It's Official: Commodore coming to US as a Pontiac

[z28luvr01]

I am being wise. That's why I'm not getting all upset. Everyone is reading so much into ONE quote from Bob Lutz:

Nowhere in that quote does he say anything about a Commodore or about Pontiac. He's just saying, "Wait 'till Chicago."

[Camino LS6]

Try this scenario out for size:

It is fast becoming obvious to me that Oshawa won't be able to handle all of the Zeta variants that seem bound for production. With that in mind, Holden becomes an obvious source for a few models in limited numbers which might work as the initial way to get some of these cars to market. Long term they won't be able to handle the volume of any Zeta that sells more than 20k/year or so. But what is to stop GM from getting a limited supply of VE based cars sent here as premium models for various GMNA brands while capacity to build more Zetas here is ramped-up? These models could be rotated through with GMNA taking over production of models with real volume potential as capacity allows.

So, say we get a G8/Grand Prix based on the Commodore first and if the demand is there it moves to domestic production at higher volume. Holden then could fill the volume it loses with a Statesman in Buick clothes, and a Ute as a new El Camino. This way, we get what we want more quickly and GM establishes a system to respond rapidly to shifting demand both here and in Australia. The entire range of Zeta/VE cars gets a much wider exposure with the flexibility to shift models and production from market to market as required.

Holden is brilliant when it comes to getting the most out of an architecture. The sheer number of variants it produces from a single basic structure is staggering. This opens up the opportunity for a long parade of niche cars coming to the US in rotation, helping to keep the GMNA lineups fresh over time. Some may stay as niche players while others move to wider domestic production. I believe that VE/Zeta has the potential to be the most important GM car architecture since the "A" and "G" body cars of the past.

Finally, GM has been looking for ways to make the Holden/GMNA connection work for a VERY long time so I doubt you will see a simple, cheap re-badge at all.

[Camino LS6]

Don't forget, the VE chassis is slated to be replaced with the GMNA Zeta rather quickly. This brings the flexibility of producing the same car(s) to both continents.

[z28luvr01]

I like the way you think, Camino.

[Camino LS6]

I like the way you think, Camino.

200825[/snapback]

Thanks Z.

Lately, I've been imagining all these high-quality, niche vehicles showing-up in Buick,Pontiac, and Chevy showrooms and it's been making me smile. GM could make a bunch of them happen for far less than just the Camaro will cost them to do.

[enzl]

Try this scenario out for size:

It is fast becoming obvious to me that Oshawa won't be able to handle all of the Zeta variants that seem bound for production. With that in mind, Holden becomes an obvious source for a few models in limited numbers which might work as the initial way to get some of these cars to market. Long term they won't be able to handle the volume of any Zeta that sells more than 20k/year or so. But what is to stop GM from getting a limited supply of VE based cars sent here as premium models for various GMNA brands while capacity to build more Zetas here is ramped-up? These models could be rotated through with GMNA taking over production of models with real volume potential as capacity allows.

So, say we get a G8/Grand Prix based on the Commodore first and if the demand is there it moves to domestic production at higher volume. Holden then could fill the volume it loses with a Statesman in Buick clothes, and a Ute as a new El Camino. This way, we get what we want more quickly and GM establishes a system to respond rapidly to shifting demand both here and in Australia. The entire range of Zeta/VE cars gets a much wider exposure with the flexibility to shift models and production from market to market as required.

Holden is brilliant when it comes to getting the most out of an architecture. The sheer number of variants it produces from a single basic structure is staggering. This opens up the opportunity for a long parade of niche cars coming to the US in rotation, helping to keep the GMNA lineups fresh over time. Some may stay as niche players while others move to wider domestic production. I believe that VE/Zeta has the potential to be the most important GM car architecture since the "A" and "G" body cars of the past.

Finally, GM has been looking for ways to make the Holden/GMNA connection work for a VERY long time so I doubt you will see a simple, cheap re-badge at all.

200820[/snapback]

Ditto...couldn't have expressed it better myself.

To me, GM needs to get these cars here ASAP.

If the Aveo can be a Chevy, than the Holden Zetas could certainly be proud Pontiacs....

Keep in mind that most of Pontiac's lineup has been exciting in ad copy only for years. To argue that the GP or Bonneville were real sport sedans is laughable---these Zetas could give immediate credence to Pontiac's high performance ethos.

If the GP/Bonneville/G6 are 'real' Pontiacs, then I can't wait to get the fake Holden Pontiacs...badge engineering works when noone in the market has ever seen the 'original' product. Technically, Toyota has badge-engineered a full line-up of Lexi & Scions...they're all badged (until recently) Toyota's everywhere in the World but here.

People who stand on principle with this issue are not seeing the whole picture. A truly global manufacturer sells its product around the world. Seeing it as a US issue is backwards---remember, GM will one day (possible soon) be selling more product in China than in the US---here's hoping ALL of their output is Zeta-like.

[Mr.Krinkle]

Ditto...couldn't have expressed it better myself.

To me, GM needs to get these cars here ASAP.

If the Aveo can be a Chevy, than the Holden Zetas could certainly be proud Pontiacs....

Keep in mind that most of Pontiac's lineup has been exciting in ad copy only for years. To argue that the GP or Bonneville were real sport sedans is laughable---these Zetas could give immediate credence to Pontiac's high performance ethos.

If the GP/Bonneville/G6 are 'real' Pontiacs, then I can't wait to get the fake Holden Pontiacs...badge engineering works when noone in the market has ever seen the 'original' product. Technically, Toyota has badge-engineered a full line-up of Lexi & Scions...they're all badged (until recently) Toyota's everywhere in the World but here.

People who stand on principle with this issue are not seeing the whole picture. A truly global manufacturer sells its product around the world. Seeing it as a US issue is backwards---remember, GM will one day (possible soon) be selling more product in China than in the US---here's hoping ALL of their output is Zeta-like.

200831[/snapback]

thats very cromulent. you mustve have read too.

i like those scenarios and certainly isnt unpossible to embiggen the outlook of globalized paltforms.

i think the corsa is going to be a textbook example. the aveo, sky/opel collaborations and finally the holdens.

this breakdown has been going on for a while and the interview with lutz certainly indicated the determination of successfuly pooling the resources of a global platform.

i also liked the gto and understand it was polarizing. but i also believed it set up a barometer to measure interest in sharing platforms. if not exactly hitting the nail on the head regarding design but cerrtainly mechanics.

there are big plans that are only beginning to sort out. we see examples of it rolling off the lines right now, even if it is only in its infancy.

[Cory Wolfe]

Z, Hyper, Enzl, etc... thank you for continued intelligence in this thread.

[Mr.Krinkle]

id like to thank bob lutz and and all of gm for possibly alluding to a brighter future for pontiac. well see come detroit but after what some of the above have speculated it could be a hell of a time to be a pontiac fan.

if any person gets it its lutz. hes been around long enough and seen enough and has pretty damned good sense and taste to boot so i have no doubt the future products will be anything less than spectacular.

they really almost have to be and i think they know that, and i think thats a good thing (for us)

besides how can you have cars like the camaro running around with some plain jane pontiacs next to it.

[regfootball]

This thing ?

you have got to be kiddin me ? GM's been taking a bash over styling and this is not the answer. This is not going to drag people away from Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infinity or even Mazda or Acura...What is this GTO II ?

200627[/snapback]

hell, if the commodore is not Pontiac enough for anyone, then let's get RAGEOUS on them!!!!!

THERE's YOUR BRAND DNA!!!!

[regfootball]

No, like the '63 Grand Prix, '66 Catalina 2+2, '67 GTO, '70 GTO, '70 Firebird 400, '06 Solstice, or '06 G6 coupe.  It does not have to be retro, it just has to be a continuance.  It has to fit the brand.  Pontiac is not Holden.

200781[/snapback]

we don't need any more 'boomers reliving their muscle car years cars' ont he market. the charger and upcoming Camaro is enough. We need cars that will get drivers out of their money stealing imports. A GTO should outduel G35's. Keep in mind the new CTS is going for a bit more of a luxury look now in 08 so the Commodore is perfect as the spiritual successor to the current CTS at a more repsonsible and accesible price to those buying all the latest eurojap cars.

[MisterMe]

....

if any person gets it its lutz.  hes been around long enough and seen enough and has pretty damned good sense and taste to boot so i have no doubt  the future products will be anything less than spectacular. 

....

The man who gave us the Merkur (pronounced mare-koor) gets it? What exactly is this it?

[Mr.Krinkle]

who are you bill clinton?

i cant spell it out for you but if you want to dredge up every single project hes ever worked on, where exactly do you think the me'kurr will place?

this is about pontiac and gm today. hopefully you dont make the same mistake to import a car from halfway around the world and do it half assed.

Edited October 3, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[ocnblu]

reg, "reading comprehension", learn it, live it, love it. I said (and it appears in the quote), the car does not have to be retro. I thought my inclusion of two new, distinctive and "pure" Pontiacs would also have been a clue. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

reg, "reading comprehension", learn it, live it, love it.  I said (and it appears in the quote), the car does not have to be retro.  I thought my inclusion of two new, distinctive and "pure" Pontiacs would also have been a clue. :AH-HA_wink:

200970[/snapback]

Ocn: I thnk you'll be pleased with the car we eventually get. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the car we see in Chicago is not the car we actually end up with entirely. I expect that refinement will continue even past the show dates.

[ocnblu]

Well, I wouldn't have gone on and on like this if I didn't care. I hope that much is apparent. Yes, I am hopeful because this is such a wonderful opportunity for GM to win back the hearts (and dollars) of buyers looking for authenticity and real substance.

Designing a distinctive skin for each brand shows that the corporation cares about the people who have been loyal, while affording an opportunity to give more buyers more choices, hence increasing chances for conquest growth. Heck, look at all the sheetmetal variations in the GMT900 lineup... it is not that expensive to sufficiently brand a vehicle.

[Camino LS6]

Well, I wouldn't have gone on and on like this if I didn't care.  I hope that much is apparent.  Yes, I am hopeful because this is such a wonderful opportunity for GM to win back the hearts (and dollars) of buyers looking for authenticity and real substance.

Designing a distinctive skin for each brand shows that the corporation cares about the people who have been loyal, while affording an opportunity to give more buyers more choices, hence increasing chances for conquest growth.  Heck, look at all the sheetmetal variations in the GMT900 lineup... it is not that expensive to sufficiently brand a vehicle.

200976[/snapback]

Actually, I agree. I'm not worried though as I believe GM will do the right thing on this. Even if the exterior changes are somewhat restrained, I would expect them to be far more extensive than the GTO changes were. This is a car designed to work as a GMNA model from the start and I expect a great deal of variation and model refresh was baked in at the beginning.

EDIT: I'm pretty confident that this car will be differentiated at least as well as the 900s have been.

[hyperv6]

I am sure Lutz will see it is right before it is let out for us to see.

Just keep in mind the Pontiac look mean different things to different people. So don't be suprised if it is a love hate thing when it is out. I beleive it is just human nature.

As the new car is out for a while most warm up to the new style as it grows on them.

Just keep in mind Pontiac has shook things up several times in their history and each time it proved to provide a improvment in sales.

Some hated when Bunkie removed the silver streaks in 1956 but more people bought the cars after they were gone.

The important thing is not to just make the Pontiac fans happy but the people buying Audi's, low end BMW's, Acura's etc. They are the ones with the money and give them a reason to look at the Pontiac.

The bottom line is Pontiac needs to sell more cars and sell them to non Pontiac buyers while retaining the old Poncho owners. This is not an easy thing but Bob is one of the few I beleive that pull this off.

No one ever sid it would be easy and your never going to please everyone.

Edited October 4, 2006 by hyperv6

[razoredge]

I think all that everyone has said regarding the pros of this chassis could have easily been said by anyone. I believe a few of us arent into repeating obvious lines, using word and phrases like "global" and "good for GM" twice in every sentence. Spreading the frosting is easy, making it takes a bit of time.

I have never seen Blu put any kind of effort like I saw here on any topic. His concernes are spot on. GTO had a dated look when it arrived, no one bashed it that I ever saw, it simply does not take ones breath away. Frankly I dont believe it would have in 95/96 either. I have stood by them and stared at them, over and over and I have to walk away thinking, its just not striking, doesnt stir the soul.

There is nothing wrong with any N American pleading for different sheetmetal on a Pontiac or Buick built on this chassis. That is "sensible thinking" !

For all those bashing the G6, Bonneville and GrandPrix thanks for spreading your opinions as fact.............(enzl). Bashing them and not getting the GTO/Commodore concern speaks volumns on your behalf.

Those falling back on the good old "boomers reliving their muscle cars days" need to pay a bit more attention while reading, no where here, did anyone mention "retro", we only indicated a level of styling that was lost here in America for the most part decades ago.

Anyone that doesnt get the American job issues I so strongly promote...........to bad for you, once again it speaks volumns for your criteria and selfish interests

[Chicagoland]

Those that really remember would know that the '63 GP was the same bodyshell as the Catalina/Bonneville/etc. Some [younger folk] seem to think that the GTO and GP were the only Pontiacs sold in the 60's.

Anyway, back on topic!

I read in the Chicago Trib that the G8 will be made in Canada with the other Zetas. No word on any Australian imports. "Drive.au" is like Motor Trend, pure speculation. Like the Camaro rumors, believe the news when it comes from GM.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Chicagoland

[regfootball]

reg, "reading comprehension", learn it, live it, love it.  I said (and it appears in the quote), the car does not have to be retro.  I thought my inclusion of two new, distinctive and "pure" Pontiacs would also have been a clue. :AH-HA_wink:

200970[/snapback]

I just don't want GM to put out a Charger debacle. it needs something contemporary, is all I'm sayin'

[network engineer]

We will, it's already out, and it's the same as the 2006 SS. I think a 2010 RWD Impala SS is much more likely.

199768[/snapback]

Oops my bad. I meant to slap a 9 on the end. 2009 SS (RWD of course). I would think that would be GM's number one priority with this platform is to replace the impala. 09 is realistic, but 08 would be outrageous, but not impossible.

[network engineer]

I am sure Lutz will see it is right before it is let out for us to see.

Just keep in mind the Pontiac look mean different things to different people. So don't be suprised if it is a love hate thing when it is out.  I beleive it is just human nature.

As the new car is out for a while most warm up to the new style as it drows on them.

Just keep in mind Pontiac has shook things up several times in their history and each time it proved to provide a improvment in sales.

Some hated when Bunkie removed the silver streaks in 1956 but more people bought the cars after they were gone.

The important thing is not to just make the Pontiac fans happy but the people buying Audi's, low end BMW's, Acura's etc. They are the ones with the money and give them a reason to look at the Pontiac.

The bottom line is Pontiac needs to sell more cars and sell them to non Pontiac buyers while retaining the old Poncho owners. This is not an easy thing but Bob is one of the few I beleive that pull this off.

No one ever sid it would be easy and your never going to please everyone.

200997[/snapback]

What is Drows and Bunkie? :AH-HA_wink:

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I'll say this on the subject of a Commodore to Grand Prix conversion, if I haven't said it before: I hope it at least doesn't look like the Motor Trend rendering. When I look at it, I think "Sunbird" for some reason. Everything except the exterior works for Pontiac. I agree that the Pontiac of the Nineties should be put to rest (the best example of a cladded Pontiac was the GA GT, and that's not saying too much, is it?) and modern Pontiacs should be sleek and clean, but that doesn't mean bland.

. . . And I refuse to call it "G8," too. Hell, I've even started calling the "G6" "Grand Am" recently. Time to start branding Pontiacs with real names, GM. If I hear another alpha-numeric name, I think I'll start a mass marketing-exec genocide.

Edited October 4, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[hyperv6]

What is Drows and Bunkie?  :AH-HA_wink: 

201305[/snapback]

Drows is a typo for Grows Sorry!

If you don't know Bunkie you must not be a Pontiac fan.

Bunkie Knudsen was thw son of a past GM pres and took over Pontiac in July of 1956 when Pontiac was close to being dropped for being an old mans car.

He cleaned up Pontiac, brought in John Delorean, and Pete Estes to help make Pontiac what it was in the 60's. They did it with clean styling by removing most of the chorem and add on's tha detracted from the cars. They brought in the wide track. and worked to involve Pontiac in all types of motor sports.

Bunkie first move was to remove the silver chrome streaks from the hood of Pontiacs in 1957 right before intro. He wanted Pontiac to have a new out look and win new buyers that would never have considered a Pontiac because it was not cool to own one up till that point.

Bob Lutz today is what Bunkie Knudsen was to Pontiac in the 50's. A car guy who understands.

[enzl]

There is nothing wrong with any N American pleading for different sheetmetal on a Pontiac or Buick built on this chassis. That is "sensible thinking" !

For all those bashing the G6, Bonneville and GrandPrix thanks for spreading your opinions as fact.............(enzl). Bashing them and not getting the GTO/Commodore concern speaks volumns on your behalf.

Those falling back on the good old "boomers reliving their muscle cars days" need to pay a bit more attention while reading, no where here, did anyone mention "retro", we only indicated a level of styling that was lost here in America for the most part decades ago.

Anyone that doesnt get the American job issues I so strongly promote...........to bad for you, once again it speaks volumns for your criteria and selfish interests

201025[/snapback]

Since I got called out, I'll take my shot proving that you know little about the car business and, unfortunately (for you) even less about international mega business....

First, everyone here would like different sheetmetal. But, if given the choice between nothing and the Commodore. Yes, I guess it's the Aussie, please. 'Sensible thinking' means using all available resources for any and all purposes. I'm guessing you can't read a public company's report and glean exactly how bleak things could get. Those that brandish the B word are not more than a few bad quarters away from being right.

Now, you can quibble with the product offering, but keep in mind that in order to have 'murican GM products, you need a relatively solvent GM. They will be mostly offshore anyway, now (>50% GM product sold outside USA).

I'm for great product. The G6 is a mediocre mid-market sedan. That's all. It's not a class leading product, period. (And it needed to be to get folks out of their Camries/6s/Accords et al.)I find the Grand Prix gross. I'm sorry. I said it. I've driven a few and thought the design, inside & out, was weak and, if possible, the execution even worse. The Bonneville always struck me as a more balanced product...I guess it was the G platform.

And as for 'selfish interests', I'm interested in keeping my 200 Chevrolet employees employed. What are you so worried about? The paper route not a growth industry anymore?

Edited October 5, 2006 by enzl

[razoredge]

Ironic but teehee haha funny just the same. Actually the paper industry is doing great.............in South America.

As for knowing the car business, I'd say that puts me in the same boat as the idiots that have been running GM, only my boat aint got all that money in it. "Mega" business only caters to the handful that have great profit margins from it..........what more do I need to learn ?

Wonder how much GM spent tearing down Buick City ? One platform ? Two platforms ?

[Croc]

I really don't see what's wrong with the Commodore's sheetmetal...it would make a fine Pontiac. I don't even think it looks bland in the least!

Judging by the models I see on the Holden site, I expect the Pontiac to be the SS and SS V-Series models as those seem pretty upscale and have a lot of Pontiac-esque styling to them. The V-Series' rear looks like it could be a credible evolution of the last Bonneville.

I endorse this import.

Edited October 5, 2006 by Croc

[C.H.U.D.]

As long as the front and rear get a distinct Pontiac treatment, I'll be pleased. A totally new shell would be a seriously nice bonus.

[paulvdb]

As long as the front and rear get a distinct Pontiac treatment, I'll be pleased. A totally new shell would be a seriously nice bonus.

I can't see how you'll get a new shell till the new plant starts up. A new shell equals new presses + extra factory space and too many different processes.

The VE Commodore has a completely pre-assembled nose in front of the guards that gets attached to the body as a completely modular unit. I reckon that is the key item that will change for NA, along with rear-end changes. I would say that the sheet metal will be 100% the same, as will the interior (which was designed specifically for LHD/RHD markets).

When NA starts making Zetas then I think you'll see different metal.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I can't see how you'll get a new shell till the new plant starts up. A new shell equals new presses + extra factory space and too many different processes.

The VE Commodore has a completely pre-assembled nose in front of the guards that gets attached to the body as a completely modular unit. I reckon that is the key item that will change for NA, along with rear-end changes. I would say that the sheet metal will be 100% the same, as will the interior (which was designed specifically for LHD/RHD markets).

When NA starts making Zetas then I think you'll see different metal.

205707[/snapback]

thats intersting.

When NA starts making Zetas then I think you'll see different metal

[paulvdb]

thats intersting.

205726[/snapback]

All I'm saying here is that we already know that the Aussie design team are working on a range of Zetas for NA including the Camaro. We seem to also know which plant will be making the new cars so 1+1=2. When the NA plant comes on line in a couple of years then you will see the US-specific metal. Until then you'll probably see the Calais-V and/or the Statesman/Caprice with minimal changes.

[turbo200]

I have a great idea for the Commodore if it ever comes here as a Pontiac next year.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I plan on it soon.

I figured out a great name for this Pontiac that would give it instant name recognition among enthusiasts, and also create a new legend and new sound for Pontiac among buyers.

The new name would be....Commodore! think of it Pontiac Commodore. That actually sounds powerful. It actually evokes good feelings, unlike the Pontiac Gran Prix, which is engrained in my mind at least, as being a cheap rental car with catastrophic proportions and a cheap dashboard. Most import buyers will feel the same way about GP, so Commodore would be a new start.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

All I'm saying here is that we already know that the Aussie design team are working on a range of Zetas for NA including the Camaro.

Actually, the Camaro was also designed by teams in North America (Design North Studio in Michigan being one) and Europe, not just Australia (although I'm not totally aware of their involvent in the concept/production car's design development). :AH-HA_wink:

And welcome to C&G, Paul. Hope you stick around.

[balthazar]

I figured out a great name for this Pontiac that would give it instant name recognition among enthusiasts, and also create a new legend and new sound for Pontiac among buyers. The new name would be....Commodore! think of it Pontiac Commodore. That actually sounds powerful. It actually evokes good feelings, unlike the Pontiac Gran Prix, which is engrained in my mind at least, as being a cheap rental car with catastrophic proportions and a cheap dashboard.

"instant name recognition among enthusiasts"- LOL! if anything, the 'name recognition' would be due to using a 1950s moniker in 200x. The last Commodore in the U.S. was a '52 Hudson. Another oft-proposed nameplate from down under (for Buick) is 'Statesman', last seen in the U.S. as a '56 Nash. Do I think anyone will remember the Hudson & Nash examples? No, I do not. But the names are hoary and old and wretched and the last thing Pontiac needs. Let the names alone, focus on the vehicles first. Recent long-running Pontiac nameplates have all had excellent examples in their past; get the product more in line with what Pontiac traditionally has been and the luster will return to the names naturally.

[turbo200]

okay I am young so I don't remember nor do I care that Commodore was used before. I do, however, know of the GP. It is junk, has been so, for a while now. It was nice back in '99, then it was desirable. It lost its luster long ago, and is now a rental special, in my mind. I think Commodore would be more fitting. the other reason I beleive this is beacuse if the VE car shows up on our shores it will only yield about 40k at the MOST, 20k at the least. This leaves room for another car in between the G6 and "Commodore", when Zeta is ready it can accomodate a Gran Prix, in between these two cars. By this time, maybe the brand Pontiac will have more strength, and a Gran Prix can be readily accepted. And about the enthusiasts remark--many enthusiasts know the name from Holden so what's so LOL about that?

Edited October 26, 2006 by turbo200

[regfootball]

I have a great idea for the Commodore if it ever comes here as a Pontiac next year.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I plan on it soon.

I figured out a great name for this Pontiac that would give it instant name recognition among enthusiasts, and also create a new legend and new sound for Pontiac among buyers.

The new name would be....Commodore! think of it Pontiac Commodore. That actually sounds powerful. It actually evokes good feelings, unlike the Pontiac Gran Prix, which is engrained in my mind at least, as being a cheap rental car with catastrophic proportions and a cheap dashboard. Most import buyers will feel the same way about GP, so Commodore would be a new start.

208795[/snapback]

the high performance version could be the commodore 64, and i bet it could play some kick ass games.

i.e. i don't think the name would be a big hit

[balthazar]

turbo20= >>"okay I am young so I don't remember nor do I care that Commodore was used before."<<

The name is extremely dated. You should care about that if you give a tin sh!t about Pontiac.

>>"I do, however, know of the GP. It is junk, has been so, for a while now. It was nice back in '99, then it was desirable. It lost its luster long ago..."<<

'Desirable' in '99 and 'junk' 5-7 years later?? Is there any relativity in your viewpoint, or are shades of variation always 'black or white'? And here I was thinking you were saying the GP hasn't been desirable for something like 15 years or whathaveyou. 5 years is nothing vs. the decades of great GPs going back to '62- the name may be bruised, but it's in no way in need of replacement, especially with something so awful as 'Commodore'.

>>"...many enthusiasts know the name from Holden so what's so LOL about that?"<<

There may be a tiny fraction of enthusiasts nation-wide that are cognicent of 'Commodore'; a miniscule, infetessimal, scattered group.... but nothing in the way of a demographic or a customer base, nothing that would equate to a sales advantage vs. the reactions of consumers to the ancient-sounding nameplate (Commodore 64 is a great example of the commercial appeal today).

If Pontiac is facing an uphill perception battle (and I'm not saying it isn't), fetid nameplates are not the way to go. The car itself may be fine & a good business case for success, but the styling has to be right as does the name. This isn't Australia and 'Commodore' isn't Pontiac.

[Mr.Krinkle]

pontiacs job isnt to lick the balls of import buyers. import buyers arent going to consider a pontiac with all the nice plastic and commodious interiors you pine about. naming it the commodore will only alienate whatever pontiac fans currently exist and cheese off the "import" crowds because it will be viewed as a ringer.

power and performance are the abundant traits to concern yourself with. if you cant get in a car without going "eww" and make that the focus you come off sounding pretentious and like you woke up on the snobby side of the bed.

pontiacs perform and may not rock everyones canoe but when you blow by some

jack off in a car thats massaging his nuts as you merge on the interstate the last thing on your mind is that piece of plastic that looks too high gloss.

no theyre not for everyone but all cars use cheap plastics in some way or another. cars with crappy interiors that people like will call them spartan. or utilitarian. or some other smug eupheism... as a matter of fact ive seen the same cheap looking plastics on acuras and toyotas and subarus. that just usually gets brushed aside though. another dog and pony show for us to enjoy.

Recent long-running Pontiac nameplates have all had excellent examples in their past; get the product more in line with what Pontiac traditionally has been and the luster will return to the names naturally This isn't Australia and 'Commodore' isn't Pontiac.

thats the point.

and rest assured once they do "fix" the horrendously mortifying (sarcasm) interiors there will be new gripes. maybe even some with substance.

bad seats are the only inexcusable part of the interior. and with HUD i might even overlook that.

[aaaantoine]

I've always wanted a Commodore...

Just not another Pontiac with Australian sheetmetal.

[turbo200]

turbo20= >>"okay I am young so I don't remember nor do I care that Commodore was used before."<<

The name is extremely dated. You should care about that if you give a tin sh!t about Pontiac.

>>"I do, however, know of the GP. It is junk, has been so, for a while now. It was nice back in '99, then it was desirable. It lost its luster long ago..."<<

'Desirable' in '99 and 'junk' 5-7 years later?? Is there any relativity in your viewpoint, or are shades of variation always 'black or white'? And here I was thinking you were saying the GP hasn't been desirable for something like 15 years or whathaveyou. 5 years is nothing vs. the decades of great GPs going back to '62- the name may be bruised, but it's in no way in need of replacement, especially with something so awful as 'Commodore'.

>>"...many enthusiasts know the name from Holden so what's so LOL about that?"<<

There may be a tiny fraction of enthusiasts nation-wide that are cognicent of 'Commodore'; a miniscule, infetessimal, scattered group.... but nothing in the way of a demographic or a customer base, nothing that would equate to a sales advantage vs. the reactions of consumers to the ancient-sounding nameplate (Commodore 64 is a great example of the commercial appeal today).

If Pontiac is facing an uphill perception battle (and I'm not saying it isn't), fetid nameplates are not the way to go. The car itself may be fine & a good business case for success, but the styling has to be right as does the name. This isn't Australia and 'Commodore' isn't Pontiac.

208963[/snapback]

How is the name Commodore dated compared to GP if most people cannot even remember a Commodore existed. This car is about changing perceptions, complementing Solstice and building a new image for Pontiac. Will a new Gran Prix achieve this? Not in the day and age where Grand Am and Gran Prix were not relevant choices in the marketplace, instead blue light specials.

I am a firm believer in not giving up on nameplates, but Pontiac is not well respected. People could care less about this brand, its history, or any of its product. Because the product has been underwhelming for a very long time.

In the late 90s, the GP was an attractive design, but it was clear it wasn't a modern design anymore, the overhangs and overall size of the car were not evoking a sporty image. It was desirable to some......more than the current GP has been, and especially because it's not really an improvement over that old car, the design became more garish and less appealing, the interior is unattractive and poorly laid out and has cheesy quality that's why a 25k GP sells for 20k, and the performance has been changed but not enough to keep up.

I still am not buying the Commodore is dated argument simply because it was a nameplate that was used in the 50s. So was the Bel Air, and no one was complaining when the name was being considered for the Impala's successor. That name has so much more recognition than "Commodore". And so one or two people on this forum respond to the name......it wasn't negative, and I will assure you if it's called Gran Prix so soon after the current one dies, there will be many who will look at the car negatively just based on the name.

I beleive Gran Prix can be cool again, but first Pontiac needs to be restored, and then give GP a chance to be recognized again. It's shameful the kind of car it is today, really. It may sound snobbish or arrogant or whatever you want to call it, there's no way I would own that kind of car.

I don't believe Commodore is the best name for the Pontiac sedan, there could be a better name for it, but it's not Tempest or Lemans or Bonneville, or anything in Pontiac's repertoire if you ask me.

[Croc]

Bonneville is much better.

And Commodore sucks for the reasons stated above...mainly because it brings back recollections of the Commodore 64 or disco...not what Pontiac needs.

Bonneville at least resonates with people positively because a) it wasn't a bad Pontiac or disgraceful EVER...and also because anyone who knows anything about performance knows about the Bonneville Salt Flats...which is definitely something that goes towards Pontiac's performance image.

I wouldn't have a problem with Phoenix or Tempest being used...mainly because most people have forgotten those cars and also they are like Tempe and Phoenix, Arizona...got some racing fans and history there...again performance.

[scharmer05]

Am I alone in thinking that "Tempest" sucks as a name?

[hyperv6]

Bonneville is much better.

And Commodore sucks for the reasons stated above...mainly because it brings back recollections of the Commodore 64 or disco...not what Pontiac needs.

Bonneville at least resonates with people positively because a) it wasn't a bad Pontiac or disgraceful EVER...and also because anyone who knows anything about performance knows about the Bonneville Salt Flats...which is definitely something that goes towards Pontiac's performance image.

I wouldn't have a problem with Phoenix or Tempest being used...mainly because most people have forgotten those cars and also they are like Tempe and Phoenix, Arizona...got some racing fans and history there...again performance.

209326[/snapback]

I can hear it now "It dose not look like a Bonneville"! or "It's too plain to be a Bonneville.

It is time for Pontiac to bring out a new name as they are not goint to will with using a old name.

GP is about the only thing they might get away with. Many old time Pontiac fans will complain and the new buyers justy won't care if it has a old name or not.

Best of both worlds is to go back and use a name from one of the many show cars over the years.

How about the X 400 as it was used on old show cars from 59-64 or Club de Mer?

A old name with little baggage from the past.

Lets face it any reused name is going to be hit complaints that it's not this or that. Just too much precieved ideas with old names.

Besides this is a new start for Pontiac time to give it a real original name.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I hate the "X-400" name. It's generic, has no passion, and actually manages to be one-thousand times worse than "G6" or "G8."

It's either stick with the Grand Prix name or start digging through the dictonary.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I loved the mid-size Bonnevilles of 1982-86-not totally sure why, but I'm a sucker for anything with DCL glass, even more so when its a G-Body sedan (or wagon). But if this car will be mid-size like it seems it will be, I favor calling it Grand Prix over Bonneville, the latter of which seems more appropriate for a large car, not a mid-sized one. Pontiac cannot get this car out soon enough-its doomed and almost as useless as Mercury (as it is now/said to be) is without it.

[DetroitNut90]

I hate the "X-400" name. It's generic, has no passion, and actually manages to be one-thousand times worse than "G6" or "G8."

It's either stick with the Grand Prix name or start digging through the dictonary.

209357[/snapback]

[hyperv6]

I hate the "X-400" name. It's generic, has no passion, and actually manages to be one-thousand times worse than "G6" or "G8."

It's either stick with the Grand Prix name or start digging through the dictonary.

209357[/snapback]

You can hate it all you like. I just used it as an example that Pontiac needs to use a new name so there is no baggage attached from ther previous model.

I only used the X-400 as a example as it was used on the prototypes of the Bonneville and GP in the late 50's and 60's.

Pontiac has many names they used on show cars and never went to production with them. The point I am makeing is if they use a old showcar name it will something old but new at the same time.

As for using GP or Bonneville to many non Pontiac buyers have a stereo type of what they think it is in most cases bad . Then you have the old time Pontiac fans who have a mind set on what each name means to them and the new car is going to be a giant leap from the old and for sure not the same car.

My whole point is if you want to advance Pontiac your going to have to do somethings new here. Lets face it the old cars just did not get it done and a new name always sparks the interest of the buying public. It is a old marketing trick and it is proven to work like it or not.

I am a long time Pontiac owner and love the old names but understand they names are tarnished. Pontiac in the past has used new name or little used named to bring a spark back to the line up.

The bottom line is that Pontiac needs to steal buyers back from other brands to survive and the old names will have a harder time doing it.

[Paolino]

I've always wanted a Commodore...

Just not another Pontiac with Australian sheetmetal.

209003[/snapback]

Now those plastics must be hard!

Am I alone in thinking that "Tempest" sucks as a name?

209328[/snapback]

No, definitely not alone on that one.

[turbo200]

You can hate it all you like. I just used it as an example that Pontiac needs to use a new name so there is no baggage attached from ther previous model.

I only used the X-400 as a example as it was used on the prototypes of the Bonneville and GP in the late 50's and 60's.

Pontiac has many names they used on show cars and never went to production with them. The point I am makeing is if they use a old showcar name it will something old but new at the same time.

As for using GP or Bonneville to many non Pontiac buyers have a stereo type of what they think it is in most cases bad . Then you have the old time Pontiac fans who have a mind set on what each name means to them and the new car is going to be a giant leap from the old and for sure not the same car.

My whole point is if you want to advance Pontiac your going to have to do somethings new here. Lets face it the old cars just did not get it done and a new name always sparks the interest of the buying public. It is a old marketing trick and it is proven to work like it or not.

I am a long time Pontiac owner and love the old names but understand they names are tarnished. Pontiac in the past has used new name or little used named to bring a spark back to the line up. 

The bottom line is that Pontiac needs to steal buyers back from other brands to survive and the old names will have a harder time doing it.

209467[/snapback]

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say, but I like the name Commodore, I don't know it sounds good.