RWD DTS Replacement?

[Croc]

So I'm looking on the Holden site and I found some very interesting things:

Exterior | Statesman vs. DTS

Overall Length: 203.1 vs. 207.6

Wheelbase: 118.5 vs. 115.6

Body width: 74.8 vs. 74.8

Trunk Volume: 18.9 vs. 18.8

Interior | Statesman vs. DTS

Legroom Front: 42.2 vs. 42.5

Legroom Rear: 43.2 vs. 42.0

Shoulder Front: 59.1 vs. 60.0

Shoulder Rear: 59.1 vs. 59.2

Headroom Front: 38.8 vs. 38.3

Headroom Rear: 38.0 vs. 38.4

Hiproom Front: 56.7 vs. 57.3

Hiproom Rear: 58.0 vs. 55.7

Note just how close these two are dimensionally??

Statesman has enough creases that it could pass as a Cadillac DTS with only minor revision...

(pictures coming soon)

Edited October 5, 2006 by Croc

[Sixty8panther]

For the last time.... YES absolutely.

Zeta will be a silver bullet for GM in terms of bringing back

the AMERICAN CAR. It's actually a three prong attack:

1. RWD performance sedans

2. FULL size sedans

3. Police/Taxi fleet sales

[Croc]

I'm just shocked at how very comparable and in some ways bigger the Statesman is to the DTS...especially with trunk volume!

[Cadillacfan]

I'm sure that's why Cadillac didn't replace the Deville yet with a totally new car. They were waiting for Zeta. Sigma is already used for three different models and was already stretched for the STS and SRX.

So, they did the only thing they could do. Make the current large Cadillac better.

Just wait. I'm sure we'll hear an announcment on a new large RWD caddy by the end of the decade.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[thegriffon]

Yes, I'm sure you will :AH-HA_wink:

[91z4me]

Yes, I'm sure you will :AH-HA_wink:

201606[/snapback]

08 New York show?

[NOS2006]

Here are a few chops per Croc's request:

Front:

Side:

Rear:

Interior:

Edited October 5, 2006 by NOS2006

[regfootball]

Here are a few chops per Croc's request:

Rear:

nice chop but just a warning, it begins to ever so slightly resemble my old Diamante from that angle......at least just the c pillar and a wee bit of the trunk lid

you don't want that

Edited October 5, 2006 by regfootball

[Northstar]

Yes, I'm sure you will :AH-HA_wink:

201606[/snapback]

08 New York show?

201611[/snapback]

I was thinking more along the lines of an annoucement saying "The DTS is dead, we will instead have STS and STS-L models for the NG STS."

[Croc]

THANKS NOS!!

nice chop but just a warning, it begins to ever so slightly resemble my old Diamante from that angle......at least just the c pillar and a wee bit of the trunk lid

you don't want that

201691[/snapback]

Reg, it also resembles the current DTS...

Edited October 5, 2006 by Croc

[Croc]

Edited October 5, 2006 by Croc

[Croc]

hey NOS I just realized we forgot the CHMSL...and we prolly should've modified the greenhouse for the rear seat to flatten the top of the window like the other Caddy's cuz it's just a wee bit too curvy.

But yea...damn that all came out better than I thought it would

[NOS2006]

Yeah, they did come out pretty good.. I'd love to see a DTS look like that. And, amazingly, these 4 chops only took me like 60-90 minutes total.

What is CHMSL?

[Drew Dowdell]

Awesome chops guys. The only thing I'd change would be the headlights, they need to be more vertical so you don't get a "It looks like a Catera"

I realize that would be hard to do in the chop, but you guys did such great work as is.

[Satty]

Center High Mount Stop Lamp---3rd brake light

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Is it just me, or do I find it wierd that the Statesman styling works perfectly for a Cadillac rebadge, but the Commodore styling works poorly as a Pontiac rebadge?

Edited October 5, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[cavalier36]

im thinking this car would look better as a Buick.. can someone do a chop of this car as a Buick?? last time i heard Buick was getting a Zeta sedan..

[Croc]

Awesome chops guys. The only thing I'd change would be the headlights, they need to be more vertical so you don't get a "It looks like a Catera"

I realize that would be hard to do in the chop, but you guys did such great work as is.

201717[/snapback]

I thought about that...BUT my rationale for not doing it was:

1. I don't want all Cadillacs to have the exact same face.

2. Deville's have always had stacked horizontal headlamps (slight horizontal rectangle) than vertical.

3. The current vertical headlamps on the DTS are very poorly-executed.

The only thing I want to revise (and eliminate the "be a better Buick" is the roofline. I say keep the front door part of it as is...but once the passenger door is hit keep the roofline/greenhouse flat.

[thegriffon]

I was thinking more along the lines of an annoucement saying "The DTS is dead, we will instead have STS and STS-L models for the NG STS."

201693[/snapback]

Could be the other way round.

[thegriffon]

Center High Mount Stop Lamp---3rd brake light

201718[/snapback]

You may not be able to see it at that angle, but the Statesman already has one.

[Northstar]

Could be the other way round.

201773[/snapback]

I suppose, but if there's currently a code for the NG STS, and there isn't a code for the NG DTS, I think it's more likely that the DTS goes away.

[Sixty8panther]

I'm just shocked at how very comparable and in some ways bigger the Statesman is to the DTS...especially with trunk volume!

201561[/snapback]

Agreed, it's a very interesting observation. I too was surprised.

This is such a win/win scenario. I've said this before... Zetas

will be the turning point for GM. The Zetas will fix years of very

bad decisions and poor judgement on GM's part.

They have the potential to fix the gap left by yhe '87 G-body

and the '96 B-body and even to a smaller degree the crater

left in GM's lineup left by the premature death of Oldsmobile.

Once the new Camaro, CTS-coupe, GTO &/or Firebird hit the

showrooms we'll really be in business... litteraly!!!

[ehaase]

I suppose, but if there's currently a code for the NG STS, and there isn't a code for the NG DTS, I think it's more likely that the DTS goes away.

201795[/snapback]

See Evok's post here and a few posts down.

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...27entry144327

[Northstar]

See Evok's post here and a few posts down. 

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...27entry144327

201806[/snapback]

That's from almost 5 months ago. That could have been the plan then, but what I've heard/seen suggests that the DTS is dead and the STS lives on.

[Paolino]

Oh, I REALLY like that too! LOVE the interior!

[ocnblu]

I'm hoping for a nice dose of Sixteen in the next DTS/STS L, but with a shorter front clip. The chops are nice, but they're just not adventurous enough for Cadillac A&S II, imo.

[Drew Dowdell]

I thought about that...BUT my rationale for not doing it was:

1. I don't want all Cadillacs to have the exact same face.

2. Deville's have always had stacked horizontal headlamps (slight horizontal rectangle) than vertical.

3. The current vertical headlamps on the DTS are very poorly-executed.

The only thing I want to revise (and eliminate the "be a better Buick" is the roofline.  I say keep the front door part of it as is...but once the passenger door is hit keep the roofline/greenhouse flat.

201770[/snapback]

understood, I'd just watch out for Catera stigma, since that's what I immediately thought when I saw it. <though I've always thought the Catera was attractive>

[pow]

I'm hoping for a nice dose of Sixteen in the next DTS/STS L, but with a shorter front clip.  The chops are nice, but they're just not adventurous enough for Cadillac A&S II, imo.

201841[/snapback]

Agreed. The Statesman would make a great Buick, but I don't think it's sophisticated enough for Caddy's flagship sedan.

It needs a completely different body and interior, as well as the sort of technology you'd expect on a $70K car -- dual radar cruise control, keyless go, and so on.

Cadillac doesn't need an XJ.

[turbo200]

Agreed. The Statesman would make a great Buick, but I don't think it's sophisticated enough for Caddy's flagship sedan.

It needs a completely different body and interior, as well as the sort of technology you'd expect on a $70K car -- dual radar cruise control, keyless go, and so on.

Cadillac doesn't need an XJ.

201862[/snapback]

absolutely!

in the coming generation design will be more competitive and crucial than ever. The problem Caddy has is that they haven't had enough time to mature their design cues, and they haven't progressed from the original CTS look enough. Audi's look is cemented in people's heads, and improving, BMW, Infiniti, MB are all taking thier design through different evolutions. Cadillac started with the most breakthrough design on the market, but now everyone has got a real fluid looking car that looks like nothing else on the market.

The Statesman is not enough car for Cadillac, especially not for one that has to raise in price. DTS is selling at inflated numbers thanks to fleet magic, the real market is not as big as the numbers make it seem, though it is still significant. Selling another DTS instead of radically improving the CTS and STS at those price points of the current DTS would be a huge mistake on Cadillac's part. Let Buick pick up DTS customers with a fancy Statesman.

[97regalGS]

Note just how close these two are dimensionally??

Statesman has enough creases that it could pass as a Cadillac DTS with only minor revision...

(pictures coming soon)

201545[/snapback]

croc, I'm disappointed. you're just figuring this out now?

[97regalGS]

I thought about that...BUT my rationale for not doing it was:

1. I don't want all Cadillacs to have the exact same face.

2. Deville's have always had stacked horizontal headlamps (slight horizontal rectangle) than vertical.

3. The current vertical headlamps on the DTS are very poorly-executed.

The only thing I want to revise (and eliminate the "be a better Buick" is the roofline.  I say keep the front door part of it as is...but once the passenger door is hit keep the roofline/greenhouse flat.

201770[/snapback]

what exactly is 'stacked horizontal'?

and do you mean just the last gen Deville cause didn't the previous generation have 'side by side' horizontal headlights?

[97regalGS]

That's from almost 5 months ago. That could have been the plan then, but what I've heard/seen suggests that the DTS is dead and the STS lives on.

201808[/snapback]

i'm confused by your comments.

current FWD DTS platform is or will be dead. doesn't mean the name is. so are you referring to the name or the platform? if grif is talking about STS-sigma going away and DTS moving to zeta.......

i think the question is will Cadillac get

- 2 sigma cars (STS and CTS)

- 1 sigma car(CTS) and 1 zeta car(DTS)

- 2 sigma cars (CTS and STS) and 1 Zeta car (DTS)

- 1 sigma car (CTS) and 2 zeta cars (DTS and DTS-L)

someone please confirm. would a zeta DTS equal a sigma STS in terms of 'performance'. ie. which one is a superior platform.

my thought was that zeta, since it is used for chevy, pontiac etc was a less technological and less expensive platform than sigma. i think the front end suspension are different. so does it make sense for cadillac to drop the STS from sigma and then bring out an 'inferior' zeta to replace it?

if that is the case, something doesn't add up for me. it might cost more than the CTS due to luxury features etc. but it still leaves a big hole in the cadillac line-up for 545i and 745i shoppers. as much as i would like to see NG-CTS take on the 5series, i don't see how it can bridge the price gap to get there.

add in the BLS on ep2 and seems almost like cadillac is going backwards?????

[Northstar]

The NG DTS was supposed to be on Zeta, but from what I've seen, it's been cancelled. The NG STS is still on from what I've seen as well.

Sigma > Zeta

[Croc]

You may not be able to see it at that angle, but the Statesman already has one.

201774[/snapback]

But not going across the decklid like the CTS, STS and current DTS. I was just mentioning that as an alteration to the Statesman to make it more of a Cadillac.

[Croc]

croc, I'm disappointed.  you're just figuring this out now?

201884[/snapback]

I didn't know the dimensions of the Statesman. I got this idea when I went on the Holden site to see why everyone was bitching about the Commodore not looking "Pontiac" enough (yea still don't get that) and saw a picture of a Statesman on one of their cycling images...and thought "WOW that front has creases but is also soft...kinda like a DTS should be!"

what exactly is 'stacked horizontal'?

and do you mean just the last gen Deville cause didn't the previous generation have 'side by side' horizontal headlights?

201886[/snapback]

"Stacked horizontal" as in horizontally-aligned units stacked on top of each other to make a blocky, slightly horizontally-rectangled shape.

Examples:

Note how the horizontal lights are stacked on the horizontal amber light.

OK OK technically a 1988 Brougham...but same general styling.

Note how the headlights themselves are stacked on the ambers...

Clearly stacked.

[evok]

That's from almost 5 months ago. That could have been the plan then, but what I've heard/seen suggests that the DTS is dead and the STS lives on.

201808[/snapback]

Marketing names assigned to anything in development can be irrelevant.

Marketing has the final say on brand names, not engineering.

Now, if Cadillac consolodates the DTS and STS on sigma, with 2 different wheelbases, they can cover the same market with one car in one plant. The current STS needs to grow to better differentiate the vehicle from the CTS and the fwd DTS needs to go away. These vehicles can be offered with the current STS powertrain offerenings. Call the car the DTS and DTS-L because of the loyal following of the current Deville/DTS buyer. Starting length is 198in with a 5 inch stretch in the rear for the L.

Edited October 6, 2006 by evok

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

198" is too small for a DTS-it needs to be bigger than that-its needs to have vast trunk space-think of it this way-Chrysler 300 is 197" and only has 15.6 cubic feet-mediocre for a mid-size car, downright pitiful (but not the worst) for a full-size car. The chop looks okay, I'm not crazy about it, but the rounded peg at the bottom riight corner of the Holden's front doors just kills it for me. I think if a next DTS is made, it needs to look exactly like the 2003 Sixteen concept. Well, with a few edgier changes perhaps, but just as long as it doesn't compromise the entire design. I don't really care what happens to STS or DTS-but Cadillac needs a flagship sedan, but GM has other priorities right now. I say, keep the DTS until Cadillac is more ready/in better shape to develop an XTS/Sixteen-type car. But modernize the DTS at least to Lexus LS levels at the very least!

[97regalGS]

I didn't know the dimensions of the Statesman.  I got this idea when I went on the Holden site to see why everyone was bitching about the Commodore not looking "Pontiac" enough (yea still don't get that) and saw a picture of a Statesman on one of their cycling images...and thought "WOW that front has creases but is also soft...kinda like a DTS should be!"

"Stacked horizontal" as in horizontally-aligned units stacked on top of each other to make a blocky, slightly horizontally-rectangled shape.

Examples:

Note how the horizontal lights are stacked on the horizontal amber light.

OK OK technically a 1988 Brougham...but same general styling.

Note how the headlights themselves are stacked on the ambers...

Clearly stacked.

201933[/snapback]

i now understand what you were saying. but I don't think you can stack anything horizontally. just not possible.

and why did u have to pick a Deville with a Landau roof???

Edited October 6, 2006 by 97regalGS

[97regalGS]

The NG DTS was supposed to be on Zeta, but from what I've seen, it's been cancelled. The NG STS is still on from what I've seen as well.

Sigma > Zeta

201916[/snapback]

be careful how you post northie. you're beginning to sound like quion. you're not an insider but you've started to post like one.

[Croc]

I disagree...Northie included the "from what I've seen" that quionM rarely does.

As for the Landau...I was going for the first good shot of the headlights.

Edited October 6, 2006 by Croc

[97regalGS]

I disagree...Northie included the "from what I've seen" that quionM rarely does.

As for the Landau...I was going for the first good shot of the headlights.

202070[/snapback]

'from what I've seen' implies that he is connected, when in fact that is not the case. btw it's an observation I'm made recently. while not as blatant as quionM, there is certainly some swagger in his postings.

[Northstar]

be careful how you post northie.  you're beginning to sound like quion.  you're not an insider but you've started to post like one.

202069[/snapback]

I'm not an insider, but if I have inside information why does it matter? If my info is outdated and something has changed, then by all means correct it (similar to what evok said - that the program's name doesn't mean that's the marketin name). But until then, I'll assume that the info I have is still correct.

'from what I've seen' implies that he is connected, when in fact that is not the case.  btw it's an observation I'm made recently. while not as blatant as quionM, there is certainly some swagger in his postings.

202074[/snapback]

How do you know I don't have any connections?

[ehaase]

i think the question is will Cadillac get

- 2 sigma cars (STS and CTS)

- 1 sigma car(CTS) and 1 zeta car(DTS)

- 2 sigma cars (CTS and STS) and 1 Zeta car (DTS)

- 1 sigma car (CTS) and 2 zeta cars (DTS and DTS-L)

 

201888[/snapback]

For what it's worth. my prediction is that Cadillac will have - all on Sigma - CTS and a larger sedan, whether it is STS/STS-L or DTS/DTS-L. I don't think it matters whether the larger sedan is STS or DTS, but it does appear that thegriffon's information is similar to what Evok posted in June.

[Cory Wolfe]

Agreed. The Statesman would make a great Buick, but I don't think it's sophisticated enough for Caddy's flagship sedan.

It needs a completely different body and interior, as well as the sort of technology you'd expect on a $70K car -- dual radar cruise control, keyless go, and so on.

Cadillac doesn't need an XJ.

201862[/snapback]

absolutely!

in the coming generation design will be more competitive and crucial than ever. The problem Caddy has is that they haven't had enough time to mature their design cues, and they haven't progressed from the original CTS look enough. Audi's look is cemented in people's heads, and improving, BMW, Infiniti, MB are all taking thier design through different evolutions. Cadillac started with the most breakthrough design on the market, but now everyone has got a real fluid looking car that looks like nothing else on the market.

The Statesman is not enough car for Cadillac, especially not for one that has to raise in price. DTS is selling at inflated numbers thanks to fleet magic, the real market is not as big as the numbers make it seem, though it is still significant. Selling another DTS instead of radically improving the CTS and STS at those price points of the current DTS would be a huge mistake on Cadillac's part. Let Buick pick up DTS customers with a fancy Statesman.

201881[/snapback]

*Agreed*

From the chops, I'm not liking this idea. Doesnt look like a Cadillac.

[91z4me]

be careful how you post northie.  you're beginning to sound like quion.  you're not an insider but you've started to post like one.

202069[/snapback]

I don't think that would be an insult to be considered like GuionM. He is VERY respected by myself and many others, as are all the other insiders. Also just because his information differs from others doesn't mean it is false. They are likely just getting information from 2 different sources.

Also to evok, can you breath under that rock? I haven't seen you post in quite a while, hope everything is going ok.

[ichbinjohnk]

'from what I've seen' implies that he is connected, when in fact that is not the case.  btw it's an observation I'm made recently. while not as blatant as quionM, there is certainly some swagger in his postings.

202074[/snapback]

"from what I've seen" does not necessarily imply he is connected. It could quite possibly mean that he has come across this info in past postings of others on this or other sites. He could simply stating his judgement of any info he's gathered.

It's an observation I've made some time ago that you tend to jump on members ---who state their ideas/predictions based on info they may have---just because they don't always preceed such statements with "I'm definitely not an insider, but these are my ideas (or something to that effect)..." By now, you should have a general idea of who the main insiders are. That doesn't mean others here do not have connections. Still, kindly stop trying to make some "the-way-you-said-that-implies-you're-an-insider-but-I-know-that-can't-possibly-be-true-so-I'll-pompously-point-it-out" situation out of members' posts.

[97regalGS]

I'm not an insider, but if I have inside information why does it matter? If my info is outdated and something has changed, then by all means correct it (similar to what evok said - that the program's name doesn't mean that's the marketin name). But until then, I'll assume that the info I have is still correct.

How do you know I don't have any connections?

202114[/snapback]

cause washing cars at a dealership doesn't make you connected. either does having copies of leaked/exposed internal GM documnent. so instead of quoting for those, why not just post them for all of us to read. that way we can all post like insiders.

[Croc]

cause washing cars at a dealership doesn't make you connected.  either does having copies of leaked/exposed internal GM documnent. so instead of quoting for those, why not just post them for all of us to read. that way we can all post like insiders.

202615[/snapback]

I think you need to get off your high horse and chill out. The more you post on this the less respect I have for you.

[Sixty8panther]

That carrige top on the 2002? DTS makes me want to !

[dado]

i thougth that future sts will grow and take place instead of dts (ofcourse with rwd and awd )...so it would be something like BLS (vs bmw 3) CTS (vs bmw 5) and sts against bmw 7 lexus and s class. and later maybe uls?