I commend you NWA Mechanics

[Guest Josh]

Mechanics struck Northwest Airlines early Saturday after refusing big pay cuts and layoffs that would have cut their numbers almost in half. The nation's fourth largest airline pledged to keep flying with replacements.

After months of talks broke off here just before midnight Friday, union spokesman Jim Young said the mechanics would rather see the airline go into bankruptcy than agree to Northwest's terms. The Airline Mechanics Fraternal Association 4,427 of Northwest's 40,000 workers. The strike began at 12:01 a.m. EDT.

Flight attendants and pilots at Northwest Airlines said they would not join the walkout by mechanics.

Julie Hagen Showers, Northwest's vice president for labor relations, told reporters here that the airline will operate a full schedule on Saturday.

Young said the company did not negotiate in good faith because it had a contingency plan to use contract workers as replacements for the strikers.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166282,00.html

NWA tried to bust the Union and it did not work. I'll never fly North West Airlines again. Crooked criminals. Don't believe me? Just look at what staffer had to say about the talks: "Young said the company did not negotiate in good faith because it had a contingency plan to use contract workers as replacements"

What a dumb ass

[Flybrian]

Very sad times for the commercial aviation industry. One almost wishes for reregulation...

[z28luvr01]

NWA, Delta, US Airways, and United are all at or near bankruptcy. Some of it has to do with the cost of jet fuel, which has doubled since last year. But, like Fly alluded to, most of the older carriers have never adjusted to deregulation. PanAm and TWA used to be the two most glamorous airlines in the skies...now one is defunct and one is reborn as a low cost regional flyer of puddle jumpers. And what's worse is that the gov't has no intentions of getting involved, so if Northwest goes under, people looking to fly to places where only NWA flies are screwed. Sad times indeed.

[Guest Josh]

NWA, Delta, US Airways, and United are all at or near bankruptcy. Some of it has to do with the cost of jet fuel, which has doubled since last year.  But, like Fly alluded to, most of the older carriers have never adjusted to deregulation. PanAm and TWA used to be the two most glamorous airlines in the skies...now one is defunct and one is reborn as a low cost regional flyer of puddle jumpers. And what's worse is that the gov't has no intentions of getting involved, so if Northwest goes under, people looking to fly to places where only NWA flies are screwed. Sad times indeed.

[post="1130"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just wait until it hits the automotive industry. If people think times are bad now, wait until the Chinese flood the market, wait until the Asians flood the market, same for the Koreans. General Motors will be the NWA of the car business. It's just a matter of time.

Our government does not care. What can we do about it? Nothing. We can elect officials, but in the end those officials we elect are paid off by these big companies to stop whatever movement is made to end the "insurgency" of our American companies.

[razoredge]

Ah yes, things will be so much better now, with this new world, you'll see, yada yada yada yada, yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup Im sure fuel has hurt them but Im willing to bet the bottom line is that the INSURANCE companys are collecting the largest percentage of the gross reciepts. Thats some industry the insurance industry, its the we got ya industry Wonder how the human race ever survived it to the 20th century without the great assistance we all recieve from the INSURANCE industry. All bow down to the INSURANCE industry for they are truely the new GOD

[razoredge]

Dont worry it will all be better, you will see, we will have cleaner air, cleaner water, no gas to get to work but thats ok because of the better air and the fact that there will be no work worth traveling to, so think of all the money saved on gasoline. then we can cancell our car insurance because we wont need to drive to work so we'll save all that money, after all insurance is over 100 a month and soon gasoline will be over 100 a week just to get to a job that pays 350 a week which we all know is more than we are worth. But wait, what will become of the insurance companys with out all these jobs, ect. that feed their greedy little pockets. Oh wait they will be OK because they will get the government to enforce training classes for proper way to breath air and wipe ass and make all citizens carry oxygen and ass wipeing insurance. After all if not wiped properly we could get rectal infection which cold get costly for Doctor to properly cure and may require hospital stay and if not cured could drastically effect the oxygen supply. :rolleyes: yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yup yuppy yuppy yuppy yuppy yuppy

[Flybrian]

NWA, Delta, US Airways, and United are all at or near bankruptcy. Some of it has to do with the cost of jet fuel, which has doubled since last year.  But, like Fly alluded to, most of the older carriers have never adjusted to deregulation. PanAm and TWA used to be the two most glamorous airlines in the skies...now one is defunct and one is reborn as a low cost regional flyer of puddle jumpers. And what's worse is that the gov't has no intentions of getting involved, so if Northwest goes under, people looking to fly to places where only NWA flies are screwed. Sad times indeed.

[post="1130"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The saddest aspect of it all is that people simply don't care. No one ever looks at the big picture. Air passengers (its a stretch to refer to it as 'travel' much more) get googly-eyed at $39 one-way flights not realizing the real price of such deep discounts. Pilots and F.O.s that get paid little more annually than a manager at a fast food restaurant, inexperienced management that think its a better idea for a jet to reverse itself out of 6-inch slush rather than pay flight support for a pushback, ignorant human answering machines in India (or even prison inmates) trying to book your flight, laminated boarding passes that you return to the airline because they can't afford to print individual ones, unkempt aircraft cabins with garbage left over from the previous flight, and worst of all high time DC-9s and 727s pushing their total airframe hours with each flight.

Granted, much has been improved since those first shoddy years of deregulation, but many side effects still linger. Air travel isn't glamourous anymore. Airlines used to take pride in their fleet of Clippers and Astrojets. They used to one-up each other with better, more luxurious service; now they try to outcheap each other with cutrate fares to off-spoke airports that no one wants to go to. And don't get me started on TSA. Getting onto most planes today is like getting into a big bus rather than a real airliner. That's why I'd much prefer to fly myself. Yes, it can be much more expensive and take longer and be a whole lot bumpier and tiring, but its fun. There's still a little bit of glamour left in that aspect of flying.

There are exceptions, though. Southwest and JetBlue are the two notable ones. But it took a long time to get there and too many lives. Air Florida Flt 90 and ValuJet Flt 592 are I believe direct results of lax regulations.

Call me a socialist if you must, but there are some aspects of American life that are too vital or too risky not to have some modicum of government control, among them the national power grid and air travel.

But that's just my rant. And, yes, I still want to be an airline pilot. :)

[regfootball]

Living here in Minneapolis area I am getting lots of media coverage on this.

Basically, Northwest will have to go under if they cannot cannot cut their costs. The amount of money they have been losing over years now suggests the bleeding cannot continue.

Even if NWA is using the bankruptcy card as a tool or leverage, the threat is very real.

NWA cannot raise fares, they would price themselves out of the market. Why? Many factors, but I am sure too high labor costs IN COMPARISON to others in the market are one of them. I know they won't see pay increases which is a bummer, but if the outside market exposes your current salary as too high, what do you do?

Ultimately, the market in some way will set what you are worth, regardless of whether you try to artificially prop up your own worth. It just sucks when the adjustment has to happen for so many folks at one time. Just pick your day when you want it happen. Now...or in a couple more years when the bubble breaks then (because the company couldn't afford your pay).

Considering NWA got rid of pretzels or snacks or something on flights to save money, I would assume they've looked for a lot of cost savings.

The mechanics have these options

-strike and risk losing their jobs forever. There are going to be MANY folks out there who would jump at the chance to get what the compensation package of the striking workers was. Good luck finding a new job as good. A prolonged strike will likely shut down the airlines.

-settle quickly and give in some more than they wanted, but realize that keeping their jobs and a compensation package that is still good compared to many others is satisfactory to continuing on in life. Such is the way when you sign away your ability to be your own agent and put your livelihood in the hands of others.

Ah, the concept UNION. We can all throw our families futures down the toilet at the same time! tens of thousands of us at a time! If that isn't good for economy and country, I don't know what is! And we can harm thousand's of others futures at the same time too!

What it seems to do well, is handcuff corporations from proactively trimming costs when neccessary, on the fly. It sucks to be laid off (3 time veteran, thank you) but maybe we all need to consider that organizations have checkbooks too, and when dollars coming in are not what we like, then its nice to shed 'payments' when we can't afford them. To trim down and expand up as revenue and work demands, rather than to be handcuffed by expensive and inflexible labor contracts..........

I see your angle here, and its parallels with the auto industry. But I doubt you will find much union sympathy here. All it really shows is a microvision of how bad the US car industry will be forever damaged if the union doesn't recognize that pushing it too far and getting greedy is their own ultimate demise. It just brings everyone else down with it.

And you always hear the whole 'joe EXECUTIVE makes xxxx million too much".

True, but even if exec pay was slashed, its not going to turn a company around or benefit the rank and file that much. And then, all your top execs would quit and believe it or not, cheaper execs would screw the company up pretty badly.

There's always going to be corrupt folks at management levels skimming the crab out of the crab salad. Striking should not be done from the angle of 'us against them/poor vs rich/we need to bring the top men down!'. Its nothing less than a feeble attempt at class warfare and is just a bunch of people pissed off at their perceived status in life. And the rest of America looks down on that angle, and all that happens is you lose your jobs because you got too feisty. You just gotta give some and shut up with all the undignified fightin' words. Its not professional or classy and its devalues your support from the rest of America (I am referring to some of the comments I've been reading from the striking mechanics in this example, not anyone here on this board).

And all companies are poorly managed. You can blame it as 'poor management' but all companies make good decisions and all of them make shitty decisions. Managing GM or NWA is so complex, the company has to excel in SPITE of what can be piss poor management. Humans are not perfect.

www.startribune.com

has a lot of coverage about the NWA strike

Really what I see to this is the catastrophic pendelum effects that unions can impose on an economy. No group of folks should be allowed to have that great of an influence on the health of a large company, a state's economy, or the ability of a much needed airliner to do work safely and with service to its CUSTOMERS.

I predict big damage, with smaller, leaner carriers benefitting. Edited August 21, 2005 by regfootball

[Guest Josh]

I've seen many holes in your post REG. I'll attempt to disect them right now, but first, please take a look at this discussion that is happening on a major news source out of Detroit, Local 4.

http://forums.ibsys.com/viewmessages.cfm?s...=58&Topic=12508

Some very telling stories there, and as of the piece of this writing there's only one page with about 7 entries. Not good when all are negative!

[quote]The mechanics have these options

-strike and risk losing their jobs forever. There are going to be MANY folks out there who would jump at the chance to get what the compensation package of the striking workers was. Good luck finding a new job as good. A prolonged strike will likely shut down the airlines.[/quote]

The reason there would be "MANY folks out there" is because under this administration we have continually LOST jobs year over year. Sure. I'll kindly take a NorthWest mechanics position making $15 an hour doing what he does when I'm actually geared more towards selling things making $11.50+ commission per year. I'll gladly do body repair work on your car for a far lighter price than certified people, but keep in mind. I'm a better salesperson, probably better than anyone you'd probably meet.

[quote]-settle quickly and give in some more than they wanted, but realize that keeping their jobs and a compensation package that is still good compared to many others is satisfactory to continuing on in life. Such is the way when you sign away your ability to be your own agent and put your livelihood in the hands of others.[/quote]

You're so out of touch on this I do not fee you have been keeping up with the events of this, but rather, instead going with the "Anti-Union" of so many Americans.

"Settle quickly and give in more than they wanted, but realize that keeping their jobs" I'll stop right there. Because A) short term the company wants to CUT THE MEMBERSHIP IN HALF. Also B) Long term (think 10 years) the measures that go in place today...there will be NO UNION in 10 years! The membership has continually dwindled year after year after year of CUTS. When do you stop the bleeding if you say month after month, year after year, "Hunnie, we really need to cut the cable, we really need to cut the snacks." The Union has given the company everything they have wanted over the past years it's sickening.

[quote]Ah, the concept UNION. We can all throw our families futures down the toilet at the same time! tens of thousands of us at a time! If that isn't good for economy and country, I don't know what is! And we can harm thousand's of others futures at the same time too![/quote]

You're old, you dont get it. I'm young (21) and I realize that this Administration is doing more for themselves than the young people of America. What in the hell is CAFTA and WHY did it get approved? Enough said. But, it's the Unions fault that oil is so high, yet our President has his white "colored" nose in oil. Want to talk "tens of thousands of us at a time" look no further than a dead end war. One he had to "finish" (which still isn't done yet) for his daddy.

[quote]What it seems to do well, is handcuff corporations from proactively trimming costs when neccessary, on the fly.[/quote]

Show me CEO/CFO cuts over the past 10 years and I'll kindly provide cuts the Union has supplied year over year.

[quote]I see your angle here, and its parallels with the auto industry. But I doubt you will find much union sympathy here. All it really shows is a microvision of how bad the US car industry will be forever damaged if the union doesn't recognize that pushing it too far and getting greedy is their own ultimate demise.[/quote]

Because the Union makes a valid attempt to keep jobs here in the United States while they are being shipped over seas by the hour? Damn the Union for trying to ensure our young peoples lives. Damn them and their "high cost of labor" while our CEO's that say "Hey, lets shut this down, move production to Mexico (largest kidnapping/murder state there is) and lets do this ASAP as to make our 3Q earnings so we get that HUGE $5 Million bonus."

I'll end this with two things. Do people realize how much Iraqi's pay for a gallon of gas "over there?" Try $.05. Yes, that's right. I didnt not place the decimal in the wrong spot. It's 5 CENTS a gallon for gas in Iraq.

Also "Reg" I'll leave you with a statement I'd love to see debated with valid points, because I have plenty valid points to go around pointing out how they did do this:

[quote]Young said the company did not negotiate in good faith because it had a contingency plan to use contract workers as replacements for the strikers.[/quote]

[regfootball]

I've seen many holes in your post REG. I'll attempt to disect them right now, but first, please take a look at this discussion that is happening on a major news source out of Detroit, Local 4.

http://forums.ibsys.com/viewmessages.cfm?s...=58&Topic=12508

Some very telling stories there, and as of the piece of this writing there's only one page with about 7 entries. Not good when all are negative!
The reason there would be "MANY folks out there" is because under this administration we have continually LOST jobs year over year. Sure. I'll kindly take a NorthWest mechanics position making $15 an hour doing what he does when I'm actually geared more towards selling things making $11.50+ commission per year. I'll gladly do body repair work on your car for a far lighter price than certified people, but keep in mind. I'm a better salesperson, probably better than anyone you'd probably meet.
You're so out of touch on this I do not fee you have been keeping up with the events of this, but rather, instead going with the "Anti-Union" of so many Americans.

"Settle quickly and give in more than they wanted, but realize that keeping their jobs" I'll stop right there. Because A) short term the company wants to CUT THE MEMBERSHIP IN HALF. Also B) Long term (think 10 years) the measures that go in place today...there will be NO  UNION in 10 years! The membership has continually dwindled year after year after year of CUTS. When do you stop the bleeding if you say month after month, year after year, "Hunnie, we really need to cut the cable, we really need to cut the snacks." The Union has given the company everything they have wanted over the past years it's sickening.
You're old, you dont get it. I'm young (21) and I realize that this Administration is doing more for themselves than the young people of America. What in the hell is CAFTA and WHY did it get approved? Enough said. But, it's the Unions fault that oil is so high, yet our President has his white "colored" nose in oil.  Want to talk "tens of thousands of us at a time" look no further than a dead end war. One he had to "finish" (which still isn't done yet) for his daddy.
Show me CEO/CFO cuts over the past 10 years and I'll kindly provide cuts the Union has supplied year over year.
Because the Union makes a valid attempt to keep jobs here in the United States while they are being shipped over seas by the hour? Damn the Union for trying to ensure our young peoples lives. Damn them and their "high cost of labor" while our CEO's that say "Hey, lets shut this down, move production to Mexico (largest kidnapping/murder state there is) and lets do this ASAP as to make our 3Q earnings so we get that HUGE $5 Million bonus."

I'll end this with two things. Do people realize how much Iraqi's pay for a gallon of gas "over there?" Try $.05. Yes, that's right. I didnt not place the decimal in the wrong spot. It's 5 CENTS a gallon for gas in Iraq.

Also "Reg" I'll leave you with a statement I'd love to see debated with valid points, because I have plenty valid points to go around pointing out how they did do this:

[post="1457"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

tell me how you really feel. :rolleyes:

one thing i will find that i liked about your post is the reference to CEO pay not being cut. I honestly do not know what the solution to this problem is, as its not isolated to GM. But what are the forces that can change this? I do not think that the unions will ever be the ones to be successful in reforming executive compensation. One thing is for sure. A labor strike will not contribute any time soon towards a global movement to reducing executive pay.

And hey, Bush/Cheney are oil folks. Doesn't surprise me that gas is going through the roof. I'm surprised it took this long, maybe they were just waiting for re-election first. That said, Kerry was a horrific alternative and I can't believe that the Dems in the last two elections cannot come up with anything better than the Gore/Kerry combo platter. Its like being asked, do you prefer poison, or being shot? And it only gets worse, Queen Hillary is laying the groundwork for embattled fems and semi-thoughtful 'wanna be aware' soccer moms to put her in power in 08. Like I would vote for her? If you really want a national downfall, an undoing of the country, put Hill in office.

lastly, it doesn't seem that mass US culture would really give a hoot if the union got cut in half. That's really the key thing to understand here; public sentiment. Union labor would gain a lot more public support if they were convinced into thinking that unions contributed in a meaningful way to corporate and national success. But too often what I've come across from people I know is a fervent anti-union sentiment. Whether its right or wrong isn't the issue, but many people feel that 'why are they asking for more when they already have it so much better than me'?

If everyone in our country unionized and got great benefits, then many companies who provide the jobs would simply go under and they also would fail in the global market. No country can survive as an island in the world unless they participate in the global economy. If you don't participate in the world, you lose political and military influence. Then, someone takes you over and you can't defend yourself.

I strongly dislike this new trend in outsourcing US jobs and I do believe we need a strong manufacturing base and need to pay those jobs well. But unions pining for a lot more than what the average American makes is not the effective solution. Unions do not have what it takes to reform the pay deficiencies of America's working classes or executives. It will take some sort of third party breakthrough in our economic structure to ever be able to make social class pay scale corrections. Some social force aside from unions will maybe someday reform our pay structures in America. Edited August 21, 2005 by regfootball

[regfootball]

only posting this one for the what its worth department.

startribune

[razoredge]

Ya know all that crap sound good and make sense until you drive down the road and see all the $350,000-750,000 houses being built by the bucket load. $40,000+ cars and "blazers" on every corner. The price of steel has tripled, lumber for building homes doubled, school and property taxes doubled, auto insurance doubled, gasoline approaching double and the working class American is working for the same wages they were 15 years ago to maybe a 10% increase, which has been sucked up by the INSURANCE INDUSTRY.

The only reason people think Union employees are making double "the average American's wages" is because you read it somewhere or because its convienant at the time. At other times its convienant to say that non Union jobs pay as much, it all depends on the spin necessary at the time to spew anti union or worse yet the quality of life a dirty hands deserves.

If everyone in our country unionized and got great benefits, then many companies who provide the jobs would simply go under and they also would fail in the global market. No country can survive as an island in the world unless they participate in the global economy. If you don't participate in the world, you lose political and military influence. Then, someone takes you over and you can't defend yourself.

What in the hell hole did you pull that one out of ? Back when this country was well organized there was not a country or nation in the world that could have even made a stand. Now today we are being economically taken over by simple poor 3rd world overpopulated countries because the companys and corporations that were made rich and strong and powerful during the well organized years have spent billions in profits "developing" these third world countries to further increase profits. Its all been off our backs - THATS RIGHT - OUR BACKS. GET A FRIGGIN CLUE! DO YOU THINK GOD LOANED THESE "POOR" COMPANIES THE BILLIONS SPENT TO DEVELOPE OTHER COUNTRIES ? NO THEY WERE PROFITS MADE OFF HARD WORKING AMERICANS. NOW TODAY THE MONEY OUR FATHERS MADE FOR THE COMPANIES THEY WORKED FOR IS BEING USED TO REMOVE ACCESS TO DECENT JOBS FROM THEIR SONS.

Until the entire productive working population of America stands together and doesnt allow the spinning fog to cloud their brains we will continue to see a widening separation between the upper and lower class until in the end our common children are forced to live in trailer parks or urban downtown with the crack heads.

Fight for something better for our children, dont cower into the corner because your afraid the uppities will look down their nose at you because you pointed out the truth. Whats gained by that beside serious compromise to the country our children will inherit when we allow "them" to finish this "new economy" This is not a Union issue this is a labor and income issue, this is about being able to live in this rapidly inflated world that the cant see it from my house bunch have no problems living in. Its about fair share. Every cog in the gear box is important or the shaft stops turning.

[regfootball]

union negotiations and people's well being/jobs is the not the proper way to wage a class warfare. Mainly because its not effective. They are gonna scheme to continue to get their huge chunk of pie, regardless if y'all 'revolt' to get an extra 50 cents an hour. In other words, regardless of how a petty little collective bargaining negotiations plays out in one instance such as this, its not going to make any dent in how wily exec types sway the forces to get their huge cut. They think on another level, and are driven by greed and shiftiness. They are expert at staying on top, and will use every resource they can to stay there. They are so internally driven to get what they want, they will not let anything stop them to get their cut. Not all of them, just enough of them. Do y'all remember the dot-com crash? The folks with the old money thought it was fine and cute to let all the day traders and online investors and 'tech stocks' go rabid and let the wanna be's make all sorts of money. Then, it got to a certain point and the old money folks said, 'ok, that's enough' and they threw the gauntlet down on the stock market. SO MANY people lost their asses when they thought they made a fortune. Another example of the MAN finding ways to stop you before it gets too far. Then they sip on their liquor, have a cigar and chuckle. Its so misguided to lose focus on the core issues and turn it into a class war. Its unproductive, and lacks quiet pride. Approaching it from that bent isn't going to get you anywhere. I don't recall in history ever, when winning concessions for the union has seriously 'taken down the MAN' in a hard core way. Its not right as humans to use a collective group of people's jobs as pawns in some sort of 'righteous battle' because of some pent up anger and such. It is fine to do it for the good of the workers. But to turn it into a personal battle and class warfare, is simply counter productive because the workers bees lose all the time. I would say don't let emotion and 'wanting to down the MAN' cloud your ability to solve the real issues here. Edited August 21, 2005 by regfootball

[Guest Josh]

I don't understand how people think UAW workers are overpaid. My father pulled in $45,000 last year. Hardly what I'd call a gravy job or "substantial pay" in todays day and age. By comparison, I'm trending to make as much as he is this year and I'm a salesperson for Sprint. Go figure. 30 years with the UAW for him, 1 year selling phones for Sprint. Pretty sad if you ask me.

[regfootball]

I don't understand how people think UAW workers are overpaid. My father pulled in $45,000 last year. Hardly what I'd call a gravy job or "substantial pay" in todays day and age.

By comparison, I'm trailing to make as much as he is this year and I'm a salesperson for Sprint. Go figure. 30 years with the UAW for him, 1 year selling phones for Sprint.

Pretty sad if you ask me.

[post="1585"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

well, i do agree with you there, he ought to have more coming to him, but i would ask where/plant does he work. 30 years i'd guess he'd be in line for more. Was that 30 CONTINUOUS years? I would also ask for details of his health plan/copayments etc. Edited August 21, 2005 by regfootball

[Guest Josh]

He was rarely laid off and had some O.T. last year. I just sit back and laugh when people say UAW members have it good and are paid more than they should be for the jobs they do. So incorrect. He builds the Northstar V8 in Livonia, MI. Has been with GM 30 continous years. When somebody hires in they start off at $15 an hour (give or take). It takes five full years to reach full earnings. He's capped out.

[regfootball]

He was rarely laid off and had some O.T. last year. I just sit back and laugh when people say UAW members have it good and are paid more than they should be for the jobs they do. So incorrect.

He builds the Northstar V8 in Livonia, MI. Has been with GM 30 continous years. When somebody hires in they start off at $15 an hour (give or take). It takes five full years to reach full earnings.

He's capped out.

[post="1610"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

damn. then who's making the 60-70k?

[razoredge]

damn.  then who's making the 60-70k?

[post="1612"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Im willing to bet its all anti union hype. If you throw in the benefits package you could add another 10-15 Im quessing. Some of which is retirement funds, then you got to add in the health insurance plus workers comp, disability and other things we hardly ever think about.

One would need 25 per hour for 40 hour weeks at 52 weeks to gross 52,000. Around here most union construction jobs are around 20-25 per hour. With benefits besides. The non union guys still get the "prevailing wage" on municipality jobs so they get the lump sum which is around 34+ for heavy highway less for other work. Then shop rates are lower than field rates. Shop or plant rates around here are from 14 - 17 if you are lucky.

Thats how some blue collar workers can afford the 2-4 hundred per month school taxes we have today. Theres lots of overtime so theres little family life and then theres the layoffs which lower the annual take.

Still its half of what white collar workers take so maybe Union rates are inline with society and the non union camps are the ones still living at 1980 pay scales.

The question is not why do Union workers make so much but rather what makes us worth so little. I once thought the other way myself then I had a few decades to get a better look at the world. Im highly in favor of the return of Bastille Day

[regfootball]

well, my stinkin 5 year college degree is making me low-mid 50s a year, and still needing to pay part of my own benes. Since my wife works, we pay extra into her plan. Neither of us could get all of our own medical taken care of. I think we choke up like 3-400 a month (guess) to have a family plan coverage that has low deductibles but also has copays. I picked the wrong profession though, so I have no one to bitch at but myself. In fact, cnn had an article last week for the 5 'big jobs' that don't pay shit or something like that....I'm one of them. I make out good. But I am typically about 10-20 grand now behind my college contemporaries in other majors. Currently one buddy is going for his MBA and likely will double me in pay someday soon. An ex HS classmate who got a doctorate and teaches at a U, married another like person and now their two doctorates and teaching jobs have them riding the gravy train. If my wife quit her job, we'd have to sell our house which is reasonably close to the core area where all the jobs are around here (if 25 miles or 30 miles is close) and move to the sticks and I'd be driving 60 miles one way to work, but with gas that won't work either. We couldn't make a go renting a townhouse around here on my pay alone, because the housing market is so out of whack. Anyways, that might explain why I drive an Aztek and an over and done Diamante (certainly never are these FIRST choices) and my old college buddies are driving Passats, Pilots, Odysseys, Volvos..... Regardless of any of that, it still is the case that with NWA, they may not be able to go on unless there is adjustments made to the mechanics' compansation in a larger than desired way. The monster is too big and now the trouble begins. Edited August 22, 2005 by regfootball

[razoredge]

Well I must be doing better than your buddies because I drive a Oldsmobile LSS and it only costs me 262 a month ;-), no actually I drive a 90 Regency with 322,000 miles that costs me 00.00 per month ;-) 50's aint bad, we dont have a combined of 50 and Im totally uninsured and dont give a damn. Of my working career I have had health benefits for a total of 1.5 years thanks to those being Union jobs. I have a 29 year degree that finds it painfull to watch people toil with the simplest of tasks. Id be happy with a job in the 30's with benefits that was stimulating, had room to expand and did not require every wakeing minute of my life. These darn places seem to think everybodys looking for a new Zip code. These were not issues when America was strong, organized and healthy. Before the huge monopolies were consolidated, before deregulation and "global economy" welcome to the third world my little puppets