It's Official: Commodore coming to US as a Pontiac

[Croc]

Seriously? Bring it as a Pontiac. It will sell.

If all y'all are gonna bitch about a very well-executed RWD sedan with modern styling being sold as a Pontiac just because it doesn't have a Pontiac "soul" coming from Australia...then just kill Pontiac now because mass America doesn't care about Pontiac, and the enthusiasts that do are rejecting the brand.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Croc

[Chazman]

If all y'all are gonna bitch about a very well-executed RWD sedan with modern styling being sold as a Pontiac just because it doesn't have a Pontiac "soul" coming from Australia...then just kill Pontiac now because mass America doesn't care about Pontiac, and the enthusiasts that do are rejecting the brand.

200113[/snapback]

Thank you. Well said.

[Croc]

Thank you. Well said.

200121[/snapback]

Your welcome...this thread's been pissing me off. *I* for one cannot wait to drive the new Pontiacs from down under.

[Flybrian]

Seriously?  Bring it as a Pontiac.  It will sell.

If all y'all are gonna bitch about a very well-executed RWD sedan with modern styling being sold as a Pontiac just because it doesn't have a Pontiac "soul" coming from Australia...then just kill Pontiac now because mass America doesn't care about Pontiac, and the enthusiasts that do are rejecting the brand.

200113[/snapback]

Your move.

[balthazar]

GM has sold Vauxhalls in the US. GM has sold Opels here. If the reports about Commodore are correct, then GM should have no trouble selling Holdens here. Or, am  I wrong?

Vauxhalls have not been sold in the U.S. since circa 1960, Opels since circa 1974. This is a solid enough track record to recommend bringing "Holden" to the U.S.??

Moltar is correct- if nothing else the cost to launch a brand with zero identity would be disasterous to GM.

[MisterMe]

..do you know how much it would cost to launch a new brand here???

Really? More expensive than Saturn? More expensive than Geo? More expensive than Scion? More expensive than Smart Car?

Heck, over the past few decades, there have been numerous new brands introduced to the American public. Some like Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti have been from pre-existing sellers. Others like Suzuki and and Kia were new to the US auto market. Most of these new brands came from corporatations with many fewer resources than General Motors.

[regfootball]

had the gto come out 5 years before it did, here, with a different name, it would have sold huge. aero WAS in. when the GTO hit, no.

the basic shape of the new VE's are dead on but I would expect some front end tweaking and taillight tweaking and some interior detail revisions at a minimum to be a Pontiac. My guess what they are thinking is, get the car here now as it is and by the time Oshawa is up to replicate this car, they can give it some new fenders maybe and a new dash.

What Lutz is doing is getting this thing here NOW to prove how fast GM can act.

edit-considering GM is still in financial problem mode, I can't see why anyone would think this a bad move. This car is immediately better than 90% of the cars GM sells (probably better than 100% of the cars it will sell at this price) and will tap into buyers that otherwise won't look at GM. It does not cancel any existing models and is already receiveing much positive press (i.e. free marketing buzz) for even considering it.

I think the G6 scratches some of the essence of what the new Pontiac should be, but with top notch performance, and no compromises, Pontiac will instantly gain status as the top American performance car manufacturer right away when this car hits and will instantly be on par with many of the supposedly superior Euro brands.

The GXP Bonne and GP did nothing for Pontiac in their war vs. others. This car is a direct hit. It makes all the Hondas and Toyos look like the stupid starch cars they are.

Edited October 2, 2006 by regfootball

[ShadowDog]

& Moltar & Booya..........see you turned it all around and flopped it upside down, or should I say downunder ?

My point was I want my American purchased GM's made in N America..........as Im sure Austrailians what their Austrailian GM's made in Austrailia, and as Im sure Japanese want their Japanese cars built in Japan.

Only we, here in America, are happy to purchase something built by the hands of others, screw our own children. In many instances it is simply because it is not built here................

Excuse me for showing any team spirit...........from now on Ill root for the guests.............like the rest of you aMEricans.

Diatribe...........Ill have to look that one up............its sounds important..........something American jobs, apparently are not...............

still confused ? 

199639[/snapback]

So, GM would have better spent its money buying Holden just to dissect it, selling it off in pieces to the highest bidder, as opposed to utilizing and refining Holden's and GM's technology and style on various shores?

Why buy Holden then anyway? Why did GM buy all of its current divisions those many years ago? The economy of the global scale prevents GM from using 'home-grown' manufacturing and assembly. The cost of living in North America demands higher pay and larger union demands. Here's a product, here's where it's built, here it comes to our shores for everyone to buy. At least Holden can benefit from being just another division...just like Pontiac, or Chevrolet, or Buick, or Oldsmobile; however, I suppose those don't count 'just because' they're on American soil. That stance is old-school thinking. If you're concerned about what GM chooses to do with the American public as potential employees, you'd best change your argument to suggest that purchasing auto companies to broaden GM's horizon for technology and other ideas is the main problem. ...or would it make more sense to get the plans for the car, spend millions to adjust factories and labor, build the car with overpaid and benefit-fund-leeching employment, and sell the product for no profit. That is the American way, after all.

[regfootball]

I don't care if it's made in Australia.  It needs to look like a Pontiac.

199806[/snapback]

if this is what you mean, then, as Dr. Evil would say,

"MMMMM, NO...Scott"

[ShadowDog]

if this is what you mean, then, as Dr. Evil would say,

"MMMMM, NO...Scott"

200229[/snapback]

I was thinking the same thing. My question would be just how many people even have any clue as to the heritage style of the domestic product? As I can see it, domestic style today is a melting pot of heritage cues spanning decades into the history that's been buried with my grandfather. This is supposed to attract the 20/30-something buyer from an import after having absolutely no clue as to even what cars of the past you all suggest GM should consider naming it?

Screw it...call it a G8, for all it matters. I say this because I wonder about the ratio of enthusiasts to new-to-GM car buyers who could tell the difference anyway.

[trinacriabob]

Is the GP gone as a result of this or will it co-exist? I think there would be some cannabalization (is that a proper derivative of the word?) Or is the GP set for mid-cyle enhancement along with the LaCrosse? I'm wondering if the Pontiac line-up is starting to get a little crowded. It is a nice car, though. It just needs to be Pontiac-ed up a little.

Edited October 2, 2006 by trinacriabob

[regfootball]

i would call it G8. let the grand prix remain

[Croc]

Your move.

200156[/snapback]

I think you missed the part of my post about modern styling. The GTO looked like a 1997 Grand Prix at introduction. The Commodore does not.

Your move.

[Cory Wolfe]

I stopped liking the grand Prix in 2004, but I love the previous model. In fact, I own a 98 GTP coupe. I would rather have the un-Pontiac like Commodore, than a 2004 and up Grand Prix. I would rather have the Commodore than pretty much all of Pontiacs current line up. And the 2004 and up Grand Prix is a disaster. 55% are fleet sales. Bring on the Commodore. The G6 coupe looks like an Infiniti to me, I don't like it. The sedan looks better, but not much. The Torana and Commodore blow both the G6 and Grand Prix away, styling wise. 4 out of 5 cars I have owned in my life have been Pontiacs. If Pontiac keeps its current trend, my next car wont be a Pontiac. In fact, the only Pontiac I want right now, is a Holden, the GTO.

199912[/snapback]

Seriously?  Bring it as a Pontiac.  It will sell.

If all y'all are gonna bitch about a very well-executed RWD sedan with modern styling being sold as a Pontiac just because it doesn't have a Pontiac "soul" coming from Australia...then just kill Pontiac now because mass America doesn't care about Pontiac, and the enthusiasts that do are rejecting the brand.

200113[/snapback]

Seriously... some people need stop crying over it. I think the Commodore looks better than the Grand Prix, G6, current GTO, etc. And the fact that Pontiac will be getting a competitive RWD sedan, it shouldn't matter what it looks like. This coming from a more of a Pontiac fan than some of you will ever be. I'd rather have Pontiac alive, than dead.

[red]

It will be interesting to see what develops of this...a rebadge? a Pontiac concept? an announcement?

The new RWD Holden vehicles have great proportions, stance, and build quality. However, the styling is extremely conservative and quite derivative. This adds to an overall look that is aggressive and expensive-looking, but not something very forward-thinking.

Capturing the positives of the current Aussie cars (proportions, stance, build quality, and interior quality) and incorporating some innovative, American styling...all at a valuable price...and you've got the knockout product GMNA needs. Looking forward to further developments on this...

[ocnblu]

Now is not the time to lose focus on design. Now is the time to hit them out of the park. The GTO was rushed to US market and was met with pretty much a collective yawn... due to styling. Even with the solid RWD chassis and awesome LS V8. That's enough to prove to me that brand DNA is of paramount importance. It's the enthusiasts that start the buzz and buy the first cars that hit the ground... that's how word gets out.

[douglask]

2. Efficiency. It no longer makes sense to make the same car all over the world. Opel GTs are made here in the US plant that makes Skys & Solstices. The Saturn Ion replacement will be made in Germany. A car like the Comodore can be made in Australia. The only way an El Camino will come back is via Australia. Australia gets large F series Ford trucks from the US.

199786[/snapback]

The RHD Ford F-series trucks sold in Australia are from Brazil, they're cheaper and supposedly have better build quality than the US models.

Neither Holden or Ford currently sell any North American built vehicles in Australia, but they are large importers of parts.

Chryslers and Jeeps sold in Australia are built at the Magna Steyr manufacturing facility in Graz, Austria.

As far as I know, the Nissan Murano and Honda Accord & Odyssey are the only US built vehicles currently sold in Australia.

[Croc]

Now is not the time to lose focus on design.  Now is the time to hit them out of the park.  The GTO was rushed to US market and was met with pretty much a collective yawn... due to styling.  Even with the solid RWD chassis and awesome LS V8.  That's enough to prove to me that brand DNA is of paramount importance.  It's the enthusiasts that start the buzz and buy the first cars that hit the ground... that's how word gets out.

200291[/snapback]

Except the GTO looked JUST LIKE the Grand prix...from 1997. dated styling was the problem. the GTO had all the Pontisc design DNA.

[Intrepidation]

It's funny how so many of you are bitching about the design when e have yet to even see what the car will look like as a Pontiac. Even if it is just a Commodore with a Pontiac grill and badges...who cars? it looks good and better than anything in the lineup save the Solstice. How do you guys define a Pontiac's looks? Aztek? Grand Prix? G6? First 2 are ugly and teh third looks Japanese. At least this is RWD, and will no doubt handle well. Quit yer bitchin' and be thankful Pontiac is at least getting an RWD car!

[Flybrian]

It's funny how so many of you are bitching about the design when e have yet to even see what the car will look like as  a Pontiac. Even if it is just a Commodore with a Pontiac grill and badges...who cars? it looks good and better than anything in the lineup save the Solstice. How do you guys define a Pontiac's looks? Aztek? Grand Prix? G6? First 2 are ugly and teh third looks Japanese. At least this is RWD, and will no doubt handle well. Quit yer bitchin' and be thankful Pontiac is at least getting an RWD car!

200357[/snapback]

We're afraid of a GTO redux. And with Pontiac teetering on the brink, can you really blame us? I wouldn't call it bitching; I'd call it expressed concern.

[Camino LS6]

must... keep.... quiet....

AHHHHHHHHH

[Robert Hall]

We're afraid of a GTO redux. And with Pontiac teetering on the brink, can you really blame us? I wouldn't call it bitching; I'd call it expressed concern.

200360[/snapback]

Yeah, but the GTO was a clean, modern design..it was just the fogeys stuck in 1965 and people that never buy new cars that were bitching about the non-retro styling...

[Cory Wolfe]

Funny that a Pontiac fan isnt bitching.

[sciguy_0504]

Well then, hold your car up as pure Pontiac.  I too love that generation of GP, even with FWD.  The hardware, interior and (reportedly) the driving dynamics of the Commodore would fit well as a US-brand GM car, but the exterior styling... sorry bud, I am not giving up on this.  It would be invisible over here.  Style sells cars.  We've seen the Camaro, we know GM still knows how to style a car to fit its brand.  They should not give up on Pontiac.

I'm done with this.  No way I'm changing my mind, but, as has been pointed out in this thread, we don't have a clue yet what this car will look like.  So I will simmer down until I have a real reason to cry foul.  I'm just not thinking there's enough time to rebrand this car... rebadge, yes, but not rebrand.

199974[/snapback]

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm just not thinking there's enough time to rebrand this car... rebadge, yes, but not rebrand.

199974[/snapback]

What makes you think GM only started thinking about this 2 months ago?

[Camino LS6]

What makes you think GM only started thinking about this 2 months ago?

200415[/snapback]

You read my mind on that one,Oldsmoboi.

[Croc]

You read my mind on that one,Oldsmoboi.

200420[/snapback]

No $h!...and even if it were a straight rebadge...it's a hell of a lot more modern of a package than the GTO was...oh yea...and no gas tank in the trunk!

[MisterMe]

What makes you think GM only started thinking about this 2 months ago?

It may not have been two months, but it has not been much longer than that. Think a month or so before the October 2006 issue of Motor Trend went to bed. Whether or not GM was thinking about it, Holden could not have committed the resources to Americanize the Commodore on spec. The real work could go forward only after Lutz gave the go ahead.

[Drew Dowdell]

It may not have been two months, but it has not been much longer than that. Think a month or so before the October 2006 issue of Motor Trend went to bed. Whether or not GM was thinking about it, Holden could not have committed the resources to Americanize the Commodore on spec. The real work could go forward only after Lutz gave the go ahead.

200459[/snapback]

The Commodore is already Americanized. It's gas tank is in the right place and the LHD models are already developed. They are using engines that are already certified for the U.S. the only thing it needs is an "American" skin. That part, I'm sure, was thought about long ago.... otherwise, what was the point of "Americanizing" the rest of the car?

[hyperv6]

I feel at this point too many are underestimating GM on this one.

Too many don't want to understand this car is all new better funded and Lutz will get from the start what he wants.

This car from the start was considered to also be a Pontiac and will reflect it in the final product.

The way the GTO was was not what they wanted at the time but all they could afford with no budget inplace to support a new car line.

Keep in mind they brought that car here on the budget of a minor face lift.

If you don't believe GM will get this right look around and many of the things Lutz started 5 years ago are just hitting the market now and all have been positive.

How many were wrong on the HHR selling as well as it has?

[MisterMe]

....

Keep in mind they brought that car here on the budget of a minor face lift.

Is this supposed to reassure me?

If you don't believe GM will get this right look around and many of the things Lutz started 5 years ago are just hitting the market now and all have been positive.

Five years ago, Lutz was not at GM. He was CEO of Exide Corporation.

[ocnblu]

Chevrolet is my first love, but they are doing fine, and seem to be on track for their very own, clearly branded Zetas. Pontiac is my second love. The division holds a different, but very important part of my heart. If this news article holds true, it appears that GM is not investing in dedicated design for Pontiac, but sees the division as worthy only of a rebadge for a car that is of (imo) paramount importance to the longterm health of the brand.

I said I was going to simmer down, but I haven't been able to. Oldsmobile died because of poor management. I don't want to see a second failed attempt to import an Australian car and badge it a Pontiac held up by GM management as "proof" that the brand is better off dead. I dearly want this car to succeed, and to do that, I feel it must fit the brand, it must look the part, even if it drives fantastically as the recently departed GTO certainly did, and does.

Edited October 2, 2006 by ocnblu

[Northstar]

Five years ago, Lutz was not at GM. He was CEO of Exide Corporation.

200497[/snapback]

No? Lutz came in Sept. 2001.

[turbo200]

the interior of the new Commodore is fantastic, better, at least from pictures, and seemingly having better fit, again from pictures, than any other GM interior produced.

This alone is a good reason to bring the car here. The GTO's styling has done nothing to help Pontiac's cause, because it looks like every other disaster Pontiac that came before it, and it doesn't look expensive. But the GTO car did fantastic things for Pontiac's reputation. Just having them on the road, and having people know what the quality, power, and workmanship, and to have them revered, is a good enough reason for the GTO to have existed. We could have had ten other Azteks and Torrents, so I don't see a reason to complain for it coming here.

The Zeta Commodore looks phenomonal on the outside. It does not match what we would all like to see as Pontiac passion, in its current form it's more of a Saturn than anything else. However, if they can bring it here and help Pontiac's rep a little, flying fantastic horses! If they can change the exterior, the big if, to more rounly match Pontiac's themes, perhaps stacked headlamps or perhaps a big beak around the front fascia, something that looks modern and refined but still screams at you, even more flying horses!

[turbo200]

Chevrolet is my first love, but they are doing fine, and seem to be on track for their very own, clearly branded Zetas.  Pontiac is my second love.  The division holds a different, but very important part of my heart. 

200511[/snapback]

get over your heart, it doesn know how to run a company.

[Croc]

get over your heart, it doesn know how to run a company.

200587[/snapback]

Quoted for truthiness.

[razoredge]

get over your heart, it doesn know how to run a company.

200587[/snapback]

and neither has or does GM's management for the past decades, why ? because they ran it with economics over product...............in oter words..........no heart

[razoredge]

This thing ?

you have got to be kiddin me ? GM's been taking a bash over styling and this is not the answer. This is not going to drag people away from Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infinity or even Mazda or Acura...What is this GTO II ?

[razoredge]

GTO meets Cobalt ?

Lead not Follow !

[razoredge]

Ah...yea....you better build them in Australia and bring them over 5000 at a time, see how it goes.............

[scharmer05]

razor, 1, maybe 2 post in a row please

[MisterMe]

No? Lutz came in Sept. 2001.

According to his biography, Lutz was named GM vice-president of product development in September 2001 and Chairman of GM North America in November 2001. However, he remained CEO of Exide Corporation until he resigned that position in May 2002.

[Northstar]

Very well, then he held both postitions five years ago.

[pow]

This thing ?

you have got to be kiddin me ? GM's been taking a bash over styling and this is not the answer. This is not going to drag people away from Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infinity or even Mazda or Acura...What is this GTO II ?

200627[/snapback]

Substance > all

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

While I'm very happy to have a RWD Pontiac sedan, I'm less than thrilled by the prospect of another rebadged Holden.  Pontiac needs a car of their own, styled by Americans with a feel for Pontiac's very proud history.  The Australian cars, while handsome, are too bland to wear the Pontiac name.  This will be GTO mk II, I fear.

I really hope I'm wrong.

On the prospect of the smaller RWD architecture, that is fantastic news.  Very promising.

199064[/snapback]

I agree 100%...

The LAST thing Pontiac needs is another 'Holden with a twin grille'

If it's going to be as lame in the looks department as the GTO (Which in all other respects is an awesome car) then don't even bother.

Pontiac is supposed to be the "Excitement" and "bad boy" division of GM... So what do they do? Design a bad ass Camaro for Chevrolet, then give Pontiac a car that should be a Buick, if even that.

[z28luvr01]

I'm not gonna get worked up just yet. There are too many variables that aren't definite yet.

- We don't know where it will be built.

- We don't know if we're getting a rebadged Commodore or something with more extensive revisions.

- We don't even know if it's a Pontiac (though Chicago is typically the Pontiac show)

To add some fuel to the discussion, consider all of this:

- Oshawa is obviously going to make more than just Camaros.

- We know GM was toying with the idea of building the Monaro here for export to Australia.

- GM would have to be incredibly stupid not to listen to the complaints re: the GTO styling (though personally I'm a fan of it).

What am I getting at? Well, this comes from someone with no connections to the industry, someone who just likes to put puzzle pieces together whether they fit or not. I'm going with the risky choice: that we'll be getting a US-built Pontiac based on the Commodore but won't be a rebadge. Again, no insider info, so don't quote me.

[TKR]

We now have customers looking at these cars as genuine alternatives to Nissan Maximas and used BMW's etc. This car drives like no Holden before it and looks way better in the metal than the photos convey.

I'm sure GM will look past the likes of Razor etc and Pontiac will pick up a whole new bunch of customers. After all, before the GTO (which people seem to either love or hate) Pontiac was nearly dead. At least it created some excitment. I guess you want more dramatic styling like the Aztek?

Edited October 3, 2006 by TKR

[ocnblu]

No, like the '63 Grand Prix, '66 Catalina 2+2, '67 GTO, '70 GTO, '70 Firebird 400, '06 Solstice, or '06 G6 coupe. It does not have to be retro, it just has to be a continuance. It has to fit the brand. Pontiac is not Holden. Edited October 3, 2006 by ocnblu

[hyperv6]

I'm not gonna get worked up just yet. There are too many variables that aren't definite yet.

- We don't know where it will be built.

- We don't know if we're getting a rebadged Commodore or something with more extensive revisions.

- We don't even know if it's a Pontiac (though Chicago is typically the Pontiac show)

To add some fuel to the discussion, consider all of this:

- Oshawa is obviously going to make more than just Camaros.

- We know GM was toying with the idea of building the Monaro here for export to Australia.

- GM would have to be incredibly stupid not to listen to the complaints re: the GTO styling (though personally I'm a fan of it).

What am I getting at? Well, this comes from someone with no connections to the industry, someone who just likes to put puzzle pieces together whether they fit or not. I'm going with the risky choice: that we'll be getting a US-built Pontiac based on the Commodore but won't be a rebadge. Again, no insider info, so don't quote me.

200742[/snapback]

Finally a stable and logical coment here, thank you! None of us here have all the facts and should not get all bent out of shape on this yet.

I agree, the GM we have today is much smarter than we are used to and I don't expect them to not learn from their past. It is a matter of survival at this point.

The Solstice is everything the Fiero program was not. The made an extra effort not to repeat the same errors they made FIero and all is good. The Camaro program is everything the 4th genb was not and they are making sure not to repeat the same misakes there.

As for Lutz no matter how you want to argue he has been at GM for 5 years so what is the point of arguing this point? It changes nothing.

I think we all should sit back and chill and start talking about the new little RWD car and what we would like to see at Pontiac. As for the now this whole topic is going no where.

[MisterMe]

I'm not gonna get worked up just yet. There are too many variables that aren't definite yet.

- We don't know where it will be built.

- We don't know if we're getting a rebadged Commodore or something with more extensive revisions.

- We don't even know if it's a Pontiac (though Chicago is typically the Pontiac show)

...

If you don't know, it is only because you have not been paying attention. Read and be wise.