Omega is returning?

[ToniCipriani]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/...new-opel-models

...rumours development of a new Omega has been resumed, after the project Insigna was dumped. Earlier news was that for economical reasons a new generation Omega was out of question. But without this model, Opel would lack a true top of the line model, and it would have been difficult to convince high-end Opel customers to stick to the make.

Opel's Zeta, maybe?

[VenSeattle]

I take it back Toni. Saturn may get Zeta afterall! If that happens, a particular excitement brand may be done for. If the pic is even close to looking like a true Saturn/Opel Zeta, then it will look fantastic! Maxima & Avalon would die and the LX vehicles would become a generation behind overnight.

[Croc]

Ven, is that speculation, or do you have insider knowledge to back that up? I thought Pontiac's future was looking more secure...

[FAPTurbo]

Oh Jesus! The 'Excitement Brand' could be going away?!

But I love Daewoo!

[VenSeattle]

Ven, is that speculation, or do you have insider knowledge to back that up?  I thought Pontiac's future was looking more secure...

227985[/snapback]

It's only speculation... my comment is a continuation from subjects recently discussed in the following two topics:

Saturn Aura Attracting Foreigners

Beijing Keeping Buick Alive?

I've been extremely busy and playing catch-up in the forum. All the different discussions are coming out in my comments.

[CSpec]

I thought Opel said Zeta was too big for them?

[VenSeattle]

I thought Opel said Zeta was too big for them?

227997[/snapback]

I thought they said Lambda was too big for them? Not Zeta?

[ToniCipriani]

Well, Opel will share models Saturn, but doesn't necessarily mean Saturn will mirror it. Tons of examples of this. Opel has a lot of cars that Saturn doesn't. Agila, Tigra, Zafira, just to name a few. Outlook is a good example too. Even the Opel GT isn't exactly the same as the Sky (product strategy-wise). Sky has a lower trim, whereas the GT is strictly a performance model.

Also, Zeta was just my hypothesis. This car can very well sit on EPII and have AWD.

Edited December 15, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Drew Dowdell]

Hellooooo Saturn Aurora!

[CARBIZ]

When I was in Brazil last year, I saw a 2003 Chevrolet Omega - a not even reskinned Cadillac Catera, in a dealer show room. Made me kind of chuckle.

I think GM is on the right track with bringing Opel product to North America. There are a lot of amazing Opel/Vauxhall product in Europe/South America. However, one warning I would bring forward is the damage this move may do to the Chevrolet name in Canada.

I know that Chevrolet is a power house in the U.S, carrying nearly half the sales for GM; however, in Canada, the numbers are much different. The Sierra outsells the Silverado, the Montana outsold the Venture, etc. Although the Aveo/Optra cars are a decent first start and have done okay here, any untampered-with Opel product given to Saturn will outclass the GM-DAT product for sure.

I hope Oshawa is aware of this and has back up plans for the Chevrolet name in Canada. With the loss of the Oldsmobile line (which was alwas paired with Chevy up here), many Chevy dealers are hurting - more so than their Pontiac-Buick brothers. I can forsee Saturn becoming a power house up here, while Chevrolet withers on the vine.

Overall, the impact on GM may be negligible, but to my way of thinking it makes sense for GM to promote Chevrolet, Buick and Cadillac as the international brands to compete directly with Toyota internationally. If this is the direction GM wants to go internationally, then it makes no sense to me to be pushing the Saturn line so heavily in North America.

Just my two cents.

[MyerShift]

The Opel Insignia concept/prototype was awesome.

And the name alone sounds and appears better than "Omega".

To me, Insignia would demonstrate: "This is the car of Opel. It carries all that we stand for. Insignia, because all of the innovation, beauty, and quality that is Opel will be found here."

Kind of like the "signature" car of the lineup. The flagship.

[the_yellow_dart]

Hellooooo Saturn Aurora!

228111[/snapback]

You think they could use that name without people crying bloody rape?

I actually wish they would...

[keyzi747]

This could really mean the end for Pontiac. Pontiac, of all of GM's brands, has the strongest identity, and GM seems to be lagging in exploiting the brand's heritage. A rear drive Bonneville replacement, rear drive G6 replacement, AND rear drive Grand Prix replacement should have been out 3 or 4 years ago. Why the Firebird, and now the GTO died, is beyond me. The only really good thing going for Pontiac right now, as far as a car that gets people's attention, is the Solstice. This car is a hit, but since it's intro 4 years ago, GM- Pontiac has not managed to follow up with another hit. They are trying to make Pontiac appeal to EVERYONE with the European/ so- called "cleaner" designs, but Pontiac's cars have never been this way. With Saturn possibly having a version of most of Pontiac's models, GM has to make Pontiac more distinct and credible from its other brands or it will be another Olds.

Edited December 16, 2006 by keyzi747

[FAPTurbo]

Pontiac's not going anywhere.

Stop the worryin'.

[FunkyPig]

When I was in Brazil last year, I saw a 2003 Chevrolet Omega - a not even reskinned Cadillac Catera, in a dealer show room.  Made me kind of chuckle.

228126[/snapback]

What you saw was not a Catera but a export version of the Holden Calais (up spec Commodore), a four door GTO effectively. They expotr them to Brasil in very low numbers each year.

[titan]

Ofcourse, this is all speculation... like toni said, we don't even know what platform that's on for sure. Hopefully, though, it's a Zeta. If it is, I see that exact car, with a Velite waterfall grill, ventiports, and the word Lucerne on the rear. Make it happen, GM. Saturn shouldn't get RWD cars, IMHO.

[nzr]

All these Zetas are starting to look the same.

[SilverCadillac]

Saturn does not need a Zeta. Opel COULD use a Zeta - they can agree to disagree on that model.

GM has nothing larger than a midsize (except for extremely low volume Cadillac) in Europe. In NA - Saturn has larger cars at Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and Pontiac. Don't do it.

I'm sorry - i read all the comments from the bashers but commodore and statesman/caprice are clean simple beautiful cars. they can look at the same as long as they're sold in different markets. if those were on sale in NA - i don't care what brand - they would sell.

[zetaman]

All these Zetas are starting to look the same.

228434[/snapback]

There are only 2 variations of the zeta architecture available at this time - a SWB & a LWB. Holden and HSV do multiple variations of these to create differentiation in a market where each model has only a very small run - which is why they do tend to look the same. When the zeta architecture is to be used in other markets you could expect to see far greater differentiation between models due to economies of scale - much like the zeta car in your sig......

It would seem unlikely that Opel would use zeta as their flagship - Zeta is big RWD with Big engines - too far removed I'd think from the Opel philosophy.

Edited December 16, 2006 by zetaman

[ToniCipriani]

But the thing is, the original Omega/Catera platform spawned the previous-gen Commodore platform. So in a sense, Zeta does replace that.

And no one ever said that Zeta must be powered by a V8. It should go nicely with a 3.6L or a 2.8L Turbo as well.

But still, I maintain my point, yes for Opel, no for Saturn.

[zetaman]

But the thing is, the original Omega/Catera platform spawned the previous-gen Commodore platform. So in a sense, Zeta does replace that.

And no one ever said that Zeta must be powered by a V8. It should go nicely with a 3.6L or a 2.8L Turbo as well.

But still, I maintain my point, yes for Opel, no for Saturn.

228525[/snapback]

Yeah all true.. but Opel really doesn't compete with the other RWD marques such as BMW or Mercedes... and they left RWD when the last Omega B ceased production and now embrace FWD technology.. I would love to see a Zeta as the Opel flagship and I hope it happens but I just don't think it likely.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

That chop looks like it was based on a photo of the 2008 Malibu. (Look at the hood cutline and everything beyond the A-pillar. Screams new Malibu to me.)

The car sounds nice, though. Let's hope Saturn gets it's own version.

[ToniCipriani]

That chop looks like it was based on a photo of the 2008 Malibu. (Look at the hood cutline and everything beyond the A-pillar. Screams new Malibu to me.)

The car sounds nice, though. Let's hope Saturn gets it's own version.

228569[/snapback]

I'm actually more convinced the chop was based on the Commodore than the Malibu. Unless WCF somehow got a hold of the 2008 Malibu pics already.

And no Saturn, please. Pontiac will be dead instantly.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Toni, this most definitely was based on some bootlegged Malibu photos. A simple grille change proves the point.

NOTE: it's not the best chop and not even finished, but it gets the job done. WCF broke embargo, to be obvious.

[Flybrian]

Also, look at the proportioning. FWDish.

[ToniCipriani]

Toni, this most definitely was based on some bootlegged Malibu photos. A simple grille change proves the point.

NOTE: it's not the best chop and not even finished, but it gets the job done. WCF broke embargo, to be obvious.

228681[/snapback]

I stand corrected.

But anyhow, if this is the Malibu, that's effin' sweet! Much better than the current one.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I'm working on an upgraded chop and hoping it turns out pretty good.

Suggestions on what to change the color to?

[Flybrian]

What about that 'bright' blue GM loves using lately? Or crimson tricoat?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I'm going to try both -- blue, more than likely.

[TKR]

This photo is of a FWD car. The front wheels are too far back to be a Zeta based vehicle. I think the Malibu tag is correct.

[SimonDavid]

Getting back to the "new Omega" topic..

the market for non-premium badged large cars in Europe is pretty much non existant. There is no Ford larger than a Mondeo (Contour/Mystique) sold here.

The Peugeot 607 sells a few thousand to Paris taxi fleets. There is no large Fiat. The VW Passat is a Mondeo / Vectra competitor. Think small roads, small families, high fuel prices.

The boom is in the premium segment and the new small premium (1 series ) segment, preferaby with deisel engines.

If Opel does want a Zeta I guess it would be simpler to import from Holden on a low volume basis.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Opel could import from Holden on a low level basis. Vauxhall is doing it with the new Commodore . It is making use of your global empire... I assume Opel wants a rear drive car that is affordable to have something different.

[Sixty8panther]

It would seem unlikely that Opel would use zeta as their flagship - Zeta is big RWD with Big engines - too far removed I'd think from the Opel philosophy.

228487[/snapback]

VW can make the Phaeton but Opel can't have a ZETA?

Why not? Europeans are not all poor you know....

[zetaman]

VW can make the Phaeton but Opel can't have a ZETA?

Why not? Europeans are not all poor you know....

229447[/snapback]

Yeah and the Phaeton's been a huge success for VW My point was that Opel have moved away from RWD....And anyway, who said it had anything to do with European socioeconomics?

[SimonDavid]

Im not suggesting Europeans are poor - far from it. But there is simply no great market here for an expensive product without a premium badge. Even in the mid market the 3 series outsells the Mondeo 2 to 1.

The only attempt in recent history was the Phaeton and that was a disaster. But at least it shared its structure and plant with the Toureg and Porsche Cayenne so VW probably got their money back.

I just think that if Opel wants a Zeta to top their range they should import from Holden - there's not enough volume to gear up local production and in any case what is the point when Holden has spare capacity.

[zetaman]

Im not suggesting Europeans are poor - far from it.  But there is simply no great market here for an expensive product without a premium badge.  Even in the mid market the 3 series outsells the Mondeo 2 to 1.

The only attempt in recent history was the Phaeton and that was a disaster.  But at least it shared its structure and plant with the Toureg and Porsche Cayenne so VW probably got their money back.

I just think that if Opel wants a Zeta to top their range they should import from Holden - there's not enough volume to gear up local production and in any case what is the point when Holden has spare capacity.

229806[/snapback]

^^Couldn't agree more....

[VenSeattle]

Im not suggesting Europeans are poor - far from it.  But there is simply no great market here for an expensive product without a premium badge.  Even in the mid market the 3 series outsells the Mondeo 2 to 1.

The only attempt in recent history was the Phaeton and that was a disaster.  But at least it shared its structure and plant with the Toureg and Porsche Cayenne so VW probably got their money back.

I just think that if Opel wants a Zeta to top their range they should import from Holden - there's not enough volume to gear up local production and in any case what is the point when Holden has spare capacity.

229806[/snapback]

I thought the Phaeton shared its structure with the Bentley Continental GT & Flying Spur? Touareg & Cayenne are on their own platform... (now sharing with Audi Q7?)

As for Opel moving away from RWD and going down-market, that's one of the reasons why GM is establishing Chevrolet in Europe. Chevrolet will continue to be the everyday brand while Opel can resume its original position as a mainstream/premium brand. Cadillac will still carry the "luxury" banner in Europe.

Remember BMW & Mercedes-Benz do not carry the "exclusive" appeal in Europe like they do in the US. Opel can certainly compete directly on several fronts without stepping on Cadillac's toes.

[ToniCipriani]

I thought the Phaeton shared its structure with the Bentley Continental GT & Flying Spur? Touareg & Cayenne are on their own platform... (now sharing with Audi Q7?) 

As for Opel moving away from RWD and going down-market, that's one of the reasons why GM is establishing Chevrolet in Europe. Chevrolet will continue to be the everyday brand while Opel can resume its original position as a mainstream/premium brand. Cadillac will still carry the "luxury" banner in Europe.

Remember BMW & Mercedes-Benz do not carry the "exclusive" appeal in Europe like they do in the US. Opel can certainly compete directly on several fronts without stepping on Cadillac's toes.

230032[/snapback]

I thought the Phaeton shared with the A8L?

[VenSeattle]

I thought the Phaeton shared with the A8L?

230083[/snapback]

Maybe some if not most, but I don't recall the Phaeton being touted as having an all-aluminum platform. Wikipedia states they all four use the same platform, but for some reason I seem to remember there are (at least some) differences between the A8 & Phaeton.

[SimonDavid]

I think

Phaeton, Q7, Toureg, and Cayenne are on the same platform, all built in the same factory in Leipzig. It's not all aluminium, in fact it's very heavy.

The Bentley Continental GT & Flying Spur also share this structure but their final assembly is in England. However the basic unpainted body structure arrives in the British plant on a truck from Leipzig.

The all aluminium Audi A8 structure is completely different - VW group inter divisional politics

[VenSeattle]

I think

Phaeton, Q7, Toureg, and Cayenne are on the same platform, all built in the same factory in Leipzig.  It's not all aluminium, in fact it's very heavy.

The Bentley Continental GT & Flying Spur also share this structure but their final assembly is in England.  However the basic unpainted body structure arrives in the British plant on a truck from Leipzig.

The all aluminium Audi A8 structure is completely different - VW group inter divisional politics

230346[/snapback]

Phaeton is practically hand-built in Dresden, Germany at a new "transparent" VW plant that was built specifically for this car. The Bentley bodywork for the Continental Flying Spur (and possibly the GT as well) is also assembled alongside the Phaeton in Dresden.

[LosAngeles]

All this weird Opel/Saturn/Pontiac talk aside, Zeta would definitely make a hell of a Vauxhall Carlton.

Carlton VXR = Lotus Carlton replacement?

[thegriffon]

I have suggested that given Vauxhall's penchant for muscle cars, from the Prince Henry through Lotus Carlton to the Monaro, that Vauxhall be aligned with Pontiac and Buick and the mainstream models (Corsa, Astra Vectra etc.) be unrebadged Opels. Bentley, Bristol, Jensen, Invicta, AC, Rover etc. have all built cars with American V8s, so why not Vauxhall.