It's Official: Commodore coming to US as a Pontiac

[CreativeVision]

I hope they (Pontiac) come up with some decent looking wheels and not just one to choose from.  The base wheel for the GTO was kind of bland where as the optional wheel looked alot better.  Wheels do alot to personalize your ride. If they want it to compete with BMW, at least let it look the part.

199283[/snapback]

That's what the aftermarket is for...What you think would look good, isn't necessarily for everyone.

[CreativeVision]

I'm not up on my Holden stats...what does this compare to size wise in the GM lineup currently? Slightly shorter than current day GP?

I hope they retain the interior, I personally think it looks upscale but still sporty. Speaking of interior...this is one of the biggest factors in my future purchase, so how roomy is this car. Will a 6' tall person be able to stretch out their legs straight to hit the pedals, with another 6 footer directly behind them?

Lastly if this does come out in '07, it will almost have to be a 4th Qtr '08MY right? No chance of it sooner than this?

[MisterMe]

....

Lets face it slapping a bird on the hood or cladding worked well in the 70's and 80's but it's not going to work today. Lets face it if BMW can sell their what I term plain looking cars Pontiac can find a way too. Good marketing goes a long way to sell cars and Pontiac has had little good marketing of late.

The Point is Pontiac needs to appeal to all performance buyers not just the one who like screaming chickens and cladding.

This is from a long time Pontiac owner and fan.

....

The Screaming Chicken and cladding are long gone. No one here is begging for their return. ocnblu is exactly correct. The car has to make an emotional connection with the buyer. This new Commodore with the Pontiac beak will be upmarket of Pontiac's current offerings. Buyers who spend that kind of money want more than dependable transportation. They want cars that stir their blood and call attention to their drivers. The prospective car on the cover of the October 2006 issue of Motor Trend does not cut the mustard.

[hyperv6]

hyper, I agree wholeheartedly about cladding and screaming chickens.  I am much more a fan of the clean, stylish Pontiacs than the flamboyant, overdecorated ones.  It's just that the Holden does not even whisper Pontiac to me.

199318[/snapback]

I guess I am tired of hearing the b!t%hinf that that does not look like a Pontiac or GTO. The fact is Pontiac means a lot of different things to many different people.

Take the last GTO. Many said it did not look like a GTO. I would ask Pontiac owners what does a GTO look like? I got many different replys as most were or had been owners of the car in the past. Some liked the 1st gen others like the 2nd gen.

I could not get a agreement on which one they should have copied.

The division within Pontiac is nothing new as in the POCI many don't think there has been a real Pontiac built since 1979 and the last 400 rolled off the line.

Thoes that are living in the past are foolish for not accepting the new cars for one they are losing potential new members to the club. They also are missing some really fun to drive great cars. These same point are being lost on the new Holden.

Second, few take in consideration the GTO was what it was because Bob Lutz came to GM and needed a RWD performance car for a Division that had none. The plain hard fact was he also had no money or time to get a new car built. He did the best he could with little or nothing to bring us the GTO. It was nothing but a patch in a line up done on a shoestring budget.

The GTO may not have been a run away hit but it was better than a empty showroom.

Many didn't understand the money was so tight that the duel pipes and hood scoops had to wait till 2005 because they had no funds to put them on the 04. Money really was that tight. Same for the gas tank in the trunk.

I expect Bob will be given the proper funds this time to make the new car a true Pontiac. But in the end but many will still complain no mattrer what he does.

At this point I am just glad they are going to give us the RWD V8 we have been wanting for years. I hope the new car appeals to the market not just Pontiac fans as we need to bring in and make more Pontiac fans for the brand to survive.

As for the cover of Motor Trend that is not GM's work so no one should be alarmed by that.

Besides who here other than a few members from down under have seen the new car in person let lone drive one yet. Lets see what Pontiac is really going to offer before we condem them. At this point we know it will be base on the Holen and that is about it.

It is a bit too early to jump the couch. Let's let Bob speak this winter and reveal what really is going to happen before we start complaining.

[big blue]

Good post. I agree, it really is too soon to be going nuts. That does show there's a lot of us that care about Pontiac but there's an even bigger portion of the population that doesn't care and hopefully this new addition to the brand will bring in customers one way or another. What type of customer? Who cares, money doesn't discriminate and neither will GM. Pontiac needs buyers so its future can be secured and that's what I care about.

[Drew Dowdell]

There we go.

If this is a light badge-job for $35-40k, count me out. I'd rather have another V6, FWD Bonneville like what's sitting outside right now. At least it isn't boring.

199216[/snapback]

[CreativeVision]

Amen! I'm not even a GM customer yet, but this post has created some excitement (no pun intended) for me as a potential candidate for my next vehicle in about a year. The Aura did the same thing for me when it was introduced. GM is making some moves to open the eyes of the public that otherwise were sealed shut or only looking at imports. For their sake I hope they look past trying to appeal to only the GM faithful and continue to broaden their customer base. If not, we'll all be saying goodbye to the no. 1 spot for a long time.

[mot76]

That's what the aftermarket is for...What you think would look good, isn't necessarily for everyone.

199348[/snapback]

I agree with that, but it would be nice to be able to have a nice factory selection, since some of us don't have or shouldn't have to spend an extra grand to shell out on aftermarket wheels.

[Robert Hall]

Cool..I'm glad to see they are doing this...this is the kind of car that would get me to consider buying a Pontiac...it has serious hardware-- RWD, V8, 6-spd manual, IRS, and clean, modern styling (leave off the wing and front airdam, paint it dark gray)---something serious and fun to drive like a BMW sports sedan but at a more affordable price point.

This could be a Very Good Thing, IMHO.

Edited September 30, 2006 by moltar

[Flybrian]

199510[/snapback]

I'd accept this before that...

More Buick cues is more better. Also, the interior needs a slight rework before it can be a proper Buick, namely moving the space-robbing, inefficient handbrake to the floor where it belongs as well as a less obtuse radio head unit.

[razoredge]

Ho hum, another Austrailian Pontiac ? Was Pontiac American or Austrailian ? Thats right, it doesnt matter anymore, thats why we are about to drop all country names and live under one world government............right ? or should I say richt ?

Look, I like the rest of the world, in their place, not mine. Last I checked this is America and I was born an American. With all that, Im pretty sure the reason Im a GM man is because they are built on my continent by my fellow man. If its not, its not a Pontiac, or a Buick, its a bird by another name. At which point I no longer see why it matters. Might as well drive a Toyota, at least then you know what you are driving.

[Robert Hall]

Ho hum, another Austrailian Pontiac ? Was Pontiac American or Austrailian ? Thats right, it doesnt matter anymore, thats why we are about to drop all country names and live under one world government............right ? or should I say richt ?

Look, I like the rest of the world, in their place, not mine. Last I checked this is America and I was born an American. With all that, Im pretty sure the reason Im a GM man is because they are built on my continent by my fellow man. If its not, its not a Pontiac, or a Buick, its a bird by another name. At which point I no longer see why it matters. Might as well drive a Toyota, at least then you know what you are driving.

199568[/snapback]

Where it is built doesn't matter..last time I checked, Holden was a GM brand, and has been for a long time...this is a GM car, through and through....remember GM is a big global company, that builds vehicles all over. What about the current GMs built in Canada or Mexico and sold in the US?

Seriously, I don't see why it matters where a consumer product is manufactured...I don't care where my shirts are made, my TV, etc..we are living in a global economy, and stuff is made all over..

Edited September 30, 2006 by moltar

[razoredge]

global economy ? so they say, global world, not me, I live in the United States of America. If who, what, why, where and when doesnt matter.............why does Toyota or Honda matter ? You think I like GM becasue they made the Camaro or Riviera ? No I like GM because they have been the home team. When you go to a game, it doesnt matter who wins, home or guests ?

Holdens have been GM's made in Austrailia for the Austrailian market, all makes sense. Lets stop making Holdens in Austrailia and make them in the US and ship them to the Aussies...............I bet that would fly..............like $h! hittin the fan.

Lets stop making Toyotas in Japan and sell them the ones built in the US...........I bet that would go over with a big splash...............just like the American fleet in Pearl Harbor

Get a clue, the only country thats making excuses for loosing jobs due to "a global economy" is America, the rest of the world is laughing at we complacent gumby puppet idiots. We just now are trying to make inroads into Europe with American "names" built in Europe.

If a name is all your selling me, Im not interested.

[Flybrian]

I think I speak for most when I say buying an Australian-built GM-owned Holden is a galaxy away from buying a Japanese built, Japanese-owned car.

Not only is it supporting our company, its supporting a similar nation, one that is one of our diehard allies. I have no objection to supporting our Australian brothers just as I have no objection supporting our Canadian brothers.

[Robert Hall]

I think I speak for most when I say buying an Australian-built GM-owned Holden is a galaxy away from buying a Japanese built, Japanese-owned car.

Not only is it supporting our company, its supporting a similar nation, one that is one of our diehard allies. I have no objection to supporting our Australian brothers just as I have no objection supporting our Canadian brothers.

199600[/snapback]

Agreed... look at all the GMs built in Canada for the US market..or Mexico.. Razor's endless diatribe gets old..I wish he would drop it and contribute something positive..

[FAPTurbo]

Yo razor, half my family is Australian, and I've been there plenty of times. You'd be surprised how in many ways the country is similar to America. In fact, many people there are upset with the Malaysians and Indonesians who are exporting cheap, crappy vehicles by the boatload, and how the Domestic automakers there are feeling the pinch from Japan as well.

My cousin is a diehard Ford fan, and spends much of his weekend tuning and upgrading his old Ford Falcon, much like many people on this continent do the same.

They also love North American cars in Australia. The Commodore SS out there is coveted not only because it's a mean machine, but because it has the Corvette engine in it.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Captainbooyah

[Camino LS6]

Holden continued to build "american" cars long after America forgot how.

Holden deserves all of the accolades it gets, and their interiors put ALL GMNA interiors to shame.

I love my GTO. Not because it says GTO on it, but because it is a GREAT car.

Holden is taking GMNA to school: and that's a very good thing.

[razoredge]

I think I speak for most when I say buying an Australian-built GM-owned Holden is a galaxy away from buying a Japanese built, Japanese-owned car.

Not only is it supporting our company, its supporting a similar nation, one that is one of our diehard allies. I have no objection to supporting our Australian brothers just as I have no objection supporting our Canadian brothers.

199600[/snapback]

& Moltar & Booya..........see you turned it all around and flopped it upside down, or should I say downunder ?

My point was I want my American purchased GM's made in N America..........as Im sure Austrailians what their Austrailian GM's made in Austrailia, and as Im sure Japanese want their Japanese cars built in Japan.

Only we, here in America, are happy to purchase something built by the hands of others, screw our own children. In many instances it is simply because it is not built here................

Excuse me for showing any team spirit...........from now on Ill root for the guests.............like the rest of you aMEricans.

Diatribe...........Ill have to look that one up............its sounds important..........something American jobs, apparently are not...............

still confused ?

[Satty]

American workers are expensive, they make a lot more than their foreign counterparts, not to mention health care, pensions, etc. So quit blaming Americans and blame America for forcing its industries to go overseas in order to maintain profit.

[razoredge]

OK, how about this ? Im thinking of ways to get some sinkage. Everyone was complaining about "wheres the 3.6". I said "it appears there is a shortage" "wheres the plant to build the 3.6 in this country" Now the 3.6 will be built in this country and all is fine with me. No, Im not taking credit for the thought, Im sure it was already in place.

making sence yet ?

Wanna use the platform ? ITs a good platform ? Good ! Design the body shell and build the car here in the united States so we can keep our brothern in work.

[razoredge]

Satty say "American workers are expensive, they make a lot more than their foreign counterparts, not to mention health care, pensions, etc. So quit blaming Americans and blame America for forcing its industries to go overseas in order to maintain profit."

the edge say

"American executives and their buddies are expensive, they make way more than the Americans that actually get the job done, not to mention their fat bonus's, fat retirement plans and lifetime healthcare. So quit blaming the American workforce for having to survive and look out for themselves in this expensive country whose economy is forced by those that make the big bucks. What do you want us all to do, move overseas.........................."

:AH-HA_wink:

Edited September 30, 2006 by razoredge

[ocnblu]

The VE interior is beautiful, I wouldn't change it for US consumption (and an interior design isn't as nationally-identified as an exterior)... it's the exterior that is just wrong for our US brands to simply rebadge. I want my GM car to look American, not generic European. The only things that excite me about the exterior of these cars are the stance, the proportions, the lower front fascia, and the wheels, other than that... blahhh...

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I was about to say-I was hoping that the Pontiac 'Commodore' would not be a rebadge-it was too boring looking and Pontiac does need unique product, but with Pontiac styling, not boring Holden styling. Either way, I'm excited and can't wait to see this concept car-hopefully it will retain the Grand Prix badge-it would be perfect, more or less for it. Now would this car be sedan only, or would there be a coupe and/or short-tail sports wagon body style as well? Offer it in SV6, SV8, GT, GTP, and if necessary, GXP trim levels, with Commodore's powertrains, plus a 5300 V-8 in between the 3.6-liter HF V-6 and 6000 V-8's.

[sciguy_0504]

Satty say "American workers are expensive, they make a lot more than their foreign counterparts, not to mention health care, pensions, etc. So quit blaming Americans and blame America for forcing its industries to go overseas in order to maintain profit."

the edge say

"American executives and their buddies are expensive, they make way more than the Americans that actually get the job done, not to mention their fat bonus's, fat retirement plans and lifetime healthcare. So quit blaming the American workforce for having to survive and look out for themselves in this expensive country whose economy is forced by those that make the big bucks. What do you want us all to do, move overseas.........................."

:AH-HA_wink:

199644[/snapback]

So ten executives who each make $10,000,000 a year, mostly in stock options, not real cash, do not take as much money away from a company as 100,000 workers each making $60,000 plus health insurance and a fully-funded pension?

Edit: All you need to do is study GM to realize your point is mute.

Edited October 1, 2006 by sciguy_0504

[Drew Dowdell]

moot, not mute

[razoredge]

Oh............OK................its alright then...........I see...........just imagination.........

[razoredge]

All one needs to do is study a few select neighborhoods and they would quickly get the picture, unless they already live there, then its all not true..............

[ponchoman49]

While I'm very happy to have a RWD Pontiac sedan, I'm less than thrilled by the prospect of another rebadged Holden.  Pontiac needs a car of their own, styled by Americans with a feel for Pontiac's very proud history.  The Australian cars, while handsome, are too bland to wear the Pontiac name.  This will be GTO mk II, I fear.

I really hope I'm wrong.

Agreed 100%.

199073[/snapback]

I agree 200%

[network engineer]

Forget what Drive says, they have a parochial slant that thinks nothing good can come out of America. I will repeat, Lutz did not say what you will see in Chicago. The very most you can be certain of is some kind of announcement re the new global rwd program. You do not know what form it will take, which brand, manufactured where and introduced when.

199274[/snapback]

I think we can assume that development was never "really" stopped to get the GMT900's out the door. I think we'll be seeing a 2007 Chevy Impalla SS.

[Northstar]

I think we can assume that development was never "really" stopped to get the GMT900's out the door.  I think we'll be seeing a 2007 Chevy Impalla SS.

199734[/snapback]

We will, it's already out, and it's the same as the 2006 SS. I think a 2010 RWD Impala SS is much more likely.

[guionM]

& Moltar & Booya..........see you turned it all around and flopped it upside down, or should I say downunder ?

My point was I want my American purchased GM's made in N America..........as Im sure Austrailians what their Austrailian GM's made in Austrailia, and as Im sure Japanese want their Japanese cars built in Japan.

Only we, here in America, are happy to purchase something built by the hands of others, screw our own children. In many instances it is simply because it is not built here................

Excuse me for showing any team spirit...........from now on Ill root for the guests.............like the rest of you aMEricans.

Diatribe...........Ill have to look that one up............its sounds important..........something American jobs, apparently are not...............

still confused ? 

199639[/snapback]

Hardly team spirt.

Holden IS GM.

We need the car here.

They already make the car, so they ship it here.

Costs GM nothing but government testing.

GM makes money.

Alternative?

GM sets up plant....$$$

GM makes arrangements with US based OEM....$$$

GM has to test US based OEM parts....$$$

GM hires & trains workforce and pays appropriate taxes and fees....$$$

GM buys machinary and stampings....$$$$

GM still has to do government testing....$$$

.....and still sells the same number of cars, but now they make far less or actually loose money on the car.

As for the rest of your world outlook, there is no way to profess you know what other countries want if you've never been there.

Wanna use the platform ? ITs a good platform ? Good ! Design the body shell and build the car here in the united States so we can keep our brothern in work.

199642[/snapback]

Doesn't work that way in the real world. Here's how it does work:

1. Automation. It has taken more jobs in the automotive assembly line than transporting production overseas.

2. Efficiency. It no longer makes sense to make the same car all over the world. Opel GTs are made here in the US plant that makes Skys & Solstices. The Saturn Ion replacement will be made in Germany. A car like the Comodore can be made in Australia. The only way an El Camino will come back is via Australia. Australia gets large F series Ford trucks from the US.

3. Costs. Australia has national health care. So does Canada. So does almost every country in western Europe. That means the automaker in that country doesn't have to pay. GM is in a crisis right now because in the old days it took, say, 3 people to do a task on the assembly line. Today, those 3 are retired, and GM has to pay their health care costs in addition to a pension. The only way they can do it is to have 1 person doing their job today, and cut other costs whereever they can. As those people die out, GM's health care burden becomes lighter since it has fewer employees.

4. Finally, broader sales. The US car market is saturated. The only way to keep our people working is to sell to other countries. That's the goal of free trade. Take China for instance. It has 1 billion people. Even if only 10% of the population can afford cars, that's already a market that's bigger than here in the US. Closer to the subject, Australia exports Aussie built cars to us, and we export US built Colorados to them.

It's nice to want to be completely isolationist as you're seeming to advocate. Then we won't have to worry about making great cars.... just good enough for the home market, just like the 70s & 80s.

However, that's pretty much a death sentence in the car world today.

Edited October 1, 2006 by guionM

[Cory Wolfe]

Guion has a brain and uses it. Some should follow.

[CaddyXLR-V]

And I think Japan just spent billions on missile defense systems from none other than the USA. Everything is global now. Any business that doesn't realize, and take advantage of that, is doomed.

[ocnblu]

I don't care if it's made in Australia. It needs to look like a Pontiac.

[hyperv6]

What is the point of arguing the styling since no one here reall knows what we are going to see. Lets argue this point after Chicago.At this point lets all just be glad Pontiac is getting a RWD Euro like performance sedan that may really be on the same page as a BMW. Think of it as a CTSV at a Pontiac price. John D worked for years for a car like this and GM finally approves it. This is the car the 73 Grand Am, 85 STE and 97 SSEI all wanted to be and never were. As for where it is built get over it. It comes down to cost and where the money goes. GM needs to build where they can maximize cost and if the unions will not let it happen here it will happen else where. We live in a world market now and the unions need to unerstand the good old days are gone as the work goes to the lowerst bidder. Harsh but ture as only the strong survive in the real world.Also The differance between GM , Toyota and Honda is the money for GM comes back here in the end as it is a American company unlike the others the other who try to claim to be.

[razoredge]

No ! 10 % of you live in the "global world", the rest of us need to live, work, and survive here in "just" America. We pay tax's in American, we buy our food in America, we buy our over inflated houses in America, we pay outragous insurances for America, we work half again as many hours............in America.

"Hardly team spirit" ? "Has a brain" ?

The Aussies will be fine building their cars and driving them in Australia. My attitude wont hurt them one bit.

However your attitude has been proven to hurt Americans, the place is a friggin mess but the 10 percent cant see it, so its not true.

"hardly team spirit" give me a break, spread your lube somewhere else

"1. Automation. It has taken more jobs in the automotive assembly line than transporting production overseas."

So laughable, first of all, anyone who knows anything about the world and history knows automation has replaced men. Its a givin as man looks for faster, easier ways. BUT, what you are saying is because automation has replaced men, its also OK to replace the rest of our men with foreigners.........yea, that using ones brain alright.........great team spirit too

"2. Efficiency."

yep, thats why Flint will be producing the Australian sourced DOHC V6. From many attitudes around this place, I can only wonder if that pisses you "team players" off. So are you team players or simply wall street investors..........they are our best "team players" always looking out for our fellow countrymen

"3. costs Today, those 3 are retired, and GM has to pay their health care costs in addition to a pension. The only way they can do it is to have 1 person doing their job today, and cut other costs whereever they can. As those people die out, GM's health care burden becomes lighter since it has fewer employees."

What logic are you using here ? clueless logic ? "those three" are still recieving their held and invested pay package. Its a burdon on GM because they no longer employ the thousands of replacement workers that would be having a portion of their pay "held" for investment and contributation to our corrupt healthcare system. The problem is we only have that "1 worker", instead of the 5 we would have if Japan never built plants in this country and our entire driving population was driving N American built cars....................but just looky here, you can so easily sway the thought of our youth into believe the world will be better off as soon as "those people die out"................more of that team spirit ? No forsight as to what our vast population of children are going to do for employment over the course of thier lives ? Someday whatever it is so many Americans are doing now exploiting this "global" BS will no longer be needed.......then what ? The jobs will be gone and so will the exploition of them..............housing and infrastructure until we look like China ?

4. Finally, broader sales. The US car market is saturated. The only way to keep our people working is to sell to other countries. That's the goal of free trade. Take China for instance. It has 1 billion people. Even if only 10% of the population can afford cars, that's already a market that's bigger than here in the US. Closer to the subject, Australia exports Aussie built cars to us, and we export US built Colorados to them.

Broader sales = of foreign souced products

Car market is saturated = with foreign sourced products

"The only way to keep our people working is to sell to other countries. That's the goal of free trade." = then why have we lost so many manufactureing jobs if the goal was to "keep our people working"

Take China for instance = yea, lets take China, do you think they would be stupid and careless enough about themselves to buy anything from the US ? Really Thats a right reserved for Americans that buy into the nonsence that the 10% sell them. Wonder why China bought all the recycled steel ? Let me guess, so they could go "global" and send the steel and steel sourced manufactureing jobs back to N America ? Your right, China has been very good to our American junk yard employees...........I see them building Mansions on the hill........I just cant wait until 10% of the Chinese can afford cars......we will be seeing even higher wealth in the scrap yard business. Recyclers Forever !

I could go on and on, swiss cheese has so many holes but far less than the "global will improve America, cheez"

America better hope housing and the mass population boom continues because its the only thing keeping common man working 1.5 weeks per week and far too busy and wiery to have time to call you all on your bill of goods.

All those billions on weapons of mass destruction surely is a positive side to the "team spirit" thing..........the US sure has done well occupying its time, money and resources building and selling weaponry to countries and then a few decades later going in and taking them all back via force. Makes us look busy anyhow, right ? Thats why the outside "global" world loves we Americans so much..............ey ?

[sciguy_0504]

moot, not mute

199697[/snapback]

Thanks. I rarely use the expression and now I know why.

[MisterMe]

Hardly team spirt.

Holden IS GM.

Holden is a joint venture which is partially ownd by GM.

If the Commodore is so important to GM in the US, why sell it as a Pontiac? The only objection posted here is selling the car as a Pontiac. Sell it as a Holden and there is no controversy.

This car is supposed to hit our shores in February 2007. Between now and then, there is barely enough time to load the cars on the ships, let alone revise the engineering and styling. The faux Pontiac grill and left-hand drive are as much Pontiac as we can hope for.

We need the car here.

Um-m-m, no. The Sun rises in the East every morning without the Holden Commodore in the US. This is not a need but a desire on the part of Holden management and Bob Lutz to find a market for the Commodore.

Those supporting of this move are standing up a lot of straw men.

In the average US-built car, there are only $2000-$3000 in labor and raw materials. Cars are transported uninsured because the insurance is more expensive than the cars. But accepting for the sake of argument that the root of all American automaker problems is the hourly worker, this is not what the Holden move is all about. It is about automotive engineering. Holden has a new state-of-the-art engineering center in Austrailia and it needs work. This move is aimed, not at the heart of US hourly workers, but at the heart of salaried US automotive engineers.

But, economic issues are secondary to the emotional ones. You cannot sell a good product or even a great product when its potential customers are turned-off by peripheral issues. Coca Cola learned that lesson in the mid-1980s when it introduced "New Coke." It spent $1 millions developing the new formula for its flagship soda. The new formula beat the old in all blind taste tastes. And Coca Cola--new or old--is just sugar water, so what difference did it make? Well, it made a huge difference. When the new formula went on sale, the reaction was negative and it was loud. The buying public rejected New Coke everywhere [except Detroit]. Coca Cola was forced to restore the old formula as Coca Cola Classic.

Now, what does this have to do with GM? GM has a different relationship with its customers than do the other auto manufacturers. We tend to focus more on individual brands than the corporation as a whole. We will move up from Chevy to Buick or Pontiac to Cadillac. Even though GMC trucks were virtually identical to Chevy trucks, buyers thought that GMC was better and more expensive. There are many GM buyers who stick with one brand for their entire lives.

Bob Lutz built his professional career at Chrysler, not GM. He does not understand this emotional relationship. At Chrysler, you can sell the same model--the Neon--at both Dodge and Chrysler-Plymouth dealers. You can sell American and Japanese cars under the same model name--Dodge Avenger/Chrysler Sebring [American (4 dr)/Japanese (2 dr)]. You can do these things at Chrysler because nobody cares.

Not so GM. Just as an example: When GM shifted the Oldsmobile Bravada to Buick to become the Buick Ranier, it did not just rip off the Oldsmobile rocket oval and slap on the Buick tri-shield. GM extensively re-engineered the car to convert it into a Buick.

There may be some here who object to this move out of stupidity. However, most of us want GM to put as much care into the Pontiac's Grand Prix/Bonneville replacement as it put into the Buick Ranier.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If you wonder why Saturn is getting new product, and Pontiac isn't, just read some of the comments on this thread. No one will complain the Saturn NEEDS to look like a Saturn, NEEDS to be styled here, NEEDS to be built here, NEEDS to fit their specific image of how a car for that brand should look.

I would be happy if it looked like the Commodore with a Pontiac grill. Does a 93 Grand Am fit Pontiacs image? An Aztek? a G6? A Torrent? What exactly does a Pontiac look like?

[ocnblu]

Compare the current Grand Prix to the new Commodore. Yes, the GP is not perfect, package-wise... but it looks like a Pontiac. The Commodore does not. Look at the G6 coupe. Look at the Solstice. Those are Pontiacs. I feel like Captain Obvious here.

[ZL-1]

Does a 93 Grand Am fit Pontiacs image? An Aztek? a G6? A Torrent? What exactly does a Pontiac look like?

199865[/snapback]

Very interesting questions, since all these cars are totally different from one another and send completely different messages of what Pontiac's brand and design identities are!

I say get the Commodore to the US market! I want to see the car and the US is way closer than Australia

[CaddyXLR-V]

Compare the current Grand Prix to the new Commodore.  Yes, the GP is not perfect, package-wise... but it looks like a Pontiac.  The Commodore does not.  Look at the G6 coupe.  Look at the Solstice.  Those are Pontiacs.  I feel like Captain Obvious here.

199903[/snapback]

I stopped liking the grand Prix in 2004, but I love the previous model. In fact, I own a 98 GTP coupe. I would rather have the un-Pontiac like Commodore, than a 2004 and up Grand Prix. I would rather have the Commodore than pretty much all of Pontiacs current line up. And the 2004 and up Grand Prix is a disaster. 55% are fleet sales. Bring on the Commodore. The G6 coupe looks like an Infiniti to me, I don't like it. The sedan looks better, but not much. The Torana and Commodore blow both the G6 and Grand Prix away, styling wise. 4 out of 5 cars I have owned in my life have been Pontiacs. If Pontiac keeps its current trend, my next car wont be a Pontiac. In fact, the only Pontiac I want right now, is a Holden, the GTO. Edited October 1, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V

[ocnblu]

Well then, hold your car up as pure Pontiac. I too love that generation of GP, even with FWD. The hardware, interior and (reportedly) the driving dynamics of the Commodore would fit well as a US-brand GM car, but the exterior styling... sorry bud, I am not giving up on this. It would be invisible over here. Style sells cars. We've seen the Camaro, we know GM still knows how to style a car to fit its brand. They should not give up on Pontiac.

I'm done with this. No way I'm changing my mind, but, as has been pointed out in this thread, we don't have a clue yet what this car will look like. So I will simmer down until I have a real reason to cry foul. I'm just not thinking there's enough time to rebrand this car... rebadge, yes, but not rebrand.

[douglask]

Holden is a joint venture which is partially ownd by GM.

199843[/snapback]

Huh? General Motors Holden Ltd is a 100% owned subsidiary of GM and has been for the past 75 years.

You might be thinking of HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) of which Holden owns something like 25%.

[thegriffon]

GM Holden owns 100% of HSV after the former partner went bankrupt. GM Holden also owns over 50% of GM Daewoo, making it a consolidated subsidiary. GM's main JVs are GM-AvtoVAZ in Russia, and Shanghai-GM in China.

[Robert Hall]

Compare the current Grand Prix to the new Commodore.  Yes, the GP is not perfect, package-wise... but it looks like a Pontiac.  The Commodore does not.  Look at the G6 coupe.  Look at the Solstice.  Those are Pontiacs.  I feel like Captain Obvious here.

199903[/snapback]

The Grand Prix is pretty ugly, though..lumpy around the taillights, wierd headlights, awkward FWD proportions, long overhangs. The only thing that says Pontiac is the grille, really. The Commodore with a Pontiac grille would do fine... it's a much better looking car than the Grand Prix...

I'm not sure what else could change styling-wise to make it say 'Pontiac' more..maybe the taillights? In SS V series trim, it's a pretty sleek and modern package (I'd leave off the wing and front airdam, but make it available, as I know some Pontiac fans like that stuff)..

Edited October 1, 2006 by moltar

[ocnblu]

What I'd like to see is a pronounced "beak" leading into the split grille. Large round foglamps. This car would be a perfect lead-in to intro a new Pontiac "face"... quad stacked headlamps, perhaps, (or even single round elements, like Solstice) with a full-width split grille. I'd like to see a more flowing roofline. I'd like to see coke-bottle sides, last seen on the '97 GP. I'd like to see a fender scallop exactly like the Solstice. I'd like to see "hips", a bit of undulation and widening over the rear wheels, to promote a feeling of power and romance. And since horizontal, ribbed taillamps don't look like they're coming back, a set of high-set taillamps like the Solstice and G6 coupe. Quad, bright exhaust tips. I'd like to see all of this, and it must be clean, like G6 and Solstice, with a rear wing only as a dealer accessory to save the rest of us the embarrassment.

This is my vision of what Pontiac style means. Styling cues that are worth continuing and building upon. I sincerely hope this is the Pontiac of the future.

[enzl]

I can't understand the grief GM could be getting for getting these Zeta boys here in all forms, as quickly as possible.

At the end of the day, a Pontiac beak on a Commodore isn't the worst thing in the world. Anyone here who's complaining about any aspect of that plan is just being picky.

I haven't read anywhere that the appearance of this 'G8' will affect or modify any other RWD plans, including a huge commitment in production & tooling in Oshawa.

So, bring it on! Badge it a Saturn if the purists are so upset.

[MisterMe]

....

So, bring it on! Badge it a Saturn if the purists are so upset.

No, badge it as a Holden. GM has sold Vauxhalls in the US. GM has sold Opels here. If the reports about Commodore are correct, then GM should have no trouble selling Holdens here. Or, am I wrong?

[Robert Hall]

No, badge it as a Holden. GM has sold Vauxhalls in the US. GM has sold Opels here. If the reports about Commodore are correct, then GM should have no trouble selling Holdens here. Or, am  I wrong?

200093[/snapback]

Wouldn't work.. Holden has no history here..do you know how much it would cost to launch a new brand here???