High Performance

[Sixty8panther]

I voted RWD. Manual trans. is almost as essential but I'd raher have a automatic RWD car than a FWD wiht a manual. As much as I'm into Muscle Cars I've driven plenty of four and six cylinder cars that had a ton of power... even ones without a huffer. For instance given the choice I'd take a '72 Datsun 510 over an '06 Monte Carlo 5.3, or a Cobalt SS over a '96 Taurus SHO. (but then who in their right mind wouldn't?) Edited September 23, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[razoredge]

None of the above performance = duration over time American built, Buick or Oldsmobile powered my priorities are straight

[siegen]

RWD, 6sp Manual, 2004+ S2000 (the one with the F22C engine). 240whp with 2.2 n/a liters in a 2800lb Roadster.

[LosAngeles]

Yeah, you should add "none of the above" to the list There is no absolute essential, as long as it goes fast good, accelerates great, and handles better....plus most importantly of all, looks the business, and doesn't give off that throwaway car vibe. If that's a front-drive NA V-6 automatic sedan, so be it.

[Sixty8panther]

If that's a front-drive NA V-6 automatic sedan, so be it.

[post="19132"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'd rather walk or use my Rollerblades! :puke:

As far as None of the Above, I don't want people to be on the fence. Pick one, don't be afraid to go with your gut instinct.

[Flybrian]

Performance is relative to the car.

[HarleyEarl]

I voted V8/12.....I could do without all the rest. Power just seduces me.

[NOS2006]

RWD baby

[razoredge]

oh yea thats me, my soul purpose for existance is to get a Datsun 510, the styling, the power, plush interior and all the performance features.........sorry I could think of better ways to waste 50 bucks

I need substance and will stick with what I know as quality, the rest is irrelevant if the package comes together nicely

[razoredge]

now highly [tuned suspension] would have been a choice that held some pavement

[Cory Wolfe]

My gut instinct... None of the above. Razor said it quite nicely. RWD? FWD is more practical and the GP GXP is proof that torque steer doesn't have to be an issue. Manual? Tapshift or such is easier being that there is no clutch and you still decide when to shift. V8 or V12? If the vehicle is light enough, a 4cyl can be great for performance... Like the Elise. Forced induction? All I have to say is that the LS7 in the new Z06 is naturally aspirated. It kills. See? None of the above. :D

[siegen]

Manual? Tapshift or such is easier being that there is no clutch and you still decide when to shift.

[post="19244"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There's nothing like a manual transmission. I honestly don't think anything will ever replace it, and it will always be an option even when CVT transmissions are standard on every car. It's hard to explain why, I think it has something to do with having your feet and hands directly connected to the car, in a way. Being able to set the engine free at any moment. It also has the most flexibility as far as driving is concerned (being able to rev anytime, between gears, etc. Being able to feather the clutch). Edited September 24, 2005 by siegen

[Sixty8panther]

Manual? Tapshift or such is easier being that there is no clutch and you still decide when to shift.

[post="19244"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BLASPHEMY!!!

Go drive a Chrysler (Sebring or Intrepid for instance) or a VW or even a Audi and you'll never say such silliness again. Opting for a tap-shift instead of a full manual is like buying Gran Turismo 4 and a Playstation instead of buying a real Vette/Camaro.

I hate clutchless manuals. I'm not dumb. I don;t need some marketing B.S. I can "manually" shift my '79 Deville, '97 STS and I already shift my '68 Camaro's TH350 manually. I don't even have a throttle kick-down cable on the '68.

Stupid marketing fluff. <_< :angry: Edited September 24, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[razoredge]

There's nothing like a manual transmission. I honestly don't think anything will ever replace it, and it will always be an option even when CVT transmissions are standard on every car. It's hard to explain why, I think it has something to do with having your feet and hands directly connected to the car, in a way. Being able to set the engine free at any moment. It also has the most flexibility as far as driving is concerned (being able to rev anytime, between gears, etc. Being able to feather the clutch).

[post="19322"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I like standards too - sometimes but automatics have their benefits

Reving anytime and between gears? - is this a Harley Davidson kind of thing ?

Feathering the clutch ? - this is to increase the rate of ware ?

Ive drivin alot, trucks, sports cars, machinery you name it. A Fuller Roadranger be it a 8sp or a 15 you shift without the clutch, by the end of the day you swear if you ever had to shift one more time you would scream. I can take them back down through the gears for slowing with left foot on the brake and right on throttle (no clutch) becasue you do need to match engine RPM with tranny shaft RPM. I could also heal and toe on a sports car thats built for it, but I never remember feathering the clutch or reving anyol'time, sounds like a Harley guy at the gas pumps :unsure:

I watch alot of WRC and GP and road racing and that tap shift looks like the greatest thing since user friendy women.

[pow]

BLASPHEMY!!!

Go drive a Chrysler (Sebring or Intrepid for instance) or a VW or even a Audi and you'll never say such silliness again. Opting for a tap-shift instead of a full manual is like buying Gran Turismo 4 and a Playstation instead of buying a real Vette/Camaro.

I hate clutchless manuals. I'm not dumb. I don;t need some marketing B.S. I can "manually" shift my '79 Deville, '97 STS and I already shift my '68 Camaro's TH350 manually. I don't even have a throttle kick-down cable on the '68.

Stupid marketing fluff.  <_<  :angry:

[post="19352"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There are noticeable exceptions. I'd be bored stiff in an automatic econobox, but would much prefer a sequential manual in a Ferrari F430, Enzo, or F1 car. Oh, wait, they only come with F1-style gearboxes.

[Cory Wolfe]

There's nothing like a manual transmission. I honestly don't think anything will ever replace it, and it will always be an option even when CVT transmissions are standard on every car. It's hard to explain why, I think it has something to do with having your feet and hands directly connected to the car, in a way. Being able to set the engine free at any moment. It also has the most flexibility as far as driving is concerned (being able to rev anytime, between gears, etc. Being able to feather the clutch).

I know what a fully manual transmission is like... I have one. I would take one over anything. I was just making my point that it isn't the most important... as with everything else.

Also, what about sequential transmissions? I'm not sure what the hell Empowah meant... but he reminded me of them.

[Satty]

This is about performance, right? A good automatic will shift a hell of alot faster than any driver with a stick.

[mustang84]

RWD? FWD is more practical and the GP GXP is proof that torque steer doesn't have to be an issue.

[post="19244"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

FWD is more practical for family cars, but RWD will always be preferred for sports cars, even with torque steer tuned out to be almost non-existent. The weight balance in a RWD car is closer to 50/50, and with FWD you're stuffing the drivetrain up with the engine...it's just too messy and heavy. There is a reason that you will never see FWD Benzes or Beamers.

[Sixty8panther]

Thanks Mustang... and BTW Satty: I'll give up 3/10 of a second at the track for a more durable, more lightweight, zero-maintenance and fun to drive tranny versus a big heavy clunky automatic. Another reason why I think a lot of Sports/Exotic car manufacturers are going to shit. An automatic Ferrari? Give me a break. If I'm paying that kind of money for a Ferrari or Lambo I'd demand a fully manual trans. That's what is the matter wiht racing these days. No more seat of the pants driving, the iron, grit and determination is no longer a big factor. Now it' sabout computerised this and electronic that. To hell with it. I drove a triptronic POrsche 911 once nad walked away thiking "WHY?!?!" Why spend that kind of money to drive it like it's a '94 Town Car. Racing to me is a '69 Camaro rubbing fenders with a '69 Mustang at Lime Rock or Laguna Seca. 60s and early 70s Trans Am racing was awsome. No computerised bullshit and no excuses. Just a big old carburator on a 4.9 liter V8 and a solid manual trans. And lots of creative, elaborate and sneaky bending of the rules by Smokey and Penske.

[razoredge]

Yea I'd love a old V12 250, 275 or 330 Ferrari with a gated 5 speed but Im afraid I missed the boat on that one. In todays Ferrari world the wealthy potential buyers are probably very excited about getting that F1 tranny. Someone should check out the Cobalt CanAM thread and see where a FWD Chevy is holding its own against BMW's and other RWD competitors on the tracks across America. Not that Im pro FWD only Im just not into all the bashing that is directed at many many cars I love and drive - happily. Non stop bashing, barfing, downing drivers of as being incompetent, acting like one knows some secret driving knowledge that anyone happy with their FWD doesnt have, talking about torque steer like its some uncontrolable dangerous phenom and all the compounded bull shit we have had to endure is just that BullShit. Just today this old boy planted a solid 20 feet off both tires while turning slight left and crossing bridge. Reaching over 60 before the turn just across. i must be one hell of a driver because I damn near lost her - yarite ! It did exactly as it was told and did it swiftly and its a softly sprung 3800lb 4 dr fully loaded family sedan that is unstopable in a snow storm. I should just go hang my head in shame - ey ? Get over it Sly, we dont insult you, your driving or your cars because much like we recieve it would be alot of BullShit ! ;-)

[razoredge]

This says performance to me and I believe it deliveres it as well, I guess this would almost be the GXP prototype.

[pow]

Also, what about sequential transmissions? I'm not sure what the hell Empowah meant... but he reminded me of them.

[post="19467"][/post]

Manual transmissions with a robotized clutch, controlled with flappy paddles:

[Cory Wolfe]

Thank you, Razor... :bowdown:

Manual transmissions with a robotized clutch, controlled with flappy paddles:

That's what I thought. Honestly, what is wrong with this? The absense of a stick? A clutch pedal? Really... What is it? For racing and overall ease of use, it would be much better than a fully manual tranny. Faster shifts, more steering control, less footwork. Seems logical to me...

[Satty]

BV, dont waste your time arguing with old schoolers. Frankly, for track applications, the automated clutch system would be best as far as I can tell. As for it being less reliable, any transmission is vulnerable if it is abused.

[razoredge]

BV, dont waste your time arguing with old schoolers.  Frankly, for track applications, the automated clutch system would be best as far as I can tell.  As for it being less reliable, any transmission is vulnerable if it is abused.

[post="19685"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well theres certainly more to go wrong over time with all the extra electronics and mechanicals.

Tune ito a WRC rally someday if you want to see a slap shift getting a workout. They do shift fast, instantly

This I do not know ? Is there still a floor clutch to start and stop ? On the F1's and these Rally cars that is ?

[HarleyEarl]

Here's what really matters:

[Petra]

I voted for RWD. Face it: If you want to build a car with any kind of serious performance, FWD sucks. AWD is better than FWD, but it sacrifices a light curb weight. Furthermore, it takes a bit more skill to drive a RWD car well, as they lose control more easily than FWD cars (which is partly why FWD cars tend to be boring to drive). Driving a RWD car with a Manual transmission in the snow & ice is an experience everyone should have. Fully Manual Transmission was my second pick. Really, though, I've got no problem with SMGs. If they're good enough for F1...

[Robert Hall]

For a performance car, I prefer RWD and a manual transmission..that's about the only thing in common amongst the types of performance cars I like (everything from Mustangs to BMWs to Porsches to the NSX). Edited September 26, 2005 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

Driving a RWD car with a Manual transmission in the snow & ice is an experience everyone should have.

[post="20219"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

YES! I agree with you 100%. Power sliding and steering with your right foot is a ton of fun. Plus if you do enough of it you can navigate your way through bad conditions wiht confidence. As I've mentioned I've had several RWD 80s cars for "winter beaters".

I want to find out how much ice-racing costs and where exactly it's held near me. I know they have a few events within a hours drive of my house. Usually between Dec. and Feb. on a frozen lake wiht cones set up. I'd LOVE to do that in my Datsun or the Camaro. A friend of a friend used ot race an early 80s Monte Carlo in ice-racing events. :D (they have FWD, RWD and AWD categories)

Moltar: For a performance car, I prefer RWD and a manual transmission..that's about the only thing in common amongst the types of performance cars I like (everything from Mustangs to BMWs to Porsches to the NSX).

I would argue that is the DEFINITION of a true performance car. A compromise is a compromise, no matter how small. FWD and an Automatic are NOT performance/fun oriented. This is the same reason I actualy like the Lexus IS300 and classic Toyotas wiht RWD. Edited September 26, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[razoredge]

Bla, bla, bla, ba, bla, bla, bla Anyhow I believe amature Ice racing has been takin over by "Blazers" and "Broncos". At least thats all I saw on the ice last time, quite a few years ago.

[capriceman]

i :wub: V8's

[Cory Wolfe]

FWD and an Automatic are NOT performance/fun oriented.

What are you telling? ...That there is no way in hell that the GP GXP could be fun and isn't performance oriented? Is that it? I'd like to know... because if that's the case, I STRONGLY disagree. If you have read C&D's October issue... you would have seen them say "The net is a forgiving and capable four-door, arguably the most entertaining sedan Pontiac has ever offered." Most entertaining?!?!? ...Even more than Pontiac's past RWD cars?!?!? How is that possible?!?!? OMG?!?!? Also it gets higher Gs on the skidpad than the RWD Charger R/T. What?!?!? How can that be?!?!? Did I mention it is also just as fast, gets better gas mileage, is cheaper, and "a driver can induce a little oversteer." What?!?!? Oversteer?!?!? In a FWD car?!?!? All this and "torque steer is not a serious issue", "The V8 delivers effortless performance to this front-driver, and the GXP copes gracefully with the power" and "it's one of the most memorable sporting American sedans I've driven in a gawdawful long time." Interesting. :huh:

[LosAngeles]

This is about performance, right?  A good automatic will shift a hell of alot faster than any driver with a stick.

[post="19473"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It ain't about fast shifts to stick drivers, it's about control of the engine's power. And regardless of the car, some of the power will be lost with the slushbox

[LosAngeles]

There is a reason that you will never see FWD Benzes

[post="19484"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not so fast, my friend....A- and B-classes are front-drive....

[razoredge]

:CG_all:

[LosAngeles]

I wonder why no one voted forced induction...you guys don't like turbos? I know it's not ESSENTIAL, but still....

[bobo]

RWD. A performance car does not need a V-8. There are plenty of high-performance sixes out there that prove that. Automatics have gotten so good that they usually cannot be considered a major drawback to performance. A car with an automatic will not be as much fun, but I doubt most people will be able to wring the extra performance from the stick. I prefer a car without a blower, so there's none of that annoying turbo lag or supercharger whine. As for the Pontiac GP GXP, that car is no fun to me at all. It may have good straight-line acceleration and have good performance numbers, but being so nose-heavy, it just does not feel balanced at all, especially compared to its stablemate GTO.

[razoredge]

Just because it not essential, just like all of the choises here are not essential. Suspension is esscential. power to weight has relevance. My self Id like my performance car to be roofless. Id like my performance car to be sexy. You can have a V8 4 speed RWD heavily sprung pickup truck too. Is that a performance car ?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Definately manual transmission. All of the others are just different flavors of performance.

[Robert Hall]

Not so fast, my friend....A- and B-classes are front-drive....

True..but the serious ones are all RWD (with AWD optional on some).

[aaaantoine]

For me, the most important aspect of a car is how well it handles in the 60-80 mph range or on tight curves. Long Islanders, if you ever get the chance, go out on the Southern State Parkway on a quiet night. B)

[Cory Wolfe]

Guys... I need help. I don't know how to explain this experience I had. Well, while I was driving my 4cyl/5spd FWD Grand Am GT on the tricky back roads around here... I felt this sensation. I can't explain it... it like... put a smile on my face. I enjoyed it. It felt good and I want to feel it again by taking another ride in my 4cyl/5spd FWD Grand Am GT. I just don't know what it's called... Do any of you guys know? Sixty8, perhaps?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

a manual transmission, any car feels "sporty" with a manual because your in controll of the engine, not some stupid computer.

[Sixty8panther]

I love V8s. I'm obsessed wiht them. I have FOUR V8 poweered cars in my driveway right now:

5.7 SBC
4.6 DOHC No*
5.0 Olds
7.0 Caddy (425)

That being said as far as a performance car or even sports sedan goes RWD is more important than a V8. I might have said in High school that a V8 is the Beat-all single most awsome feature in a car but in reality I'd never take a FWD Bonneville or another STS over a BMW 530 or even (gasp!!!!) Lexus IS300 wiht a stick. Inline sixes kick ass!

BV: the sacrasm is cute. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif :rolleyes:

Edited September 28, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[Cory Wolfe]

I know... Isn't it? I think I have found what it's called, though. Fun... does that sound right? I think that's it. Oh wait... you said FWD isn't fun oriented; meaning you can't have fun in one. Oops... sorry. I guess I'll never know what that sensation was.... However, I would take an IS300 over a Bonneville too... It looks awesome and drives awesome too. Plus, it's small; a definite plus in my book. One of my 2nd cousins has a black one... She lives in New York and let me drive it the last time she came down. Hey, what can I say, I enjoyed it. So... no real surprise here, Sixty8. Anyways, are you ever going to lay off the FWD bashing? And your mixed feelings of it? You always bash it by saying something like "this car's tragically flawed... it's FWD" or "FWD cannot be fun or performance oriented" or even "FWD is the devil". Okay... I don't think you've actually said the last one, but your one sig in which God created RWD would make it seem that you think that. Anyways, when I call you out for it, you start going on about how many FWD cars you like and yadda, yadda, yadda. So, really, what's the deal? :huh: Oh... and you still haven't come up with a responce to the GP GXP... :D So... :lol: :P

[Flybrian]

I'd never take a FWD Bonneville...over a BMW 530 or even (gasp!!!!) Lexus IS300 wiht a stick. Inline sixes kick ass!

[post="21184"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

However, I would take an IS300 over a Bonneville too...

[post="21204"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You both can go straight to hell - drop down, sixth ring, cook. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

id uh take a new Civic Si over a bonneville :unsure:

[LosAngeles]

as far as a performance car or even sports sedan goes

[post="21184"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sports sedans aren't performance cars?



Can people who post here begin watching their biases at least slightly?

No offense to any one person, but the lot of you have really been overdoing it lately....

[Nick]

I love V8s. I'm obsessed wiht them. I have FOUR V8 poweered cars in my driveway right now:

5.7 SBC
4.6 DOHC No*
5.0 Olds
7.0 Caddy (425)

That being said as far as a performance car or even sports sedan goes RWD is more important than a V8. I might have said in High school that a V8 is the Beat-all single most awsome feature in a car but in reality I'd never take a FWD Bonneville or another STS over a BMW 530 or even (gasp!!!!) Lexus IS300 wiht a stick. Inline sixes kick ass!

BV: the sacrasm is cute.  http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif  :rolleyes:

[post="21184"][/post]

I6's are awesome aren't they? I never knew the engine in the IS300 was an inline, but the BMW I6's are deffinitely nice engines...they have a great sound to them especially.