.

Saturn start up money, that by the way Saturn never repaid GM for yet, should have been used by Olds and Pontiac to revamp those divisions in the 90s and not create a new division called Saturn.

GM thought those customers would move to Buick, that never happened for the most part and GM threw away a large customer base for Saturn's tiny customer base, how foolish!!!!

Saturn should have been the one to die not Olds, think of where Olds would be today had GM taken care of it, like they do Saturn now.

All I know is if I had a choice between a Saturn Outlook and and a GMC Acadia, I'd pick the GMC, for the plain simple facts that there are more GMC dealers, I can also wheel and deal at a GMC dealer and GMC has rebates for what is for all intents and purposes the same vehicle. Why would anyone pay sticker for a Saturn when you can go to GMC and get a way better deal, is beyond me?????

Edited March 8, 2007 by Pontiac-Custom-S

[Duncan]

All I know is if I had a choice between a Saturn Outlook and and a GMC Acadia...

...I'd look for a used Envoy. Or, failing that, a Grand Cherokee with a Hemi.

Then again, I'm not really an SUV/CUV/whatever fan...I like my trucks a bit huskier, even if they don't handle as well.

I too still mourn Oldsmobile (mainly for the loss of such a historic and long-lived nameplate), though Satty's point is probably correct - one of those three divisions was going to be removed, and if I had to choose it would have been Buick - Olds was better-positioned (even in a weakened state) to take on the Acuras and Infinitis of the world. (Cadillac is pitched a bit higher in the world, and deservedly so.)

Imagine what we'd be looking at now if Buick had been excised instead - a third-gen Intrigue or Aurora on the new Commodore architecture, probably carrying a small Northstar in top spec. An Epsilon-based Alero (or Cutlass!) with the 3.6 DOHC. And probably a fourth-gen Bravada instead of the Outlook, which seems overpriced and outsized to me as a Saturn.

Though many of you praise what Saturn is becoming, I can't say I agree. They started out with a much more focused goal (beating back the imports by doing it their way) and have ended up as just another cookie-cutter under the GM umbrella - a Chevy with more flash, or a Pontiac for less cash. The only distinctive thing about them is that they're the closest we'll ever get to driving an Opel or Vauxhall, and even that's not close enough for me.

Oldsmobile, we knew ye well. Maybe someday, when GM finally gets their testicles out of Honda's firm grasp, we'll see you again.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Though many of you praise what Saturn is becoming, I can't say I agree. They started out with a much more focused goal (beating back the imports by doing it their way) and have ended up as just another cookie-cutter under the GM umbrella - a Chevy with more flash, or a Pontiac for less cash. The only distinctive thing about them is that they're the closest we'll ever get to driving an Opel or Vauxhall, and even that's not close enough for me.

Oldsmobile, we knew ye well. Maybe someday, when GM finally gets their testicles out of Honda's firm grasp, we'll see you again.

I hate to tell you, but basically Saturn has taken Oldsmobile's place in the GM hierachy. And you could say the same about Oldsmobiles - a classier Chevy but priced higher than a Pontiac. I too wish GM would have kept Olds and axed Buick. Olds had more impressive cars and sold to many people UNDER 50. You can't say that about Buick at the time. Just as GM combined Buick-Pontiac-GMC, I think Olds and Saturn should have been combined. This way the Aurora could have lived on, the Bravada could have been the precursor to the OUTLOOK (instead of the non-selling Rainier), the Alero or Intrigue would have become the AURA, and the Silhouette was already basically the RELAY anyway. But alas, Olds is gone and I'm sure it won't come back (unfortunately).

[Casket Demon]

Oldsmo-who?

[CARBIZ]

....so what you're saying is that an Acadia with a base price of $39,945 (Can.) is a better deal than an Outlook with a base price of $34,449? Is that how it works, Pontiac Custom S? You don't think the Saturn retailers don't deal? You don't think GM corporate isn't aware of allocations and market share? (Shuffle a $2k rebate to this side and watch the sales rise; take it away there and watch them drop.)

Personally, as a salesperson at a former Chevrolet-Oldsmobile retailer (now Chevrolet only), I am getting sick of fielding directions to Pontiac-Buick-GMC stores (as they have always been in Canada) for people looking for the Acadia, Grand Prix, etc. With the loss of Oldsmobile in Canada, I think some retailers are really hurting. I know I have lost a big chunk of my portfolio as customers with Aleros and Intrigues defect to Buick (doubtfully) or Acura/Nissan/Mazda.

I think the mandarins in Oshawa/Detroit are all on quaaludes, or something. Chevrolet is the golden goose in the U.S., but up here (at least in the Toronto area) we are getting ravaged. Saturn has always been the ugly step-sister, but with the rumours of the Opel product washing up on these shores in the next couple years; well, at least in Canada I suspect it will be a blood letting of Chevrolet dealers. The Opel product for Saturn makes good sense - 10 years late!

The HHR doesn't sell here. We never had anything to match the Vibe. The Pontiac dealers whined until they got the Pursuit/G5 (and we make fun of Ford's name changes!), then the Wave. Chevrolet has never had a cross-over, and we are told it will be a couple more years until one arrives. How many does Ford have now?

[Oracle of Delphi]

....so what you're saying is that an Acadia with a base price of $39,945 (Can.) is a better deal than an Outlook with a base price of $34,449? Is that how it works, Pontiac Custom S? You don't think the Saturn retailers don't deal? You don't think GM corporate isn't aware of allocations and market share? (Shuffle a $2k rebate to this side and watch the sales rise; take it away there and watch them drop.)

Personally, as a salesperson at a former Chevrolet-Oldsmobile retailer (now Chevrolet only), I am getting sick of fielding directions to Pontiac-Buick-GMC stores (as they have always been in Canada) for people looking for the Acadia, Grand Prix, etc. With the loss of Oldsmobile in Canada, I think some retailers are really hurting. I know I have lost a big chunk of my portfolio as customers with Aleros and Intrigues defect to Buick (doubtfully) or Acura/Nissan/Mazda.

I think the mandarins in Oshawa/Detroit are all on quaaludes, or something. Chevrolet is the golden goose in the U.S., but up here (at least in the Toronto area) we are getting ravaged. Saturn has always been the ugly step-sister, but with the rumours of the Opel product washing up on these shores in the next couple years; well, at least in Canada I suspect it will be a blood letting of Chevrolet dealers. The Opel product for Saturn makes good sense - 10 years late!

The HHR doesn't sell here. We never had anything to match the Vibe. The Pontiac dealers whined until they got the Pursuit/G5 (and we make fun of Ford's name changes!), then the Wave. Chevrolet has never had a cross-over, and we are told it will be a couple more years until one arrives. How many does Ford have now?

When you equip them with the same options the price is just about the same, so for me I'll take my business to GMC so I can get the rebates and have more service locations (over Saturn) should I need them. Chevrolet doesn't have a Cross-over? What do you call the Chevrolet Equinox crossover (made in Canada I might add)??? Pontiac dealers whined did they? I hope they don't read your post, all this whine and no cheese!

Now I'm hungry!

[CARBIZ]

The Equinox replaced 2 vehicles (Tracker/Blazer) and the Tracker actually sold up here. I wouldn't compare the Equinox to the Edge or even the Xterra. Even GM compares it to the Escape. Not quite a cross-over yet, I think. The Pontiac dealers got the Torrent anyway, plus they've had the Aztec (for better or worse!) and Rendezvous to sell. Get my drift? We had to share the Tracker with Suzuki (!) Plus, don't forget the Swift + is sold up here.

And I've tried the dealer argument with customers, but to most people (up here) Suzuki = Chevrolet. I agree with you that if you are stuck in the boonies with a Saturn, you may have a harder time to find a place that can fix it than a Chevy or GMC, but most people don't care, especially up in Canada.

Yes, I am whining, but only because I think GM made a mistake with killing Olds in favor of Saturn (which is what this topic is about) and now they are threatening Chevrolet in Canada with the Opel product going to Saturn. Small vehicles sell up here. When the U.S. hits $4 a gallon gas, Optras, Aveos will sell, but Opels will sell better.

The U.S. is a very different world. The Silverado outsold the Sierra last year 3:1 - in Canada, the Sierra actually ousold the Silverado, not by much (1,700 units or something like that).

I am sure most hobbyists on this board don't care about the fate of dealers; some even have open contempt for them, but I do know that as dealer margins have been squeezed tighter and tighter, the frills like free coffee, loaner vehicles, etc. are all going out the window. None of that is good for customer service. GM's 8 divisions are being pitted against each other and I think the U.S. has yet to feel the pinch.

Remember: a good dealer up here sells 150 retail units a month; whereas in the States they will do that in a week.

[trinacriabob]

It showed me that GM is getting smart. They were stretched thin, too many brands.

Ninety-Eight Regency will hate me, but I see Satty's point. And I absolutely love Oldsmobile -- I grew up with them, they were my first cars and I was hoping that there would have been an Intrigue around for my next purchase. &#036;h&#33;, when the announcement came out on TV, my stomach sank and I thought "no sitting at the dealership checking the boxes on an order form to get a sexy Intrigue just the way I want it." A very glum feeling, indeed.

I maintain that the problem was duplication. Yes, as Bobo says, Olds was the purveyor of innovative design. That ceased by the time the 70s rolled around - purveying a POS diesel conversion did not help much, either. But, by the 70s and 80s, they duped virtually every Buick model on a 1:1 basis....Toro to Riv, 98 to Park Avenue, 88 to LeSabre, Intrigue to Regal, Ciera to Century, etc...you get the idea.

Mind you, I would say that each Olds model was always better looking than its Buick counterpart and I would always opt for the Olds model handily. However, they must have done their research and concluded that the curtain would fall on Olds and not Buick. I think all of the other divisions are readily identifiable - Cadillac is clearly the top of the heap, Buick is upper middle class luxury and quality, Pontiac is sporty, Chev is the "apple pie" baseline and Saturn is the brand with Japanese sensibilities and styling cues (more so than the others, anyway). If Olds was around, it would have been just like Buick (upper middle class luxury and quality). Now that is duplication.

I think GM is getting better. I can forgive them for the demise of Oldsmobile....sad as it is to acknowledge.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I am not going to get upset with you. Why would I? You are entitled to your opinion.

I still say it was a mistake to get rid of Oldsmobile. Long story. I can tell you this... the only reason why Buick is still here is because of the success of Buick in China. That has ensured Buick's future in the United States.

Oldsmobile like Pontiac and Buick should have been allowed to live as a smaller boutique brands sold under another GM division. I posted that video in another thread. That sign is what should have happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIMMcNVSA5E

It is at the one second mark.

Saturn did not replace Oldsmobile. It is a smaller dealership network and Saturn is the import brand. I see Saturn as useful because they do not carry the legacy of the other GM brands and it can attract people who would not consider GM period.

If Saturn replaced Oldsmobile they would be in my driveway and they would offer the features I look for in a vehicle. They do not.

The only GM division that was like Oldsmobile is not even sold in this country. That is Holden. It will be as a Pontiac G8, but I am speaking of the entire division.

Bob Lutz even said it should have not happened and had he been here at GM sooner, what is in that video would have happened. GM has even half way admitted it was a mistake. They will never fully say it.

And yes, Oldsmobile people did not go to other GM divisions.

The only two cars that are like my cars are sold at Lincoln:

Lincoln Town Car

Lincoln Mark VIII

Edited March 25, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[ehaase]

The phase out of Oldsmobile just makes me sad how GM angered so many Americans with the shoddiness of its vehicles during the 1970's and 1980's and how many Americans won't give GM another chance, unless Toyota, Honda, and BMW make a lot of catastrophic mistakes. The phase out of Oldsmobile also makes me sad that GM wasted so much money on the Saturn brand. The 1991 Saturn S series should have ben the 1991 Cavalier.

[trinacriabob]

The phase out of Oldsmobile just makes me sad how GM angered so many Americans with the shoddiness of its vehicles during the 1970's and 1980's and how many Americans won't give GM another chance, unless Toyota, Honda, and BMW make a lot of catastrophic mistakes.

Well put. The "pie" got smaller. Had the pie remained larger and there were fewer cannibalization issues, Olds might have survived...and today I could be salivating over ordering my Intrigue.

[AxelTheRed]

And yes, Oldsmobile people did not go to other GM divisions.

Not true. When Olds got phased out, I hopped up the product ladder and became a rabid Buick fan. Unfortunately, there really hasn't been much to cheer about at Buick for a while, from low sales, lackluster products and demolition of Buick City.

[trinacriabob]

Not true. When Olds got phased out, I hopped up the product ladder and became a rabid Buick fan. Unfortunately, there really hasn't been much to cheer about at Buick for a while, from low sales, lackluster products and demolition of Buick City.

I've heard both arguments. However, I will go with Axel on this one.

When Olds went away, I turned my attention to Buick and, to a lesser extent, to Pontiac. I think that, if people really liked the brand and had a good rapport with GM, they would stay within the family and go Buick. I don't think Toyota Camries and Honda products have the same feel and packaging as an Oldsmobile, so Buick is the logical choice. At any rate, on this ladder you speak of, the offerings and price points differed by very little.

[Brougham-Holiday]

Not true. When Olds got phased out, I hopped up the product ladder and became a rabid Buick fan. Unfortunately, there really hasn't been much to cheer about at Buick for a while, from low sales, lackluster products and demolition of Buick City.

This is true is some cases. My cars are older but i have 2 Olds and a Buick, and they have a lot in common, but I like the Olds a lot more then the Buick. So did my uncle, who has had 5 Oldsmobiles, he now drives an Acura.

[Duncan]

The 1991 Saturn S series should have ben the 1991 Cavalier.

Excellent point. In the late 1980s, while GM engineers were busy finalizing the Saturn design, the J-car was in the midst of its second facelift. Once the S-series finally arrived in 1991, the Cav and Sunbird received a second (and increasingly more obvious) facelift rather than being fully replaced - like they should have been back in 1988.

Had the proven Cavalier and Sunbird brand names been introduced with the Saturn's (then-impressive) overhead-cam engines and plastic-bodied, spaceframe technology, they would have been an absolute knockout in a world of sticker-plus-profit Civics and Corollas (not to mention shoddy Escorts and warmed-over Shadows or Sundances). Increased sales would, of course, have opened up more funds for further development, which might have led to a much better range of small cars.

Instead, GM wasted copious amounts of money building goodwill for an entirely new plant and branding exercise, rather than simply reworking and renegotiating with an existing plant to use the Toyota System or using existing dealers who were already starved for good product. (Not to mention that had Chevy gotten good small cars to begin with, there would have been no need to try-and-fail with the Geo brand, either.)

Then they failed miserably with the L-series (a singularly boring car in almost all respects - more boring than a Camry, which is saying something), and lost even more money. It finally took America's irrational love for sport-utes of all kinds for Saturn to have another solid hit - and even then, they compromised the whole point of the Saturn project by caving in and buying (what else?) Honda V6 engines in an effort to keep these cash cows trouble-free.

All I can hope is that GM's finally learned something from this messy experience. The new Astra is a good start, and well overdue - but then, as mentioned before, had GMNA spent its money in the right place the first time, there'd be no need now to IMPORT SATURNS FROM BELGIUM.

Different kind of car, my ass. From a different country, maybe. I like the idea of having Opels here again, but maybe we could be special-ordering them from an Oldsmobile dealer now instead of buying them in stripped-down form with Saturn badges.

Long rant, but you get the point, I hope.

[OldsGuy]

I still view GM in the same way, it's too bad Olds had to go though. I recommend the book 'Setting the Pace'.

[Guest Disco Dan]

On 3/24/2007 at 3:22 AM, Duncan said:

...I'd look for a used Envoy. Or, failing that, a Grand Cherokee with a Hemi.

Then again, I'm not really an SUV/CUV/whatever fan...I like my trucks a bit huskier, even if they don't handle as well.

I too still mourn Oldsmobile (mainly for the loss of such a historic and long-lived nameplate), though Satty's point is probably correct - one of those three divisions was going to be removed, and if I had to choose it would have been Buick - Olds was better-positioned (even in a weakened state) to take on the Acuras and Infinitis of the world. (Cadillac is pitched a bit higher in the world, and deservedly so.)

Imagine what we'd be looking at now if Buick had been excised instead - a third-gen Intrigue or Aurora on the new Commodore architecture, probably carrying a small Northstar in top spec. An Epsilon-based Alero (or Cutlass!) with the 3.6 DOHC. And probably a fourth-gen Bravada instead of the Outlook, which seems overpriced and outsized to me as a Saturn.

Though many of you praise what Saturn is becoming, I can't say I agree. They started out with a much more focused goal (beating back the imports by doing it their way) and have ended up as just another cookie-cutter under the GM umbrella - a Chevy with more flash, or a Pontiac for less cash. The only distinctive thing about them is that they're the closest we'll ever get to driving an Opel or Vauxhall, and even that's not close enough for me.

Oldsmobile, we knew ye well. Maybe someday, when GM finally gets their testicles out of Honda's firm grasp, we'll see you again.

Bravo! Buick is too close to Cadillac's market. Olds was right in the middle between Chevrolet and Cadillac. I loved Oldsmobile styling back in the day.  They achieved such a great balance between sportiness and luxury. That's why the cutlass was so popular. Besides, Oldsmobile was the most historic and it should have been saved.