MICROSOFT

[regfootball]

here

[MGZ06]

Of coarse. . . what's not going to china? It's sad to say but it will be too late to do anything once evryone gets there head out of their ass. . . China will out do the U.S within 5 years the way things are going.

[VenSeattle]

A personal friend of mine had his entire team at Microsoft relocated to China last summer. His team was redeployed into the local work force (meaning they stayed on pay roll while they applied/interviewed for open positions within MS), but it's still a traumatic experience on their families and very depressing to see happen.

[lakefire]

I'm in favor of outsourcing. Probably wouldn't happen as much if there weren't unions driving up the costs of labor.

[CARBIZ]

As was discussed on another thread here, nobody's job is safe anymore. Everyone should be constantly upgrading to make themselves the best they can be and keep your contacts and feelers open at all times. A friend of mine worked for Equifax for 22 years, then suddenly the entire company outsourced itself to IBM 22 years! He got a nice package and shown the door. At his age (late 40s) good luck! Now Equifax is a shell company but they cut their expenses; boy, did they ever. However, at least the jobs stayed in North America!

[razoredge]

Hurray hurrah Boy I wish all jobs went to China, maybe we could have the Chinese run our Government too. Hurray hurrah maybe we could do on line docterin with the turks ? Maybe we could put up some satelites so they could build our buildings and bridges via remote from Afganistan. Hurray hurrah boy I feel better already that will teach em, those dirty dogs, who the hell do they think they are just because you are born in this country doesnt entitle you to work supplying products or services for this country you stupid little pagen serfs Sing praise to the puppet masters my little sheeple oh boy !

[Sixty8panther]

Great. *sigh* :( Bill Gates should move there and live in the great wall.

[CARBIZ]

Bill Gates is laughing all the way to the bank. Everyone brags that computers have come such a long way. Really? I got my first computer in 1987. It was an IBM PS2. It cost me $7,000 for 1 20 meg hard drive and less than a meg of RAM. PCs were "plug and pray" in 1987 and they are still today. This computer cost me $2,000 3 years ago. I just spent $800 on upgrades and nothing EVER works the way it is supposed to. There are days when I just wished I had an old IBM Selectric typewriter! If GM built cars the way Intel, MS, HP, etc. build computers - well, I am sure you get the idea. A tune up would cost a quarter of the price of the car because you'd have to replace the engine!!! As far as I am concerned, they should send them ALL to China!

[Cremazie]

Yeah, and Bill Gates cares about america too!

[razoredge]

Okay. Your F-150 starts on fire and you need to have it fixed. You put your truck on a pallet and have it shipped by boat to China where a crew of highly skilled $3/hr workers will replace the cruise control. They boat it back and 3-months later you're out $40,000.00 and three months without your vehicle.

You need your lawn mowed. You have your sod ripped up and flown to china where it will be sent through a large factory where a machine will mow it down to putting green height. A week later it will be flown back and reinstalled.

Your house needs new siding. You have your whole house uninstalled from the foundation and shipped China. There, siding will be applied like a large, vinyl shrink wrap, and several hundred children that should be in school will lovingly cut the excess from the windows and door ways. Your house will be boated back and reinstalled.

[post="15384"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I like this guy ! B) Edited September 17, 2005 by razoredge

[razoredge]

Just think of all the work for the Chinese merchant shippers ! and I think to myself....what a wonerfull world

[regfootball]

will they make the White Castles in China too?

[razoredge]

one stop shopping, internet via ocean barge who could ask for anything more hooray hoorah

[regfootball]

well, maybe there should be a 'boat unloading and customs services fee' imposed by our government

[razoredge]

Well that would be up to the Chinese, remember we are going to subcontract our political positions to the Chinese as well. This way here we would be maintaining a fair trade standard as well as keeping a level playing field......in the interest of all Americans....of course

[lakefire]

here is the concept that people against outsourcing don't understand. The jobs that are going overseas for the most part are ones that are labor/time intensive. IE programming code, assembling little toys / electronics / etc. These are jobs that no one wants to do and get paid $6/hour to do. Because of outsourcing products are less expensive and people can spend their money on other things like service based products. They can now afford to pay someone $50/week to manage their lawn or $150/month to get a pedicure, etc. Essentially what outsourcing is doing is turning manual labor jobs into service based jobs. Here is a sample example of how it works. Ted has $100 of spare money a month. Without outsourcing he pays $80 for a toaster, and $20 for toothpaste. With outsourcing he pays $20 for a toaster, and $5 for toothpaste. Now he has $75 to spend other things he enjoys like getting his eyebrows waxed. Anyone that is against outsourcing is just too near sited to see the advantages.

[razoredge]

here is the concept that people against outsourcing don't understand.  The jobs that are going overseas for the most part are ones that are labor/time intensive.  IE programming code, assembling little toys / electronics / etc.  These are jobs that no one wants to do and get paid $6/hour to do. 
Anyone that is against outsourcing is just too near sited to see the advantages.

[post="16102"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is alot more going abroad than 6 dollar an hour jobs.
People in favor of outsourceing are too near sighted to see the end results
It takes all kinds to make a world, we need jobs here for everybody. Not everyone wants a manicure and waxed balls.
Not all Americans have expendable moneys. Then much of what is out there is masked by credit cars anyhow.
Not everyone wants to mow lawns and scrub floors for income.
It all depends on which side of the work force you stand on.
It depends on whether you see the world as one big suburb or if you are more grounded to the earth and like the country.
There is so many variables you cant justify such a narrow view of outsourcing and its effects on such a vast and diverse population.

Then we wont get into the facts that these countrys were poor while we were doing good. I think its just a matter of what you can actually see and feel from where you are standing. I choose not to believe and feel that if something doesnt happen to me it can have no negitive effects.

[CARBIZ]

I guess it all depends on whether you are an optimist and believe that the sheer buying power/economic weight of America can drag China and India up to our level and what a wonderful world that would be OR the pessimistic view in which China and India become direct competitors for diminishing world resources (such as oil, steel, etc.) and eventually overtake America in economic strength, due to their sheer population numbers. This is only a fear of mine, not necessarily backed up by any real hard numbers, but where would the world be if 1.2 billion Chinese and 1.4 billion Indians decide they all want refigerators (and they still use freon, boys and girls), microwaves and 2 cars in the driveway? The Chinese middle class is already larger than the entire population of the United States. Anyone thinking, say 25 years into the future, or just the next election/board vote?

[bowtie_dude]

While I'm not in favor of outsourcing, there's not a whole lot that can be done about it. As long as companies can make better profit by employing the Chinese, they will. Thats what a business does, makes money. The only thing that we can do is find jobs in fields that cannot be outsourced. Call-centers, manufacturing, programming are all jobs that are not safe from outsourcing. Makes me glad I changed my major from Computer Science to Management Information Systems. Companies will always need on-site tech support for their employees.

[cmattson]

These are jobs that no one wants to do and get paid $6/hour to do.

Damn straight! I program code for a living. Spent 6 years in college to get my degrees. I'm damn good at what I do -- and I've worked hard, both in the workplace, and in college to get where I'm at. You want to pay me $6/hr?!? The part of the equation you are ignoring is this: as jobs are displaced in America, new jobs are needed to replace them. Unfortunately, jobs are being exported faster than new jobs are being created. This is being compounded by population growth. As jobs are more scarce, the working population must "accept" any job; so there are vitually millions of under-employed workers -- or workers who work 2 or 3 jobs to provide a level of comfort for their families. Now here's the important part: when these jobs are exported, does the cost of the product/service go down proportional to the cost savings gained? HELL NO. As a result, corporations make more and the work force is required to work longer, work harder, be continually re-educated -- all the while those goods and services ge only marginally cheaper. These "cheaper" goods also have the disadvantage of having a lesser life cycle. Ever bought an appliance? The typical life-cycle of an appliance is 5-7 years. My parants have ones that are 20+ years old. You just won't see that today unless you are willing to pay a premium for it. Pay a premium for it? My parents didn't pay a premium for their fridge? It was just a run-of-the-mill appliance. WTF?!? So now, I've got to overpay to get something the level of what my parents paid an average price for? Don't forget that these same corporations will incorporate themselves off-shore, to shift their tax-burdens onto the workforce as well.

How far are you willing to let your quality of life erode? There will always be some impoverished sandbox-nation, or some island-nation that doesn't need a military, doesn't need roads, and whose populations live in campuses or even dirt huts. As their quality of live improves (read: gets more expensive), there will always be another around the corner to take it's place. The US will NEVER be able to complete in this model.

The only winners in this equation are the business owners and the shareholders.

[aaaantoine]

Damn straight!  I program code for a living.  Spent 6 years in college to get my degrees.  I'm damn good at what I do -- and I've worked hard, both in the workplace, and in college to get where I'm at.  You want to pay me $6/hr?!?  The part of the equation you are ignoring is this:  as jobs are displaced in America, new jobs are needed to replace them.  Unfortunately, jobs are being exported faster than new jobs are being created.  This is being compounded by population growth.  As jobs are more scarce, the working population must "accept" any job; so there are vitually millions of under-employed workers -- or workers who work 2 or 3 jobs to provide a level of comfort for their families.  Now here's the important part:  when these jobs are exported, does the cost of the product/service go down proportional to the cost savings gained?  HELL NO.  As a result, corporations make more and the work force is required to work longer, work harder, be continually re-educated -- all the while those goods and services ge only marginally cheaper.  These "cheaper" goods also have the disadvantage of having a lesser life cycle.  Ever bought an appliance?  The typical life-cycle of an appliance is 5-7 years.  My parants have ones that are 20+ years old.  You just won't see that today unless you are willing to pay a premium for it.  Pay a premium for it?  My parents didn't pay a premium for their fridge?  It was just a run-of-the-mill appliance.  WTF?!?  So now, I've got to overpay to get something the level of what my parents paid an average price for?  Don't forget that these same corporations will incorporate themselves off-shore, to shift their tax-burdens onto the workforce as well.

How far are you willing to let your quality of life erode?  There will always be some impoverished sandbox-nation, or some island-nation that doesn't need a military, doesn't need roads, and whose populations live in campuses or even dirt huts.  As their quality of live improves (read: gets more expensive), there will always be another around the corner to take it's place.  The US will NEVER be able to complete in this model.

The only winners in this equation are the business owners and the shareholders.

[post="16634"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well in that case it's time for me to buy up some stocks.

But beyond that, what can we do as citizens of a free nation that is slowly losing its freedom? This is not a hypothetical question. I mean it: what are we supposed to do?

I can think of a number of responses, but in the end, very little of this is in our control.

[CARBIZ]

Cmattson, bringing our grandparents into this doesn't help. My grandfather worked at 3 jobs to keep my grandmother in fur coats and a new car every 2 years! As an aside here, one of the problems with or Society today is our EXPECTATIONS. We expect a house in the suburbs with central a/c, 3 bathrooms, 4 bedrooms, a 2 car garage with 3 cars in the driveway. We EXPECT to winter in Florida, spend 2 weeks at Eurodisney with the kids and spend $150 on a damned pair of Nikes! Consumerism is what is killing us. Did or grandparents vacation in Florida? They were lucky to have one car, one B & W TV (no cable yet), one bathroom - hell, their house, bought in 1953 didn't even come with a lawn or a driveway. And pick up a vintage catalog - a refrigerator in the early '50s was a luxury. Dishwasher? Forget it. Microwave? NOt invented yet. Did anybody even own an air conditioner until, maybe, twenty five years ago? And look at our cars! My grandfather's last car before he dropped dead in 1968 was a Studebaker wagon. No a/c, maybe an AM radio - would be lucky to have power steering and power brakes. Times have changed and so have the jobs. Get an education, learn to market yourself so you can work yourself to death and your wife can live off your life insurance for the next 30 years.

[lakefire]

Well spoken Carbiz -- I won't repeat what you said about standards. I agree with you about China and India, but I figure they are at least 50 years behind us. Business is a complex machine that you can't pretend to understand by reading articles in the media. You must study it for years and live it / work it as well to truely understand how it works. That's why you will rarely find an economist that is against free trade and outsourcing.

Unfortunately, jobs are being exported faster than new jobs are being created.  This is being compounded by population growth.

Can you back up your statements with facts. One can argue that when outsourcing hit it's peak I would reckon that the unemployment rate was at the lowest. What were the unemployment rates in the 30's when everything was kept in America?

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutp...ame=LN_cpsbref3
(past 10 years)
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet
(since 1948)

The time that unemployment was highest in the near future was when there was a lot of government regulation and programs. It was Regean that saved us from that recession with his trickle down programs and less business regulations.

See, when businesses make more money they can grow and expand. When they grow and expand they MUST hire new people. If you prevent businesses from making money they MUST cut costs (ie fire people). I never understood why people think that businesses making money is a bad thing.

You can make individual senarios all day long, but looking on a national level these things are good for the economy: lower taxes, free trade, less regulations, outsourcing (in all forms).

[cmattson]

I agree with you: when businesses grow, they must hire more people. Who is to say those jobs created will be US jobs? I'm not bringing grandparents into this at all. I'm only looking back one generation -- heck, not even a generation. I'm looking back 25 years ago. You could buy something and expect it to last. You certainly aren't getting that with a majority of your purchases today; whether it be appliances, clothing, VCR's, or darn near anything else. Everything is disposable. In order to get anything halfway reliable, you must pay a premium. Not too long ago, it wasn't like that. I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

[razoredge]

Well spoken Cmattson We are only at the beginning of this thing theres alot more outsourcing on its way, unless people smarten up across the board. How anybody can be in favor of it or promote it is beyond me, perhaps they have much to gain. Our grandmothers and mothers didnt need to work They raised us - but dont mention them ? So the microwave and better AC operations were invented. We also ran a space program and some serious Military off our Grandfathers, Fathers and American businesses Taxes. but dont mention our Grandparents because they didnt have a microwave ? Im pretty sure my Grandfather had a refig and freezer as well as one of the first color TV's in the family, he had a good GE job -die setter - so all the latest inventions meant alot to him. Drove new Newports every four years. Did carpentry and concrete work around the community for a little extra plus entertainment. Retired at 65 but continued to work cheap for entertainment well into his 80's restoring old houses for a local realtor. Retired permantly at age of 93. His last car was a 82 New Yorker which I now have. His last project in his early 90's (not that he did the whole thing now) was an addition to the local fire department that is named in his honor for his lifetime of dedication to the community as well as board member and fire department when he was much younger. He remembered the depression really well and marveled at change and innovation. One innovation he did not marvel at was the destruction of the country that his generation and others helped to build. Outsourceing had begun by early 80's and I remember all to well how hard it was to get a job, Schenectady was a GE town "Electric City" ALCO (American Locomotive) that early downsizing outsourceing put a crimp on our local economy. That was why work was a tuff find "prior" to Regan. So perhaps Ive seen too much ? So I shouldnt mention it ? OK , well I did anyhow. I will always support keeping all types of jobs within our country for the vast varity of humans being born each and everyday. Why wouldnt I ?

[razoredge]

"you all want cheap and inexpensive products and a vast varity of toys" how many times have we heard that. My father had one Refrig which I got when he finally bought a newer one with larger freezer One TV upgraded later for a color One Sterio, One Vacume cleaner "Electrolux", we are on or 3rd in 15 years and its blowing dust out as fast as you vacume, one toaster, tablesaw, lathe, all the typical shop tools, most are still working in my shop. They didnt run around like chickens with their heads cut off, when both my Grandfather and my Father were alive they did not understand why all I ever did was work. Then now some want to say "get an education" OK Ill ignore the insult that I dont have skills or knowledge we've already beat that to hell. Ill ask this instead, how in the hell do I (anyone) pay my (anyone) bills support my (anyone) family while getting this "education" without loosing the house and the first 2.5 decades of my(anybody) back breaking accomplishments ? I think its easy to arm chair what someone else should do when you (anyone) doesnt have to do it themselfs. Im only trying to open some eyes to what its like on the other side of this "lets get rid of blue collar working class" "get an education" "get some skills" all terms that flow from the tongues way to easily. I actually never though of white collar work as the only thing "skilled." In fact quite the opposite. Its so arrogantly thrown around that word "skill" these days. Seems others have gotten their hands on it and perverted it.

[Cory Wolfe]

Hmm... Maybe Microsoft will finally make a non-crappy computer, now. :huh: Anyways, I'm against outsourcing, but maybe its necessary. Lakefire has made many points about this. Makes sense, too. So...

[bowtie_dude]

Hmm... Maybe Microsoft will finally make a non-crappy computer, now. :huh:

Anyways, I'm against outsourcing, but maybe its necessary. Lakefire has made many points about this. Makes sense, too. So...

[post="16925"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Too bad Microsoft doesn't make computers. :P

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... You know what I mean: Windows and such. And it all sucks compared to Apple. :D