Do you post here as a GM owner?

[LosAngeles]

Just wondering, since I seem to see a lot of Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and BMW fans here mixed in with us GM guys. I also wonder what draws some of the non-GM types here.

[Cory Wolfe]

This is tough... I'm not much of a GM enthusiast. More or less, Pontiac is the only thing keeping me from hating GM. I do own a Pontiac. A Grand Am GT. So... What shall I vote for? :huh:

[razoredge]

Get off the fence Viper http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

I owe my increasing dedication and satisfaction to all the negitives on this site.

:CG_all:

[Satty]

I'm a GM owner, but an automotive enthusiast. Do I like a lot of GM products, past, present and future? Yeah, but I also like a Ford or two, there are a couple of cars coming from the American end of DCX that I wouldn't be ashamed to be seen in, Honda has some stuff that interests me and that I would seriously consider buying, VW has lost some of its charm, but they're still pretty neat cars.

[Sixty8panther]

Wow... I should have known that about BV. :huh: Why is it that Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac & GMC bother you enough for you to say you "HATE" them?

[bobo]

GM owner and enthusiast. But I'm a realist and know that not everything that GM puts out is great. Actually, I would say that most of their products lag the rest of the market, but they have a few bright spots and have potential in other areas. Even though GM is my favorite car company, I will not hesitate in buying a competing product if it is better.

[CARBIZ]

Enthusiast, owner and seller. I grew up a Chrysler fantatic (still would love to own a late '60s Imperial or 300 convertible someday), but two bad experiences in the '80's (although, looking back, it really was the dealer's fault that both my cars were lemons), turned me off Chrysler. ...although, if I didn't get a free demo and didn't have dog, I would be tempted to lease a 300C (gasp!)

[Robert Hall]

I'm a past GM owner, past and present Ford owner, and current Jeep and BMW owner. I will likely be a future GM owner and BMW owner... maybe a Benz or Porsche also. I'm a car enthusiast in general--I like a lot of different types of cars, and also am a fan of car history and culture, along with building model cars and diecast car collecting... Edited September 22, 2005 by moltar

[Enzora]

Poor wording all around, but the last one is the closest to my own personal views. While I do aspire to own a GM someday (namely Corvette) I don't think I can ever call myself a GM enthusiast, especially when compared to some of you guys. I'm a fan of cars in general, not cars in General.

[Cory Wolfe]

Wow... I should have known that about BV. :huh:

Why is it that Chevrolet, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac & GMC bother you enough for you to say you "HATE" them?

[post="18153"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hold up... I said "Pontiac is the only thing keeping me from hating GM". Does that translate into all that? Maybe it does... but that's not at all what I meant. I do not hate any of those. In fact, Olds, before GM took its life, was my second favorite brand out of any. I loved Olds. Still do.. difference being that it isn't here anymore. Like the Fiero. The rest... I don't hate, but don't necessarily love either. Cadillac's up there. GMC doesn't really interest me being mostly rebadges. Buick has turned into the complete opposite of what I like nowadays. And Chevy... well Chevy has put Pontiac through hell, literally. It's always been Chevy this, Chevy that... Sorry, I've found it to be annoying. You forgot about Hummer, Saab, and Saturn, though. Each results of terrible decisions by GM. But what I said wasn't about the brands. It was about GM itself. How GM manages their brands... and how GM bastardized Pontiac.

[balthazar]

Currently own 2 Pontiacs, 2 Fords and 1 Buick. Would like to add another Ford to the stable, but otherwise am quite happy with my 'iron harem'.

[mustang84]

GM enthusiast and owner...I have owned a 1990 Lumina and currently own a 1994 Lumina. Both of them have lasted a long time and been very dependable vehicles. I love GM's rich history and hope to someday own a classic GM or Ford, along with a new GM or Ford (preferably, the classic would be an Oldsmobile that I would keep absolutely spotless). I have both GM and Ford in my blood.

[Sixty8panther]

BV: Okay, you made some valid points. Chevy alone can not be blamed for screwing up Olds and Pontiac however.... GM as a whole has made some retarded decisions in the past decade. I would argue that the three most disturbing mistakes GM has ever made all happened in the past 10 years: 1996 B-body cancelled 2002 F-body goes on "hiatus" 2004 Oldsmobile killed :angry:

[Nick]

well, while I never owned a GM, I drove one and still do on occasion (much rarer now that I finally have my car). I love GM and my family is a big GM family...especially my dad and his brothers...I'd make a list of all the GM's they own/owned but I'm tired and want to sleep...I <3 GM and I especially <3 BMW

[Dsuupr]

I converted to a GM fan shortly before they decided to kill Oldsmobile. Prior to that I was, and to the most part still am, a fan of Pre-Ford Volvos. The 240s, 740s, 122, 1800s, etc are great cars. Oldsmobile caught my attention in the late 90s with the Intrigue and Silhoutte (great vehicle that wasn't kept competitive).

[staceface]

Current GM owner, and seller. Therefore GM's decisions are VERY important to me, they affect my career. I wouldn't call myself an enthusiast, but looking back on all the cars I've owned in my life, they've all been GM (except for my first car, 69 Dodge Dart GT) maybe by accident rather than design, but all GM's none the less.

[ToniCipriani]

My family has always owned GMs, 1 Olds and 5 Chevys. My next car will be a Chevy or a Pontiac, and I just need people around me to quit asking me to buy import shitboxes.

[bowtie_dude]

I love GM (mostly, and mostly for its newest cars, nothing before the 2005 model year is worth enthusiasm). I own a 2001 Cavalier and looking at my interior which is A) cracking up (not a laughing matter) B) almost falls into my lap on bumpy roads and C) is gapped and hard as a rock, and realizing that GM is STILL BUILDING THIS POS CAR, I can see and understand why they're struggling hard. The previous Malibu was a quality nightmare and so is every other GM car made before 2005. Edited September 22, 2005 by bowtie_dude

[Mach5GTP]

GM enthusiast and owner x2, both Ponchos too, dig the sig. B)

[Cory Wolfe]

BV:

Okay, you made some valid points. Chevy alone can not be blamed for screwing up Olds and Pontiac however.... GM as a whole has made some retarded decisions in the past decade. I would argue that the three most disturbing mistakes GM has ever made all happened in the past 10 years:

1996 B-body cancelled
2002 F-body goes on "hiatus"
2004 Oldsmobile killed :angry:

[post="18342"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Did I say that about Chevy? With Pontiac, almost. Olds, no. What I meant about Pontiac and Chevy was... Well, if it weren't for Chevy engineers, the Fiero may still be here. Because prototype Fieros were blowing Vettes away... and would sell for considerably less. They couldn't have that... I mean, a vehicle from the Performance brand beating one from the Generic brand?!?!? What blasphemy! There are other instances of this type of BS from Chevy as well... Banshee; that word ring a bell? In particular the beautiful mid-60s concept. I don't know the specifics, but I know it was close to being produced. And instances now... I wonder which "F-body" is being brought back while the other isn't? Then there are arguements where if Chevy has a vehicle with performance, Pontiac can't becasue of the Chevy. That's all I hear... "Oh my... it'll steal sales from the Chevy." Where's that compact that Pontiac desperately needs? Kappa's out of the question. So is rebadging. But what's wrong with being unique on Delta? No one can tell me that. Torque steer because of FWD? F**k you. Go drive the GP GXP and shut up. Even more BS from GM...

And Sixty8... not the past 10 year, but the past 20 years. So I revised it for ya

-Creation of Saturn
-Killing of Fiero
-Cancelling of B-Bods
-Going on hiatus of F-bods
-Killing of Oldsmobile

Anyways, sorry to hijack this thread. My original post came off bad according to Sixty8. :P

[lakefire]

i own a dodge dak, but I would be a GM owner if when I was shopping the colorado was at a better price and higher quality.

[Dsuupr]

i own a dodge dak, but I would be a GM owner if when I was shopping the colorado was at a better price and higher quality.

[post="18672"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Even CR rates the Colorado with the highest quality ranking (they just don't like the way it drives and looks because it's a GM product).

[Sixty8panther]

-Creation of Saturn

[post="18550"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good one. Why didn't I think of that one? That was a huge mistake. A COSTLY mistake too. Saturn seems to still be a hemoraghing kidney in the GM "body". Someone needs to tell GM they can get rid of it and stay alive. The other kidney (Chevy) is functioning FINE. While they're at it I think Chevy should have dibs on the Sky... or maybe even Cadillac. B)

BTW: Yes torque steer does suck. So does gettig stuck in the snow but one is preventable and controlable... the other is there every time you mash the throtle no matter what. Edited September 23, 2005 by Sixty8panther

[Flybrian]

Good one. Why didn't I think of that one? That was a huge mistake. A COSTLY mistake too. Saturn seems to still be a hemoraghing kidney in the GM "body". Someone needs to tell GM they can get rid of it and stay alive. While they're at it I think Chevy should have dibs on the Sky... or maybe even Cadillac. B)

[post="18874"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Um...if you haven't noticed...Saturn has begun turning around now.

The time to cut bait was back in the mid-90s: Buick, Olds, GMC, Saturn. Now is not the time.

[razoredge]

Ah.....there is no better time than this second ! If they fail this second theres always tomorow and anytime after that are all good times to kill saturin. There is nothing they have cooking that cant be fixed by Buick.

saturin is nothing more than a tool being used by GM officers to destroy the origional heritage and fabric of the giant. So far its been working pretty good.

saturin needs one of these followed by one of these and then one of these and another and another and another and another

[Sixty8panther]

LMAO @ Razor: It's funny cause it's TRUE!

If Saturn sold 8 million cars this year and 75% of them were Skys I'd still resent them for Killing Oldsmobile.

[RBB]

If you count my wife's Geo Prizm, then I guess I'm a GM owner. I'm an automotive enthusiast. I pull for GM because of my father, who's owned Chevrolets for years (he has an '00 Silverado currently). Myself, I go for four-door sedans that are fun to drive, and I've been disappointed with the choices offered by GM so far. I've always thought Chevy and GM trucks were superior, but I'm not a truck guy. Things are looking up - the new product from GM is better now than any time I can remember, having grown up during the 80's and 90's. I hope to be driving my Mazda for several years, but next time I'm in the market, if there's a fun-to-drive sedan that won't depreciate precipitously, I'm there. -RBB

[NOS2006]

Owner/enthusiast. I have a '98 Camaro. My parents own a '05 GP and a '90 Cavalier (and a Durango).

[Ian]

DCX and Ford enthusiast. DCX owner. I've had 3 Chryslers and 1 Ford in the past, my parents have always had Chrysler products even if dad works for GM :P Not a GM owner and never will. Wouldnt want to be caught dead in a GM....even if I have to drive grandma's 2003 Impala once a week for repairs.....That's what turn me against GM

[ehaase]

I would be a GM owner if it still produced the B body Caprice or Roadmaster.

[Cory Wolfe]

BTW: Yes torque steer does suck. So does gettig stuck in the snow but one is preventable and controlable... the other is there every time you mash the throtle no matter what.

Like I said... Go drive the GP GXP. Even C&D praised it.

[Sixty8panther]

I would be a GM owner if it still produced the B body Caprice or Roadmaster.

[post="19004"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You and about 65% of current '97 and up Crown Vic. / Grand Marq. owners.

GM really blew their brains out on that mistake. The Caproice Classic was by far superior to the C.Vic. & G.MArq. and yet they're still selling the same basic car wiht very minimal changes & upgrades. The 1996 B-bodys could still be making serious money for GM even if they had dome a ground up redesign in '97.

As a 17 year old kid in High School I was pisssed they canceled B-bodys to build more trucks but even I had no idea at the time how stupid that decision was.

WTF would you leave 100% of a market that BIG to Ford. They have NO competition. The only true competitor to the Crown Vic is the G.Marq and vice-versa. :angry:

[Flybrian]

No doubt the B-bodies are still superior to the Panther cars as far as massive barges go. The Fleetwood certainly would've bit the dust a few years ago and the Rodie would need serious reworking to be relevant in today's world. However, the Caprice certainly could've been kept alive as a fleet sedan, much like the Checker taxis were, just update the safety equipment to meet new standards.

The current crop of Panthers, however, are just so blah. No one buys a Vic, no one under 60 buys a new Grand Marquis, and Town Car? A good competitor to the '96 DeVille Concours. Maybe.

I'm sure most former B-body owners simply bought the largest Buick/Cadillac they could after '96. And for most, they probably found the LeSabre, Park Ave, or DeVille to be a more suitable car, albeit a bit pricier than their old rides.

Buick and Cadillac need new large RWD sedans, yes, but something more 'flagship-worthy'.

[capriceman]

Did I say that about Chevy? With Pontiac, almost. Olds, no. What I meant about Pontiac and Chevy was... Well, if it weren't for Chevy engineers, the Fiero may still be here. Because prototype Fieros were blowing Vettes away... and would sell for considerably less. They couldn't have that... I mean, a vehicle from the Performance brand beating one from the Generic brand?!?!? What blasphemy! There are other instances of this type of BS from Chevy as well... Banshee; that word ring a bell? In particular the beautiful mid-60s concept. I don't know the specifics, but I know it was close to being produced. And instances now... I wonder which "F-body" is being brought back while the other isn't? Then there are arguements where if Chevy has a vehicle with performance, Pontiac can't becasue of the Chevy. That's all I hear... "Oh my... it'll steal sales from the Chevy." Where's that compact that Pontiac desperately needs? Kappa's out of the question. So is rebadging. But what's wrong with being unique on Delta? No one can tell me that. Torque steer because of FWD? F**k you. Go drive the GP GXP and shut up. Even more BS from GM...

And Sixty8... not the past 10 year, but the past 20 years. So I revised it for ya

-Creation of Saturn
-Killing of Fiero
-Cancelling of B-Bods
-Going on hiatus of F-bods
-Killing of Oldsmobile

Anyways, sorry to hijack this thread. My original post came off bad according to Sixty8. :P

[post="18550"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

lol ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You guys dont get :lol: ha ha ha

..........

think about what you said and you wont catch it

Banshee when it was concept no market and no available money due to GTO and then firebird Trans am

Fiero was killed by the government for A SAFTY B Handling. I love that car but it as poorly desingend. Besides the camaro SS beat the vette a couple of years.

Chevy is GM main Branch more money more cars Pontiac if it made good numbers it would get more share. also there they same company so if one did better then the other branch that branch would go to the top the next year. the power/weight law of the Corvette was ameneded in the late 60's. besides what if you only thought of it that way?

what ruined GM FORD DCX and the modern Car market including them selves is the imports we all drive tin cans with 4cylinders now.. and yess you do in the 60's did you think that you would ever own a ford escort or a caviler neon civic......no you thought a big car with by then 1000ci engines.

its hard to explain to simple minded people why no one make a good car any more!!!

Its honestly YOU ME THE POEPLE WE want the tin cans. before imports came GM gave us a car and we bought it then imports like honda asked poeple what would you like in a car they said civic GM engineers think big powerful and cool then some where when GM tried the listen to the poeple they got Chevette. its our fault.

i could care less if you reply and call me a A$$HOLE THAT ONLY THINKS ONE WAY im openminded are you ( i ask every one) ?

P.S. did you hear they way Pontiac got rid of tourque steer is have wider tires front narrow in back also how GM band of powere is in all there engines and transmissions TS (torque Steer) really never has been a problem for GM as A COMPANY not One Divsion.

[capriceman]

GM OWNER AND FAN (yeah, i was talking to my dad and he is getting a solstice when the list gets short in that dark green. he walked by mor of them then you could imagine he sat in one before you knew it was going to be produced and he is more than pleased but if gas goes to $5 F*cking dolloras HD (Harley Davidson) here we come) I filled up at 2.39 and i was happy pathetic isnt it!!

[razoredge]

Well yea, they also lost the NY State Police department, I dont know about other states. They always had a few Victorias too but mostly was all Caprice. It would have been little work to rebody the car or cars. they just cant tell me they didnt sell. I can drive down to the city and drive through the "old" suburbs and still find plenty of Road Masters, Caprices and even the occasional Custom Crusier. Hard to imagine the B body today though, it would probably be well over 4200 lb with all the garbage that seems to be needed in a car today. Theres got to be a way to get the weight back down on cars. Lower weight with a large sedan and HARDTOP, combined with the LS2 & 6sp auto they might have a large car that is still drivable with todays GAS FIASCO. Hell they could even make a SportWagon and Vista Cruiser...I know....the ergonomics just arent there over a minivan or "travelall". Im still waiting for my Buick Kappa ! Go dang it!

[Cory Wolfe]

Fiero was killed by the government for A SAFTY B Handling. I love that car but it as poorly desingend. Besides the camaro SS beat the vette a couple of years.

Wow... First off, the Fiero was one of the safest vehicles in 88. The only car to beat it was a Volvo and they are renown for their safety. Secondly, the Fiero could handle like a freaking go-kart. It was one of the best handling cars at GM in 88. So get your facts right. You made two huge mistakes. I can't even take the rest of what you said seriously because of this.... :blink: Edited September 24, 2005 by blackviper8891

[Sixty8panther]

Fly:

Sorry dude, I whole heartedly disagree with you on that.

I know several guys in their 20s and 30s who own Ford Panther cars. In fact a couple years ago I used to say I'd be tempted to buy a Crown Vic. over a FWD Impala... even the new 5.3 liter V8.

Today if I needed a safe big car and wanted brand new I'd go wiht a Crown Vic ALL DAY LONG. If I didn't have a BOF Cadillac and had the money for a downpayment I'd do it in a heartbeat. They are amazing values. Such a bargain for a BAND new Grand Marquis wiht leaher and all the options you're still well under $30K purschase price and tax roled in.

I used to SELL Chevys & Pontiacs for a few years. Our dealer in Haverhill also had a Buick sister store and I know for a fact MOST peoepl who were ready to trade in their B-body or Panther car went right on over to the Ford/Merc/Lincoln dealer after taking a few test drives in Luminas 2000-up Impalas, Park Aves & LeSabres.

And not all these customers were the over-60 crowd. Seriously have you been to New England? I think you're basing your opinion on observation in Florida. I've beebn down there adn can understand where you're coming from but you're not looking at the whole picture.

You said so yourself: the 1996 B-body cars were and are still superior to the Ford/Merc/Lincolns so WHY T.F. woudl they NOT be selling? If a worse product made by a 'cheaper' manufacturer sells pretty well why woudln't the GM BOF cars be selling????

[ehaase]

No one buys a Vic, no one under 60 buys a new Grand Marquis, and Town Car?

You would be surprised.

[Sixty8panther]

Well yea, they also lost the NY State Police department,

[post="19264"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

YES... they also had 100% of the Massachusetts State troopers, about 60% of the local towns' police dept. and most of the Taxi cabs in Boston. I'm just speaking for my own litle part of the world.

Theres got to be a way to get the weight back down on cars. Lower weight with a large sedan and HARDTOP, combined with the LS2 & 6sp auto they might have a large car that is still drivable with todays GAS FIASCO. 

You said the "H" word! I hope GM brigns back hardtops in my lifetime!

Hell they could even make a SportWagon and Vista Cruiser...I know....the ergonomics just arent there over a minivan or "travelall".

Minivans are very UNCOOL, SUVs are loosing their appeal and Wagons are gaining popularity again. Look at the Subarus and Magum.

Im still waiting for my Buick Kappa ! Go dang it!

So am I buddy, so am I! They sure as hell deserve one. RWD Skylark anyone?

[razoredge]

Im haveing a serious brain connection problem here so help me out. What became of the Mercury ______ ? All I can think is Montego and Manaro of all things. What ever that car was just didnt sell did it? I believe Ive only seen one or two in all these years. Are there any likely reasons other than interest in that type of automobile, or was it priced through the roof. I remember hearing somebody here cryng about it not having enough power but thats something to just throw out the window around here. Its usually the first responce to any car. Please tell me about this Mercury M_____

[razoredge]

So am I buddy, so am I! They sure as hell deserve one. RWD Skylark anyone?

Repeat after me.......................Wildcat

[capriceman]

Wow... First off, the Fiero was one of the safest vehicles in 88. The only car to beat it was a Volvo and they are renown for their safety. Secondly, the Fiero could handle like a freaking go-kart. It was one of the best handling cars at GM in 88. So get your facts right. You made two huge mistakes. I can't even take the rest of what you said seriously because of this.... :blink:

[post="19266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know 3 poeple that died in them two my freinds where drivingand the poorly placed cooling lines next to gas lines blew up and and fireballed down I-75

the other a guy i worked with died 2 years back in a acciedent the front end caved in and sent framing in the front through him it was a acciendent at less than 40 mph the final report was that the car was no properly braced for impact by manufactor.

Handling it was said by testing results unexpected understeer oversteer high speed corning resulted in slight roll overs and that due to weight distrubation it was never pridictable insnow or rain.

I didnt mean to affend you and you dont have to take it seriously its my opion swirled with Facts to come out as an ad. (like when you go in the store for beer and come out wiht chips tolet paper and lunchmeat and forgot why you where there in the first place) who like lablatts? my new favorite BEER!

but take it how you like i wont edit it. Edited September 24, 2005 by capriceman

[capriceman]

You and about 65% of current '97 and up Crown Vic. / Grand Marq. owners.

GM really blew their brains out on that mistake. The Caproice Classic was by far superior to the C.Vic. & G.MArq. and yet they're still selling the same basic car wiht very minimal changes & upgrades. The 1996 B-bodys could still be making serious money for GM even if they had dome a ground up redesign in '97.

As a 17 year old kid in High School I was pisssed they canceled B-bodys to build more trucks but even I had no idea at the time how stupid that decision was.

WTF would you leave 100% of a market that BIG to Ford. They have NO competition. The only true competitor to the Crown Vic is the G.Marq and vice-versa.  :angry:

[post="19245"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

tear :( i will miss having a new caprice i think i will just keep buying old caprices untill i die.

the dicision was to that ford and GM where to drop the cars at the same time and stuuf FWD at them. but ford didnt do what they were supposed to do.

CAPRICE ARE YOU THERE PLEASE FIGHT YOUR WAY BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!

[capriceman]

Like I said... Go drive the GP GXP. Even C&D praised it.

[post="19173"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah i just read that that was a great GM issue Solstice GXP and Zo6 its wall hanging material espeacily from C&D!!

[capriceman]

Im haveing a serious brain connection problem here so help me out. What became of the Mercury ______ ? All I can think is Montego and Manaro of all things. What ever that car was just didnt sell did it? I believe Ive only seen one or two in all these years. Are there any likely reasons other than interest in that type of automobile, or was it priced through the roof. I remember hearing somebody here cryng about it not having enough power but thats something to just throw out the window around here. Its usually the first responce to any car.

Please tell me about this Mercury M_____

[post="19272"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

a.....

Mariner

Marauder

Milan

Monterey

mystique

RING A BELL YET

[razoredge]

Yea thanks, Marauder. So what happened with it ?

[Flybrian]

Yea thanks,  Marauder.

So what happened with it ?

[post="19293"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No one bought it, so it went buh-bye.

[capriceman]

No one bought it, so it went buh-bye.

[post="19294"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

basicly and it was odd i sat in one just somthing you couldnt put your finger on.

[NOS2006]

I know 3 poeple that died in them two my freinds where drivingand the poorly placed cooling lines next to gas lines blew up and and fireballed down I-75

the other a guy  i worked with died 2 years back in a acciedent the front end caved in and sent framing in the front through him it was a acciendent at less than 40 mph the final report was that the car was no properly braced for impact by manufactor.

Handling  it was said by testing results unexpected understeer oversteer high speed corning resulted in slight roll overs and that due to weight distrubation it was never pridictable insnow or rain.

[post="19276"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

One of the early Fieros was known for blowing up. But I'm pretty sure that was only ONE year. Bad, yes, but people shouldn't be dumb enough to buy a car that blows up.

Okay, so that's one mishap. I'm sure every car out there today could have an unfortunate mishap too. Shit happens, as the saying goes.

Handling on these things were amazing. Among the best in the world. RWD is what kills vehicles in the snow or rain, not handling. I have a Camaro that handles pretty damn well compared to all my buddies' vehicles. However, when it comes to rain or snow, I drift, slide, and spin like none other...