GM Death Watch 95: Dear John

[Guest buickman]

From www.thetruthaboutcars.com

According to the highly credible “Ford and GM set to merge” journalists over at Automotive News, The General has agreed to pay bankrupt parts supplier Delphi’s remaining union workers an unspecified amount of money for an unspecified amount of time to avoid a planet-killing strike. Yes, it’s The Mother of All Extortion Pay-Offs– providing you don’t count that huge pile of money GM’s already agreed to pay twenty thousand not-so-dearly departed members of the United Auto Workers (UAW) who labored on behalf of Delphi. And here’s the funny part: that’s the good news.

As always, you gotta read the fine print. As part of this deal, Delphi will renegotiate or dump 5,472 unprofitable GM parts contracts. Let’s be clear: by “renegotiate” I mean Delphi got GM to lock-in the contracts the parts maker wants to keep, at a price that will earn them cash money. So there’ll be no more of that margin squeezing routine GM’s been using to torture its other parts suppliers. So Delphi can now afford to pay the base salaries of those UAW employeees that GM didn’t pay to leave, whose paychecks GM is about to top up so they don’t go on strike and kill GM. So it’s win, win, lose. The General's cash flow takes another massive hit and everyone goes back to the business of pretending the next group of vehicles down the line will pay for, well, everything.

Let's get to the really exciting stuff: the looming proxy fight between investor Kirk “The Las Vegas Lion” Kerkorian and GM CEO "Red Ink Rick" Wagoner. The way the Institute of Shareholder Services (ISS) sees it, Kirk stooge Jerry York’s recent resignation from GM’s Board of Bystanders was the first step in his any-day-now nonagenarian boss’s plan to stir up a shareholder’s revolt. For those of us who can’t tell a rabid dog when they see one buying 9.9 percent of the world’s largest automaker, the ISS took a look at York’s resignation and decided them’s fightin’ words!

To paraphrase the document in question, things suck at GM and they might not get any better. And then… “But frankly, to get to the crux of the matter, I have not found an environment in the board room that is very receptive to probing much beyond the materials provided by management (and too often, at least in my experience, materials are not sent to the board ahead of time to allow study prior to board discussion).” Well now we know. GM’s Board of Bystanders is a board of bystanders who take Rabid Rick Wagoner’s assurances at face value and don’t mind if those assurances aren’t in writing, or, if they are, that they arrive too late to read and digest. Who’d a thunk it?

Only anyone who’s been watching The General’s market share sink like a stone thrown into a deep, dark, well. Mr. York’s description of GM’s most excellent rubber stampers shouldn’t come as any surprise to readers of this series, nor should York’s terse description of GM’s chances. York’s letter adds GM’s negative market share with its negative cash flow to come to a negative conclusion: “I have grave reservations concerning the ability of the company’s current business model to successfully compete in the marketplace with those of the Asian producers." Join the club.

Of course, Jerry's in Kirk's gang. Which makes his final parting words especially ironic: “I will shortly make arrangements to return the confidential company materials in my possession to the Corporate Secretary’s office.” This from the board member who swore to the SEC that he won’t reveal inside information to any third party, then jets off to France to meet with Nissan Prez Carlos Ghosn to offer him the keys to the GM castle on behalf of The General’s largest stockholder and chief boardroom protagonist. Does anyone seriously think Mr. York didn’t use his time in GM’s inner sanctum to gather-up enough damning evidence of management incompetence to convince outside investors to decapitate the capo di tutti capo?

Like I said, this is going to get ugly. And so it should. It’s hard to believe that the man who lost GM more than a dollar per person on planet earth and prestiged GM’s amazing shrinking market share is still large and in charge over at The General’s tower of power. The battle for control of GM is a yin yang thang– only there isn’t any yin. In fact, everyone who wields power in this sad saga of missed opportunity and unbridled greed is their own evil triplet; Kirk Kerkorian, Rick Wagoner and union boss Ron Gettelfinger are all as bad as each other.

The conflict between these three forces will eventually reveal the exact nature of their pernicious perfidy– at least to us. For them, it’ll be last man standing. Whoever wins will oversee a kingdom of sand, washed flat by an tide that’s been forty years in the making.

[Guest buickman]

If G Richard would only listen, like he claims to be willing to do on the GM Corporate website, everyone would win. Special K would see his coveted cash, Rick would be able to refill the Black Ink pen, and Gettlefinger could go back to his constituency with security. These players would only be the tip, virtually an entire nation would rise economically through a Return to Greatness.

the voice...

Edited October 12, 2006 by buickman

[Northstar]

What happens when the UAW contract is up in less than a year and the workers no long cost as much to pay? Then Delphi doesn't have to charge as much to make money...

[razoredge]

Yea, the crap at the top is a big mess.........and we worry and complain about the product, which only reveils the mess at the top. .... not cures it

[supermoto]

If G Richard would only listen, like he claims to be willing to do on the GM Corporate website, everyone would win. Special K would see his coveted cash, Rick would be able to refill the Black Ink pen, and Gettlefinger could go back to his constituency with security. These players would only be the tip, virtually an entire nation would rise economically through a Return to Greatness.

the voice...

204093[/snapback]

He's up to death watch 95 and GM is gaining strength. When is that loser Farago going to realize he knows less about running gM than he accuses Wagoner of.

Buickman and him are two insane birds of a feather.

[regfootball]

Farago, GFY. And then go work at BK like you are qualified for.

[toyoguy]

I'm glad someone like Fargo tells it exactly the way it is.

The GMT-900 SUV's have run out of steam exactly as Fargo predicted they would. This is based on September sales and a ~175day supply on the Tahoe.

Coincidently, when GMT900 SUV sales drop off GM begins selling GMT-900 trucks, hence why GM is merely limping along for now.

According to Fargo's future predictions in one year the GMT-900 trucks will be in the same state as the GMT-900 SUV's are now, that is selling poorly.

And what does GM have planned from there? Very little. Is this a suprise?

Nope, Lutz thought the GMT-900's would sell as well as the previous model. He was wrong.

Lutz now thinks gas should be taxed to European levels. He is an idiot w/o the GMT900 GM would instantly die.

Lutz thought hybrids are waste and Toyota loses money on them.

He is wrong here.

Lutz will only build hybrids for image perception and nothing else.

So basically anyone who buys a GM hybrid is an idiot. Brilliant insult your own customers.

Lutz is wrong about everything. The fact that he still has a job, proves GM has zero solutions to their problems, and GM's management is basically worthless. Until GM"s managment is replaced, GM will continue struggling or GM gets lucky and gas prices go down significantly.

[GEESIXER]

I'm glad someone like Fargo tells it exactly the way it is.

Coincidently, when GMT900 SUV sales drop off GM begins selling GMT-900 trucks, hence why GM is merely limping along for now.

According to Fargo's future predictions in one year the GMT-900 trucks will be in the same state as the GMT-900 SUV's are now, that is selling poorly.

And what does GM have planned from there?  Very little.  Is this a suprise?

204320[/snapback]

I am sure i speak for everyone when I say...

SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 13, 2006 by GEESIXER

[Mr.Krinkle]

when did you teach your ass how to type? opinions are one thing but honestly

how do you get from a to b on this one. im thinking toyota only builds hybrids for reputation and it seems to be working wonders for them. so whos the idiot?

Lutz will only build hybrids for image perception and nothing else.

So basically anyone who buys a GM hybrid is an idiot. Brilliant insult your own customers

see GM builds hybrid buses, then lets see whats what. honestly, for the better good, a mass trans system that hauls 50-60-70? people at once or a 4 seat prius.

whats truly better for the environment if anyone is that concerned?

farago writes these things like he has a pole up his ass. hes cranky and bitter, and only finds the negative or cons. he never acknowledges the good that exists. albeit there might not be tons of it but hes the most guilty of being shortsided, as if vol. 95 in a series called deathwatch doesnt give it away. talk about standing over someones shoulder.

im guessing he took a large hit when the stocks tumbled, like many others and it cant be fixed soon enough.

he seems unfamiliar with compromise. the happy medium that exists for most

deals and the aliance that clearly wasnt in any one but carlos and nissans best

interest has nothing to say. hes siding with capt kirk for some unknown

reason and continues to libel wagonner and extol kirkorian as if hes the saint who will save gm.

how can this even remotely beging to be described as objective journalism.

and if its his opinions, i think they stink but hes certainly entitled to them.

but this i dont understand:

Like I said, this is going to get ugly. And so it should.

why should it?

Edited October 13, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm glad someone like Fargo tells it exactly the way it is in my reality

edited for clarity

The GMT-900 SUV's have run out of steam exactly as Fargo predicted they would.  This is based on September sales and a ~175day supply on the Tahoe.

The 900s can sell at lower levels and still maintain profitability. Unfortunately for you they are still selling at a good clip and are only down compared to fire sale levels.

Coincidently, when GMT900 SUV sales drop off GM begins selling GMT-900 trucks, hence why GM is merely limping along for now.

According to Fargo's future predictions in one year the GMT-900 trucks will be in the same state as the GMT-900 SUV's are now, that is selling poorly.

Truck sales tend to be much more stable than SUV sales. Trucks are closer to the necessity side of the spectrum for many of their buyers.

And what does GM have planned from there?  Very little.  Is this a suprise?

Aura hybrid

Outlook, Enclave, Acadia

Malibu

Camero

CTS

Updated SRX and STS

Astra

Majorly upgraded Equinox and Torrent

New Vue

HHR, already selling the same or better than the PT, adding the SS model

So, yeah... nothing really coming down the pike.

Nope, Lutz thought the GMT-900's would sell as well as the previous model.  He was wrong.

Only if you are comparing to fire sale levels.

Lutz now thinks gas should be taxed to European levels.  He is an idiot w/o the GMT900 GM would instantly die.

But the remaining full size SUV sales would favor the GMT-900 SUVs because they're the only fullsizers with hybrid and E85 options.

GM's biggest problems would be making enough Aveos, Cobalt, HHRs, Malibus, Vues, Equinoxes, Torrents, and Aura Hybrids to satify demand..... not exactly a bad position to be in. Small car incentives would disappear.

Lutz thought hybrids are waste and Toyota loses money on them. 

He is wrong here.

Lutz will only build hybrids for image perception and nothing else.

So basically anyone who buys a GM hybrid is an idiot.  Brilliant insult your own customers. 

Lutz is somewhat correct. Hybrids on smaller vehicles help the environment less than hybrids on larger vehicles. That's why GM started with busses and worked their way down. Toyota's plan of attack was the one that was ass backwards. You can't really blame Toyota though, they don't have experience building hybrids for 90 years like GM does.. By the time GM got to the Aura, they found a way to make a less expensive hybrid then their competition. Additionally, GM is getting ready to produce Hydrogen vehicles. They've already supplied some to the DoD.

Lutz is wrong about everything. 

So are you. Broad sweeping generalizations are fun aren't they?

The fact that he still has a job, proves GM has zero solutions to their problems,

and GM's management is basically worthless.  Until GM"s managment is replaced, GM will continue struggling or GM gets lucky and gas prices go down significantly.

204320[/snapback]

What are you? Buickman version 2.0?

Gas prices are already down substantially.

Cobalt is currently profitable for them.

The updated cars <Thetas, STS, SRX> plus the interesting sound of the Malibu and what we already know of the '08 CTS... yeah, I wouldn't count GM out yet.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[zete]

If the SUVs are selling more slowly, then that market is probably shrinking -- which is what Lutz predicted. But what's going to happen to the competitors with trucks that aren't as nice, get worse mileage, aren't as well built, and, as of next year, can't be had with a hybrid option? Toyo is already complaining that their new truck -- not even out yet -- is too big. I guess they're figuring it'll bomb in the market and are just getting the excuses ready for that eventuality.

All this "GM deathwatch" crap is the same thing I heard 10 years ago with the Apple Deathwatch. And as we all know Apple simply disappeared. Their marketshare kept shrinking and they started to just bleed money. Nothing saved them. It was really too bad. All that great history gone.

[toyoguy]

The 900s can sell at lower levels and still maintain profitability. Unfortunately for you they are still selling at a good clip and are only down compared to fire sale levels.

Selling to dealerships, theyre twice the # of Tahoes on dealer lots than there should be.

And I'm not sure how this is supposed to be unfortunate for me.

Lutz is somewhat correct. Hybrids on smaller vehicles help the environment less than hybrids on larger vehicles. That's why GM started with busses and worked their way down. Toyota's plan of attack was the one that was ass backwards. You can't really blame Toyota though..By the time GM got to the Aura, they found a way to make a less expensive hybrid then their competition. 

204404[/snapback]

I disagree Toyota's strategy works better, in the marketplace Toyota gets all the credit, the Aura hybrid isn't on sale yet. That and nobody wants a me-too hybrid.

GM is far too late to the game.

If GM's hybrids are so superior, the German's eagerness to embrace Blutec should indicate DCX and BMW aren't all that confident in their co-developed design.

Additionally, GM is getting ready to produce Hydrogen vehicles. They've already supplied some to the DoD.

204404[/snapback]

You do realize hydrogen is at least 20yrs away. That's too far in the future to matter now.

So are you.  Broad sweeping generalizations are fun aren't they?

What are you? Buickman version 2.0?

204404[/snapback]

This is a Fargo article, so I'm a Fargo2.0 if anything. I believe GM's managment is terrible and I'm not the only one. The fact that GM is constantly losing ground to rivals nearly proves my assertion.

Gas prices are already down substantially.

204404[/snapback]

Doesn't make its price cheap or permanent.

Edited October 13, 2006 by toyoguy

[enzl]

Gm's US sales are down 400,000 units from last year's pace. Current news from europe isn't great either.

September sales dropped off the map last year, making comparisons between this year and last almost meaningless.

Farago isn't entirely right, but, unfortunately, he's not that far off. Factor in the inevitable fight with Kekorian and GM's 'recovery' may be imperiled.

[Mr.Krinkle]

itd be a shame if it was a bad deal that fell GM. or contract negotiations or board room antics.

the problem with farago he barks at every press release. theres no set time for death watch series, its when hes bored and hears about something that happened.

looking for a scapegoat is his job, the current management will of course bare the brunt but are responsible for making the turnaround work no matter what.

why they wound up with basically an 11 month sales year this year is an interesting move.

i also happen to think the next model year cars and upcoming entries will be enough to at least stop the market share bleed and maybe even increase it

in the coming years. probably by the time the next ceo takes charge.

kekorkian will hopefully not sabotage it from the inside with bs.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[Drew Dowdell]

Selling to dealerships, there are twice the # of Tahoes on dealer lots than there should be.

2006 2005 % Chg per S/D 2006 2005 %Chg

Tahoe 10,146 9,151 6.6 120,723 123,202 -2.0

yeah, huge tank there....

And I'm not sure how this is supposed to be unfortunate for me.

because you take joy in seeing GM fail.

I disagree Toyota's strategy works better, in the marketplace Toyota gets all the credit, the Aura hybrid isn't on sale yet.  That and nobody wants a me-too hybrid. 

GM is far too late to the game.

Toyota's hybrid strategy, much like their EPA estimates, is much better on paper. Sure it's great for PR, but GM's strategy has a much more favorable environmental impact, much like GM's EPA estimates. Aura brings the hybrid much more mainstream. The Vue hybrid does a better job environmentally than the Highlander and does it for cheaper. So just like the Viper that on paper should kick the Z06's ass, in the real world, the Z06 pwnes it.

The Hybrid game isn't over... simply because Toyota hasn't entered the area where the points count the most.

If GM's hybrids are so superior, the German's eagerness to embrace Blutec should indicate DCX and BMW aren't all that confident in their co-developed design.

You do realize hydrogen is at least 20yrs away.  That's too far in the future to matter now.

What kind of logic dysfunction is that? DCX's and BMW's eagerness to embrace Blutec is simply a comfort move. They've been selling diesels for years. They're good at it. It's what they do. I, for one, welcome any advances in fuel economy and environmental impact. Let me flip the question, why hasn't Toyota pursued advanced diesel technology like GM, Honda, DCX, VW, and BMW have?

GM delivered hydrogen Equinoxes to the DoD in Washington DC and to end users in NYC and LA. Delivered..... as in... on the road.

This is a Fargo article, so I'm a Fargo2.0 if anything. 

I'm not Kim Il Jong, I'm Mahmoud Ahmadinejad!

I believe GM's managment is terrible and I'm not the only one.  The fact that GM is constantly losing ground to rivals nearly proves my assertion.

GM is doing substantially, measurably, better. The market share losses are slowing, profitability is returning, quality is improving dramatically. Are they done yet? No, but Japan has once again woken a sleeping giant.

Doesn't make its price cheap or permanent.

204414[/snapback]

which is why it is important to have awesome vehicles at both end of the fuel economy spectrum. Cobalt, HHR, Solstice, Sky are all great, higher mileage vehicles, and sell well, with little to no incentives. The Vette, GMT-900s, V-series are all great lower MPG vehicles.

Edited October 13, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[evok]

Really why do you guys listen or care what these talking heads have to say? They have a voice because of the internet. Don't kid yourself that anyone of value in the industry reads these guys as fact or seeks their opnion. If you don't like what they have to say, don't comment and link to their site. You know why, you eventually will give them money because of their site traffic.

Fargo is a writer for Rides and Variety (never heard of it, I wonder if it is related to MPH?), Lieberman is a brewmaster, Mehta is a student etc.

They are talking heads and no different than comedian Al Frankin for Air America, ex-KC Chiefs radio announcer Rush Rimbaugh, or my dad was a VP for GM but I used to sell billboard space for auto ads and now I am an auto guru Peter "Auto Extremist" Delorenzo.

They write an internet blog and who cares. No one with any insight into the business will take anything from TTAC seriously. They have no credibility when it comes to the analytical. None, but they do make for an entertaining read if nothing else. They are amusement and nothing more.

Again, if you don't like it, don't comment or more importantly don't link to their site.

Their resume as it appears on TTAC. No where do I see I worked in (fill in blank auto company) for 15 years as a director for (finance, product planning etc), graduated with and MBA, MS from a Big Name School, etc. Big deal, the only common denomiator is "I like cars".

Enjoy

Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the founding editor of www.thetruthaboutcars.com. He's a freelance automotive journalist whose reviews and rants are published by RIDES and Variety magazine and www.jalopnik.com.

Jonny Lieberman

Jonny Lieberman is a Los Angeles-based writer and award-winning home brewer. After receiving a liberal arts degree from Sonoma State University, Lieberman rode the dotcom boom from San Francisco to New York City as a technical trainer and software consultant. When the boom went bust, he returned to LA to partner the now defunct DiannePruesse gallery in Chinatown. Lieberman caught the car writing bug when Portland's "Too Much Coffee Man" magazine asked him to explain the Japanese tuner craze.

Sajeev Mehta

Sajeev Mehta wears the comment "you are completely obsessed with cars" as a badge of honor. His higher education featured an automotive twist: Mechanical Engineering, Fine Art, Industrial Design and Operations Management. These days, if Sajeev's not studying for his MBA there's a good chance he's restoring, modifying or racing one of his obscure Hot Rods somewhere in the Lone Star State.

Frank Williams

Frank Williams is a retired military officer and congenital smartass. He currently works as an IT strategist for the State of Georgia, but still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up. His wife has given up trying to count the cars he's owned over the years. She just wishes he'd make up his mind.

Jay Shoemaker

Jay Shoemaker is the CEO of Francis Coppola's food, wine and resort companies based in the Napa Valley. Shoemaker's passions include his Chinese wife, cameras, computers and his Chihuahua. Shoemaker's alliteratively-consistent interest in cars has led to his one vice: buying them. At last count, 117 mostly-German vehicles have passed through his expert hands (he only keeps four or five at a time). Shoemaker favors luxury high-performance cars that don't distract or annoy him.

Edited October 14, 2006 by evok

[Guest buickman]

Really why do you guys listen or care what these talking heads have to say?  They have a voice because of the internet.  Don't kid yourself that anyone of value in the industry reads these guys as fact or seeks their opnion.  If you don't like what they have to say, don't comment and link to their site.  You know why, you eventually will give them money because of their site traffic.

Fargo is a writer for Rides and Variety (never heard of it, I wonder if it is related to MPH?), Lieberman is a brewmaster, Mehta is a student etc. 

They are talking heads and no different than comedian Al Frankin for Air America,  ex-KC Chiefs radio announcer Rush Rimbaugh, or my dad was a VP for GM but I used to sell billboard space for auto ads and now I am an auto guru Peter "Auto Extremist" Delorenzo.

They write an internet blog and who cares.  No one with any insight into the business will take anything from TTAC seriously.  They have no credibility when it comes to the analytical.  None, but they do make for an entertaining read if nothing else.  They are amusement and nothing more.

Again, if you don't like it, don't comment or more importantly don't link to their site.

Their resume as it appears on TTAC.  No where do I see I worked in (fill in blank auto company) for 15 years as a director for (finance, product planning etc), graduated with and MBA, MS from a Big Name School, etc.  Big deal, the only common denomiator is "I like cars".

Enjoy

Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the founding editor of www.thetruthaboutcars.com. He's a freelance automotive journalist whose reviews and rants are published by RIDES and Variety magazine and www.jalopnik.com.

Jonny Lieberman

Jonny Lieberman is a Los Angeles-based writer and award-winning home brewer. After receiving a liberal arts degree from Sonoma State University, Lieberman rode the dotcom boom from San Francisco to New York City as a technical trainer and software consultant. When the boom went bust, he returned to LA to partner the now defunct DiannePruesse gallery in Chinatown. Lieberman caught the car writing bug when Portland's "Too Much Coffee Man" magazine asked him to explain the Japanese tuner craze.

Sajeev Mehta

Sajeev Mehta wears the comment "you are completely obsessed with cars" as a badge of honor. His higher education featured an automotive twist: Mechanical Engineering, Fine Art, Industrial Design and Operations Management. These days, if Sajeev's not studying for his MBA there's a good chance he's restoring, modifying or racing one of his obscure Hot Rods somewhere in the Lone Star State.

Frank Williams

Frank Williams is a retired military officer and congenital smartass.  He currently works as an IT strategist for the State of Georgia, but still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up. His wife has given up trying to count the cars he's owned over the years. She just wishes he'd make up his mind.

Jay Shoemaker

Jay Shoemaker is the CEO of Francis Coppola's food, wine and resort companies based in the Napa Valley. Shoemaker's passions include his Chinese wife, cameras, computers and his Chihuahua. Shoemaker's alliteratively-consistent interest in cars has led to his one vice: buying them. At last count, 117 mostly-German vehicles have passed through his expert hands (he only keeps four or five at a time). Shoemaker favors luxury high-performance cars that don't distract or annoy him.

204465[/snapback]

You sure have access to mounds of information. The only difficulty I see is that what you wrote about me in the past tended to be off the mark. Therefore I must question to what degree your analysis of TTAC personnel is accurate.

the voice...

[GEESIXER]

I almost think the comment about Buickman 2.0 was a bit to harsh on Buickman.

But i did enjoy the bit about broad sweeping generalizations.

that made me laugh out loud

[toyoguy]

2006  2005    % Chg per S/D    2006            2005    %Chg

Tahoe 10,146  9,151            6.6                120,723    123,202    -2.0

yeah, huge tank there....

204464[/snapback]

You're not analyzing 2004, or excess inventory

And GM has at least cut production on the GMT900 SUV's twice the year, thanks to overestimating the market.

because you take joy in seeing GM fail.

204464[/snapback]

GM's failure would be bad for the welfare of the American economy and Americans in general. This is hardly something I'm looking forward to.

GM is quite capable of building worldclass vehicles, but they have severe managment issues obstructing this.

Toyota's hybrid strategy, much like their EPA estimates, is much better on paper.

204464[/snapback]

Outside of Toyota hybrids which Toyota's are doing so poorly in terms of fuel economy when compared to EPA estimates?

Sure it's great for PR, but GM's strategy has a much more favorable environmental impact, much like GM's EPA estimates. Aura brings the hybrid much more mainstream. The Vue hybrid does a better job environmentally than the Highlander and does it for cheaper.

204464[/snapback]

The Camry hybrid brings hybrids to the general market. Comparing the Vue to the Highlander hybrid is pointless since there are no actual figures to compare the two.

So just like the Viper that on paper should kick the Z06's ass, in the real world, the Z06 pwnes it.

204464[/snapback]

On paper the Vette out accelerates, out brakes, and costs less. Don't see how the Viper looks better on paper.

Let me flip the question, why hasn't Toyota pursued advanced diesel technology like GM, Honda, DCX, VW, and BMW have?

204464[/snapback]

Because they are selling hybrids easily. Hybrid technology has plenty of untapped potential. And Toyota has no interest in playing follow the leader. They have found a technology which they have 1000's of patents and can dominate.

GM delivered hydrogen Equinoxes to the DoD in Washington DC and to end users in NYC and LA. Delivered..... as in... on the road.

204464[/snapback]

I meant in the real world, not a marketing gimmick.

GM is doing substantially, measurably, better. The market share losses are slowing, profitability is returning, quality is improving dramatically. Are they done yet?

204464[/snapback]

GM has been consistently posting the same losses every month for the past 3-4yrs.

I've heard for years GM has hit bottom and can't go lower, we'll see soon enough. ANd GM's profitiablity returned last quarter, prior to that they lost some

No, but Japan has once again woken a sleeping giant.

204464[/snapback]

If GM's managment wasn't terrible this would have occured 10yrs ago. Rather than posting $5billion+ loss/quarter

[regfootball]

Really why do you guys listen or care what these talking heads have to say?  They have a voice because of the internet.  Don't kid yourself that anyone of value in the industry reads these guys as fact or seeks their opnion.  If you don't like what they have to say, don't comment and link to their site.  You know why, you eventually will give them money because of their site traffic.

Fargo is a writer for Rides and Variety (never heard of it, I wonder if it is related to MPH?), Lieberman is a brewmaster, Mehta is a student etc. 

They are talking heads and no different than comedian Al Frankin for Air America,  ex-KC Chiefs radio announcer Rush Rimbaugh, or my dad was a VP for GM but I used to sell billboard space for auto ads and now I am an auto guru Peter "Auto Extremist" Delorenzo.

They write an internet blog and who cares.  No one with any insight into the business will take anything from TTAC seriously.  They have no credibility when it comes to the analytical.  None, but they do make for an entertaining read if nothing else.  They are amusement and nothing more.

Again, if you don't like it, don't comment or more importantly don't link to their site.

Their resume as it appears on TTAC.  No where do I see I worked in (fill in blank auto company) for 15 years as a director for (finance, product planning etc), graduated with and MBA, MS from a Big Name School, etc.  Big deal, the only common denomiator is "I like cars".

Enjoy

Robert Farago

Robert Farago is the founding editor of www.thetruthaboutcars.com. He's a freelance automotive journalist whose reviews and rants are published by RIDES and Variety magazine and www.jalopnik.com.

Jonny Lieberman

Jonny Lieberman is a Los Angeles-based writer and award-winning home brewer. After receiving a liberal arts degree from Sonoma State University, Lieberman rode the dotcom boom from San Francisco to New York City as a technical trainer and software consultant. When the boom went bust, he returned to LA to partner the now defunct DiannePruesse gallery in Chinatown. Lieberman caught the car writing bug when Portland's "Too Much Coffee Man" magazine asked him to explain the Japanese tuner craze.

Sajeev Mehta

Sajeev Mehta wears the comment "you are completely obsessed with cars" as a badge of honor. His higher education featured an automotive twist: Mechanical Engineering, Fine Art, Industrial Design and Operations Management. These days, if Sajeev's not studying for his MBA there's a good chance he's restoring, modifying or racing one of his obscure Hot Rods somewhere in the Lone Star State.

Frank Williams

Frank Williams is a retired military officer and congenital smartass.  He currently works as an IT strategist for the State of Georgia, but still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up. His wife has given up trying to count the cars he's owned over the years. She just wishes he'd make up his mind.

Jay Shoemaker

Jay Shoemaker is the CEO of Francis Coppola's food, wine and resort companies based in the Napa Valley. Shoemaker's passions include his Chinese wife, cameras, computers and his Chihuahua. Shoemaker's alliteratively-consistent interest in cars has led to his one vice: buying them. At last count, 117 mostly-German vehicles have passed through his expert hands (he only keeps four or five at a time). Shoemaker favors luxury high-performance cars that don't distract or annoy him.

204465[/snapback]

thank you. I've always fashioned TTAC to be just a blog site. Nothing that amateurish could be considered real journalism. A few 'articles' and reviews are ok, but Farago's bits look and smell like the bottom of my Kohler after a few bowls of my hot and steamy home made chili.

[razoredge]

What Evok said ? Well OK, OK and OK, so thats what or all the above named men are. However, he is 100% wrong in saying nobody will take them seriously. Alot of people will see things similar to how these guys are calling it. Alot of people already have, that is why GM sells fewer and fewer cars every year. Most of those people have probably never read a "blog".

Its also interesting to see Evok wants to discredit people for calling a spade a spade because they lack some degree from a "big name school", almost amusing. If this big school degree proved any form of competency......how did GM get in this position in the first place ? Were the former and current operators high school dropouts ? Yea, thats right, many a moron has achieved degrees over the years. Even idiots can be educated, doesnt mean they know how to use their heads.

Wagoner and Lutz have proved little yet, in fact with alot of the product what they have proven is not positive or worse yet incompetency.

It could be too late now, anyhow.......and thats giving them the benefit of the doubt that they do have a clue

Myself Ill wait until we can see the year end sales totals. I already have an opinion but thats all it is, its only based on a presumption.........and after all, I have no degree and never even made it so far as to drop out of a "big name school".................

tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

aint the global world just so............fascinating ? I think were all going to get a lesson in "modern economics"

[Cory Wolfe]

Let's see... Farago is still off, Buickman is still egotistical and retarded, Toyoguy is still a troll, and Evok is still one of the only posters on here that knows a damn thing. Another pointless thread. Greeeaaaat.

[razoredge]

Actually BV, you are the one trolling in this area, you rarely offer a thought of your own. Evok offers little thought, just his typical, "Im somebody, I know things, the rest of you are uneducated" Yet GM is still troubled.........makes me wonder where Evok is positioned "inside" this mangled up, disasterous, war zone of poor decisions.

Surely your not about to flip flop again. Now suddenly are you prepared to endorse a General Motors vehical ? If Wagoner and Lutz are the answer, how come you still dislike every GM vehical on the market ? You and millions of other N. Americans. Things aint perty and someone better start taking it seriously.

[Guest buickman]

Actually BV, you are the one trolling in this area, you rarely offer a thought of your own. Evok offers little thought, just his typical, "Im somebody, I know things, the rest of you are uneducated" Yet GM is still troubled.........makes me wonder where Evok is positioned "inside" this mangled up, disasterous, war zone of poor decisions.

Surely your not about to flip flop again. Now suddenly are you prepared to endorse a General Motors vehical ? If Wagoner and Lutz are the answer, how come you still dislike every GM vehical on the market ? You and millions of other N. Americans. Things aint perty and someone better start taking it seriously.

204783[/snapback]

Razor,

I am not one to blow smoke, or pass out compliments, as a hobby. However, I would like to express my appreciation for your frankness and balanced thoughts. Although we have more often disagreed than agreed, I have found your most recent opinions and insight to be fair and square.

Buickman

Edited October 14, 2006 by buickman

[Drew Dowdell]

Evok has been known to be extremely critical of the inner workings of GM

[razoredge]

Evok has been known to be extremely critical of the inner workings of GM

204834[/snapback]

This is true, and I realize he is also somewhat bound as to what is appropriate to divulge. I however dont believe, from what Ive seen and heard from Wagoner, Lutz & Laneve that they are much more credible that those Evok discredits for critizing them or their "plan". No matter how good their plan is it wont change perception with product flaws.........if it could at all. Once again let me beat the dead horse and say, even with perfect product and all the promises fullfilled I believe "their gone and aint commin back". Global economics is killing the industrialization of this country, this is the last segment that is holding on and its by a fine thread.........which is still made of cotton.

Its laughable that we feel threatened by Japanese cars anymore. Thats old history. We are now lowered one step further in competing to keep sales from crossing over to the Korean cars. In advertising, the Koreans don't even take Domestics as a challenge. All their advertising is to compete against Toyota and Honda. I believe they feel grabing potential Domestic customers is a givin and the main focus is to get some of Toyotas and Hondas clientel.

Another thing I have yet to hear anyone say about Domestic residual values....The fact that cheap, new, guarenteed Korean car are hard competition on clean, used, one owner Domestics. All we hear about is the "fleet" sales keeping residual values down. While this may be true, I also believe these new, waranteed, inexpensive Korean deals are intensely affecting Domestic residuals

but what do I know ? I just draw assumptions based on years of degreeless bystander observation

Edited October 15, 2006 by razoredge

[Cory Wolfe]

Razor, I offered my opinion on all this BS long long ago. Look it up if you have to.

As far as me and GM... Why the hell do you think I'm here? I am, for all intents and purposes, a GM fan. I dont hate GM and I dont hate all GM vehicles. I'm just critical of them. I have an opinion, mind you, and I dont give anything a free pass if I dont agree with it or dont like it. That does not make me "dislike every GM vehical on the market". I don't and I've never given that impression. Neither do you. I also happen to like other manufacturers and vehicles. As do you. I,however, don't go around bashing any and everything GM, like a troll does. I know of a few trolls, one I mentioned. You aren't one of them, obviously. Understand, now? I do not flip, I do not flop, I most certainly dont flip flop. I haven't changed. Guess you haven't either, even though I try to be tolerant of you. It would be nice if you gave me break for once.

Now.. for Lutz and Wagoner? I questioned Lutz for the longest time. I thought he was overrated and unable to turn GM around. Once I considered that vehicles, like the G6, were already being developed (albeit, as the 6th gen Grand Am) when Lutz arrived and he did the best he could to improve it and that vehicles of his creation, like the Solstice, I gave him credit. He improved the hell out of what he had to work with. If you've ever seen the pic and all the sketches and mocks up of what the G6 would have been (as the Grand Am) if Lutz hadn't arrived, you'd understand too. However, he couldn't change everything, so that of which you complain about is there. Those are the sort of things he couldn't do a damn thing about. It was already designed into the structure and platform. Now, the Solstice, that his creation and it shows. It is a truely competitive car. It's not perfect, but its far better than anything pre-Lutz. Same with the GMT-900s, same with the upcoming Lambdas, same the NG CTS. Lutz knows what he is doing and he's damn good at it. Some people are too impacient to see that.

Now, I repeat: Farago is still obviously wrong, Buickman is still an egotistical retard, Toyoguy is still a troll, and Evok is still one of the only posters on here that knows a goddamn thing about anything. I'll add that I still think this thread and the ones before it are retarded, pointless, meaningless, and full of repeated BS.

[GEESIXER]

WOW... Get down!

I really wish I could write that well, and get my point across so precisely.

that was awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!