GM Minivan Plans Panned

[CARBIZ]

Everyone is so fixated on denigrating "soccer moms," that we are ignoring another big segment of minivan purchaser: contractors and delivery people. Getting a 4X8 sheet of plywood with the tailgate closed was a big factor in the design of the original minivans. I know people in the painting/plumbing business, etc. who need a garagable vehicle that gets decent gas mileage that can be easily driven in the city AND needs to haul the brats on weekends.

Will the new "cross-overs" do that? No, they won't.

[pow]

empowah...then you didn't have the middle row adjusted properly.  It slides back and forth for increased/decreased leg room.

Look I'll be perfectly upfront here: I don't really care for minivans and do not follow the latest developments in the segment. My experiences with minivans have been growing up, friends had Dustbusters, Aerostars, and of course every gen of the Chryslers. I've been in Windstars a couple times, the occasional rental Silhouette, and I was carpooled in the last-gen Odyssey (first competitive Odyssey...circa 2000). Compared to every minivan I've been in, I see no shortcomings with the Lambdas. If GM wants to build an additional set of "true" minivans, then fine, good for them. But I really don't think GM would be at a competitive disadvantage if they just made a sliding door an option with what they currently have.

223055[/snapback]

No, I adjusted it properly; it just didn't have enough room.

Whether or not GM should make a proper minivan, I don't know. But there is a market for something cheaper and more practical than an Outlook or Acadia. I still see tons of lower-end minivans like Grand Caravans and Sienna LEs.

[Croc]

I'll agree that a true Chevrolet minivan would prolly be a good idea...I think GM is stupid if they abandon the segment, but simultaneously I don't think they'd be at a disadvantage either.

[rkmdogs]

Look I'll be perfectly upfront here: I don't really care for minivans and do not follow the latest developments in the segment.  My experiences with minivans have been growing up

223055[/snapback]

Croc, thank you for being honest about your bias against minivans.

Your comments then have to be taken with many grains of salt, since your negative position is now known.

Buick used to have an advertising slogan, " Ask the man who owns one."

That applies here, 200%. All this grousing over what will or will not work to

change an exhisting platform into something else is mute.

If you haven't lived and used one on more than a casual basis, you have no ground for comment about them. PERIOD!

Anything else makes about as much sense as a Catholic priest commenting about

the results of having sex!!!!

The comment about using the van for something else, other than as a baby-hauler, such as a trade work vehicle is 120% right on the mark!!

How many plumbers or electricans do you see driving SUVs?---- as a work vehicle.

GM has the smarts to make all the other manufacturers go back to the drawing boards, if they will just let their car people do their job!!!

They are starting to look like the Titanic with the excuses and denials being esposed by the bean-counters on this site!!!!

Oh yeah, and one other thought--------

how you gonna pay for that Odyssey or Sienna, when you get laid off 'cause the

US manufacture of vehicles has declined so far that the depression of '29 is

gonna look like a walk in the park.

Go give NAFTA a big hug............. but not for ME!!!!!!

Edited December 2, 2006 by rkmdogs

[Croc]

Croc, thank you for being honest about your bias against minivans.

Your comments then have to be taken with many grains of salt, since your negative position is now known.

223195[/snapback]

I'm not biased against them. Not at all. I just cannot see myself ever owning one, but for that matter I cannot see myself owning too many sedans, either. I certainly do not hate sedans and campaign negatively against them, but they are not my first choice. I prefer crossover SUVs.

Honestly, I would say I've had more than a casual experience with minivans...I was carpooled in them every day for years. Road trips and vacations? Rented a Silhouette.

I really don't think I'm unqualified to talk about them, and I'm certainly not biased against them.

The point about professionals is true, but don't they usually utilize a panel van option? I don't think I've ever seen a workman use the same minivan for both work and family hauling, especially not a plumber. What do they do, unload EVERYTHING so they can put in the second row? I have a hard time seeing the practicality of that.

[rkmdogs]

The minivan is going to go the way of the El Camino or the woody or the whatever.  They wont be minivans much longer.  ..They will be something else that more people want.  ITs not all BOF and RWD or blah blah blah.....

223015[/snapback]

Krinle, go back and eat some more Pablum!!! It will help you disposition.

If minivans are going away...... like El Caminos and woodies,

then why is the Mustang doing so well, and GM is bringing back a retro Camaro,

and D-C the Challenger?

Outlived their usefulness??? Or is somebody realizing that change is not always better!

You sound like a kid with ADD, who needs a new toy, 'cause the old one has

been there more than 30 seconds.

I have news for you, full-size vans were not designed to be make-out pads

for teen-agers, although that happened, and mini-vans were not designed to

be just baby-haulers for soccer moms, although that seems to be where your

myoptic focus is looking!

There is a need that has been filled. GM has chosen, if the info we have been given is correct, to abandon that need, or to try and suggest another direction

to fulfill that need.

We are just saying that, HEY GM!....... you are looking down the wrong path!!

[haypops]

Buick used to have an advertising slogan, " Ask the man who owns one."

That would be Packard.

That applies here, 200%. All this grousing over what will or will not work to

change an exhisting platform into something else is mute.

That would be moot

Anything else makes about as much sense as a Catholic priest commenting about

the results of having sex!!!!

That arguement would be theologicaly innacuarate and culturally insensative.

[evok]

That would be Packard.

That would be moot

That arguement would be theologicaly innacuarate and culturally insensative.

223249[/snapback]

LOL

[evok]

Krinle, go back and eat some more Pablum!!! It will help you disposition.

Metamucil anyone?

[Drew Dowdell]

That would be Packard.

That would be moot

That arguement would be theologicaly innacuarate and culturally insensative.

223249[/snapback]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[rkmdogs]

That would be Packard.

That would be moot

That arguement would be theologicaly innacuarate and culturally insensative.

223249[/snapback]

If you want to play spellcheck, its inaccurate..... and insensitive.

And the negative comments expressed here are also inaccurate and

dumb!

mute:..... doesn't say anything, is silent!!!!!

I guess no one here has ever taken logic 101 or listened to a real debate.

Edited December 3, 2006 by rkmdogs

[rkmdogs]

Logic is a worthless tool if your initial premise is flawed!

223276[/snapback]

[Mr.Krinkle]

Krinle, go back and eat some more Pablum!!! It will help you disposition.

If minivans are going away...... like El Caminos and woodies,

then why is the Mustang doing so well, and GM is bringing back a retro Camaro,

and D-C the Challenger?

Outlived their usefulness??? Or is somebody realizing that change is not always better!

You sound like a kid with ADD, who needs a new toy, 'cause the old one has

been there more than 30 seconds.

I have news for you, full-size vans were not designed to be make-out pads

for teen-agers, although that happened, and mini-vans were not designed to

be just baby-haulers for soccer moms, although that seems to be where your

myoptic focus is looking!

There is a need that has been filled. GM has chosen, if the info we have been given is correct, to abandon that need, or to try and suggest another direction

to fulfill that need.

We are just saying that, HEY GM!....... you are looking down the wrong path!!

223207[/snapback]

Glad im not within shooting distance...

First off and most importantly--GM has never said officially they were abondoning the minivans--just these.

unlike so many other scrapped programs that you never hear about this one was made public. Like said earlier this happens all the time.

Secondly, and this has nothing to do with the aforementioned decision: There

is a market shift away from these things. I never stated an opinion about the camino or woody...or whatever. Just a fact jack.

Just from a business pov--Say theres 100 people interested in buying a car. Of those 100, 30 could use a minivan..Now from that 30, 20 people would be interested in something other than a minivan but along those lines. That then leaves five people wanting a minivan. What about the other five you might be asking--well, theres just no accounting for everyone

I dont understand what the camaro or mustang have to do with anything.

And I think woodys are dumb...just for the record. Interesting perhaps...but ehh dont get it.

Please do not try to play Kreskin with me. As REG cleverly pointed out I happen to be a curmudgeon when it comes to certain technologies.

So grab a glass of the Early Time or Old Grandad or the Vikes and let it sink in, all indications point to a change or a trend with regards to how the minivan is viewed by the majority of car buyers. Just the way it is.

mute:..... doesn't say anything, is silent!!!!!

Close but no cigar.. Mute is the button on your victrola when the volume is too loud.

and haypops, be careful you may be on what i suspect is a very long list. Nevermind the fact hes still grappling the fact they allowed California into the Union.

That's two strikes for you.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[occupant]

OK, so my choices for an 8 or 9 passenger vehicle for me, my wife, and our six children and occasional visit from a mother-in-law are dwindling fast. It's hard enough to find an 8-passenger minivan as a used vehicle that isn't a Sienna. The Astros and Safaris in this area are being swallowed up by cab drivers faster than you can say "wholesale market value". And I have yet to see one of the 8-passenger Ventures that were allegedly available from '01 to '04 for sale.

I'm left with Expedition XLS/XLT, Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Yukon XL, Sienna CE/LE, and of those, only the GM ones offer 9-passeger seating optional.

Abandoning those options leaves me with full-size 12/15 passenger church youth group type vans, used gas engined school buses, and restored clamshell wagons. Now what?

Maybe I'll get lucky and the two older girls will go to college before my brain explodes.

[pow]

OK, so my choices for an 8 or 9 passenger vehicle for me, my wife, and our six children and occasional visit from a mother-in-law are dwindling fast.  It's hard enough to find an 8-passenger minivan as a used vehicle that isn't a Sienna.  The Astros and Safaris in this area are being swallowed up by cab drivers faster than you can say "wholesale market value".  And I have yet to see one of the 8-passenger Ventures that were allegedly available from '01 to '04 for sale.

I'm left with Expedition XLS/XLT, Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Yukon XL, Sienna CE/LE, and of those, only the GM ones offer 9-passeger seating optional.

Abandoning those options leaves me with full-size 12/15 passenger church youth group type vans, used gas engined school buses, and restored clamshell wagons.  Now what?

Maybe I'll get lucky and the two older girls will go to college before my brain explodes.

223327[/snapback]

The '05+ Odyssey offers 8-passenger seating, too. And the Sprinter is supposed to be surprisingly driveable.

Edit: Also the GM Lambdas, the Pilot, and most other full-size SUVs (Armada, Sequoia, etc).

Edited December 3, 2006 by empowah

[rkmdogs]

Glad im not within shooting distance...

First off and most importantly--GM has never said officially they were abondoning the minivans--just these.

unlike so many other scrapped programs that you never hear about  this one was made public.  Like said earlier this happens all the time. 

Secondly, and this has nothing to do with the aforementioned decision:  There

is a market shift away from these things.  I never stated an opinion about the camino or woody...or whatever.  Just a fact jack.

Just from a business pov--Say theres 100 people interested in buying a car.  Of those 100, 30 could use a minivan..Now from that 30, 20 people would be interested in something other than a minivan but along those lines.  That then leaves five people wanting a minivan.  What about the other five you might be asking--well, theres just no accounting for everyone

I dont understand what the camaro or mustang have to do with anything.

And I think woodys are dumb...just for the record.  Interesting perhaps...but ehh dont get it.

Please do not try to play Kreskin with me.  As REG cleverly pointed out I happen to be a curmudgeon when it comes to certain technologies.

So grab a glass of the Early Time or Old Grandad or the Vikes and let it sink in,  all indications point to a change or a trend with regards to how the minivan is viewed by the majority of car buyers.  Just the way it is.

Close but no cigar.. Mute is the button on your victrola when the volume is too loud.

and haypops,  be careful you may be on what i suspect is a very long list.  Nevermind the fact hes still grappling the fact they allowed California into the Union.

That's two strikes for you. 

223326[/snapback]

Are you threatening to shoot me?

Pal you are barking up a very wrong tree with that statement!

Two strikes for me????

When are you going to say something that makes sense?

[Mr.Krinkle]

When are you going to say something that makes sense?

223404[/snapback]

GM has never said officially they were abondoning the minivans--just these.unlike so many other scrapped programs that you never hear about this one was made public. Like said earlier this happens all the time.

and ps. I dont own a firearm.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Mr.Krinkle]

Pal you are barking up a very wrong tree with that statement!

Two strikes for me????

When are you going to say something that makes sense?

223404[/snapback]

You sound upset over this. I am glad I am not near you for fear of being shot at.

English is a very complex language to master fully. Might I suggest a course in comprehension before entering into logic and debate. The 2 strikes comment is addressed to Haypops--not you. Its the fundamentals that matter most.

You know, walk before you can run type of thing.

Maybe a nap might be in order?

I think you are funny, in your own kooky kind of way.

[rkmdogs]

You sound upset over this.  I am glad I am not near you for fear of being shot at.

English is a very complex language to master fully.  Might I suggest a course in comprehension before entering into logic and debate.  The 2 strikes comment is addressed to Haypops--not you.  Its the fundamentals that matter most.

You know,  walk before you can run type of thing. 

Maybe a nap might be in order? 

I think you are funny, in your own kooky kind of way. 

223408[/snapback]

Yeah, very funny..... oh yeah, the next knock on your door just might

be from the cops........ they don't think your threat was very funny either!

And that is fundamentally where it is at!!!!

[Mr.Krinkle]

Yeah, very funny..... oh yeah, the next knock on your door just might

be from the cops........ they don't think your threat was very funny either!

And that is fundamentally where it is at!!!!

223410[/snapback]

I dont think you are copus mentis.

quick lesson for you:

What I said " Im glad im not in shooting distance" Meaning: from you, the angry old man.

This would be a threat-- And not at all what I said

Im glad you arent in shooting distance. Not what I said. Implied; from me.

It was no threat so keep your britches on.

See the difference

Edited December 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[rkmdogs]

GM has never said officially they were abondoning the minivans--just these.unlike so many other scrapped programs that you never hear about this one was made public. Like said earlier this happens all the time.

223406[/snapback]

Wednesday, November 22, 2006

Chevrolet

The Chevrolet Uplander was part of GM's 15% slice of the minivan segment.

GM kills plan for minivans

Following Ford's lead, struggling automaker will focus on crossovers.

Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News

General Motors Corp. may be bowing out of the minivan business.

Faced with a steep drop in demand for the family vehicles, GM confirmed Tuesday that it has scrapped plans to build new minivan models that would have debuted as early as 2009 under Chevrolet, Saturn and other nameplates.

While GM declined to comment on future vehicle plans, company insiders told The Detroit News that the company has no immediate plans to build minivans after it closes its last minivan-producing plant. The Doraville, Ga., plant builds the slow-selling Chevrolet Uplander and Buick Terraza minivans. It recently stopped producing the Saturn Relay.

It would mark the first time since 1985 that GM won't churn out the vehicles popularized in the 1980s by a generation of young baby boomer families.

Instead, the automaker, which has always been a small player in the minivan market compared to Honda Motor Co. and the Chrysler Group, will focus on crossover vehicles that blend the characteristics of cars and sport utility vehicles. GM is preparing to launch a group of large crossovers that include the GMC Acadia, the Saturn Outlook and the Buick Enclave.

"We do believe it is a declining segment," GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz told The News on Tuesday. "Our new crossovers, Acadia, Outlook and Enclave with their three rows of seats and economical V-6 engines, can meet the same customer needs, minus the 'Soccer Mom' stigma.."

The Enclave hits showrooms next summer with the Acadia and Outlook on sale early next year; all three will be built in GM's new Delta Township plant near Lansing. A potential Chevrolet crossover may follow.

Lutz cautioned that GM has made no official move to pull out of the minivan market.

Ford Motor Co. did make such a decision earlier this year, abandoning minivans such as the Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey. The Monterey is out of production and Freestar production is expected to end early next year. Ford is planning to build a new-generation family hauler based on the Ford Fairlane concept.

Minivan sales down 50%

Word of GM's change came Tuesday when United Auto Workers leaders at the plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., learned that the factory is no longer in line to build minivans next year. GM likely will find new vehicles for that plant, which has been building Saturn cars and trucks since that brand's 1991 debut, company officials said.

GM may decide down the road to build a new minivan line, though there are no immediate plans to do so.

The minivans would have been built on the same chassis design as the Enclave, Acadia and Outlook. Design concepts had been completed and some work had been sourced to suppliers.

But, in the end, GM determined its resources would be better spent elsewhere.

GM's minivan sales have fallen nearly 50 percent since 2000. In 2005, GM sold 166,000 minivans compared with 323,000 in 2000. Sales industrywide have dropped about 20 percent in that time.

GM's slice of the minivan segment was about 15 percent in 2005. Segment leader Chrysler had 37 percent of the market, followed by Toyota with 16 percent.

Auto dealers and analysts have long criticized the styling and practicality of the GM minivans, saying they were too small and unattractive to compete with Chrysler, Honda and Toyota.

"I don't think that GM ever got the minivan right," said Eric Merkle, forecasting director at IRN Inc., a consulting firm in Grand Rapids.

The early Lumina APV, made from 1990-96, "looked like a Dust Buster," Merkle said.

GM later came out with different designs, but in making those vehicles on a smaller platform designed to sell in Europe as well as the United States, those minivans were far too compact to compete here, he said.

"It's about utility and functionality with a minivan," Merkle said. "GM has been much too willing to limp along with a product that wasn't up to par."

GM restructuring under way

GM is in the midst of a restructuring plan to cut annual spending by $9 billion.

The company is looking to bring its manufacturing schedule more in line with demand for its vehicles and cutting off the minivan fits with that strategy.

The company's lineup of new crossovers is considered a key piece of GM's plan to revive its North American auto business after losing $10.6 billion last year.

"We're thinking differently about cost, and how we can knock out some big items," Troy Clarke, president of GM North America, said Tuesday during a speech in Detroit on GM's turnaround.

Clarke said the automaker has managed to pare back costs and that early sales of its new Saturn Aura sedan have been strong, with the company on track to sell 6,000 of the vehicles in November.

Down at the Spring Hill plant in Tennessee, union leaders vented frustration at the automaker's decision to cancel the minivan.

GM has no concrete plans to build a new car or truck at the factory next year, when production of the Saturn Vue sport utility vehicle moves to Mexico, according to a union memo Tuesday. GM is also discontinuing production of the Saturn Ion sedan, the other vehicle built in Spring Hill.

The plant has been somewhat of an anomaly within GM since Saturn was launched in 1990 to compete with low-cost imports like Toyota, Honda and Nissan.

"Now with only four months left before we cease production of the Ion and Vue, we still have nothing tangible to call our own," UAW Local 1853 President Mike O'Rourke said in the newsletter to members.

GM's Clarke said the company has no plans to stop using the factory and has other products that could potentially be built there.

While crossovers are promising, the minivan market is not one GM can afford to abandon, said Jim Quinlan, a Chevy dealer from Knoxville, Tenn.

GM may do well to take some time to retool their minivan concept, he said, but he hopes GM will return to the segment. "They've just missed it on the design side. But this is going to continue to be an important segment."

Now you can call the Detroit News a liar!

New Developments:

Saturn Relay no longer in production.

New Minivan project has been scrapped.

Chevrolet "may" receive a version of the new crossovers.

Saturn WAS SCHEDULED to get a version of the scrapped minivan. So WAS Chevrolet and quote "other divisions".

Article quote:

While GM declined to comment on future vehicle plans, company insiders told The Detroit News that the company has no immediate plans to build minivans after it closes its last minivan-producing plant. The Doraville, Ga., plant builds the slow-selling Chevrolet Uplander and Buick Terraza minivans.

Article quote:

Instead, the automaker, which has always been a small player in the minivan market compared to Honda Motor Co. and the Chrysler Group, will focus on crossover vehicles that blend the characteristics of cars and sport utility vehicles. GM is preparing to launch a group of large crossovers that include the GMC Acadia, the Saturn Outlook and the Buick Enclave.

"We do believe it is a declining segment," GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz told The News on Tuesday. "Our new crossovers, Acadia, Outlook and Enclave with their three rows of seats and economical V-6 engines, can meet the same customer needs, minus the 'Soccer Mom' stigma.."

Article quote:

The Enclave hits showrooms next summer with the Acadia and Outlook on sale early next year; all three will be built in GM's new Delta Township plant near Lansing. A potential Chevrolet crossover may follow.

Lutz cautioned that GM has made no official move to pull out of the minivan market.

Edited December 3, 2006 by rkmdogs

[Mr.Krinkle]

I didnt get past the first line because of one word. Allow me to embolden it for you.

General Motors Corp. may be bowing out of the minivan business.

I understand you like the minivan...but this is just speculative. And its debut is approx. 3 years away. Thats plenty of time to initiate a backup or an alternate plan.

Theres no need to be an alarmist because of the last line:

Lutz cautioned that GM has made no official move to pull out of the minivan market.

For whatever reason this has garnered a lot of unnecessary press considering nothing at this time is official.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[rkmdogs]

....and it MAY snow in Hell someday too!

Did you read on about the shutdowns, and no future product planned

or announced for Spring Hill....?????

Production wheels don't get turned off overnight....... nor turned back

on that quick either!

But then that would require you to have some manufacturing knowledge,

which you have not shown to date. :AH-HA_wink:

[Mr.Krinkle]

...And heres your reason for the press

Word of GM's change came Tuesday when United Auto Workers leaders at the plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., learned that the factory is no longer in line to build minivans next year.

[Mr.Krinkle]

....and it MAY snow in Hell someday too!

Did you read on about the shutdowns, and no future product planned

or announced for Spring Hill....?????

Production wheels don't get turned off overnight....... nor turned back

on that quick either!

But then that would require you to have some manufacturing knowledge,

which you have not shown to date. :AH-HA_wink:

223419[/snapback]

There are people here more qualified to answer that.

The real issue here is the UAW and the plans for Spring Hill. Not the minivan.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Satty]

I have a feeling that if there is a GM minivan 3 years from now it will be a rebadges European for people who dont want a Vue/Equinox.

[ZL-1]

I have a feeling that if there is a GM minivan 3 years from now it will be a rebadges European for people who dont want a Vue/Equinox.

223424[/snapback]

I believe you're thinking Opel Zafira. I think it might do well over there.

[regfootball]

GM's minivan sales have fallen nearly 50 percent since 2000

translation.......we stopped trying, our product sucks, no wonder sales are dwon 50% so we won't even try anymore.

that must be what our American professors teach in our American colleges to American MBA exec managers.

QUIT when things get competitive.

Ford Ranger

Minivans

family sedans

QUIT QUIT QUIT

It's the American way! as long as the execs make big paychecks

tic toc tic toc

Edited December 3, 2006 by regfootball

[ZL-1]

tic toc tic toc

223435[/snapback]

Frantic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-toc?

But seriously, perhaps the added investment in the Lambda minivans could not be justified unless the segment exhibited a given growth rate? I believe there are older posts about the minivan market saying the segment is at its peak or has peaked already...

Maybe options other than Lambda are being evaluated for that segment : importing the Opel Zafira, developing EpII-based minivans (if that is possible- I have no idea re that), and whatever other scenarios.

Edited December 3, 2006 by ZL-1

[rkmdogs]

Frantic-tic-tic-tic-tic-tic-toc?

Maybe options other than Lambda are being evaluated for that segment : importing the Opel Zafira, developing EpII-based minivans (if that is possible- I have no idea re that), and whatever other scenarios.

223456[/snapback]

Right on ZL-1. GM Opel has not been sleeping in the past 5 years, and I just found pics in the GM archives of 3 versions that they make for other markets!

I'll try to attach the pics. They are the Movano, in 3 versions; the Combo Tour, which is also made in a cargo version, and the Vivaro which is also made in dual

versions.

Now, none of these may work as no-change transplants, but they sure-as-hell

offer more than a running start.

The Zafira, even the Chinese one, is still a CUV, not a mini-van!

Edited December 3, 2006 by rkmdogs

[rkmdogs]

O.K., I couldn't get all the pics to attach in the last thread, so here are the other two pics.

Edited December 3, 2006 by rkmdogs

[rkmdogs]

Another perspective, but a coffin-nail just the same.

No More Minivans

GM to rely on crossovers for people moving duties

By JAMIE LAREAU | RICK KRANZ | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

8:11 am, November 27, 2006

General Motors plans to cancel its next-generation minivan and abandon that vehicle segment.

Instead it will woo buyers with its mid-sized Lambda-based crossover vehicles, sources say. The minivans had been scheduled for the 2010 model year.

Chevrolet is scheduled to receive a crossover on the Lambda architecture by the 2010 model year. It will replace the Uplander minivan. Other minivans being killed are the Buick Terraza and Saturn Relay.

Crossovers off the front-drive Lambda architecture originally had been intended for more premium brands. The Lambda vehicles debut next month with the 2007 Saturn Outlook. The 2007 GMC Acadia follows early next year, and the 2008 Buick Enclave launches next summer.

GM's product board has not approved cancellation of the minivan program. But those close to GM say it's a safe bet the board will do so, based on declining sales in the segment, the high cost for GM and a belief that crossover vehicles can fill the void.

"The Lambda crossovers will do most anything a minivan can do - except for the sliding doors, which a lot of people don't like," says a source familiar with GM's product plans.

Suppliers get word

One GM supplier says it was awarded work on the GMT511 program, GM's internal code name for the new generation of minivans. But on Nov. 17, GM told suppliers it was canceling the program.

Jim Hall, vice president of the consulting company AutoPacific in Southfield, Mich., estimates GM had planned to spend $750 million to $1 billion on the minivan program. "They are in capital conservation mode," says Hall.

U.S. minivan sales have plummeted 19.0 percent since 2000, to 1,110,541 in 2005. That's a dramatic drop of 260,693 vehicles. The Chrysler group led the segment last year with 36.7 percent of the market, followed by Honda at 15.7 percent and GM at 14.9 percent. Last year GM sold 166,016 minivans.

This year, minivan sales are off 10.9 percent through October. Hall expects the downward trend to continue as buyers switch to crossovers and other vehicles.

Hall predicts minivan sales will continue to decline.

"There are not enough Gen-Xers to backfill. And as for Gen Y, nobody knows if they will want to buy minivans," he says.

The Lambda-based Chevrolet crossover will fill the slots vacated by the Chevrolet TrailBlazer SUV and Uplander minivan. The Chevrolet crossover's styling draws heavily from the Chevrolet Sequel concept, unveiled in September. GM plans to discontinue the TrailBlazer and GMC Envoy, although the timetable has not been announced.

7 or 8 seats

The Lambda-based crossovers accommodate seven or eight people, depending on seating configuration. But Hall believes GM will lose hardcore minivan buyers who want seats that fold into the floor or are removable.

The second-row seats in the Acadia, Enclave and Outlook are not removable and do not fold into the floor. The third-row seat folds flat.

The Acadia and Outlook are assembled at GM's Delta Township plant near Lansing, Mich. The Enclave goes into production there next spring. GM's minivans are built in the Doraville, Ga., plant, which is scheduled to close in 2008.

GM's new crossovers likely will resemble the Chevrolet Sequel concept.

[DetroitNut90]

And I have yet to see one of the 8-passenger Ventures that were allegedly available from '01 to '04 for sale.

223327[/snapback]

The Venture LS offered 8-passenger seating as an option. The Venture Warner Brothers' Edition had 8-passenger, leather w/cloth inserts as standard. They are out there, but you'll probably have better luck finding a Warner Bro's Edition.

If GM is cancelling the Lambda vans in favor of another platform, that's fine. But simply abandoning the minivan segment is beyond stupid, IMO.