NA 3.8 Series II vs. SC 3.8 Series II

[NOS2006]

Yeah, couldn't think of the code for the NA version (the SC is the L67).

Anyway, what are the differences between the two? I know the L67 is supercharged and only fits in GPs, but are there any forged internals?

In other words, could you pretty much take a regular NA 3.8 Series II Grand Prix and throw on an M90 supercharger (andthe spark plugs and all that) and have an L67 right there? Or is there more to it? Just curious.

Thanks in advance.

[Northstar]

The L67 doesn't only fit in Grand Prix's... it's been in the Regal, Impala, and Monte Carlo.

And to answer your question I don't really know, but it shouldn't involve much modification.

[Flybrian]

Cars with the s/c 3800 also come with heavy-duty transmission to handle the extra torque output.

[razoredge]

L67 first appeared in H/C bodies, LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT!....... Bonneville and Olds Touring Sedan, then LSS, followed by the Riviera(G) .............. OK.........?

GP was still fooling around with the "Twin Cam" engine from the Chebby family

Seriously however - The differences are tremendous. Different heads, pistons, rods, ? crank ? I forget . No, you can not put the L67 stuff on the L36. The L67 was a serious engineering effort, so was its non identical twin the L36 for that matter. Injectors were placed in the head on the L67, in the manifold in the L36 for an obvious difference but the internal ones are important too, one of which is the lower compression pistons needed for the forced engine.

Then you have the HD tranny as Fly mentioned

The PCMs are different and thusly so is the engine harness and who knows what else.

Is this Camaro involved ?

Im sure you know ZZ performance offers a - Centrifugal Supercharger kit, but its for W bodies, not sure about the Camaro engine set up/interchangability. Sounds like alot of money but its done in a day or weekend, without all the BS involved with the engine swap and interfaceing

http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=244

http://zzperformance.com/

[NOS2006]

First, yeah, I know the L67s were found in many other applications. I've just got my mind caught up on GPs.

Second is no, my Camaro's not involved. L67 setups do not fit in 4th Gen F-Bodies.

Thanks for the info though, guys. This weekend, since I'm at home for the weekend, I started looking for a nice winter car. Well, I'm pretty stuck on the '97-03 GP GTs. However, I've seen a couple damn good deals on GTPs. Only problem though is that I couldn't afford to straight up put down all the money on the table for a GTP (many of them are for sale by owner), but I'd love to have one. If I were to buy a GTP and like it a lot, which I bet I would, I might be willing to sell my car to catch up on the money I paid for the GTP. But who knows, this is all hypothetical right now and who knows what's going to happen. I'll probably just end up with a GP GT..

Edited October 29, 2006 by NOS2006

[razoredge]

If your not that attached to the Camaro, my advise would be to just keep driving it and save your money. At this point in your life.

I did realize after my post by rereading yours that you were talking about GP.

[NOS2006]

No, I love my car, but I need some things fixed that will cost me some good time/money ($500 for rear main, air conditioner, exhaust leak). Plus, it doesn't get too good of MPG like it could. The GP GTP gets 17/29 MPG with a 1/4 mile time close to mine. That's insane. If I can pick up a GP GTP for $4000 I'll have a more stable car, better MPG, and a car I can drive year-round. Plus, it's an attractive car. With a little bit of exterior work (removing badges/side molding, clear turn signals, 40th anniversary spoiler), it would arguably be a better looking car than mine is. If I keep my car, I'm going to end up wasting about $4000 on a paint job... I just don't know. I have an emotional connection with my car, especially since it was my parents' gift to me, but I just don't know. We've discussed getting rid of it before (remember the Cobalt SS SC I wanted but couldn't afford?).

[razoredge]

$500 < $4000

fix it and use it up, get another year out of it, then move on. Drive a GP all winter, parking around college and what not and you be thinking about a paint job on that come spring.

I know you have the "new" car bug, I get it too often myself but its not all its cracked up to be when you put it on paper.

[NOS2006]

$500 < $4000

fix it and use it up, get another year out of it, then move on. Drive a GP all winter, parking around college and what not and you be thinking about a paint job on that come spring.

I know you have the "new" car bug, I get it too often myself but its not all its cracked up to be when you put it on paper.

209958[/snapback]

Either way though, I'll need a winter car. I'm not driving the Camaro this winter.. it doesn't get me from Point A to Point B in snow. Therefore, it's not just $500 <$4000. And, it's not just $500, again, because I'll end up with a paint job one way or another.

I know you're trying to help though.. so thanks.

[NOS2006]

Update: when my parents were saying goodbye to me tonight, my dad told me I should get rid of my car. I was like, okay? He said that it's just a new problem all the time so to get something else. I guess this means that maybe I can afford a GTP now..

[FAPTurbo]

Funny your bringing this up because I too, was looking at Grand Prix GTP's a while back for a car.

I'm interested to see how this turns out.

And question for razoredge? You're always espousing the greatness of the 3800, so you mind giving me the lowdown on the engine... fuel economy, low end grunt, personal opinions, etc?...

Or is there a dedicated website on the 3800 and its supercharged cousin that you recommend I check out?

[NOS2006]

All I can say is I remember the one dude that was kind of an assistant-teacher in my auto class having one. He pulled next to me and blew my doors off.. it was crazy. But, not only that, those are some sexy cars with good MPG.

[razoredge]

The supercharged engine is nearly bullit proof. the NA series II engine is plagued with the intake and intake manifold gasket failures. If not for that it too would be nearly bullit proof. I say nearly because nothing made by man can be a-hole proof.

Our mileage on LSS is 20 -26. We do little real city driving, with lots of slow, stop and go traffic. We live in the country and our citys are small & rarely congested when we visit. We get low 20's with our around the hills country driving and the best we ever achieved on interstates was 26. That was at 72-low 80's mph. I rarely drive 55 on straight roads or 65 on interstates. I try but always look down and find Im speeding. Im sure at 65 the estimates some people give of 28 or even higher are possible, but I put more value on my time and keeping involved with my driving than being bored to death for an extra few miles on the gallon.

Drivetrain shifts out of first around 50 mph, while its not a neck snapper it has this constant growing power, the higher the revs the harder it pulls, it just keeps giving and giving. Shifts are slow and sloppy, there is a "torque management" program in the ECM that backs off fuel delievery and retards timing during shifts. This is a bit lame but its how they got the 4T65E HD FWD transaxle to survive 280 lb ft of torque.

However ! The most beautiful thing about this drivetrain is, its there for the real driving needs. Lets face it, big burnouts and awsome 0-60 is not how we drive everyday. What we may need everyday is the ability to get past these drivers that seem to think their car is about to careen off the road at any second and slow down for the slightest curve in the road or oncoming traffic, but when we get to the straights........they speed up ..........well it takes about 4 seconds to eliminate these obstructions. There is no time wasted or sloppy shift when this drivetrain shifts down to second and takes it up to 70-80-90 in very little time. Typically not enough time to take eyes off the road. I have always found I was approaching 90 by the time I took my lane back, backed off and looked around. The first time I went to pass a car I nearly ran into the back of it because the power and speed came so much faster than what I was used to. This is the work of the supercharger and the 280 lb ft. Feeling is believeing. It will smoke em a bit off the line, Id guess 0-30 isnt bad but from there on is what makes this drivetrain impressive.

GP's are faster but the spec on engine and final drive ratio are the same. I guess the GP is slightly lighter and has less frontal area. They may also shift somewhat firmer but I really dont know. I could believe that the luxury cars were valved to have nearly unoticeable shift, which is the case under typical easy driving.

Our 3900 G6 GTP is a bear 0-60, most likely due to the 6sp and much lower finals but Ill tell you right now, its got nothing on the SC 3800 for 50-100 pull. Its also not getting any better mileage but will run cheaper gas. Its not a good idea to run the SC with 87 or 89 octane, definantly not if you have big hills or put your foot in it from time to time. So that extra 20 cents a gallon is a consideration.

[NOS2006]

Yeah, I almost forgot about needing 91 octane. But, hell, I use 89 as is, so that's only 10 cents per gallon more.

Oh, and I looked up some quotes online at statefarm.com:

For a 1998 Camaro coupe, pricing for me alone was $1190/six months.

For a 2002 Grand Prix GTP sedan with the same exact options as the Camaro, pricing for me alone was $979/six months. That right there is saving me about $35/month. That's sweet.

[FAPTurbo]

The supercharged engine is nearly bullit proof. the NA series II engine is plagued with the intake and intake manifold gasket failures. If not for that it too would be nearly bullit proof. I say nearly because nothing made by man can be a-hole proof.

Our mileage on LSS is 20 -26. We do little real city driving, with lots of slow, stop and go traffic. We live in the country and our citys are small & rarely congested when we visit. We get low 20's with our around the hills country driving and the best we ever achieved on interstates was 26. That was at 72-low 80's mph. I rarely drive 55 on straight roads or 65 on interstates. I try but always look down and find Im speeding. Im sure at 65 the estimates some people give of 28 or even higher are possible, but I put more value on my time and keeping involved with my driving than being bored to death for an extra few miles on the gallon.

Drivetrain shifts out of first around 50 mph, while its not a neck snapper it has this constant growing power, the higher the revs the harder it pulls, it just keeps giving and giving. Shifts are slow and sloppy, there is a "torque management" program in the ECM that backs off fuel delievery and retards timing during shifts. This is a bit lame but its how they got the 4T65E HD FWD transaxle to survive 280 lb ft of torque.

However ! The most beautiful thing about this drivetrain is, its there for the real driving needs. Lets face it, big burnouts and awsome 0-60 is not how we drive everyday. What we may need everyday is the ability to get past these drivers that seem to think their car is about to careen off the road at any second and slow down for the slightest curve in the road or oncoming traffic, but when we get to the straights........they speed up ..........well it takes about 4 seconds to eliminate these obstructions. There is no time wasted or sloppy shift when this drivetrain shifts down to second and takes it up to 70-80-90 in very little time. Typically not enough time to take eyes off the road. I have always found I was approaching 90 by the time I took my lane back, backed off and looked around. The first time I went to pass a car I nearly ran into the back of it because the power and speed came so much faster than what I was used to. This is the work of the supercharger and the 280 lb ft. Feeling is believeing. It will smoke em a bit off the line, Id guess 0-30 isnt bad but from there on is what makes this drivetrain impressive.

GP's are faster but the spec on engine and final drive ratio are the same. I guess the GP is slightly lighter and has less frontal area. They may also shift somewhat firmer but I really dont know. I could believe that the luxury cars were valved to have nearly unoticeable shift, which is the case under typical easy driving.

Our 3900 G6 GTP is a bear 0-60, most likely due to the 6sp and much lower finals but Ill tell you right now, its got nothing on the SC 3800 for 50-100 pull. Its also not getting any better mileage but will run cheaper gas. Its not a good idea to run the SC with 87 or 89 octane, definantly not if you have big hills or put your foot in it from time to time. So that extra 20 cents a gallon is a consideration.

210162[/snapback]

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind.

[Gnitro]

I also have a question about the Grand Prix. On the Pontiac website it looks like all the GT's are supercharged in MY 2006. Were the MY 2004 GT's all supercharged?

[bobo]

I also have a question about the Grand Prix. On the Pontiac website it looks like all the GT's are supercharged in MY 2006. Were the MY 2004 GT's all supercharged?

216560[/snapback]

In 2006, the GTP was dropped, and the GT got the supercharged engine. Earlier GT's have naturally aspirated engines.

[BB_454]

www.pfyc.com

www.3800performance.com

www.zzperformance.com

http://www.intense-racing.com/

And I belive the NA 3800 is the L36 and the SC is L67. ZZper. currently has the fastest GP using their turbo kit, runs something like mid 9's, they have a cool video of it beating a SC viper on their site.

Edit: ZZperformance also sells a kit that you can install a factory eaton m90 sc onto a stock l36.

Edited November 17, 2006 by BB_454