Buick's Future

[carman21]

Despite Bob Lutz touting Buick as an American Lexus. I think GM is killing the idea of Buick as a luxury brand like Lexus below Cadillac. Zeta was cancelled because, GM did not see RWD having much of a future beyond Cadillac & sports cars. When GM made the annoucement about Zeta's demise in NA, GM was falling on hard financial times again. So, GM wanted to look as if it were cutting costs. Which was true but, it also had to do with a rejection of any brand brand but, Cadillac going mainstream with RWD. This is not to say that Buick won't have RWD. It just won't be beyond halo vehicles. So, what is Buick likely to be then. Well, Buick will be the most premium non-luxury brand in the US market. Think some where between VW, Acura, & Lexus. Audi-like interiors, Lexus-like quality, class-leading performance, & Velite-inspired style. This is Buick in the 21st century. This doesn't include High performance GS versions. Skylark(Delta 184;$17-25k) 1.9L 160hp I-4 2.4L 205hp I-4 LaCrosse(Epsilon 196;$25-35k) 2.4L 205hp I-4 3.6L 305hp V-6(AWD) Lucerne(Chi 208;$35-45k) 3.6L 305hp V-6(AWD) 4.8L 410hp V-8(AWD) Riviera(Sigma 196;$45-60k)2 or 4door coupe/hard top convrtYes a 4dr cnvrt hardtop 4.8L 410hp V-8 Rendevous(Theta 196;$25-35k)5-pass suv 2.4L 200hp I-4 3.6L 305hp V-6 Centieme(Lambda 208;$35-45k)6-pass suv 3.6L 305hp V-6 4.8L 410hp V-8 The hp figures are achieved by Direct injection and advanced VVT systems. DOD willl be used in concourse with advanced hybrid systems & CVTs to achieve currently unachievable MPG ratings. I'd guess at least 40 MPG city on the 3.6L V-6, 30 on the V-8 and 50 or even 60 on the 2.4L better than 60 on the 1.9L. Gotta love technology, huh? Well, thats all I got say. So, what do you think. Edited September 22, 2005 by carman21

[zoomtm]

centieme is going to replace rendezvous and rainer. i dont think they are going to bring the skylark back. and im pretty sure buick is going to be RWD by 2010.

[97regalGS]

i think you are grasping for straws. how many Delta vehicles do we need? who is going to buy a buick delta? a 4cyl in the lacrosse? why? i suspect gmc will get more crossover options than buick. and didn't gm ditch cvt cause they botched it pretty good? and what advanced hybrid systems? i think that is still a ways off.

[ehaase]

Zeta is back - http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...wtopic=1081&hl=

By 2010, I expect Buick's lineup to consist of Lucerne (Zeta), LaCrosse (Epsilon II), and Rendezvous (Lambda), and that's it. I think GMC will get Theta instead of Buick.

[buickguy]

Buick certainly needs more than three models. Buick outsells Cadillac, Saab, and Saturn. In fact, put together total Saab and Saturn sales and Buick beats that! Buick needs more cars. If GM wants Buick to be the American Lexus...take a look at lexus.com, they have several models, including a convertible.

[VenSeattle]

My Opinion:

2010 Buick cars:

• New for 2009 (as a 2010 model) Buick sedan on Epsilon II replacing LaCrosse (I think they'll drop the LaCrosse name for one they can market in Canada, US, and maybe even China)
  
• The current Lucerne will still be here. FWD. 6-sp auto. Higher V8 output. Possibly 3.8l replaced by the 3.6l. (Lucerne to be replaced in 2011 with a new large FWD/AWD platform (Chi) to be shared with the next gen Impala. 2nd gen Lucerne will be smaller than current Lucerne)
  
• Zeta Sedan above Lucerne debut as a 2011 model.
  
• Zeta coupe/convertible debut hinted at for 2012.

--------------------------------------

2010 Buick Crossovers:

• Lambda with V6 & V8
  
• Possibly a Theta based Buick... still not entirely comfortable with this since I also think GMC will get the Torrent replacement instead of Buick.

[wildcat]

VenSeattle: Of course, it's far in advance enough that anything can change, or happen. But someone with, evidently, inside information told us recently that GMC was getting the sub-Theta, while Buick (with a specific, assigned program code) was getting the Theta (equal to the Eqionox) for '09.

[balthazar]

This may not be the line-up you intended but, it is the most realistic and it can work.

A 4-cylinder Buick is NOT "realistic" and it will NOT "work".

[HarleyEarl]

I beg, I plead, GM never do aother 4cyl Buick in North America ever. I will march in the streets with a placard protesting it if you do. If I had my way, even sixes would be banished from Buick.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Well, do you want Buick to be cross-shopped with Volkswagen, Acura, and Volvo or do you want it to wither away like it is now?

[ehaase]

I think that you will have to look at Buick, Pontiac, and GMC as one large division, since all three will be sold at the same dealerships in most cases. Between the three names, you will still have a full lineup. Pontiac will have Vibe, Solstice, G6, GTO, and I think it's looking more and more like the Grand Prix will survive. Buick will have a couple sedans and a Lambda crossover. GMC will have it current lineup, plus a Theta or two, the Lambda crossover, and maybe a Lambda minivan.

[Flybrian]

The last 4-cyl Buicks were budget models of the Skylark and A-bod Century...and even they had optional sixes.

Following Ehaase's reasoning, Buick will be fine with a lineup of nice midsize+/V6+ sedans while Pontiac takes the lower-end of the premium market.

In other words, why make a premium sport compact Skylark when you can make a premium sport compact G6?

[razoredge]

OK well I say, You have to appreaciate cargyuys enthousiasm. Cnat say much in addition to great ideas or realistic thoughts about but I will add this in regards to cylinders and size. For the first time in nearly a decade Im starting to think 4 banger again. I am not as alergic to them as some of you but forget about that, this is what Im taking about. I look at the Cobalt coupe. Its nice Its OK, youve got the SS with what apparently has proved to be an excellent engine the Ecotec., now supercharged, achieving a HP figure as good as the first SC3800 got. Now take that Cobalt, its nice, its OK but it it everything a true Buick man would want in a small high performance car ? No its not ! Whats it lack? It lacks that Buick class, that Buick styling edge, that interior with a little more warmth, a body with a little more maturity and class. I myself would and most likely will push for a smaller, lighter, no holds barred, full performance mechanicals, full luxury interior, drop dead gorgeous Buick in the spirit of what the Special and Skylark was in the mid 60's. It would be the modern car of Audi A4 and BMW 3 series but made in America and carrying the Buick Trishield. It could be RWD on an extended Kappa, I know it can be done, it couldnt take that long to make longer wheelbase and wider track chassis. Come on, lets go, just do it. Lets put that Kappa facility to full capacity. Slowly fades away knowing no one wants anything thats not a V8 because the price of gas is going down anytime soon.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

The last 4-cyl Buicks were budget models of the Skylark and A-bod Century...and even they had optional sixes.

Following Ehaase's reasoning, Buick will be fine with a lineup of nice midsize+/V6+ sedans while Pontiac takes the lower-end of the premium market.

In other words, why make a premium sport compact Skylark when you can make a premium sport compact G6?

[post="15529"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because G6 is supposed to be mid-size-it failed because as (seemingly, unfortunately) always, Pontiac screwed up by not offering enough passenger (and cargo) room, and of course, understyled it. Pontiac and GM as a whole needs to learn fast how to efficiently size and space their cars, or else they'll be in big trouble-in another way-again. My ideal lineup would have G6 as a Mazda 6-style sport-performance FWD/AWD mid-size car, while the Skyhawk Delta would be a Jetta/TSX/S40/V50 rival; the Skylark a more stylish, roomier, less-expensive 3-Series/C-Class rear-drive compact rival. The Skylark and G6 would have at least the 2.8-liter DOHC High Feature 210hp V-6 engine as standard; the Skyhawk would have the 2.4-liter DOHC ECOTEC 175hp I-4 engine; the 2.8 V-6 if Delta could be fitted (I disagree with short Epsilon as in its current form-I think it should just be left to mid-size cars only). I've always appreciated carman21's enthusiasm-even if unfeasible, he's always had great ideas. I'd want the Skylark shortened from Zeta VE architecture, given Kappa's woes and for V-6/V-8 (I wouldn't put the latter in Skylark-maybe a top GS but that's it.

[rkmdogs]

Buick lost direction when corporate decreed that Oldsmobile would be the innovative division......... and look what happened to them!

But Buick in the past has had some of the most solid engineering advancements
of all the divisions.
They sure as hell were not "me-toos" when they created the 3.8L V-6, nor were
they sitting in the back seat when the Grand Nationals were alive!
Here's a design that they should have followed thru on, with a modern DOD V-6,
with variable valve timing, and of course....... a turbo!



:rolleyes:

[carman21]

I guess I struck a nerve with what I said before. Remember I love the Zeta Buick line-up that hopefully will happen. I just getting unerved by the fact that how can buick take on Lexus without hurting Cadillac and how can it be sold with Pontiac(a non-premium brand). Toyota doesn't sell Scion with Lexus for a reason. Buick was a generation ago what Toyota is today, the benchmark of mainstream automobiles. Buick ranked 3rd & 4th regularly in the US sales from 1965-1975. Today Toyota is regularly compared to Buick of old.
I think the root of both GM's and Buick's problem is a lack of a clearly competitive vehicle. This means that if you want to compete with apples don't sell oranges. The closest that GM has gotten to a fair comparison to the Camcord was the last gen Malibu. Yet even here GM failed to have a DOHC V-6 to amke the camparison realistic. I'm personally fustrated that many GM fans don't get that many GM products fail to directly meet thier competition. Of course a Grand Prix is not comparable to the Altima. The G6 is also not a direct competitor to the Altima. The answer is to meet the competition then beat thecompetition. Look The last Hyundai Sonata wasn' t quite comparable to the Camry now it is. The problem is GM is still holding on to competing with Ford and Chrysler head to head. Well, guess what Ford & Chrysler aren't stealing your sales.
GM needs to
1) Meet the Competition
2) Beat the Competition
3) When you regain leadership then Americanized the standards like Toyota has Japanized the market today.

Here is my suggested line-up(I put all of GM' non-lux brands here to give you a sense of what's going on.Again no sport models shown Gamma=G, Delta=D, Epsilon=E, Chi=C.
Chevy=Hyundai/Kia/Suzuki
Aveo(G166)($9-12k)
1.9L 110hp I-4
2.2L 140hp I-4
Cobalt(D178($12-15k)
2.2L 140hp I-4
2.4L 170hp I-4
Malibu(E190)($15-20k)
2.4L 170hp I-4
3.6L 240hp V-6
Impala(C202)($20-30k)
3.6L 260hp V-6
4.6L 290hp V-8
Pontiac=Mazda/Scion/Honda
G2(G166)($10-13k)
1.9L 120hp I-4
2.2L 150hp I-4
G4(D178)(13-17k)
2.2L 150hp I-4
2.4L 180hp I-4
G6(E190)($17-25k)
2.4L 180hp I-4
3.6L 250hp V-6
Saturn=Toyota/Nissan
Ion($15-20k)(D178)
2.2L 160hp I-4
2.4L 190hp I-4
Aura($20-30k)(E190)
2.4L 190hp I-4
3.6L 260hp V-6
Evoke($30-40k)(C196)
3.6L 280hp V-6
4.6L 320hp V-8
Buick=VW/Acura
Signia(E190)(25-35k)(The name of a 1998 Buick comcept wagon,not a wagon here)
2.4L 200hp I-4
3.6L 280hp V-6
Allure(C196)($35-45k)(Canadian for LaCrosse)
3.6L 300hp V-6
4.8L 350hp V-8
Lucerne(C208)($45-55k)(Think A Buick Deville)
4.8L 350hp V-8
4.8L 400hp V-8
Of course DOD,direct injection, 5/6spd autos, & hybrids will make GM the leader in the industry. Buick should never be a me-too brand, never! Buick should be the glimpse into the future of the everyday automobile of the days to come. Buick should "Dream Up" .
Well, is this better or worse? I think its the best non-sigma/zeta line-up possible. Of course Zeta & Sigma will make this rendering irrelevent. I'm all for RWD but, it good to set low expectations now in order to love the results. I know GM will deliver.This is the best worst case scenario. Edited September 22, 2005 by carman21

[titan]

^ Well, I see where you're going. It's just a matter of opinion. We're all dreaming. You're dreaming using a more realistic approach because your lineup includes existing platforms used here. I don't have a problem with ur lineup, except for Buick. My heads in the clouds, so I'm hoping Buick will get a Zeta or Zeta-lite (whatever they call it) at some point. I really want Buick to be all RWD except for maybe the Lacrosse. So, I'm dreaming with my head in the clouds. Also, if Zeta does ever come, I'd add a G8 and RWD Chevy.

[carman21]

Thanks,Titan. Finally, somebody gets what I'm saying. Yeah, I hope Zeta works out too but, we may as well work with what we know is garanteed. Zeta is still at risk of budget cuts even if it has been greenlighted again. Any product 3 years or more in the future is a mere pipedream until it is officially unveiled.

[chrominium steel]

This is my suggested (American) line-up with new platforms price are base prices without any option included. Saturn: the cheapest economy cars GM has to offer -Aveo equivalent "beta" 165"x65" $9-10k -Ion "gamma" 180"x68"$11k Opel: European economy cars both gamma -Astra 14k -vectra 19k Vauxhall: -viva 14k -victor 18k -velox 28k Chevrolet: the most popular brand. -Cobalt "gamma" 180"x68" available in 2dr wagon 2dr coupe and 4dr sedan $15k -Nova "X-body" 190"x72" (4dr sedan and station wagon 2dr coupe and convertible and sedan) $17k -Chevelle A-body 197"x75"(4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) base $20k Custom $21K Malibu $23k -full-size B-body 208"x78"(4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) Utility $21k Fleetmaster $22k Biscayne $23k Bel Air $24k Impala $26k. -camaro f-body 190"x75" 2dr coupe from $23k -corvette y-body 170"x70" 2 dr coupe from $42k pontiac: GM's premium brand -tempest a-body 202"x75"(4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) base $21.5k custom $23k LeMans $25k gto 28k -Catalina b-body 212"x80" (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) $26k -executive/Bonneville 216"x80" (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr hardtop, convertible) executive $29k bonneville $33k bonneville brougham $35k -Firebird f-body 2dr coupe 193"x75" $25k -Grand prix b-body 212"x80" 2dr coupe $34k Oldsmobile: GM's near luxury brand -f-85 a-body 202"x75" (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) base $23k custom $24k Cutlass $26k 442 $29k -88 b-body (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr hardtop, convertible) dynamic $28k delta $33k -98 c-body 218"x80" (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr hardtop, convertible) $38k ls:$41k -Toronado e-body 208"x77" 2drcoupe $40k Buick GM's low-end luxury brand -Special a-body 202"x75" (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr sedan, hardtop, convertible) base $23k custom $24k Skylark $26k GS $29k -LeSabre/Wildcat b-body (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr hardtop, convertible) LeSabre $29k custom $31k Wildcat 35k -Electra/Roadmaster/Limited c-body 218"x80" (222" limited) (4dr sedan, hardtop, station wagon. 2dr hardtop, convertible) Electra: $39k custom $41k Roadmaster $45k Limited $52k -Riviera e-body 206"x77" 2dr coupe $40k Cadillac: luxury cars -62/63 Deville and Park Avenue/ Fleetwood 60 special c-body 220"x80" (212" Park Avenue) (224" 60s) (4dr sedan, hardtop, 2dr hardtop, convertible) 62 $49k 63: $54k 60s: $70k -Eldorado c-body 218"x80" 2dr coupe $90k -Eldorado brougham c-body 214"x80 $150K -Fleetwood 75/90 4dr limousine or sedan 75: 90K 90: 300k (90 is Cadillac's prestige car with a v16)

[Croc]

Yea...not gonna happen, Chrominium. That would almost guarantee Buick to get the axe.

[ehaase]

You folks need to be content with Buick being trimmed back to three models - LaCrosse, Lambda, and Lucerne - and nothing else. I do think that there is a good chance that the next generation Lucerne will use the Zeta platform, while the next generation LaCrosse will use Epsilon II. Any growth at GM will come from Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC, and Saturn. Buick and Pontiac will survive, but will be smaller.

[bring_BUICK_back]

Buick needs to be brought back to the glory days. FUCK LUTZ and those at the top! Buick needs more than 3 veicles. WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK TELL LUTZ THAT HE IS A PUTZ BRING BUICK BACK

[milleramerican]

Buick needs to be brought back to the glory days.  FUCK LUTZ and those at the top!  Buick needs more than 3 veicles. 
WE NEED TO FIGHT BACK  TELL LUTZ THAT HE IS A PUTZ 
                              BRING
                   
                            BUICK

                            BACK

[post="25339"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

buick does need more than 3 models. dont blame lutz however, and please be more professional about these matters in the future. dont say f*** anyone please.

[Paolino]

I don't feel Buick will have only three models... I feel they'll have 3 sedans, 2 trucklike vehicles, and that's it.

And honestly, 3 sedans is fine. It should be 3 sedans, or two sedans and one coupe/roadster, two trucks, in my opinion.

[wildcat]

I think ehaase was saying three, after Rainier and Terraza are dropped.
Possibly Buick will get a rebadged Equinox in 2009, and perhaps a RWD flagship around 2010 or so.
Or maybe GM will crumble before then.
Today I jotted down a line that stuck in my mind. It was said about something else, but I fear it may apply to Buick: " . . . a victim of late 20th-century mismanagement and early 21st-century competition . . . "

[ehaase]

GMC is the strongest brand in BPG, and I think that GMC will end up with all of the trucks and truck-like vehicles. Instead of thinking of Buick as its own brand, I think it is best to think of BPG as one division.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I see where you guys are going with the three-in-one division, and I agree to an extent. I think Pontiac needs to focus on the sporty-performance (i.e. Mazda) aspect of things, Buick the near-luxury portion(VW/Acura/Mercury/Chrysler), and GMC-real trucks only-send Lambda and Theta-based vehicles to Chevy (Lambda), and to Buick for a compact, not mid-size crossover car-based SUV. A Buick version makes more sense because of rising competition from Mercury Mariner, Acura RDX, and BMW X3. Buick can take them if the Rapid (my name suggestion) is good enough. GMC is more premium than Chevrolet, but not as much as Acura or BMW. I think a Cadillac BRX would cheapen the brand, and why Buick should take it, with 2.8-liter DOHC High Feature or 3.6-liter HF V-6 engines.

[Stoopsbuick]

I don't see Buick getting wiped but I do see in the future is no more stand-alone Buick dealers. I don't know how that will get handled but I'm hoping since our store just built a 3 million dollar facility for Buick only they'd get the extra lines to us..... B) :CG_all:

[thegriffon]

In general GM is "facilitating" mergers or buyouts in localities where the three brands have more than one dealer, but that is ultimately down to the individuals and companies involved. Less beneficial would be a co-location deal for seperate franchises. I doubt they'd award new franchises unless you can persuade them there are insufficient Pontiac or GMC dealers in your area. Where are you anyway? Both Stoops Buick dealerships I can find are in Indiana, Muncie already has Pontiac and GMC (in different location to Buick, Toyota, Nissan and BMW), Plainfield is closest to Dugan Chevrolet-Pontiac and Pence Oldsmobile-GMC, with a combined Pontiac-Buick-GMC twice as far away (about 12 miles). Edited October 8, 2005 by thegriffon

[Stoopsbuick]

In general GM is "facilitating" mergers or buyouts in localities where the three brands have more than one dealer, but that is ultimately down to the individuals and companies involved. Less beneficial would be a co-location deal for seperate franchises. I doubt they'd award new franchises unless you can persuade them there are insufficient Pontiac or GMC dealers in your area. Where are you anyway? Both Stoops Buick dealerships I can find are in Indiana, Muncie already has Pontiac and GMC (in different location to Buick, Toyota, Nissan and BMW), Plainfield is closest to Dugan Chevrolet-Pontiac and Pence Oldsmobile-GMC, with a combined Pontiac-Buick-GMC twice as far away (about 12 miles).

[post="25574"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm at the store in Plainfield. I don't know if we could ever get Pontiac with Dugan being so close but I can't remember the last time I saw on the reports Pence reporting more than 10 new trucks sold for a month. In the area it's in believe me it's not filling it potential....