More 'quiet' news about Enclave

[Flybrian]

GM seeks quiet riot for Enclave

2008 crossover boasts soundproofing features in a bid to compete with Lexus, Mercedes-Benz.

Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News

MILFORD -- General Motors Corp. will employ an arsenal of soundproofing technology in hopes of making its upcoming Buick Enclave crossover one of the quietest rides on the road.

Buick officials said Thursday that the brand will face off with the likes of Lexus and Mercedes-Benz when the five-door luxury crossover debuts next year as a 2008 model. The Enclave will be built at GM's new $1 billion plant in Delta Township near Lansing.

GM hopes a sleek exterior, laminated steel and perforated leather seats that absorb sound will quiet critics and sell the Enclave to a younger, more affluent crowd. The features are the latest incarnation of Buick's QuietTuning technology, used in such models as the Lucerne and LaCrosse sedans.

"This technology is very powerful and very simple," Buick general manager Steve Shannon said Thursday at the GM Proving Grounds, where the Enclave underwent sound testing in high-tech wind tunnels and on low-tech bumpy roads. "This is basically a luxury car that just happens to seat seven or eight people."

A quiet ride is not a perk, but an expectation in the luxury market, and it's an area where Buick has fallen short in the past, said Brian Moody, road test editor for Edmunds.com. "People who are purchasing luxury vehicles expect a certain serenity or quietness with a vehicle," Moody said. "If they don't get that, it seems cheap."

GM has been on a mission to reincarnate Buick as an American version of Lexus, Toyota Motor Co.'s popular luxury line.

Buick, while still profitable, has continued to lose longtime customers. U.S. sales dropped 15 percent in the first 10 months of 2006 from the same period last year.

Among the Enclave's soundproofing features:

• Acoustically laminated windshield glass that sandwiches a sound-absorbing glass panel between inner and outer panels.
• Soundproofing foam in 28 places that expands to seal openings that could let noise in.
• Tires with specially designed tread to avoid the noise associated with larger tires.

A team of engineers worked to ensure the Enclave absorbs sounds, reduces noise made by the vehicle and drowns out noise from the outside. One person's full-time job, for example, was to create the most pleasing sounds for functions such as shutting a door or rolling down a window, said Roger Barlow, a noise vibration team leader at Buick. "We're talking about excruciating detail," he said.

Edmund's Moody said the QuietTuning technology should help the Enclave compete when it goes on sale next summer, But it won't be enough to sell the vehicle in the crowded luxury market.

"There's more to a car," he said, "than making it sound quiet"

[Cananopie]

Edmund's Moody said the QuietTuning technology should help the Enclave compete when it goes on sale next summer, But it won't be enough to sell the vehicle in the crowded luxury market.

"There's more to a car," he said, "than making it sound quiet"

214688[/snapback]

Real surprising that a guy from Edmunds decides to pretend that Buick is solely focusing on the vehicle being quiet. The fact that the concept dropped jaws from some of Buick's biggest critics, even on this forum, sort of proves that Buick isn't just focusing on sound-proofing. Do the people at all major automotive magazines and websites get paid to constantly put down Buick? Or is there a rule that you have to be a die-hard fan of foreign makes to join?

[Paolino]

The damn thing is so freaking HOT! I want one, and I hate SUVs/CSVs/ATVs/FBIs/CIAs, etc.

[79VetteZ06]

Real surprising that a guy from Edmunds decides to pretend that Buick is solely focusing on the vehicle being quiet. The fact that the concept dropped jaws from some of Buick's biggest critics, even on this forum, sort of proves that Buick isn't just focusing on sound-proofing. Do the people at all major automotive magazines and websites get paid to constantly put down Buick? Or is there a rule that you have to be a die-hard fan of foreign makes to join?

215816[/snapback]

The tongues and hands of the Edmunds people should be severed. (Oh wait did I say that out loud?)

[caddycruiser]

A team of engineers worked to ensure the Enclave absorbs sounds, reduces noise made by the vehicle and drowns out noise from the outside. One person's full-time job, for example, was to create the most pleasing sounds for functions such as shutting a door or rolling down a window, said Roger Barlow, a noise vibration team leader at Buick. "We're talking about excruciating detail," he said.

Now THAT is the kind of thing that impresses me, but has been the norm for many imports for a long time--glad they're continuing the effort and making each new vehicle even more incredible than the last, in terms of refinement and detail.

[carstar]

"Acoustically laminated windshield glass that sandwiches a sound-absorbing glass panel between inner and outer panels."

How doing that to every window of the car?

[AxelTheRed]

I imagine that all the emphasis on quality that GM is about these days is taking some of the starch out of Toyota's pants.

I think everyone is going to have to rethink common claims that

a.) American cars are no good

and

b.) Toyota will overtake GM as #1 automaker

I can't wait for these products, but what I really can't wait for is when those pompous morons who've told the world for years that American cars suck have to eat their words.

[caddycruiser]

I imagine that all the emphasis on quality that GM is about these days is taking some of the starch out of Toyota's pants.

I think everyone is going to have to rethink common claims that

a.) American cars are no good

and

b.) Toyota will overtake GM as #1 automaker

I can't wait for these products, but what I really can't wait for is when those pompous morons who've told the world for years that American cars suck have to eat their words.

216772[/snapback]

Well yeah, and some dumb ratings aside, go compare even the overall feel and look of a Lucerne vs. an Avalon, an Aura vs. a Camry, etc., and some of the difference is already crystal clear. A lot of GM's still aren't at the level they could be, but anymore a lot of vaunted Toyotas just come off as more cheap than anything.

[balthazar]

"Acoustically laminated windshield glass that sandwiches a sound-absorbing glass panel between inner and outer panels."

How doing that to every window of the car?

Can't: windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact (so the driver can still see where he's going)- side & rear glass is tempered: heat-treated to break into those little cubes- safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving. No way to add lamination to tempered glass as far as I know.

[Paolino]

Can't: windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact (so the driver can still see where he's going)- side & rear glass is tempered: heat-treated to break into those little cubes- safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving. No way to add lamination to tempered glass as far as I know.

216835[/snapback]

Don't they just double the thickness of the side windows to create a quieter environment? I know they do that on MB... I thought they did that on the front windows of the Lucerne if I'm not mistaken...

[evok]

Can't: windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact (so the driver can still see where he's going)- side & rear glass is tempered: heat-treated to break into those little cubes- safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving. No way to add lamination to tempered glass as far as I know.

216835[/snapback]

HUH - Do you have a clue about what you just said?

[zete]

The more I look at the Enclave the more I want it. My lease on my current wheels is up next Fall, so this will be my next vehicle. It just makes every other comparable vehicle look pathetic style-wise.

And I agree, it seems folks in the media are grasping at straws re: GM and Buick, in particular. This car is simply gorgeous. Who else could have designed such a vehicle? It simply harkens back to Buicks from the 50s and early 60s, especially the Skylark. I find the fender curves and body look very reminiscent of those cars -- more so when I saw one go by me the other day.

Before anyone says I'm a geezer, I'm mid-40s and never thought I'd buy a Buick but I'll be buying this one.

[turbo200]

The more I look at the Enclave the more I want it. My lease on my current wheels is up next Fall, so this will be my next vehicle. It just makes every other comparable vehicle look pathetic style-wise.

And I agree, it seems folks in the media are grasping at straws re: GM and Buick, in particular. This car is simply gorgeous. Who else could have designed such a vehicle? It simply harkens back to Buicks from the 50s and early 60s, especially the Skylark. I find the fender curves and body look very reminiscent of those cars -- more so when I saw one go by me the other day.

Before anyone says I'm a geezer, I'm mid-40s and never thought I'd buy a Buick but I'll be buying this one.

216863[/snapback]

I would not accuse you of being a geezer for liking the Enclave, it's one of the best GM products in years.

[pow]

I know Volvo offers laminated side glass as a $300 option.

[pow]

Laminated glass in action...

[balthazar]

HUH - Do you have a clue about what you just said?

{ragged sigh}Windshields are laminated, side glass is tempered...FOR THE MOST PART. A niche-volume manufacturer offers laminated side glass and everything I posted is flat wrong, eh?

Tho there are pros & cons for each type, but I would not want laminated glass splintering into jagged spikes right next to my face! You can pick up a handful of broken tempered glass & roll it in your hand without injury.

Both types have been judged legally liable in accidents, BTW.

Edited November 18, 2006 by balthazar

[evok]

HUH - Do you have a clue about what you just said?

{ragged sigh}Windshields are laminated, side glass is tempered...FOR THE MOST PART. A niche-volume manufacturer offers laminated side glass and everything I posted is flat wrong, eh?

Tho there are pros & cons for each type, but I would not want laminated glass splintering into jagged spikes right next to my face! You can pick up a handful of broken tempered glass & roll it in your hand without injury.

Both types have been judged legally liable in accidents, BTW.

217028[/snapback]

Let me refresh your memory and what you said.

"Can't: windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact (so the driver can still see where he's going)- side & rear glass is tempered: heat-treated to break into those little cubes- safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving. "

Reasons you site are untrue.

Please go on and tell me all the pros and cons. Enlighten all of us since you seem to know what you are talking about.

Edited November 18, 2006 by evok

[balthazar]

Let me refresh your memory of what I said:

...windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact... side & rear glass is tempered... safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving.

U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #205:

Glazing Materials - This standard specifies requirements for glazing materials for use in motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment for the purpose of reducing injuries resulting from impact to glazing surfaces. The purpose of this standard is to ensure a necessary degree of transparency in motor vehicle windows for driver visibility, and to minimize the possibility of occupants being thrown through the vehicle windows in collisions.

Tempered glass:

Fully tempered glass is used in many applications because of its safety characteristics. Safety comes from strength and from a unique fracture pattern. Strength, which effectively resists wind pressure and impact, provides safety in many applications. When fully tempered glass breaks the glass fractures into small, relatively harmless fragments. This phenomenon called "dicing," markedly reduces the likelihood of injury to people as there are no jagged edges or sharp shards.

Fully tempered glass is a safety glazing material when manufactured to meet the requirements of the ANSI Z97.1 Standard and Federal Standard CPSC 16 CFR 1201. Federal Standard CPSC 16 CFR 1201, as well as state and local codes, require safety glazing material where the glazing might reasonably be exposed to human impact.

The reasons I cited are true.

This is not me talking, just me repeating the general NHTSA, DOT, ANSI and SAE standards.

Take it up with them, since they seem to know what they're talking about.

Edited November 18, 2006 by balthazar

[evok]

Let me refresh your memory of what I said:

U.S. Department of Transportation Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #205:

Tempered glass:

The reasons I cited are true.

This is not me talking, just me repeating the general NHTSA, DOT, ANSI and SAE standards.

Take it up with them, since they seem to know what they're talking about.

217060[/snapback]

Taken out of context... you are full of it and mislead. Read some more recent research.

[carstar]

i wonder what would happen i mention laminating the entire steel body of the enclave... lol

[evok]

§ 571.205 Standard No. 205, Glazing

materials.

S1. Scope. This standard specifies requirements

for glazing materials for

use in motor vehicles and motor vehicle

equipment.

S2. Purpose. The purpose of this

standard is to reduce injuries resulting

from impact to glazing surfaces, to ensure

a necessary degree of transparency

in motor vehicle windows for

driver visibility, and to minimize the

possibility of occupants being thrown

through the vehicle windows in collisions.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09...9cfr571.205.pdf

The Reg Text. Again you lie, mislead or do not understand.

Edited November 18, 2006 by evok

[Cananopie]

And the award to the most petty and meaningless disagreement on C&G goes to...

Edited November 18, 2006 by Cananopie

[balthazar]

evok- wow. We posted the same FMVSS and you're completely right and I'm lying, misleading and/or misunderstanding. "Again". I suppose you know my reasons for purposely lying to others here about a random safety standard, too. Dammnit; I'll have to be much more careful in the future with sharp sticks like yourself on the case, or my Master Plan will be thwarted.

[evok]

And the award to the most petty and meaningless disagreement on C&G goes to...

217152[/snapback]

I agree.

[evok]

evok- wow. We posted the same FMVSS and you're completely right and I'm lying, misleading and/or misunderstanding. "Again". I suppose you know my reasons for purposely lying to others here about a random safety standard, too. Dammnit; I'll have to be much more careful in the future with sharp sticks like yourself on the case, or my Master Plan will be thwarted.

217168[/snapback]

No: I posted the purpose from the Standard. What I assume you posted and I do not feel like digging through the Federal Register to verify, may, be from the Preamble to a vintage FMVSS No. 205 publication. But the Preamble is not regulatory.

Your original post that I replied to was just silly. Your subsequent replies were just deflecting your original statements.

[balthazar]

Sorry- not a 'suspected' vintage version, but the very same §571.205. You might not have automatically assumed when you didn't know. Did you find yours at the source like I did?:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations...csr/571.205.htm

I know- shocking that someone who has no idea what he's talking about would go to the entity that makes the rule for the definition of the rule, but I'm wily that way.

Again, take up your 'silly' allegations with the DOT- it's their standard, not mine. I'm sure they'd be quite appreciative to learn they're lying & misleading.

[razoredge]

Geeze Balth, did you do something to this arrogant person in another life ? He seems to follow you around just to throw little snide remarks in at your posts. At least when you and I (or anyone) go at it I take my stand right square in the middle of the ring. This....whatever..... is nothing but a heckler on the side lines.

Ya got something to say or add provoke how about you spell in out in your first responce.......rather than playing this wittle immature game all the time. Usually after 3 or 4 degrading posts you finally say what little you had to offer in the first place................hows' abouts' you start showing your age ? beings' how you recently implied to someone else how lack of maturity somehow made you ?better? problem was in that particular exchange it was clearly you that was out of line and you couldnt take what you were handing out..........imagine that

[evok]

Sorry- not a 'suspected' vintage version, but the very same §571.205. You might not have automatically assumed when you didn't know. Did you find yours at the source like I did?:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations...csr/571.205.htm

I know- shocking that someone who has no idea what he's talking about would go to the entity that makes the rule for the definition of the rule, but I'm wily that way.

Again, take up your 'silly' allegations with the DOT- it's their standard, not mine. I'm sure they'd be quite appreciative to learn they're lying & misleading.

217184[/snapback]

From your fmcsa link:

"S2. Purpose. The purpose of this standard is to reduce injuries resulting from impact to glazing surfaces, to ensure a necessary degree of transparency in motor vehicle windows for driver visibility, and to minimize the possibility of occupants being thrown through the vehicle windows in collisions."

(carstar @ Nov 17 2006, 01:56 AM)

"Acoustically laminated windshield glass that sandwiches a sound-absorbing glass panel between inner and outer panels."

How doing that to every window of the car?

Your stated purpose: Can't: windshields are laminated to keep them relatively visually clear upon impact (so the driver can still see where he's going)- side & rear glass is tempered: heat-treated to break into those little cubes- safer than laminated but obviously you would not be able to see thru a crazed tempered windshield if something hit you when still moving.

For the last time - The purpose of laminated glass for the windshield is for occupant impact safety during a crash. Yes there are visibility requirements for all glass but that was not the question you responded to and your answer does not reflect that. FMVSS No. 205 does not address remaining visually clear upon impact. There is no stated purpose or performance requirement for that characteristic

Also,

Laminated glass is not required on other window openings other than the front. That does not mean that tempered glass is more safe than laminated glass for the side windows. The standard just does not require it at this time. There have been recent studies that show that laminated glass maybe more safe for the side windows and that there maybe benefit during rollover crashes preventing occupant ejections because it does not shatter. But with the advent of rollover side bags, occupant containment maybe achieved through other means. In practice the shattering of the tempered side glass creates a portal for either full or partial ejection resulting in app 10k fatalities a year.

Again that does not mean tempered glass is more safe. There just are no requirements for laminated glass and there maybe better strategies to improve occupant protection.

And yes the OEMs can use laminated side glass. Joan Claybrook encourages that.

So yes the OEMS can - and not as you state can't.

Now I am going to watch the BIG game.

Edited November 18, 2006 by evok

[sciguy_0504]

Laminated side glass or not, I love the Enclave and want to make love in it.

[balthazar]

Food for thought:

"Laminated glass, which is two layers of plate glass with plastic laminate in between, is used on automotive windshields. It has been used for decades to keep objects from easily getting through the windshield and entering the vehicle, not the other way around. In fact, I have seen more than one hapless unbelted occupant of a vehicle propelled fully through a laminated windshield.

Safety glass, which is designed to shatter into very small pieces, is used on side windows in cars. This type of glass is easy to shatter should you need to make a hasty exit from the vehicle, and that's a key reason it's put there. It also shatters into small pieces with very little "sharding," reducing the opportunity for serious injury from broken glass.

Laminated glass requires a special saw to get through. With 12 years of experience, it still takes me five minutes to saw through a car windshield. If your car is on fire you'd prefer safety glass for this reason alone. Laminated glass also causes serious head and facial injuries to those who do full face-plants against the windshield despite seat belt warnings. It will have the same effect in a side window if an occupant is unbelted.

Some automakers are putting laminated glass in the side windows of high-end cars, but this trend should be viewed with great caution. This type of glass does prevent people from "popping a window" to escape from a vehicle in an emergency situation. Two examples of emergencies of this type are vehicle crashes with resulting fires and accidents where a vehicle ends up partially submerged in a body of water. In both cases, the electrical system will likely short out and will prevent easy exit since nearly all cars now have power windows.

Automotive glass should not be used to keep people in the vehicle. Using automotive glass as a backup safety feature would do more harm than good. Seat belts are to keep you in the vehicle, not windows."

[razoredge]

Seat belts are to keep you in the vehicle, not windows."

217324[/snapback]

dut da da !

In practice the shattering of the tempered side glass creates a portal for either full or partial ejection resulting in app 10k fatalities a year.

mankinds only natural predator

In fact, I have seen more than one hapless unbelted occupant of a vehicle propelled fully through a laminated windshield.

I myself, once kicked out the windshield from inside, after a rollover accident, it went out with one, highly adrenilized two legged kick. From there it enabled me to get the other two occupants out of the car. The driver and person in back seat. The car was laying on my (passenger) side. Factual truth! Had it been a head on I would have taken the glass out with my head. As very few were wearing seatbelts back in the early 80's. No side glass damage, no ejection.

moving on

I cant even begin to count all the times I've heard or people flying through "side glass".

"Probability has increased as of late due to occupants refusal to wear seatbelts and the disconnection of air bags. This is compounded by the rising increase of high speed donuts. These high speed donuts are a phenomenon local police have accredited to the recent fad of drifting. Its been observed as a cult, suspected to have its roots inflicted on American youth through the movie series "Fast and Furious".

film at 11:00

In sports tonight, there was a big upset in the BIG game"

[97regalGS]

Food for thought:

"Laminated glass, which is two layers of plate glass with plastic laminate in between, is used on automotive windshields. It has been used for decades to keep objects from easily getting through the windshield and entering the vehicle, not the other way around. In fact, I have seen more than one hapless unbelted occupant of a vehicle propelled fully through a laminated windshield.

Safety glass, which is designed to shatter into very small pieces, is used on side windows in cars. This type of glass is easy to shatter should you need to make a hasty exit from the vehicle, and that's a key reason it's put there. It also shatters into small pieces with very little "sharding," reducing the opportunity for serious injury from broken glass.

Laminated glass requires a special saw to get through. With 12 years of experience, it still takes me five minutes to saw through a car windshield. If your car is on fire you'd prefer safety glass for this reason alone. Laminated glass also causes serious head and facial injuries to those who do full face-plants against the windshield despite seat belt warnings. It will have the same effect in a side window if an occupant is unbelted.

Some automakers are putting laminated glass in the side windows of high-end cars, but this trend should be viewed with great caution. This type of glass does prevent people from "popping a window" to escape from a vehicle in an emergency situation. Two examples of emergencies of this type are vehicle crashes with resulting fires and accidents where a vehicle ends up partially submerged in a body of water. In both cases, the electrical system will likely short out and will prevent easy exit since nearly all cars now have power windows.

Automotive glass should not be used to keep people in the vehicle. Using automotive glass as a backup safety feature would do more harm than good. Seat belts are to keep you in the vehicle, not windows."

217324[/snapback]

nice diversion.

let me re-cap.

someone says - laminated glass, why not do side windows?

balth replies - it physically can't be done. (also comments that front windshield is laminated for 'visibility reasons')

someone else - Mercedes, Volvo and Buick do it

balth replies - some 'niche' guys do it and then gets all defensive(silently admitting that his first response, about it not being possible, was blatantly wrong.)

evok jumps in and takes a poke,

after some banter, it becomes clear that the purpose of lamination on windshield glass has nothing to do with visibility, but rather occupant safety. thus rendering the second part of balth's first post completely erroneous and misleading. (not intentionally misleading, we hope, but misleading and factually wrong, nonethelss.)

then balth adds some meanlingless drivel about cutting glass with a saw and such, that while, amusing is meant to divert people from the fact that his first post was a bunch of hooey.

[balthazar]

Thanks regal, you're a prince.

The intent of my initial post was that side glass is always tempered. This is why I posted "It {laminated side glass} can't be done". I was mistakenly under the impression that tempered side glass was federally mandated; but if in fact you can get laminated side glass today, that's enough to prove the impression incorrect.

One might understand my impression in that as of model year 2000, 99.9% of all U.S. market vehicles feature tempered side & rear glass. I never said it was impossible, but I did say that it couldn't be done because side glass is tempered... which it is 99.9% of the time. Adding a plastic laminate to glass that's heated to 1200 degrees during processing might not work too well. Guess I missed that 0.1% of cars with laminated side glass. Pretty monsterous error on my part.

Was this a "lie"? Certainly not. An intentional "misleading"? Certainly not. Did my hackles rise upon being called a liar, a deceiver and/or an idiot without provocation? Yes, apparently so. I'm human, and sometimes I have human reactions to open belligerence and/or arrogance. A simple posting of the correct fact would been far more constructive, but we didn't get that, not for a long drawn-out while. Can't say I'm surprised.

Since tempered is not mandated, then yes, laminated side glass can be done. NHTSA did a study comparing tempered to laminated and did not come to any conclusions regarding injury potentials, to the extent the agency chose not to recommend one over the other. However, having broken both types more than once with the intent of studying the results- my observations have shown without a doubt that tempered is far safer than laminated upon contact (occupant retention is another matter, but far from the only one). Some of the other significant factors to consider, I posted above. This is supported by the fact that almost no manufacturer uses laminated side glass, notably those with supposed reputations for safety. Besides the point, perhaps, but it does answer the question 'why not use laminated on side windows'. Why has supposedly safety-conscious volvo primarily used tempered for decades and decades, hmmm?

However, tempered glass IS illegal in windshields in the U.S., and although the FMVSS does not specifically state such, I have read more than once over many years that part of the reason is for visibility in case of impact. Apparently the sources that said this were in error. Clearly penetration is also a prime consideration. But if you've ever 'looked thru' crazed tempered glass, common sense says you wouldn't want your windshield doing that upon impact at speed. Common sense has never been an automatic part of federal actions, needless to say.

In closing, I made an honest mistake, esp in light of the frequency of laminated side glass useage. I would hope that my 'personality' here over the years would not give cause for most members to assume deception & lies are behind my posts. There's always one in the bunch, I suppose...