*Gasp* Another Camry glitch

[Drew Dowdell]

Camry glitch

In four-cylinder Camrys, the software allegedly learns the driver's style, and those drivers with a frugal right foot get less response over time. Sudden demands for power – like a quick shift into the passing lane – can confuse the system and leave drivers with less power than they need.

[the_yellow_dart]

I remember my driving instructor telling me something similar about the 96-00 generation Civic I took the lessons in.

What does it "learn", exactly?

[aaaantoine]

That's not right.

Regardless of your driving style, if you need to accelerate to get out of the way of traffic, that power needs to be there.

Sadly, that's one of the only arguments we can politically give in favor of building fast cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

That's not right.

Regardless of your driving style, if you need to accelerate to get out of the way of traffic, that power needs to be there.

Sadly, that's one of the only arguments we can politically give in favor of building fast cars.

205813[/snapback]

More appropriately, the power needs to be there that you expect to be there. If I was driving my CTS around very conservatively, then needed to gun it to merge and the engine responded with all the oompf of an '83 Benz diesel with a busted turbo, I'd be in trouble.

If I was driving an '83 Benz diesel with a busted turbo, at least I could plan ahead..... because I'd have time to.

[aaaantoine]

More appropriately, the power needs to be there that you expect to be there. If I was driving my CTS around very conservatively, then needed to gun it to merge and the engine responded with all the oompf of an '83 Benz diesel with a busted turbo, I'd be in trouble.

If I was driving an '83 Benz diesel with a busted turbo, at least I could plan ahead..... because I'd have time to.

205817[/snapback]

Yeah, that does sum it up better.

[Flybrian]

Toyota: Lurching Forward

[caddycruiser]

One thing I always thought was odd was how Toyota/Lexus has had SO, SO many issues with hesitation, lag, etc. when it comes to the transmissions in most of their FWD vehicles. Read about it in the late 90's, and still read about it in brand new vehicles today.

Matter of fact, and almost kind of funny, was on a '05+ Avalon board where potential buyers would test drive multiples of the same car to "find one without or with the least noticeable lag"

[regfootball]

this is that whole electronic throttle thing again.

I just had the ECU flashed on my 500 last week to cure the hesitation and slow downshifting and it seems to have helped a lot. the car is pretty quick now in a lot of cases. i assume its a similar thing here.

My buddy who used to used a Jetta with an ET said the same thing.

We concurred that the mfrs are dumbing down the throttles on these things so you have to press down ALL THE WAY to get the brains to realize you want gas. Its not a linear application of the throttle pedal anymore. Its compounded by poor tranny programming.

I bet the car lawyers are making them do that to keep folks from overdriving the cars. I like the aggressive GM throttle linkages to a degree. Why can't it just be nice and linear all the way through the pedal with predictable and immediate shifting?

on star should download ECU updates as they occur and automatically update engine programming on cars. they should figger out how to make that possible.

Edited October 17, 2006 by regfootball

[pow]

this is that whole electronic throttle thing again.

I just had the ECU flashed on my 500 last week to cure the hesitation and slow downshifting and it seems to have helped a lot.  the car is pretty quick now in a lot of cases.  i assume its a similar thing here.

My buddy who used to used a Jetta with an ET said the same thing.

We concurred that the mfrs are dumbing down the throttles on these things so you have to press down ALL THE WAY to get the brains to realize you want gas.  Its not a linear application of the throttle pedal anymore.  Its compounded by poor tranny programming.

I bet the car lawyers are making them do that to keep folks from overdriving the cars.  I like the aggressive GM throttle linkages to a degree.  Why can't it just be nice and linear all the way through the pedal with predictable and immediate shifting?

on star should download ECU updates as they occur and automatically update engine programming on cars.  they should figger out how to make that possible.

205840[/snapback]

Agreed. Our Passat's electronic throttle sucks. Yesterday I suddenly needed more acceleration and then didn't; I floored it and relased... nothing happened, no downshift, not even any change in throttle.

[Flybrian]

Automakers need to learn that sometimes 'innovations' just aren't. I don't think a Camry needs electronic throttle control because if Mercedes can't do it perfectly for a $60-90k car, then why should I have any confidence that Toyota can even get by with it in a $20k car.

[csaba1218]

Automakers need to learn that sometimes 'innovations' just aren't. I don't think a Camry needs electronic throttle control because if Mercedes can't do it perfectly for a $60-90k car, then why should I have any confidence that Toyota can even get by with it in a $20k car.

205848[/snapback]

Exactly the electronic throttle control is a pain in the ass you just cant modulate the throttle like you should be able to, and what the hell is the point why would you ever need to take something that is simple like a cable and replace it with an over complicated system that will probably bite you in the ass and wallet sooner rather than later.

[Cory Wolfe]

Gotta love my Millenia. It may not pack alot of power, but its always there when I need it. Damn Toyotas, Hondas and VWs.

[csaba1218]

Gotta love my Millenia. It may not pack alot of power, but its always there when I need it. Damn Toyotas, Hondas and VWs.

205874[/snapback]

Umm your precious mazdas just like a lot of new cars have ETC.at least i know the mazda 3 does .

[aaaantoine]

This kinda reminds me of a quirk in my Cobalt's throttle.

If you apply light throttle, it won't downshift at all (from 4th, I think). If you apply just a little more throttile, it downshifts to 1st gear, and the car jumps forward from this newfound power. So I pretty much have to go mid-throttle off the line or otherwise I barely accelerate at all.

It's not a natural response, but at least it's somewhat predictable.

[Drew Dowdell]

are you sure it's dropping all the way from 4th to 1st?

[aaaantoine]

Nah, it's probably dropping to 2nd.

Honestly all I can ever really see and hear is the RPM, compared to my speed, and make a semi-educated guess.

[siegen]

Nah, it's probably dropping to 2nd.

Honestly all I can ever really see and hear is the RPM, compared to my speed, and make a semi-educated guess.

205901[/snapback]

I hate automatic transmissions. I remember the one in my last Buick... the last auto I've ever owned (or every will if I have anything to say about it). I also hate not having a tach! That's almost as bad as not having a speedo.

[Drew Dowdell]

I hate automatic transmissions. I remember the one in my last Buick... the last auto I've ever owned (or every will if I have anything to say about it). I also hate not having a tach! That's almost as bad as not having a speedo.

205903[/snapback]

Do you know how fast you were going son?

No, but my tach was reading 6,100 rpm.

I'll give you warning this time, but next time I catch you doing 25 in a 15, I'm going to ticket you

[Intrepidation]

Toyota: Lurching Forward

205830[/snapback]

I'm glad my Shadow's throttle isn't electronic (at least to my knowledge), and I'm glad the Prizm is a manual (even if it's only 1st, 2nd, and 5th)...and that I learned how to drive manual.

[pow]

Automakers need to learn that sometimes 'innovations' just aren't. I don't think a Camry needs electronic throttle control because if Mercedes can't do it perfectly for a $60-90k car, then why should I have any confidence that Toyota can even get by with it in a $20k car.

205848[/snapback]

BMW did it perfectly with their '01 530i.

[Newbiewar]

Automakers need to learn that sometimes 'innovations' just aren't. I don't think a Camry needs electronic throttle control because if Mercedes can't do it perfectly for a $60-90k car, then why should I have any confidence that Toyota can even get by with it in a $20k car.

205848[/snapback]

all chevys except aveo come with electric throttle for better throttle response... according to our product trainers...

[Paolino]

The LaCrosse has electronic throttle control with the 3800. Haven't heard any complaints. Then again, not sure exactly what it feels like vs. not having electronic throttle control.

Is that why some cars you get a specific response no matter what amount of pressure you put on the gas? Like, my Buick Century, I feel it has like 4 positions... light gas, average gas, moderate gas, heavy gas. I feel there's no difference if I hit the gas pedal 2/3 way down, vs. floored.

[AAS]

all chevys except aveo come with electric throttle for better throttle response... according to our product trainers...

205972[/snapback]

There's a difference between just having electric throttle and having electric throttle with "learning," where the car will learn your driving style and modulate your throttle input based on pedal position, maybe pedal velocity/acceleration. Allthough, I'de assume that a method that took into account pedal velocity/acceleration would be able to differentiate between normal driving conditions and those instances that demand instant throttle/transmission response.

[Ravenfreak13]

Haha dumb toyotas!

How stupid can you be to create something like that...What if someone has to accelerate quickly to avoid an accident and the car doesn't do what it's supposed to...then they die...

CAMRYS ARE DEATH TRAPS!

[loki]

throttle in my 99 monte 3.1L isn't electronic, but it'll stay in 4th down to ~33mph under at least 1/4 pedal but won't shift down to 4th till 40mph... i think that's kinda wierd

yeah, "learning" is fine ... for people that don't know how to modulate the throttle well, or have lost that ability but can still drive.

[ShadowDog]

There's a difference between just having electric throttle and having electric throttle with "learning," where the car will learn your driving style and modulate your throttle input based on pedal position, maybe pedal velocity/acceleration.  Allthough, I'de assume that a method that took into account pedal velocity/acceleration would be able to differentiate between normal driving conditions and those instances that demand instant throttle/transmission response.

205984[/snapback]

The Chevy Optra model line, (Suzuki Forenza/Reno) utilized cable-driven throttle control in '04 with a transmission powertrain system that ran in three modes with various sub-modes called "Fuzzy Logic". This was primarily for economy, normal, and sport characteristics to alter the RPM and shift range based on the input by the driver at the time. It does it fairly well, although there are times when I'm puttering along at 50 km/h on the street and suddenly need to give it some gas for a spot to change lanes. Usually when it's cold, the car seems like it's thinking for a split second, "You want to merge, well then let's give you 3rd gea...NAW! Let's giver' 2nd!" Then it's BANG-SURGE!

Only but a couple of times, you would hope the car would give you 2nd, but it chooses to give you about two seconds of 3rd before it punches down.

From '05 they stayed with Fuzzy Logic, but went with electronic throttle control, though I don't have a flippin' clue why. A four-banger is a four-banger, where the throttle response really doesn't make any useful difference.

What annoys me are the automo-useless people thinking that this "learning" the Fuzzy Logic does is permanent, so when they have a performance problem, they think that erasing the computer will fix it. Fuzzy Logic remains 'on-the-fly' during the conditions of driving at that particular moment. It's not that it 'learns' anything, but actually adapts to demands of driver input.

If a Korean company with a German-designed ZF transmission can figure it out for a sub-$15,000 car, why the hell can't Toyota?

GaduH?!

[capriceman]

Well my fathers 02 sierra has ET and all it really does is make off the line smoother and a less rocky ride. My 01 silverado had cable throttle and it was rather rough and kinda rocky. But GM has done good with ET they keep it simple not Sophisticated with memory crap.

Edited October 18, 2006 by capriceman

[Cory Wolfe]

Umm your precious mazdas just like a lot of new cars have ETC.at least i know the mazda 3 does .

205880[/snapback]

I never said whether it had it or not. I said I didn't have those problems. Which I don't.

[aaaantoine]

all chevys except aveo come with electric throttle for better throttle response... according to our product trainers...

205972[/snapback]

That would explain why the pedal doesn't move when the cruise control is on...

[Flybrian]

Well, then that makes this extra sad for Toyota.

[andy82471]

I drove an 06 Camry as a rental and the squeaks and rattle were terrible. It was like being in a torture chamber. Compare to that , the 05 Malibu I drove ( also a rental ) almost a year ago had no squeak or rattle and was actually a pleasure to drive. You really have to wonder how TOYOTA gets away with it when the domestics constantly gets hammered for even the slightest flaw.

[Flybrian]

I drove an 06 Camry as a rental and the squeaks and rattle were terrible.

206170[/snapback]

I stand by my apparent lone nutjob belief that the 2002-06 Camry is the signle worst car recently made in terms of disappointment.

[Mike The Canadian]

I cant believe the people posting comments

"Toyota's recalls aren't an indication of slipping quality. They're just being retroactive with their commitment to deliver perfect products. Only Toyota cares about their customers that much.

They are also the only car company doing anything to help save the environment from peak oil and global warming"

[Mike The Canadian]

I cant believe the people posting comments

"Toyota's recalls aren't an indication of slipping quality. They're just being retroactive with their commitment to deliver perfect products. Only Toyota cares about their customers that much.

They are also the only car company doing anything to help save the environment from peak oil and global warming"

[siegen]

I cant believe the people posting comments

"Toyota's recalls aren't an indication of slipping quality. They're just being retroactive with their commitment to deliver perfect products. Only Toyota cares about their customers that much.

They are also the only car company doing anything to help save the environment from peak oil and global warming"

206591[/snapback]

But it's true. That's what Toyota told us and they never lie.

[ServiceAdvisor]

I stand by my apparent lone nutjob belief that the 2002-06 Camry is the signle worst car recently made in terms of disappointment.

206270[/snapback]

I don't know, the old Old's Aurora has got to be the biggest disappointment. If it wasn't the water pump going out it was the load leveling system going bad and it comes into the shop looking a bad version of a 60's hot rod with rear end all cranked up in the air. Then when you drain your checking account to fix it you have to let it sit in your driveway because it hasn't got the trade value of a Yugo so you can get rid of it. This car made a lot of loyal GM customer's switch brand's

[Regalguy01]

I cant believe the people posting comments

"Toyota's recalls aren't an indication of slipping quality. They're just being retroactive with their commitment to deliver perfect products. Only Toyota cares about their customers that much.

They are also the only car company doing anything to help save the environment from peak oil and global warming"

206591[/snapback]

My wifes ES, which I lovingly refer to as her 'camry dolled up for prom night' is one of the worst culprits of this 'jerking' from the electronic throttle. It scared her so much in fact that she was afraid to drive it for 4 days, until I had time to take it by the Lexus dealer. Once they issued the 'fix' via a Toyota service bulletin(read: service bulletin, not a recall for such a dangerous, widespread problem; wasn't that caring?) I was good to go right? Wrong, the problem was mitigated a bit by the fix, but still to this day not fully corrected.

I don't know, the old Old's Aurora has got to be the biggest disappointment. If it wasn't the water pump going out it was the load leveling system going bad and it comes into the shop looking a bad version of a 60's hot rod with rear end all cranked up in the air. Then when you drain your checking account to fix it you have to let it sit in your driveway because it hasn't got the trade value of a Yugo so you can get rid of it. This car made a lot of loyal GM customer's switch brand's

Are you kidding? The Aurora, when introduced in 94', was the talk of the automotive world! Its platform was praised as a ''paragon of structural rigidity''. Its looks were stunning for the time. I have never owned one, so I cannot attest to the reliability of the auto, but when has that ever been tied to resale value? Sure things like, # whorred out to fleets, availability on the used market, public demand/desirability are just a few of the factors, but not reliability. If that were the case, Mercedes wouldn't be able to GIVE its cars away. They have been plagued with reliability issues(especially electronics) across their product line for the past 5 years at least. But the guy at the dealer still demands top dollar for the benz so go figure!

Toyota: Lurching Forward

So True!!!

[ServiceAdvisor]

You can't compare Mercedez to GM. That's like comparing a Jaguar to a Kia. People will buy Mercedez for the prestige regardless of how reliable it is and a Mercedez owner can afford to fix his car numerous times and money not be an issue. The Olds Aurora was the text book definition of "Looks don't get you down the road!". It may have looked good at the time of introduction, but that car was a hunk of junk! As far as resale these are just as bad as every other GM car, you can't give it away. I should know, I tried taking 3 to the big auto auction in St. Louis and had to bring them back because no one wanted them.

[Croc]

I don't know, the old Old's Aurora has got to be the biggest disappointment. If it wasn't the water pump going out it was the load leveling system going bad and it comes into the shop looking a bad version of a 60's hot rod with rear end all cranked up in the air. Then when you drain your checking account to fix it you have to let it sit in your driveway because it hasn't got the trade value of a Yugo so you can get rid of it. This car made a lot of loyal GM customer's switch brand's

206660[/snapback]

You can't compare Mercedez to GM. That's like comparing a Jaguar to a Kia. People will buy Mercedez for the prestige regardless of how reliable it is and a Mercedez owner can afford to fix his car numerous times and money not be an issue. The Olds Aurora was the text book definition of "Looks don't get you down the road!". It may have looked good at the time of introduction, but that car was a hunk of junk! As far as resale these are just as bad as every other GM car, you can't give it away. I should know, I tried taking 3 to the big auto auction in St. Louis and had to bring them back because no one wanted them.

206787[/snapback]

[Drew Dowdell]

You can't compare Mercedez to GM. That's like comparing a Jaguar to a Kia. People will buy Mercedez for the prestige regardless of how reliable it is and a Mercedez owner can afford to fix his car numerous times and money not be an issue. The Olds Aurora was the text book definition of "Looks don't get you down the road!". It may have looked good at the time of introduction, but that car was a hunk of junk! As far as resale these are just as bad as every other GM car, you can't give it away. I should know, I tried taking 3 to the big auto auction in St. Louis and had to bring them back because no one wanted them.

206787[/snapback]

I know a guy in west central Florida that might be interested.

You may be right on resale, but the owners that did buy them are fiercely loyal to their Auroras. My mother has a generation 2 Aurora with now 60k miles or so. She literally doesn't know where to go from her Aurora when the time comes. She doesn't want the Lucerne and doesn't want to spend the money for an STS.

She really just wants another Aurora. Why? Because it's been very reliable for her, she likes the luxury features, she likes the understated looks, she liked it's low cost for the features. Her main gripes are that Walmart never has her oil filter in stock and she's been complaining about vibrations on the highway...forgetting that she still has her first set of tires.

You've only been posting here for the last day. So far, if this were SlashDot.Org, I would mod every single one of your posts <-1 Troll>. If your sole purpose here is to universally bash GM and blindly praise Imports, at least give us the courtesy of letting us know so we can all block your posts.

[Bizz]

ive driven ETC equipped C5s, C6s and a couple of 04+GPs. in all of them, it was transparent. i hear the same from truck owners. but this new aura is a different story. now that ive adjusted to it, its ok. i wish i knew why GM can make it work flawless in some vehicles but not others.

at least its not a camry.

[ponchoman49]

I would take a 1995 first year Aurora over the butt ugly, gutless 4 cylinder deathtrap Camry any day of the year. Sure they have issues too but it was never in the acceleration or transmission shifting department. What good is a car that can't get out of it's own way when you need it to. All this talk of how popular the Camry is and that GM's are worthless junk really cracks me up. Sort of reminds me of Hitler. Sure the vast majority of Germans followed him but did that make them right? I think not!!!!!!

Edited October 20, 2006 by ponchoman49

[toyoguy]

My wifes ES, which I lovingly refer to as her 'camry dolled up for prom night' is one of the worst culprits of this 'jerking' from the electronic throttle.

206745[/snapback]

So, why do you still own this car?

[grandmarquis]

So, why do you still own this car?

206842[/snapback]

probably can't get anything for it.

[siegen]

So, why do you still own this car?

206842[/snapback]

I'm guessing his wife probably likes it, and it doesn't bug her.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm guessing his wife probably likes it, and it doesn't bug her.

206854[/snapback]

wouldn't drive it for 4 days?

[Angry Dad]

I can understand adaptable software for transmission feel and wear along with adapts for O2 sensors in concert with converter aging but to deliberately write software to control throttle is insane. If a customer was to be placed into a situation where a design feature is deliberately sabotaged by Toyota (which this sure as hell is) and placed in jeopardy is a lawyer's dream. Make it simple here, you pull out to pass and the car don't go and these idiots have openly admited they made it that way.

Of course only the collective crackpots on a domestic auto board will see this and Toyota will send out their usual batch of bondo PR to make sure the majority will keep kissing their ass.

[Flybrian]

I don't know, the old Old's Aurora has got to be the biggest disappointment. If it wasn't the water pump going out it was the load leveling system going bad and it comes into the shop looking a bad version of a 60's hot rod with rear end all cranked up in the air. Then when you drain your checking account to fix it you have to let it sit in your driveway because it hasn't got the trade value of a Yugo so you can get rid of it. This car made a lot of loyal GM customer's switch brand's

206660[/snapback]

I had a well-thought-out response, but I lost it. Therefore, you're stupidity speaks for itself.

[ServiceAdvisor]

I had a well-thought-out response, but I lost it. Therefore, you're stupidity speaks for itself.

207078[/snapback]

Do you work for GM, because that would explain the way you think.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Do you work for GM, because that would explain the way you think.

207270[/snapback]

I've got seven problems and you're five of them.