Life Liberty & The Pursuit - since 1902

[razoredge]

Id say that photo would be enough to send the remaining stuffed shirt, suburban born and raised, right straight to the competition..................

"shes alot of things but she aint perty"

heres some photos to remind the tunnel visioned what Cadillac was 40 years ago.

"Clay model XP-825, with razor-edge lines and a formal roofline, led directly to the production '67 coupe. "

Edited November 25, 2006 by razoredge

[evok]

Not anymore. Delta <the Cobalt/Ion/G5> is profitable now. W-body is so old it almost *has* to be profitable now, the major costs were amortized out in the 90s I bet. The Epsilon is likely to be profitable. G-body <DTS/Lucerne> is selling fairly ok and using mostly off the shelf technology.

if anyone is a one hit wonder these days, it's Chrysler.

219163[/snapback]

You rely too much on a quote from Lutz that cannot be independently verified. Are they making money on the entry-level vehicle at $13k, the $20k SS or the whole GMX-001 program? But looking at GM’s NA earnings over the past two years, GM is not making money so there goes that theory. Even when I factor out the losses from assets write-downs and GMAC the situation is red. Call me a skeptic!

As for your statements about tooling amortization; well the quick answer is those costs are insignificant compared to the variable costs. I.e. materials, and manufacturing are most of it, not tooling and development.

[enzl]

You rely too much on a quote from Lutz that cannot be independently verified.  Are they making money on the entry-level vehicle at $13k, the $20k SS or the whole GMX-001 program?  But looking at GM’s NA earnings over the past two years, GM is not making money so there goes that theory.  Even when I factor out the losses from assets write-downs and GMAC the situation is red.  Call me a skeptic!

As for your statements about tooling amortization; well the quick answer is those costs are insignificant compared to the variable costs.  I.e. materials, and manufacturing are most of it, not tooling and development.

219959[/snapback]

My educated guess is based on the fact that the 800's & 900's are highly profitable, yet losses were in the Billions in US operations....the implication being that the losses must be a result of other carlines...

I can't imagine that the Delta is as profitable as Sigma, if only because most units of Delta are sold at a steep discount, between the rental, fleet & retail with $thousands on the hood. There can't possibly be more than a $2,500 profit built into the average Delta in the first place, given the fixed costs of manufacturing them....

[evok]

My educated guess is based on the fact that the 800's & 900's are highly profitable, yet losses were in the Billions in US operations....the implication being that the losses must be a result of other carlines...

220340[/snapback]

The first couple quarters of the year reflect that. GM pulled the 4-5 grand rebates off the 900 utilites compared to the 800s. I did the math and it just seems to works out.

I can't imagine that the Delta is as profitable as Sigma, if only because most units of Delta are sold at a steep discount, between the rental, fleet & retail with $thousands on the hood. There can't possibly be more than a $2,500 profit built into the average Delta in the first place, given the fixed costs of manufacturing them....

GM probably makes 2 -3 grand on the SS and high option model and they probably loose 2-3 grand on the base. Depending on product mix, breaking even with Delta would be a success.

Sigma makes money on the product mix.

[The O.C.]

that 3-series doesn't look any better or more luxurious than the Cimarron.

215783[/snapback]

Oldsmoboi.....what kind of crack ARE you smokin'?

[The O.C.]

Escalade is at least a two hit wonder.  No real competition from Acura, Audi, Infiniti.  No one has done the Escalade better.

The next gen CTS isn't out yet, but from the looks of things, that'll be at least a two hit wonder. It looks as if it will address all the "issues" that the current CTS has.

They've fixed the SRX. It now truely is world class and can easily sit with the likes of MB, Acura, and Audi.

The STS fix is coming. You've seen the pics I'm sure. It already has the platform, now it's getting the interior. Audi, Benz and even BMW should be worried.

One hit wonder what?!

219085[/snapback]

Crack smoking again?

I'm sorry for the sarcasm Oldsmoboi.....but SERIOUSLY....do you REALLY think Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes are worried about a "fixed" STS?

SRX interior is now gorgeous....but that alone won't turn a sales turd into a sales star....

CTS SHOULD be awesome.....as long as it doesn't end up being "dumbed down" like the current STS was.....

[balthazar]

Is bmw, mercedes and lexus so completely conceited and self-centered as to NOT consider the competition?? Did bmw and mercedes likewise ignore lexus 15-10 years ago? How did that work out?

5 years ago there was no Cadillac threat to consider. In the meantime bmw and mercedes both have seen notable tarnish on their respective stars (idrive, numerous reliability issues, polarizing styling...).

If they're not paying attention, they sure as hell should be.

[evok]

Is bmw, mercedes and lexus so completely conceited and self-centered as to NOT consider the competition?? Did bmw and mercedes likewise ignore lexus 15-10 years ago? How did that work out?

5 years ago there was no Cadillac threat to consider. In the meantime bmw and mercedes both have seen notable tarnish on their respective stars (idrive, numerous reliability issues, polarizing styling...).

221360[/snapback]

1990 --------- 2005

BMW 63K ----------- 266k

MB 78k ------------ 224k

Lexus app. 60k -----------302k

Cadillac 258 ----------235k

Lincoln 230k ---------123k

Total US market 1990 -----------2005

----------------app 12mill --------app 17 million

It appears from the above data it worked out very well for the Germans. Bigger question is, how did that work out for the domestics?

Edited November 29, 2006 by evok

[balthazar]

What would the German's 2005 volumes be if there was no lexus? The answer is pure conjecture at this point, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd be much higher.

If there was no lexus and Cadillac was still where they were in -say-1995, mercedes or bmw may have actually broken the segment volume record, and assumedly, their respective profit records.

Then again, they may not have wanted the problems such rapid production expansion would have exponentially brought to them.

As it is, Cadillac has turned a big corner and bmw/mercedes are 2nd/4th in sales- certainly not bad... but not as good as it could be.

Lincoln is just a sad shadow of itself.

[Mr.Krinkle]

, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd be much higher.

221844[/snapback]

Deal!

Theres three bridges and two tunnels, just tell me which direction.

[gm4life]

I love the direction the new Cadillac, life, liberty and the pursuit are taking the brand. I know it will hook younger hipper buyers on Cadillac!

[97regalGS]

What would the German's 2005 volumes be if there was no lexus? The answer is pure conjecture at this point, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd be much higher.

If there was no lexus and Cadillac was still where they were in -say-1995, mercedes or bmw may have actually broken the segment volume record, and assumedly, their respective profit records.

Then again, they may not have wanted the problems such rapid production expansion would have exponentially brought to them.

As it is, Cadillac has turned a big corner and bmw/mercedes are 2nd/4th in sales- certainly not bad... but not as good as it could be.

Lincoln is just a sad shadow of itself.

221844[/snapback]

just out of curiosity, exactly what 'big corner' did Cadillac turn?

[balthazar]

The recent about-face WRT the steady decline in sales & segment marketshare from '79 thru circa '00 is a fairly major accomplishment (a 'big corner' IMO).

[ellives]

I read this thread tonight and it amazes me how much re-writing of history there is, particularly with regard to what has become known as the "bustle back" Seville. While the critics can deride the exterior design, I was at the Boston IAS in 1979 when this car was unveiled and there was an audible amazement of the car when it was unveiled back then. I remember it was displayed on a round, rotating platform with the model spokesperson up there describing the features of the car. To me the car took it's style cues from one of the Rolls or Bentley models. They sold a ton of them. Apparently they weren't as bad as the revisionists would imply.

I find it humorous people bitch about the fact GM doesn't take design risks but criticize them for building this car which was obviously a risk since it is visual departure from everything else built at the time. What was at the time a trend setting design has become universally seen as poor taste. Personally I don't think the design was what ruined this car as much as it was the quality of the 4100 which even today brings fear and loathing in the minds of mechanics. Unfortunately what followed this design was a true embarrassment in a little box of a car (in both the Seville and Eldorado versions) that effectively killed the sales of the line until the 92 redesign was released.

The challenge for luxury car builders is to gradually change and improve the exterior design as the model evolves. Cadillac broke this when they moved from the bustleback to the next design. (Part of the problem with the then new design is buyers felt they were getting into a toy car it was so small relative to the prior model.) I think they've done a good job of this gradual change particularly with the current vs. prior Escalade and apparently with the '08 CTS. I *do* wonder about the fate of the STS vs. DTS with the introduction of the '08 CTS. It's becoming what the STS was originally born for.

[balthazar]

There is a great deal of revisionist thinking/writing on the past. Want another example- go read C&D's review of the '81 Cimarron- their review was quite favorable/positive. GO ask the same writers now what they think.

In late '79 when the '80 Seville was introduced- it was the epitome of luxury; that's where the market was. BMW & mercedes had but slivers of segment marketshare & Cadillac was just shy of nearly 400K annual sales. I still have a fondness for the interiors in these (there was a '76 Seville and a '78 SDV in my family- different but similar interiors). I still remember seeing an all-red 'bustleback' Seville with the wider Elegante molding from above on a hillside, the lines were fantastic.

Cadillac's undoing was a 3-punch: 1. the V8-6-4, 2. the diesels, 3. the extreme downsizing of the mid '80s.