Lutz Talks about Zeta

[Northstar]

From TCC

GM's vice chairman set out to set the record straight on a variety of issues following the Opel reveal on Tuesday. For one thing, he told reporters, the automaker's new rear-drive Zeta platform "is not dead or cancelled." Well, not exactly. The original version was, indeed, scrapped a few months back because "we did a lot of not-smart things…that didn't make business sense. We accepted the delay." As originally planned, GM's Australian subsidiary, Holden, will play the lead in developing the revised Zeta platform. But it is less and less likely that it will be able to export cars based on Zeta, at least to the United States. The Australian dollar's gain on the U.S. dollar "pretty much cancels your profits margin," Lutz lamented, so "exports to the U.S. don't look real promising at this point." But there will still be opportunities for Holden to ship product to other markets, such as the Middle East .

[AAS]

so, this only means we won't be getting our RWD vehicles from down under, not that we won't get any at all... right?!?

[sciguy_0504]

Nope, just terrorist land. People won't be too thrilled about that. Did any company ever consider launching a plant in Africa and heavily using it? I know GM has one in South Africa to produce the H3. I'm pretty sure South African currency (the rand?) is far below value against the USD. Plus, the Aussie dollar is still below the value of the USD.

[wildcat]

So that virtually eliminates a Buick based on the Holden Commodore (like the Chinese Buick Royaume), right? or does it just further delay it, until a U.S. plant that could build Zetas is ready?

[Northstar]

So that virtually eliminates a Buick based on the Holden Commodore (like the Chinese Buick Royaume), right?  or does it just further delay it, until a U.S. plant that could build Zetas is ready?

[post="14884"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think it just means it won't be built in Austrailia.

[VenSeattle]

As Northstar indicated... all this does is state that Zeta vehicles will not be imported from Australia to be sold in the US market. It doesn't rule out Zeta vehicles being built elsewhere or even within the US for the US market. US market Zeta vehicles are still a real possibility. GM just hasn't committed to where the US Zetas will be built. If they did that, it would completely blow any surprise and confirm US plans for Zeta.

[johnnyb]

What's so "global" about a supposed global platform (Zeta), if it only goes to one country? I don't get it... This is like some sort of boat ride, the boat rocks one way, then on the other. When can we get a clear picture? <_<

[VenSeattle]

Zeta is a global platform/architecture that's being primarily developed by Holden. The comments only apply to Australia's ability to export Zeta products. It does not, in any way, give restrictions to where else the Zeta platform can be built.

[knightfan26917]

This sounds as clear as....

...mud.


Er, or something like that....

*shakes head*

Aye....all of this talk/speculation is starting to wear very thin......


Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 31swm/pig valve/pacemaker
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[Guest Josh]

To answer the question of what's the point of a global Zeta? While the vehicle may produced in North America, it will share many parts with its Australian brother. Meaning GM can then purchase more parts at a cheaper price and ship them (cheaper) where need by. That's one glowing thing to keep in mind. The Aura will be the same as its Opel counterpart. However its global in the sense of parts sharing, distribution, etc. That's the key to making something global. Not to build it in North America and ship it to China. But to instead maximize the platform for ultimate profit through parts sharing throughout the world.

[Sixty8panther]

Aye....all of this talk/speculation is starting to wear very thin......

[post="14970"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

At this point even mud seem transparent in comparison. :huh:

[knightfan26917]

At this point even mud seem transparent in comparison.  :huh:

LOL!

Heh...you might be right ;).

[jmore1276]

I believe there is a very strong chance that the Spring Hill Saturn plant is retooling for Zeta as it's set up to be very flexible like that of the Holden plants down under. And since Lambda is being built in Michigan it makes sense for the 08' or so timeline. It's capacity is 400,000 vehicles per year so there could even be other platforms possible. Another possibilty could be the Delaware plant (kappa) which is only at 30% (or so) capacity, but I believe they will just add more kappas in the future....Please bring the Nomad on-line for US GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would beat the crap out of the current mini. :CG_all:

[91z4me]

I believe there is a very strong chance that the Spring Hill Saturn plant is retooling for Zeta as it's set up to be very flexible like that of the Holden plants down under. And since Lambda is being built in Michigan it makes sense for the 08' or so timeline. It's capacity is 400,000 vehicles per year so there could even be other platforms possible. Another possibilty could be the Delaware plant (kappa) which is only at 30% (or so) capacity, but I believe they will just add more kappas in the future....Please bring the Nomad on-line for US GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It would beat the crap out of the current mini.  :CG_all:

[post="41377"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Spring Hill is getting epsilon crossovers. Sigma lite/US Zeta is most likely headed for Oshwa.

[cmattson]

It sounds like Holden will take the lead in engineering/designing the platform. I'm all for it. How long has Holden been building RWD vehicles? Plus it gives GM a fresh perspective. Take a look how exciting Opel designs look in comparison to some of the how-hum models we've been seeing from GM NA lately.. I think it's a great idea to harness GM's worldly resources. Edited November 11, 2005 by cmattson

[buickguy]

It should be the Buick Velite convertible.

[ehaase]

My guess is that the U.S. will not get the Zeta to be built in Australia. My understanding is that production processes for Australia don't work in North America, so I don't think that Zeta will be built in N.A. We may get a cheaper version of the Sigma platform for a new Camaro and Chevrolet sedan and perhaps a Buick or Pontiac. But probably not before the 2009 model year - or later. You guys are going to have let the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Impala all recently introduced to run their course. Edited November 10, 2005 by ehaase

[turbo200]

I don't consider this the final word on whether or not we will get the Australian Zeta exported to our shores as something. More inconclusive talk.

[prototype66]

PERHAPS THIS IS THE NA VERSION OF ZETA U.S.. THE BUICK LAUSANNE/CHEVY CAPRICE?

Edited November 10, 2005 by prototype66

[turbo200]

Nope, that's just a Chinese W-body testing set to be released soon as an '07. So far there are no confirmed plans to bring Australian Zeta here, however, things shift so quickly at GM, and we've all heard recent rumblings of sedans for Buick and Pontiac, possible one being a VE based sedan (Australian Zeta), and finally Lutz gives the strength of the Australian dollar as the only reason not to bring it here, that could change quickly. Edited November 10, 2005 by turbo200

[guionM]

Zeta is just a name... or better yet, a process.

Zeta is more the ability to build a variety of RWD models off of a set of components, than it is a particular car line.

Holden's Zeta is based off the VE, ours will be based off the Sigma. Suspension will be pretty much common to both (ours and Holden's).... remember, it's ALL being done by Holden.

It's cheaper to modify our Sigma for these "lower cost" components than it is to create all new engineering to produce VE structrual parts here. Besides, the Sigma structure is "newer".

The VE based Zeta is likely going to be shortlived.

As Holden comes into GM-North America's "system", it's likely thier "Zeta" will be replaced with ours.

Hope that clears things up. ;) Edited November 11, 2005 by guionM

[cjtmet]

Zeta is just a name... or better yet, a process.

Zeta is more the ability to build a variety of RWD models off of a set of components, than it is a particular car line.

Holden's Zeta is based off the VE, ours will be based off the Sigma. Suspension will be pretty much common to both (ours and Holden's).... remember, it's ALL being done by Holden.

It's cheaper to modify our Sigma for these "lower cost" components than it is to create all new engineering to produce VE structrual parts here. Besides, the Sigma structure is "newer".

The VE based Zeta is likely going to be shortlived.

As Holden comes into GM-North America's "system", it's likely thier "Zeta" will be replaced with ours.

Hope that clears things up. ;)

[post="41630"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wrong. The VE Zeta is a completely new design that has not even been released. The sigma architecture is how old? 5years?

I think the delays are due to cost issues. The VE has an expensive 5 link rear suspension system. I suspect the delay is so that the platform can be reengineered to accept a simpler/cheaper rear suspension for us in Chevies (what sort of rear suspension does the Mustand have ? solid rear axil).

The VE based Zeta is expected to have an 8-10 year life. Holden was designing the VE before GM globalised. When GM globalised the VE it became the Zeta architecture and the US worked on designing US cars of the basic architecture.

On a side note it would not surprise me if GM starts building the GTO in the US. The monaro has offically stopped production however the US GTO is continuing on sale. I guess that Holden had to stop production of the Monaro to retool and re-organise the factory for the VE Zeta. So why not ship the tooling to the US and start GTO production there rather than just scrapping the tooling.

[mtdavid]

My guess, Zeta (and many other platforms) to be built in CHINA, this way GM makes tons of money. It won't happen overnight but in a few more model years.

[SimonDavid]

Ive heard VE described in Australia as basically the old Opel V platform, updated alot, with sigma suspension hung off it. So very much a "pre-globalisation" project the suspension has commonality with sigma but the underlying body structure is completely different and it is not interbuildable with sigma Also because it was developed in Australia with the local market in mind the engineering would have focussed on Holden's local supply base, which is not very world - competitive, expecially as the aussie dollar has strengthened alot since then

[prototype66]

Nope, that's just a Chinese W-body testing set to be released soon as an '07. So far there are no confirmed plans to bring Australian Zeta here, however, things shift so quickly at GM, and we've all heard recent rumblings of sedans for Buick and Pontiac, possible one being a VE based sedan (Australian Zeta), and finally Lutz gives the strength of the Australian dollar as the only reason not to bring it here, that could change quickly.

[post="41609"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I hope the NA Cap has much better sheet metal than that one. I personally don't care to much for that subdue subtle bland type of design.I don't mean flashy "LOOK AT MEEE!!!" designs either ,but, not a big Imp .IMO Edited November 11, 2005 by prototype66

[91z4me]

Wrong.  The VE Zeta is a completely new design that has not even been released.  The sigma architecture is how old?  5years? 

I think the delays are due to cost issues.  The VE has an expensive 5 link rear suspension system.  I suspect the delay is so that the platform can be reengineered to accept a simpler/cheaper rear suspension for us in Chevies (what sort of rear suspension does the Mustand have ? solid rear axil).

The VE based Zeta is expected to have an 8-10 year life.  Holden was designing the VE before GM globalised.  When GM globalised the VE it became the Zeta architecture and the US worked on designing US cars of the basic architecture.

On a side note it would not surprise me if GM starts building the GTO in the US.  The monaro has offically stopped production however the US GTO is continuing on sale.  I guess that Holden had to stop production of the Monaro to retool and re-organise the factory for the VE Zeta.  So why not ship the tooling to the US and start GTO production there rather than just scrapping the tooling.

[post="41641"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do you know who GuionM is? He isn't wrong. VE's unibody is based on the current V-car's structure. Sure it will have a lot of differences but it is based on the V-car. The Sigma structure is newer, stiffer, and has better harmonics. It has been praised by the press quite a bit, go drive a GTO and CTS-V back to back and you will feel the difference.

Your right on a lot of things Holden was working on some things for thier current V-car replacement when GM global stepped in and wanted to take the program global. GMNA had a lot of things that they needed the car to do to fit into the US system and a lot of things were added to the Australian Zeta, weight is going up big. The rear suspension of the Aus Zeta is basically a Sigma one with aluminum components replaced by steel. The front suspension may be a more advanced strut design, that is the rumor on what the US Zeta is getting. The US Zeta and Aus Zeta will probably share most if not all suspension components, AWD sysem also.

Your right that GM NA did spend some math and time on using Aus Zeta in the US but not to long. The decision to not use Holden's Zeta was made over a year before we heard about it. In that time GM went back to working on what they were working on before: a cheaper Sigma.

As far as the current GTO being made in the US, sorry but it doesn't meet new air bag standards. The current GTO, unless GM spends money getting it certified, can't be built after next September. Even IF GM did want to continue the GTO and they wanted the tooling here there are other problems. The V-car tooling is quite extensive it builds a multitude of cars off the same basic chassis. Also the Holden plant builds a number of components, including steering knuckles, in the same factory as the plant. The tooling is also pretty high volume, 250k per year if I remember right. Another thing to consider is China. China has a current Zeta now and it is only 1-2 years old. It is likely that the current V-car tooling could move to Korea and the Chinese and Korean markets could be satsified by that one plant.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I've read that the next Impala is being tested on both rear-drive and front-drive platforms in Motor Trend. Maybe Mr. Rear-Drive still has a chance, you suppose?

[jmore1276]

What would be so bad about a solid axle rear end? Muscle Cars were built for drag racing in the first place. If we're talking about Chevelle's and Camero's...why should they handle like a sports car? GM already has a few...Corvette, Solstice and GTO. Many truck owners today are truck owners because GM did away with the BOF RWD cars. I don't here many Truck Owners (except "little girls") complaining about the solid axle rear end being too stiff? I want a car with some horepower and muscle....not a caddilac with a set of 50's on the back. And if you are going to race it, the fewer parts to break the better. Give me a solid locking diff. rearend any day down the stright away. If you want a muscle Car to handle like a vette...than you don't want a Muscle Car. Maybe that's why the Stang is selling like hot cakes and the GTO (aside from it's ugly styling ) isn't...'cause the GTO is not a Muscle Car.

[Flybrian]

Mustang outsells the GTO because...
1) They're cheaper.
2) They have more equipment/powertrain variety.
3) Hertz exclusively rents them and other fine Ford products.
4) There are simply more of them to purchase.

GTO was never intended to be a high-volume car. The UAW, NHTSA, and their country of origin virtually predetermined that.

Perhaps why a future Chevy muscle car would lack a solid rear axle is because 95% of people who would buy them do not race them beyond whuppin' up on a 'Stang or Supra at a traffic signal.

[Chazman]

What would be so bad about a solid axle rear end? Muscle Cars were built for drag racing in the first place. If we're talking about Chevelle's and Camero's...why should they handle like a sports car? GM already has a few...Corvette, Solstice and GTO. Many truck owners today are truck owners because GM did away with the BOF RWD cars. I don't here many Truck Owners (except "little girls") complaining about the solid axle rear end being too stiff? I want a car with some horepower and muscle....not a caddilac with a set of 50's on the back.  And if you are going to race it, the fewer parts to break the better. Give me a solid locking diff. rearend any day down the stright away. If you want a muscle Car to handle like a vette...than you don't want a Muscle Car. Maybe that's why the Stang is selling like hot cakes and the GTO (aside from it's ugly styling ) isn't...'cause the GTO is not a Muscle Car.

[post="42460"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's Camaro. And it sounds like you want to buy a truck.

[91z4me]

It's Camaro. And it sounds like you want to buy a truck.

[post="42500"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No he sounds like he wants GM to make a 1970s care exactly the way it came back then but to make it now.

[jmore1276]

No he sounds like he wants GM to make a 1970s care exactly the way it came back then but to make it now.

[post="42503"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Pretty much...but with the better qualit of today...and of course not BOF. As much as I prefered those to the unibodies of the 70's.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

well wasnt the "camero" one of the best handling cars in its day?

[91z4me]

well wasnt the "camero" one of the best handling cars in its day?

[post="42900"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No but the CamAro was.