Another good read

[Camino LS6]

Check it out:

http://chirpthird.com/vb/showthread.php?p=79637#post79637

[bcs296]

Check it out:

http://chirpthird.com/vb/showthread.php?p=79637#post79637

228163[/snapback]

That was a good read. Points out the same old problem: the discrepancy between perception and reality -- GM = bad, Toyota = good.

[LTB51]

At least that poster didn't let facts stand in the way of his rant.

"Meanwhile, GM gets kicked for being a laggard in fuel economy, although, vehicle category by category, it has more fuel-efficient vehicles than Toyota. "

According to the EPA (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/), Toyota beats GM in the following categories:

Small Car

Upscale Sedans

Luxury Sedans

Large Sedans

Pickups

SUVs

etc.

And that is even when exluding their hybrids. And I believe Toyota is #1 in the majority of those categories. (GM does manage to tie Toyota in the Family Sedans category and the Solstice/Sky and G5 beat the Solara in the convertible and coupe categories.)

I'm glad GM is doing better, but they have earned their reputation well. The new hybrid may do well, but their current hybrids are only moderately better than what Honda or Toyota can do with a regular 4 cyl (if the Aura numbers are anything to go by). The next gen GM hybrid is going to have to be >40% better than their current one in the Aura just to catch the existing Camry hybrid. Not to mention that the stats that Toyota has been talking about for the next gen prius are even more impressive.

It is time for GM to put up or shut up. They screwed up when it came to hybrids and now they are playing catch up. The GM spin machine can try all they want to get us to ignore the reality of the present, but the fact that they put a 4AT in the hybrid VUE (when the V6 non-hybrids get a 5AT) shows that they are still clueless.

On a side note, what kind of idiot developed the menu system on the Saturn site?

http://www.saturn.com/saturn/SaturnIndex.jsp

Go ahead and put your mouse over the name of a car in the menu that is to the right of the name of the car that is being displayed in the main picture. Insane.

Edited December 16, 2006 by LTB51

[thegriffon]

The EPA's fuel-economy categories bear no relation to their standard size categories, or apparently any relation to reality at all. Beside no-one said most fuel efficient vehicle, but more vehicles in more categories.

GM lags in compact pickups true, but in fullsize pickups is the leader by far. Sierra and Silverado V8 hybrids compare with 6-cylinder compacts, and the standard 6-cyl Sierra and Silverado aren't far behind, ahead of the lighter, smaller Toyota Tundra. 4wd fullsize pickups, again it's the GM hybrid pair. Standard V8 fullsize pickups, again it's GM with the Silverado and Sierra, in both 2wd and 4wd. The only GM fullsize pickups not to beat the V8 Tundra are the 6.0 L Classics.

SUVs and crossovers? The Saturn Vue hybrid matches the Highlander and Rx400 overall, behind the Mariner and Escape. Among compact crossovers the l;ead is taken by the Patriot and Compass. In the D-segment, the RAV4 takes the 4-cyl and 6-cyl, 2wd & 4wd lead. GM has no entry against the 4-cyl Highlander, but the Equinox, Torrent and Rendezvous all beat the Highlander V6. Toyota wins midsize SUVs with the 4Runner, GM owns fullsize SUVs with the V8 Tahoe and Yukon beating the V6 Trailblazer. Even the Suburban and Yukon XL beat the Sequoia, and the only SUVs with worse economy than the LX470 and LandCruiser are the AMG ML63 and the GRand Cherokee SRT-8 which at least have the excuse of producing substantially more than 400 hp, instead of substantially less than 300.

Toyota beats GM in fwd V6 minivans, but is no better for 4wd models.

The Solara just beats the G6, in both coupe and cabrio.

The Scion tC is handily beaten by the Ion, Cobalt and G5, which shows that GM really needs a smaller engine to beat the Corolla.

Avalon beats the Impala, by 1 mpg in city driving.

For midsize 4-cyl sedans, Malibu and Accord autos match the Camry manual and beat the Camry auto. The best V6 is the Malibu, just ahead of the Camry.

In luxury cars, the ES350 beats the Saab 95, while the GS350 beats the CTS and STS V6s, but the GS430 gains 1 mpg in the city and loses 2 mpg on the hwy compared to the STS V8.

[Mr.Krinkle]

At least that poster didn't let facts stand in the way of his rant.

"Meanwhile, GM gets kicked for being a laggard in fuel economy, although, vehicle category by category, it has more fuel-efficient vehicles than Toyota. "

According to the EPA (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/), Toyota beats GM in the following categories:

Small Car

Upscale Sedans

Luxury Sedans

Large Sedans

Pickups

SUVs

etc.

And that is even when exluding their hybrids.  And I believe Toyota is #1 in the majority of those categories. (GM does manage to tie Toyota in the Family Sedans category and the Solstice/Sky and G5 beat the Solara in the convertible and coupe categories.)

I'm glad GM is doing better, but they have earned their reputation well.  The new hybrid may do well, but their current hybrids are only moderately better than what Honda or Toyota can do with a regular 4 cyl (if the Aura numbers are anything to go by).  The next gen GM hybrid is going to have to be >40% better than their current one in the Aura just to catch the existing Camry hybrid.  Not to mention that the stats that Toyota has been talking about for the next gen prius are even more impressive.

The GM spin machine can try all they want to get us to ignore the reality of the present, but the fact that they put a 4AT in the hybrid VUE (when the V6 non-hybrids get a 5AT) shows that they are still clueless.

On a side note, what kind of idiot developed the menu system on the Saturn site? 

http://www.saturn.com/saturn/SaturnIndex.jsp

Go ahead and put your mouse over the name of a car in the menu that is to the right of the name of the car that is being displayed in the main picture.  Insane.

228481[/snapback]

What a lovely post. How long did it take you to craft this gem?

It is time for GM to put up or shut up.  They screwed up when it came to hybrids and now they are playing catch up.

How about you go and take the time to calculate the benefits

that the GM hybrid buses have yielded? ...what was that contribution?... That will be the mark when it is looked back upon. No? It should.

The hybrids like the prius will go down as a blip on the radar compared to the stuff that Gm is working on right now. And Honda, and BWM...and Toyota is left twiddling their thumbs.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[thegriffon]

… The new hybrid may do well, but their current hybrids are only moderately better than what Honda or Toyota can do with a regular 4 cyl (if the Aura numbers are anything to go by).  The next gen GM hybrid is going to have to be >40% better than their current one in the Aura just to catch the existing Camry hybrid. …

228481[/snapback]

There are no stats for the Aura Hybrid, and when you get them they will be revised 2008 EPA numbers, not the old 2007 numbers you have for the Camry. Based on GM's imprecise claims (25% improvement on the V6), economy will be somewhere between the Camry and Accord Hybrid in the city, possibly better than Camry on the hwy (consistent with the Vue).

Don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

[Camino LS6]

It's getting harder to be an import-humper without looking like a fool.

And that's a good thing.

[CARBIZ]

LTB51 never lets facts stand in the way of his rants.

[toyoguy]

SUVs and crossovers? The Saturn Vue hybrid matches the Highlander and Rx400 overall, behind the Mariner and Escape.

228501[/snapback]

you going to compare a V6 hybrid to a 4cyl hybrid

The Scion tC is handily beaten by the Ion, Cobalt and G5, which shows that GM really needs a smaller engine to beat the Corolla.

228501[/snapback]

no it doesn't, and that's not a valid excuse for the Cobalt's lousy fuel economy.

2.2L or 2.4L Cobalt

25/34

24/32

2.4L 158hp Camry

24/34

24/33

1.8L 126hp Corolla

32/41

30/38

For midsize 4-cyl sedans, Malibu and Accord autos match the Camry manual and beat the Camry auto.

228501[/snapback]

Chevrolet Malibu

2.2L 144hp

24/34

Toyota Camry

2.4L 158hp

24/34

24/33

The best V6 is the Malibu, just ahead of the Camry.

228501[/snapback]

too bad it's missing 51hp on a V6 Camry.

3.9L 240hp Malibu

18/26mpg

3.5L V6 Camry

22/31

Avalon beats the Impala, by 1 mpg in city driving.

228501[/snapback]

Again you insist on comparing a significantly more powerful Avalon to the Impala.

Impala 3.5L

21/31

3.9L

20/29

Avalon

22/31

In luxury cars, the ES350 beats the Saab 95, while the GS350 beats the CTS and STS V6s, but the GS430 gains 1 mpg in the city and loses 2 mpg on the hwy compared to the STS V8.

228501[/snapback]

More like trumps it.

GS350

21/29

CTS 3.6L

18/27

LS460 (380hp) 19/27

STS (320hp) 17/27

DTS 17/25 (275hp) or 17/24 (292hp)

Toyota beats GM in fwd V6 minivans, but is no better for 4wd models.

228501[/snapback]

Sienna

20/27

18/23 (awd)

Uplander

18/25

what GM awd minivans???

so what about vehicles you left out like.

Aveo vs Yaris

Colorado vs Tacoma

H3 vs FJ

RX350 vs Lambda

Edited December 16, 2006 by toyoguy

[toyoguy]

It is time for GM to put up or shut up.  They screwed up when it came to hybrids and now they are playing catch up. The GM spin machine can try all they want to get us to ignore the reality of the present...

228481[/snapback]

[Mr.Krinkle]

It is time for GM to put up or shut up. They screwed up when it came to hybrids

What do you have, $h! for brains? How exactly did they screw up? Toyotas hybrids are band aids that only appease the media types. They are ineffecient and hardly worth the trouble.

The real gains from hybrid technology are seen in mass transit. GM did not screw up hybrids rather they screwed up in marketing their buses.

The next generation of "hybrids" an alternate fuel will further make the Prius look like a joke. 30 years from now people will be laughing at this feeble attempt to conserve energy and will only learn how to use public relations and successfully market a product.

228583[/snapback]

The 235 hybrid buses that operate in the Seattle area are expected to save 750,000 gallons of fuel per year over the buses they will replace. Over the 12-year life cycle of the vehicles, the total savings is expected to be 8 million gallons of fuel.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4022529

If America's nine largest cities replaced their transit fleets—totaling 13,000 buses—with GM's hybrid buses, GM states the cities would save 40 million gallons of fuel each year—a greater savings than 500,000 small hybrid vehicles.

[CARBIZ]

These rice humpers should just crawl back under their rocks. I drive the current Malibu 2.2 ecotec, and I can tell you that in real world conditions, its gas mileage is the same as the vaunted Camry 4 cylinder. These EPA numbers are total $h!. NObody drives like that, not even my great aunt.

Anemic, high horsepower/low torque Civics and Corollas, especially with their crappy Japanese automatics, get nowhere near their advertised numbers in real world driving. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Japan Inc. drags out these totally fictional numbers to "prove" their cars get better gas mileage, yet when you try and get those numbers on your own - SUPRISE!

Your real-world Cobalt numbers will drop 10-14%, but the Civic numbers will drop a lot more. Take off your blinders, rice humpers, and do some real world driving comparisons yourself.

Better yet, come visit me and we can drive a Corolla and Cobalt back to back. I can sell you both.

[thegriffon]

so what about vehicles you left out like.

Aveo vs Yaris

Colorado vs Tacoma

H3 vs FJ

RX350 vs Lambda

228582[/snapback]

You want me to say the Aveo beats the Yaris, and the Colorado beats the Tacoma? They don't.

I know you've seen comparisons between the H3 and FJ Cruiser, but the FJ is really a smaller size class than the H3, up against the Xterra, Nitro and Sorento. If Toyota were to stretch it and add some proper rear doors, then maybe so, but of course they already have the 4Runner, which has the best 6-cylinder economy in the midsize SUV segment. Just don't buy the craptacular V8 model.

The RX350 is not in the same class as the Lambdas, or any other GM crossover. Perhaps when the Cadillac BRX and Saab 9-4X come out you'll have something to compare it to, but that's years away. Toyota doesn't have anything directly comparable to the SRX or any of the Lambdas. Perhaps the HPX concept would get better economy than the SRX, but that's a rather pointless argument, since they don't build or sell the Lexus HPX, nor anything as big as the Lambdas except the Sequoia, which sucks less gas than a LandCruiser, but is still one of the weakest, thirstiest SUVs you can waste your money on. The only thing you can fairly compare the Lambdas to at present are the Pacifica, Freestyle and at a stretch the more expensive Q7. In a few weeks you can add the CX-9 (unlike the lambdas, officially a 2007, even though you can't get one yet). Of course they will all have 2007 numbers, while the lambdas seem to be all 2008s.